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Tags general discussion , holocaust , holocaust denial , World War II history

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Old 8th June 2015, 02:59 PM   #121
CORed
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Originally Posted by cultsmasher View Post
There are many conspiracies out there. That the U.S. was behind the 9-11 attacks, the moon landing being faked, the earth being 6000 years old, etc. To the best of my ability to judge, what I am going to tell you isn't one of those crackpot conspiracies. Keep in mind a couple old sayings. "In war, truth is the first casualty" and "History is written by the victors."

About a year ago, I ran across something interesting on the internet. You can see it too by entering into your browser, "Old Red Cross documents that list concentration camp deaths." You should be able to find some old Red Cross documents that say that only about 271,000 Jews died in Nazi "concentration camps." Not 6 million. Diging around a little, I saw that these documents were apparently classified and buried in some archive for decades. They were declassified and released sometime in the 70's. From that standpoint, it would seem that holocaust deniers did have a leg to stand on.

Then a few monts ago, at a political forum I heard about a documentary that can be seen for free on the internet. It's called, "Adolf Hitler: The greatest story NEVER told." It was overly long. Six hours long in fact. It took me three or four days to watch it all. But here and there throughout it, I discovered information that was amazing. The holocaust was indeed largely a hoax! It is incredible the degree to which the American people have been lied to! Almost every night somewhere in TV, they have some show on about the supposedly "evil" Nazis and the atrocities they supposedly committed. It's all a bunch of lying propaganda horse"poop"!

Don't believe it? Look up the old Red Cross documents I mentioned. Watch the documentary I mentioned. Do what the makers of the documentary invite you to do at the end of it. Look up the facts for yourself.
So, Hitler was slandered as the murderer of six million Jews when He murdered a mere 271,000. What a travesty!
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Old 8th June 2015, 04:19 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Ray Brady View Post
Did the Nazis invite them in as observers?

Actually, yes. The Nazis invited in the Red Cross and then lied to them about absolutely everything. including setting up a fake camp for them to tour.



Originally Posted by cultsmasher View Post
For Jews in internment camps, war do doubt caused many deaths from disease and starvation.

This begs the question: Why were the Jews in internment camps to begin with?


Originally Posted by cultsmasher View Post
For example, one of the most infamous "death camps" was Buchenwald.

Wrong. Buchenwald, like all camps on German soil, was not a "death camp," and had no gassing facilities. All the death camps were located in Poland.

Still, Buchenwald managed to kill about 25% of its internees. No idea how many who passed through Buchenwald were eventually killed in other camps.


Originally Posted by cultsmasher View Post
Nobody said that Hitler was perfect. But he was a hell of a lot better than Stalin.

That has to be the single weakest defense of anything that I have ever read. The Bubonic Plague killed fewer people than Stalin.
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Old 8th June 2015, 06:13 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
So where is the link to these 'documents'?
Is it just the Americans that were lied to or is it all the rest of the world as well?
I knew two men that were in the forces that relieved two the camps, they were there and saw it.
Were they lairs as well?
My uncle was part of the forces that liberated one of those camps. He still can't talk about it without getting teary. I know he's not a liar.
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Old 8th June 2015, 08:57 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by cultsmasher View Post
Everything I learned about WW II is a lie.
So, there was no European Theater of Conflict?
Germany and Britain were not at war?
V2 rockets never existed?
U-boats didn't sink allied convoys?
There were no D-Day landings?
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Old 9th June 2015, 01:20 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
Here's the document in question:

http://truedemocracyparty.net/wp-con.../auschwitz.jpg

Can anyone read German?
A "beurkundeter Sterbefall", which is what the document speaks of, means there is something like a certificate or other document to verifiy someone's death or their life beforehand, so I take this to mean it's the number of German citizens who died in the camps, since this kind of document from other countries may not be available to the Red Cross in Germany.
The number of German Jews "missing" after the war is 210,000, so 270,000 total German camp deaths seems to be in the right ball park.

Either that, or it's what Halcyon Dayz says. I don't really see another explanation for this.
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Old 9th June 2015, 09:20 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Cultsmasher, do you seriously think your Holocaust denial is anything new?
I'm pretty sure I've seen virtually identical claims from other holocaust deniers in this very thread.
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Old 9th June 2015, 09:49 AM   #127
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The Red Cross claim was discussed. As others have said, it's registered deaths. The vast majority of the killing was not registered.
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Old 9th June 2015, 12:15 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by cultsmasher View Post
Beliz,
I have been banned from about every political and Atheist forum there is. Why? For telling people the truth. I have written many threads at many forums. I have debated many hundreds of people about what I wrote in those threads. Except for one rather flippant thread, nobody has ever sucessfully refuted anything I said in those threads. Why? Because I'm everybody's intellectual superior when it come to the topics I talk about. Some of which dealt with the Jews and what they "deserve." If you want me to bring it up here, why don't you just say, "Why don't you get yourself banned." Believe me, I am an expert on the topic. You don't want to know the truth. Those at this forum almost certainly don't want me to speak it.

You also ask for evidence. Watch the documentary. In the meantime, go to your google browser and enter, "How many Jews were deported under "The Haavara Agreement." About four websites down, you should find a website that asks that very question. It is hosted by "Yahoo, answers." In it, they have what they call, "The Best Answer." Read it. But don't stop there, look up the havarra agreement anyplace you like. Just keep in mind that those who want to continue the holocaust fable will no doubt have their own distortions or lies to tell.
My faith in the 'net is partially restored.

Define "Debate," because all I've seen here and elsewhere is posting assertions as fact and refusing to accept documented evidence from reliable sources and embracing crackpots discredited (in some instances) decades ago.

You must inhabit a small pond.

On being 86'd, that I believe.

As opposed to holocaust deniers that are simply attempting in their small way to clear the good name of Adolph Hitler?
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Old 9th June 2015, 12:38 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by cultsmasher View Post
Captain Swoop,
Link link link I have heard others who want to avoid the truth say the same thing. I don't have a link. But try this. Go to the edge of your screen and slide it over. Then open a new browser screen. Enter into it what I suggested. Next, yes they did lie to the rest of the wirld as well. In some countries, you can be thrown in jail for questioning the holocaust. If the holocaust was real, those kinds of extreme measures wouldn't be necessary.

As to the soldiers you mentioned, they may not have been lying. Completely. You see, by the time that camps were being liberated, Germany had the hell bombed out of it. Things were pretty grim for the average German citizen. Do you suppose that those in Jewish internment camps would have fared as well? How would the soldiers know if the dead bodies they found died from something like typhus outbreaks or something else. Just because they found the camps in a certain condition doesn't mean that's the way they always were.

In the documentary I mentioned, they have people who were actually IN prison camps TELLING you that things weren't as bad as they were made out to be. They would have no reason to lie. But for those who for various reason want to maintain the lie of the holocaust, they have zillions of reasons to lie.
How can you say the Holocaust didn't happen? Try explaining this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLAZQyXSx9w
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Old 9th June 2015, 02:30 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by cultsmasher View Post
Captian Swoop,
No. I don't have a link. But if what I suggested doesn't work, type into your browser, "Old Red Cross documents that say that only 271,000 Jews died in concentration camps." That should bring them right up at the top of the list.
That only 271,000 Jews died in concentrations camps might be true.

As a matter of fact, 3 millions of others died from gassing in extermination camps (which are not the same as concentration camps, as you appArently ignore), 1,5 millions died from being shot down by the firing squads of the Einsatzgruppen and of the Ordnungspoliezi in Ukraine, Russia and other East countries, and one more million simply died from starvation and bad treatments in the (mainly Polish) ghettos.

And all this happened out of sight of any red cross responsible.
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Old 9th June 2015, 02:46 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Halcyon Dayz View Post
It talks about be-urkundeten Sterbe-falle.
It means something like "certificated deaths."

I would assume that such would require the name of the victim, and the time, place, and circumstances of the death.
Since most witnesses were murdered most Holocaust victims will never have one. They were recorded as being put on a transport and there the paper trail ends.
Furthermore the document also adds in den einzelnen Konzentrazionslagern, which should be translated as "in the concentrations camps only".

In other words this must be understood as not including the extermination camps (named Vernichtungslagern in German).

With respect to the "be-urkundeten Sterbe-falle" it is clear that this can only concern inmates who had be registered upon entrance in these concentration camps. As we know, Jews dispatched to the gas chambers upon arrival have never been registered and no counts of the deaths has been kept by the nazis (or they have deleted them).
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Old 9th June 2015, 02:53 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
My faith in the 'net is partially restored.

Define "Debate," because all I've seen here and elsewhere is posting assertions as fact and refusing to accept documented evidence from reliable sources and embracing crackpots discredited (in some instances) decades ago.

You must inhabit a small pond.

On being 86'd, that I believe.

As opposed to holocaust deniers that are simply attempting in their small way to clear the good name of Adolph Hitler?
He's not really even doing much of a job of clearing Hitler's name. Even if his premise were true, he has replaced the premeditated murder of ~6,000,000 Jews with the murder through reckless indifference of 275,000. And by his story, it was still murder, even if those deaths were not planned or intended. There was no justifiable reason for rounding those people up and putting in those camps, and having done so, nor for allowing the conditions to get so bad that all those people died. It's still murder, but perhaps it's 2nd degree murder rather than 1st (but if I were prosecuting the case, I'd charge 1st degree).
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Old 9th June 2015, 02:56 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
How can you say the Holocaust didn't happen? Try explaining this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLAZQyXSx9w
The holocaust was probably the best documented crime in history, and most of the documentation was done by the perpetrators.
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Old 9th June 2015, 03:01 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by cultsmasher View Post
Captain Swoop,
I don't know what the plan you speak of is or the reality of it. But the fact is that after WW II, under the "care" of Esienhower, an estimate 1.5 million Greman ex-soldiers died while in the custody of American forces. For Jews in internment camps, war do doubt caused many deaths from disease and starvation. But after the war, American troops weren't lacking for anything. So what was their excuse.
You must make a confusion with the German soldiers who died while in custody of the USSR.

And this figure is still much less than the 3.5 millions of Russian soldiers who died while under the custody of the Wehrmacht. As a matter of fact, 65% of the Soviet PoWs died while Under German custody, 35% of the German PoWs died while under Soviet custody and approximately 1.5% of the German PoW died while under US or British custody.

This 1.5% is clearly not high enough to reach 1.5 millions deaths. You could at least make the effort to get your figures right on that point.
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Old 9th June 2015, 10:17 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
The holocaust was probably the best documented crime in history, and most of the documentation was done by the perpetrators.
And their descendents, to their credit, have preserved the death camps for posterity. Why would Germans build a fake gas chamber at the dachau death camp? To pretend they gassed six million Jews when they didn't? Is that logical?
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Old 10th June 2015, 02:10 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
You must make a confusion with the German soldiers who died while in custody of the USSR.

And this figure is still much less than the 3.5 millions of Russian soldiers who died while under the custody of the Wehrmacht. As a matter of fact, 65% of the Soviet PoWs died while Under German custody, 35% of the German PoWs died while under Soviet custody and approximately 1.5% of the German PoW died while under US or British custody.

This 1.5% is clearly not high enough to reach 1.5 millions deaths. You could at least make the effort to get your figures right on that point.
Presumably the 1.5% includes POWs who died of wounds?

Not to suggest negligence on the part of the Western Allies - as I understand it the Western Allies gave equal medical treatment to Germans as to their own troops.

And, in fact the treatment the German POWs received was better that what the Wehrmacht could have given?

Out of interest, what was the death rate of Western allied POWs in Germany?
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Old 10th June 2015, 03:16 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
Presumably the 1.5% includes POWs who died of wounds?

Not to suggest negligence on the part of the Western Allies - as I understand it the Western Allies gave equal medical treatment to Germans as to their own troops.

And, in fact the treatment the German POWs received was better that what the Wehrmacht could have given?

Out of interest, what was the death rate of Western allied POWs in Germany?
I have in mind a figure around 4% but I cannot find back the source. I however remember that it was for sure higher that the death rate of German PoWs in the hand of the Western Allies.
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Old 11th June 2015, 02:58 AM   #138
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In fact many Italian and German Prisoners remained in the UK after the war. Our local POW camp is now a museum. It is called Eden Camp. Prisoners there were allowed out to work on local farms and some were 'boarded out' to work. thy were allowed in to local towns to visit the cinema.
Very few tried to escape as they knew they were on an island and it would have been almost impossible to get back across the North Sea. A minority of 'hard line' and fanatical Nazi Prisoners were kept in higher security camps away from the other prisoners.
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Old 11th June 2015, 04:41 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
In fact many Italian and German Prisoners remained in the UK after the war. Our local POW camp is now a museum. It is called Eden Camp. Prisoners there were allowed out to work on local farms and some were 'boarded out' to work. thy were allowed in to local towns to visit the cinema.
Very few tried to escape as they knew they were on an island and it would have been almost impossible to get back across the North Sea. A minority of 'hard line' and fanatical Nazi Prisoners were kept in higher security camps away from the other prisoners.
To confirm this:

I used to live in a village called Llangynidr in the Brecon Beacons. The local forester was originally Austrian - he lived just round the corner from me.

He had been a forester in Austria before the war, was captured in the desert and spent time in a POW camp in South Wales. Because of his trade, he worked in the local forestry.

Later in the war he was sent to Canada, but after the end of the war decided to return to Wales rather than Austria, married a local girl and started a successful timber business.

Fascinating guy!
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Old 11th June 2015, 04:46 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
I have in mind a figure around 4% but I cannot find back the source. I however remember that it was for sure higher that the death rate of German PoWs in the hand of the Western Allies.
Given that numbers of Allied POWs were marched around at the end of the war, I'd not be surprised.

But, apparently, the Western allies were the bad guys?

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Old 12th June 2015, 06:37 PM   #141
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Sobibor gas chambers

Came across this:
Quote:
Previously, it had been claimed that there were three, four, or six “gas chambers” at Sobibór—but the September 2014 ‘discovery’ announced that there were now ‘apparently’ eight ‘gas chambers’—this based purely on the number of rooms unearthed in the foundations.

“Photographs of the 2014 excavation results shows an irregular-shaped building with at least seven differing sized rooms,” Winter wrote.

This layout completely contradicts all previous narratives of the Sobibór ‘gas chambers’, which all claimed that the execution chambers worked with a two-door system and floor extensions on either side of the building. These ‘gas chambers’ were, according to the “old” narrative, all the same size (four meters square). On the one side of the ‘gas chambers,’ the Holocaust Storytellers claim, there was a ramp type affair used by the supposed victims to enter the “gas chambers” and, on the other side were supposedly larger doors through which the bodies were removed. As can be seen, the unearthed foundations bear no resemblance to this narrative,” Winter continied.
http://newobserveronline.com/sobibor...ms-researcher/
Now I know only four of those rooms are the gas chambers

Quote:
Freshly uncovered foundations and remains of the walls can be seen in a clearing, the suspected remnants of four gas chambers. Each measures five by seven meters (16 feet by 23 feet) and served as death cells for 70 to 100 people at a time.
http://m.spiegel.de/international/ze...DlACWM61tGRaPw
So do things fit?
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Old 6th July 2015, 07:42 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cultsmasher
Captain Swoop,
I don't know what the plan you speak of is or the reality of it. But the fact is that after WW II, under the "care" of Esienhower, an estimate 1.5 million Greman ex-soldiers died while in the custody of American forces. For Jews in internment camps, war do doubt caused many deaths from disease and starvation. But after the war, American troops weren't lacking for anything. So what was their excuse.
Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
You must make a confusion with the German soldiers who died while in custody of the USSR.

And this figure is still much less than the 3.5 millions of Russian soldiers who died while under the custody of the Wehrmacht. As a matter of fact, 65% of the Soviet PoWs died while Under German custody, 35% of the German PoWs died while under Soviet custody and approximately 1.5% of the German PoW died while under US or British custody.

This 1.5% is clearly not high enough to reach 1.5 millions deaths. You could at least make the effort to get your figures right on that point.
What Cultsmasher is referring to is the work of James Bacque called Other Losses. The book alleges that Eisenhower presided over a regime of terror in the aftermath of World War Ii and systematically starved to death more than a million German POWs. The book has been relentlessly savaged and revealed to be shoddy in terms of scholarship. The book has also been greeted with delight to this day by Neo-Nazis and other Hitler huggers.

Last edited by Agatha; 6th July 2015 at 08:55 AM. Reason: fixed quote tags
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Old 3rd August 2015, 06:46 PM   #143
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Ok is this accurate in any way about the holocaust?
Quote:
On May 4, 1992, court expert Jagschitz discussed the “considerably large ventilators” (“I found
that clearly in Moscow”, page 19 of court transcript; “these enormous ventilators that vent air out of
the mortuaries”, “rather there were considerably large ventilators at least in crematoria II and III”,
page 34 of court transcript).
These ventilators had engines of 3.5 hp. Given a necessary vacuum capacity of 6 inches watercolumn
and considering the length of the conduit cross-sections, conduit course (numerous rightangle
diversions), interior surfaces of the conduit (undressed brick, wood) and the nature of the vent
openings (coarsely punched metal), this suffices for a maximum of ten exchanges of air in the ‘gas
chamber’ per hour.
Considering the ventilation time of 30 minutes, this means that the concentration of hydrogen
cyanide may then have dropped to a minimum of approximately 1/100 of the initial concentration.
But since the method of alleged introduction of the Zyklon B from above means that the evaporation
of hydrogen cyanide cannot be simply ‘shut off’, as it were (that works only in the American
gas chambers using hydrogen cyanide generators), the evaporation would continue and at a greater
rate than before, since the less than atmospheric pressure created in ventilation (lowering of the
boiling-point) promotes evaporation. This means that until almost right before the end of the evaporation
process – which can take from a few to many hours, depending on the ambient temperature
and humidity – the ventilators with their capacity of only 3.5 hp would have had to perform a Sisyphean
task without succeeding in lowering the concentration below the lethal level.
The question how the ventilators really worked, given a chamber crowded to bursting with dead
bodies and given the air intake and exhaust configuration, is a matter that still needs to be settled by
ventilation experts, for the used air was exhausted from below even though heating and increased
moisture content caused by the presence of the victims would have made it lighter than the incoming
fresh air. Another problem is the fact that the air intake and exhaust openings are located too
close to each other – 6.5 feet apart on the same wall, vs. a distance of 24.5 feet from the opposite
wall of the room blocked by the dead bodies. This means that there would be a ‘short-circuit’ of air
in the chamber.

Given an initial hydrogen cyanide concentration of 5 g/m3, complete ‘shut-off’ of gas production,
five air exchanges per half hour and ideal ventilation conditions, the concentration of hydrogen cyanide
remaining will be only 50 mg/m3 after half an hour and it will be safe to enter the gas chamber
without a gas mask. But since Zyklon B continues to outgas for hours, entering the gas chamber after
30 minutes and without protective clothing as claimed would be fatal. Even gas masks equipped
with a special filter J, guaranteeing safety for 30 minutes, would be inadequate under such conditions.
Furthermore, the location of the air intake and exhaust vents on the roof ridge, approximately
15 feet apart,27 begs the question as to what would happen whenever there was a breeze from the
exhaust vent towards the intake opening. Again, it would be a matter of a ‘short-circuit of air’. No
self-respecting German engineer worth his epaulets would design a ‘gas chamber’ this poorly.
The ventilator for the dissecting room and the rooms for washing up and for laying out the corpses
– all of them situated above-ground and with windows – had a capacity of 1 hp, while that for the
much larger mortuary 1 (‘gas chamber’) had 3.5 hp. As Carlo Mattogno has shown, the performance
of all air extractions systems of the different rooms in crematoria II and III in Birkenau (oven
room, mortuary 1, mortuary 2, dissecting and washing room) was considered to be nearly the same:
11,5 to 16,6 air exchanges per hour.28 And Mattogno provided evidence that this was the standard
power required for morgues according to contemporary German expert literature,29 whereas air extraction
systems for hydrogen cyanide gas chambers (delousing chambers) required at least 72 air
exchanges per hour.30 Thus, mortuary 1 was certainly not suited to exchange the given volume of
air, enriched with 5 g/m3 (according to Pressac,31 it was even 12 g/m3!) and within the space of time
(30 minutes) claimed in Holocaust literature (eyewitness reports), nor was it suited to exchange the
given volume of air a sufficient number of times to allow the ‘gas chamber’ to be entered after this
ventilation process without powerful gas masks and protective clothing. The bottom line of all this
is that the ventilation facilities of crematoria II and III were designed strictly for purposes of normal
ventilation, and not for the removal of highly toxic quantities of gas in a short period of time (20 to
30 minutes).32


26 R. Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews, Holmes & Meier, New York 1985, Table 75.
27 J.-C. Pressac, op. cit. (note 8), p. 291.
28 C. Mattogno, “Auschwitz: Das Ende einer Legende”, in H. Verbeke (ed.), Auschwitz: Nackte Fakten, Vrij Historisch
Onderzoek, Berchem 1995, pp. 133ff. (online: vho.org/D/anf/Mattogno.html); Engl: Auschwitz: The End of a Legend,
Granata Publishing, Palos Verdes, CA, 1994 (online: vho.org/GB/Books/anf/Mattogno.html).
29 Ibid., p. 140; cf. W. Heepke, Die Leichenverbrennungsanstalten (die Krematorien), Verlag von Carl Marhold, Halle
a.S. 1905, p. 104.
30 C. Mattogno, op. cit. (note 28), p. 141f.; cf. G. Peters, E. Wüstinger, “Sach-Entlausung in Blausäure-Kammern”,
Zeitschrift für hygienische Zoologie und Schädlingsbekämpfung 10/11 (1940), p. 195; F. Puntigam, H. Breymesser,
E. Bernfus, Blausäuregaskammern zur Fleckfieberabwehr, Sonderveröffentlichung des Reichsarbeitsblattes, Berlin
1943, p. 50.
31 J.-C. Pressac, ibid., pp. 16 and 18.
32 This is also the opinion of J.-C. Pressac, ibid., pp. 224 and 289."
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Old 3rd August 2015, 07:03 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by ryu238 View Post
Ok is this accurate in any way about the holocaust?
I'm no expert on the holocaust, but "mortuary" is spelled correctly, if that helps.
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Old 3rd August 2015, 07:07 PM   #145
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Old 6th August 2015, 06:12 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by ryu238 View Post
Ok is this accurate in any way about the holocaust?

Quote:
Quote:

On May 4, 1992, court expert Jagschitz discussed the “considerably large ventilators” (“I found
that clearly in Moscow”, page 19 of court transcript; “these enormous ventilators that vent air out of
the mortuaries”, “rather there were considerably large ventilators at least in crematoria II and III”,
page 34 of court transcript).
These ventilators had engines of 3.5 hp. Given a necessary vacuum capacity of 6 inches watercolumn
and considering the length of the conduit cross-sections, conduit course (numerous rightangle
diversions), interior surfaces of the conduit (undressed brick, wood) and the nature of the vent
openings (coarsely punched metal), this suffices for a maximum of ten exchanges of air in the ‘gas
chamber’ per hour.
Considering the ventilation time of 30 minutes, this means that the concentration of hydrogen
cyanide may then have dropped to a minimum of approximately 1/100 of the initial concentration.
But since the method of alleged introduction of the Zyklon B from above means that the evaporation
of hydrogen cyanide cannot be simply ‘shut off’, as it were (that works only in the American
gas chambers using hydrogen cyanide generators), the evaporation would continue and at a greater
rate than before, since the less than atmospheric pressure created in ventilation (lowering of the
boiling-point) promotes evaporation. This means that until almost right before the end of the evaporation
process – which can take from a few to many hours, depending on the ambient temperature
and humidity – the ventilators with their capacity of only 3.5 hp would have had to perform a Sisyphean
task without succeeding in lowering the concentration below the lethal level.
The question how the ventilators really worked, given a chamber crowded to bursting with dead
bodies and given the air intake and exhaust configuration, is a matter that still needs to be settled by
ventilation experts, for the used air was exhausted from below even though heating and increased
moisture content caused by the presence of the victims would have made it lighter than the incoming
fresh air. Another problem is the fact that the air intake and exhaust openings are located too
close to each other – 6.5 feet apart on the same wall, vs. a distance of 24.5 feet from the opposite
wall of the room blocked by the dead bodies. This means that there would be a ‘short-circuit’ of air
in the chamber.

Given an initial hydrogen cyanide concentration of 5 g/m3, complete ‘shut-off’ of gas production,
five air exchanges per half hour and ideal ventilation conditions, the concentration of hydrogen cyanide
remaining will be only 50 mg/m3 after half an hour and it will be safe to enter the gas chamber
without a gas mask. But since Zyklon B continues to outgas for hours, entering the gas chamber after
30 minutes and without protective clothing as claimed would be fatal. Even gas masks equipped
with a special filter J, guaranteeing safety for 30 minutes, would be inadequate under such conditions.
Furthermore, the location of the air intake and exhaust vents on the roof ridge, approximately
15 feet apart,27 begs the question as to what would happen whenever there was a breeze from the
exhaust vent towards the intake opening. Again, it would be a matter of a ‘short-circuit of air’. No
self-respecting German engineer worth his epaulets would design a ‘gas chamber’ this poorly.
The ventilator for the dissecting room and the rooms for washing up and for laying out the corpses
– all of them situated above-ground and with windows – had a capacity of 1 hp, while that for the
much larger mortuary 1 (‘gas chamber’) had 3.5 hp. As Carlo Mattogno has shown, the performance
of all air extractions systems of the different rooms in crematoria II and III in Birkenau (oven
room, mortuary 1, mortuary 2, dissecting and washing room) was considered to be nearly the same:
11,5 to 16,6 air exchanges per hour.28 And Mattogno provided evidence that this was the standard
power required for morgues according to contemporary German expert literature,29 whereas air extraction
systems for hydrogen cyanide gas chambers (delousing chambers) required at least 72 air
exchanges per hour.30 Thus, mortuary 1 was certainly not suited to exchange the given volume of
air, enriched with 5 g/m3 (according to Pressac,31 it was even 12 g/m3!) and within the space of time
(30 minutes) claimed in Holocaust literature (eyewitness reports), nor was it suited to exchange the
given volume of air a sufficient number of times to allow the ‘gas chamber’ to be entered after this
ventilation process without powerful gas masks and protective clothing. The bottom line of all this
is that the ventilation facilities of crematoria II and III were designed strictly for purposes of normal
ventilation, and not for the removal of highly toxic quantities of gas in a short period of time (20 to
30 minutes).32


26 R. Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews, Holmes & Meier, New York 1985, Table 75.
27 J.-C. Pressac, op. cit. (note 8), p. 291.
28 C. Mattogno, “Auschwitz: Das Ende einer Legende”, in H. Verbeke (ed.), Auschwitz: Nackte Fakten, Vrij Historisch
Onderzoek, Berchem 1995, pp. 133ff. (online: vho.org/D/anf/Mattogno.html); Engl: Auschwitz: The End of a Legend,
Granata Publishing, Palos Verdes, CA, 1994 (online: vho.org/GB/Books/anf/Mattogno.html).
29 Ibid., p. 140; cf. W. Heepke, Die Leichenverbrennungsanstalten (die Krematorien), Verlag von Carl Marhold, Halle
a.S. 1905, p. 104.
30 C. Mattogno, op. cit. (note 28), p. 141f.; cf. G. Peters, E. Wüstinger, “Sach-Entlausung in Blausäure-Kammern”,
Zeitschrift für hygienische Zoologie und Schädlingsbekämpfung 10/11 (1940), p. 195; F. Puntigam, H. Breymesser,
E. Bernfus, Blausäuregaskammern zur Fleckfieberabwehr, Sonderveröffentlichung des Reichsarbeitsblattes, Berlin
1943, p. 50.
31 J.-C. Pressac, ibid., pp. 16 and 18.
32 This is also the opinion of J.-C. Pressac, ibid., pp. 224 and 289."
This quote is typical denier bull. Like virtually all such denier bull it's intention is impress the casual reader with a flood of "details" and phony "academic" decoration.

The stuff about the chambers being lethal to come into after 30 minutes after a gassing is crap along with the fact the writers very carefully ignore that the concentration of gas required to kill people is rather low. It is interesting that the quote footnotes Pressac who in great tedium and detail refutes virtually all of this crap. Since the author is distorting Pressac who concluded that the chambers did in fact function has mass homicidal gas chambers has claimed by witnesses we can simply dismiss this person's crap has utter nonsense and lies.

Pressac's work can be found at http://history.org/auschwitz/pressac...and-operation/

The thing is a Holocaust denier must be assumed to be a liar until proven otherwise.
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Old 6th August 2015, 06:23 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
This quote is typical denier bull. Like virtually all such denier bull it's intention is impress the casual reader with a flood of "details" and phony "academic" decoration.

The stuff about the chambers being lethal to come into after 30 minutes after a gassing is crap along with the fact the writers very carefully ignore that the concentration of gas required to kill people is rather low. It is interesting that the quote footnotes Pressac who in great tedium and detail refutes virtually all of this crap. Since the author is distorting Pressac who concluded that the chambers did in fact function has mass homicidal gas chambers has claimed by witnesses we can simply dismiss this person's crap has utter nonsense and lies.

Pressac's work can be found at http://history.org/auschwitz/pressac...and-operation/

The thing is a Holocaust denier must be assumed to be a liar until proven otherwise.
I just realized that he also forgot that the guards were wearing gas masks after the killing.
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Old 6th August 2015, 10:14 PM   #148
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Maybe it depends on the generation you're in, but although I was born after the holocaust itself, I knew many people who were not, including a few who went through it. The documentation for the horror is enormous, the eyewitness accounts horrendous, the carnage undeniable, the literature abundant, the records kept by the Nazis themselves incredible, the losses unforgiveable, and the complicity of the oblivious masses at best regrettable. Why on earth should any sane person spend more than the time it takes to say "shut the **** up," when some apologetic ratbag thinks he's getting anywhere by waxing pedantic about the fans in the crematoria.
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Old 7th August 2015, 04:20 AM   #149
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Quote:
The holocaust was probably the best documented crime in history, and most of the documentation was done by the perpetrators.
No-practically the most unknown. In reading some of the shorthand logs of the supreme command you find things like the 800,000 Polish Jews that were shipped to the Black sea are counted in the '6 million Jews killed'

That is part of the problem.

All the numbers are simply guesses-as the records for all the camps were in the resettlement files that went up in flames April 22 1945 in the basement of the Propaganda Ministry first an 800 plane baronage by the British that dropped over 2000 bombs-then incinerated with a new form of bomb containing gelled gasoline the next morning by the Americans.

Nothing is known about the Judenfri in the Polish center region of Lubin. All that is known comes from the integrations of the men in the Police reserve units that were there.

It is impossible to know the validity of what is left over-some of it is fake some of it is not.

Himmler’s chief statistician, Dr. Richard
Korherr, had analysed the fate of the world’s estimated 17,ooo,ooo Jews:
Europe’s ,, had dwindled by  percent since , owing to
emigration, the high natural mortality rate, and the enforced ‘evacuation’
that had begun with the prohibition of emigration late in . To Himmler’s
annoyance, on reading the sixteen-page document on March  he found
that it stated expressis verbis on page  that of the ,, Jews deported
from the eastern provinces ,, had been subjected to ‘special treatment’
at camps in the Generalgouvernement

Basically this says 1,467,000 were listed as resettled-what ever that means.

This long work by David Irving was totally by his book 'The destruction of Dresden'

This was appalling to the world as the American high command had no answer to the burning to death of 40,000 old men, Women and children in a city that had capitulated.

One of the most dreadful war crimes ever committed.
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Old 7th August 2015, 08:31 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
This quote is typical denier bull. Like virtually all such denier bull it's intention is impress the casual reader with a flood of "details" and phony "academic" decoration.

The stuff about the chambers being lethal to come into after 30 minutes after a gassing is crap along with the fact the writers very carefully ignore that the concentration of gas required to kill people is rather low. It is interesting that the quote footnotes Pressac who in great tedium and detail refutes virtually all of this crap. Since the author is distorting Pressac who concluded that the chambers did in fact function has mass homicidal gas chambers has claimed by witnesses we can simply dismiss this person's crap has utter nonsense and lies.

Pressac's work can be found at http://history.org/auschwitz/pressac...and-operation/

The thing is a Holocaust denier must be assumed to be a liar until proven otherwise.
Can someone show that Ruldof's exchange calculations are off?
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Old 7th August 2015, 08:15 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by ryu238 View Post
Can someone show that Ruldof's exchange calculations are off?
Why bother? Ruldof is mouthing denier bull that has been repeated over and over again for decades there is no point in wasting time refuting crap like Ruldof's because once again deniers must be assumed to be liars until proven otherwise. If you refutation of this bilge start with Pressac.
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Old 13th August 2015, 07:41 AM   #152
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If you are relying on anything David Irving is using, it must be taken with a huge pinch of salt. At the libel trail against Deborah Lipstadt it was shown that he had used a source who had no first hand knowledge of casualties in the bombing raid, and had no access to any documentation concerning casualty figures. This source also mis-identified a witness as the Deputy Chief Medical Examiner of the city, a post which he never held. It also became apparent that Irving had misused his research to paint Nazi Germany in the best light and the Allies in the worst light in most of his published works. Hardly a reliable source on the holocaust.
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Old 14th August 2015, 02:52 AM   #153
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Danish TV has started airing a recent French documentary series called 'Annihilation - The Destruction of Europe's Jews'. Interestingly, a lot of the segments with various experts on Nazi Germany and the Holocaust (Kershaw, Cesarani, Longerich, Klarsfeld, Porat, etc. etc.) are available on YouTube on the series' own channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOq...TEGa4Dg/videos

I doubt it contain much new information to regular thread readers, but I figured some might find it interesting.
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Old 19th August 2015, 09:08 PM   #154
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Hello everyone.

Before I get started let me just state that I know that the Holocaust did, in fact, happen. There is too much evidence supporting it for it not have and, sadly, it's not like it's an isolated spot of history where one group of people felt justified in whipping out another for whatever reason.

Let me also beg forgiveness not using the search functions to get the answer settled which may or may not have been asked and answered before. In my defense, there already has been two iterations of this thread encompassing thousands of posts and several years so such a search would produce too many useless results before I could get the one I need so here is this question:

How do we know that the common estimate of executed Jews is completely accurate?

The reason why I ask is because my mom, a Jew, was talking about the Holocaust museum in Israel and that brought up something that I've been wondering for years now but had not put into words until recently. Namely, how was it verified that the Nazi party executed more than seven million people?

I put that forth and the response was that they had kept meticulous records of the executions.

Me: Yeah, but how do we know that the Nazis were completely honest about how many they had killed and weren't exaggerating in any way to demoralize the Jews at the time?

Mom: It was because the Jews were the ones that were force to keep those records.

That was enough to give me cause to pause. This is the same people that have been lying since antiquity about their history, even in face of facts that contradict those lies.

Am I holding the past to them too much and the claims are true? Or am I right in doubting how many died and asking how it was verified?
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Old 21st August 2015, 10:22 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by KatieG View Post
My uncle was part of the forces that liberated one of those camps. He still can't talk about it without getting teary. I know he's not a liar.
My grandad was one of the liberators of Belsen. He had to clothes peg a sock on his nose to get to sleep. Holocaust denial is possibly the worse,most stupid sort of pseudohistory out there. Its also completely racist.
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Old 21st August 2015, 10:32 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by MaxMurx View Post
The point is that the video shows Ernst Zündel and other deniers being rigorously persecuted. Pro Holocausters do not speak up against that unusual practice, which means: they support it. In this case a discussion is not a discussion, science is not science. Thesis without anti thesis cannot lead to sythesis, is unscientific, if not unethical. Everybody being involved in such a pseudo discussion behaves this unethical way - deniers as well as all others. First persecution has to be removed everywhere. Then discussions can be called discussions.
Pro holocauster? That's like being pro oxygen, or pro water drinking. That's simple reality. Holocaust deniers are not persecuted. They are just treated like the stupid lying racist bigots they are.
Read french Maclean's the cruel hunters about the dirlewanger brigade,or "ordinary men" about a battalion of older policemen on the eastern front. The SS,Luftwaffe, Wehrmacht was all involved in the murder of at least 6,000,000 Jews.
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Old 21st August 2015, 08:35 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
How do we know that the common estimate of executed Jews is completely accurate?
I do not think anyone says the estimates are completely accurate, but rather remain consistent when examined using different methods of calculation. Here is a good simple explanation of the calculation of the estimated figure.

Holocaust Facts: Where Does the Figure of 6 Million Victims Come From?
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/...emium-1.540880


Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
Mom: It was because the Jews were the ones that were force to keep those records.
It's a mixed bag of sources. For Treblinka, the Germans kept good records as can be seen in the Hofle telegram (decrypted only in the last 20 years), yet simultaneously, the Polish Catholic Station master at Treblinka keep a diary of the transport numbers, as he knew a crime was being committed. These figures remain consistent with other secondary evidence like the number of mass graves located in the recent archaeological investigation.

There are a couple of real holocaust historians on the Skeptic Society anti-holocaust denial sub forum, who can answer any detailed questions you may have. ( There are also some deniers, but that what forums are all about)
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Old 23rd August 2015, 02:55 AM   #158
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Likewise sources such as the Jäger Report which dealt with victims of one of the Einsatzgruppen, and the Korherr Report, which used statistics to show the decline in the number of jews in Europe.

IIRC the German Railways also kept some fairly detailed accounts of the number of jews transported by them, as they collected ticket money(!) from the SS. So for Treblinka, it's even possible to draw up tables such as this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Treblinka
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Old 24th August 2015, 12:05 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by skeptichaggis View Post
That's simple reality. Holocaust deniers are not persecuted. They are just treated like the stupid lying racist bigots they are.
Not so simple after all, I think. I've mentioned this before, but it's my belief that holocaust denial is based mostly off of shear disbelief. Sure, the history of mankind is full wars, conquests, and crusades, but what the Nazis did was unthinkable to such a degree as to be unbelievable. And I'm not just talking about just the number of people they killed but the way in which they did it. If it started back up again, today, would you believe it?

Also while it's also hard someone would make up such horrendous crimes, it's not exactly unheard of. Once again, in that vein, I have to point out that the Jews have made up crimes almost as bad (see Exodus for example) and maintained that as true since antiquity in face of evidence saying it never happened. So while I know the holocaust happened I also wouldn't put it past the Jews to make it up completely or greatly exaggerate it.
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Old 24th August 2015, 07:18 AM   #160
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Last I looked, the folklore of Exodus was shared by Christians, who also believe in the crucifixion and the resurrection and the virgin birth and a few other rather unlikely things. Of course one has to corroborate history, but considering "the Jews" as somehow especially unreliable seems a bit odd.
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