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Old 10th February 2017, 02:15 AM   #81
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
So you accept that since the SNP are a minority government they have no mandate for a further referendum. The people of Scoitland voted against independence in the referendum, then the SNP went from a majority to a minority party. Seems to me two successive votes giving a message about the will of the Scottish people.
What's minority government got to do with the price of fish? Complete red herring. If there's a majority for the referendum then they can make it happen, if there isn't they can't.

Quote:
So was it a lie about the referenda being a once in a generation vote? Was it a lie about Scotland being able to remain in the EU.
The once in a generation thing is another red herring. It was a Salmond turn of phrase not a policy pledge. In any case so what if Salmond did say it, how does that tie anyone else to it?

Quote:
I put a lot of time and worry into my once in a lifetime vote. I resent that sore losers want to waste that effort.
Feel free not to vote in the next one if it's too much time and effort. That's your choice.

Quote:
Perhaps it would be easier on us all if there could just be a referendum on having a referendum. Then we could just vote on whether we wanted a year of campaigning every four years when we had an election, just add a question to the ballot, Do you authorise the government to hold an independence referendum in the next four years.
Or maybe you could stop talking nonsense?

Quote:
The problem about mandate arguments is that one may vote for the SNP but not vote for independence. As it happens the SNP did not commit to a repeat referendum in their election manifesto so they cannot claim that as justification. So the current SNP government is a minority government without a clear commitment to a repeat referendum in their manifesto.
Yes there's a shell of an argument there. But if you vote SNP and are opposed to independence then you are a bit daft really. It's a bit like voting UKIP and being for the EU. I've already said my ideal scenario would be to have another Scottish election then a referendum but that may not be possible. Nicola will have to play the hand she is dealt and in this case timing is crucial. Scotland needs to have voted for independence before the Tories yank us out of the EU in my opinion.

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At least we have some honesty, that for some people the plan is a referendum every four years until they get the decision they want then never again. Statistically a very dubious process.
Well no you don't. You are just reading into what i have said things to suit your prejudices. I don't think we should have a referendum every four years nor does anyone else as far as i know. What I have said is that a government has the right to do it. Otherwise who on Earth do you suppose should stop them?
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Old 10th February 2017, 02:56 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
1. If the referendum is the people of Scotland's wish, and only Scots get to vote in it, then who do you think should pay for it?

2. If the Scots get independence, how often should they subsequently hold referendums on whether or not they wish to rejoin the UK?
If we leave the EU how often should we subsequently hold referendums on whether or not we wish to rejoin?
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Old 10th February 2017, 02:59 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
2. If the Scots get independence, how often should they subsequently hold referendums on whether or not they wish to rejoin the UK?
I don't know about Scotland, but anti-EU crowd in the UK demanded referendums were repeated infinitely until they got the result they wanted and then demanded this was the final referendum to settle the question for all eternity.

By the same measure the Scottish independence referendum should be repeated until such time as Leave wins, and that settles the matter once and for all.

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Old 10th February 2017, 06:32 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I don't know about Scotland, but anti-EU crowd in the UK demanded referendums were repeated infinitely until they got the result they wanted...
I don't think so. There was one previous referendum in 1975 (and it's at least one 'generation' since that date) but that referendum was on whether Britain should remain in the EEC (aka 'common market') which was a very different entity compared to the EU it's evolved into.

I've no objection at all to future referendums to rejoin the EU after we've left - providing the EU indicates that it would be prepared to have us back and there is majority support in Britain to hold a referendum.

I've no fears that we would ever rejoin as 1) The EU may collapse in the near future anyway and 2) Even if the EU survives there is no chance that Britain would vote to rejoin once the British have had the opportunity to see how much better things are once they're outside it.

Last edited by ceptimus; 10th February 2017 at 06:38 AM.
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Old 10th February 2017, 06:43 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I've no objection at all to future referendums to rejoin the EU after we've left - providing the EU indicates that it would be prepared to have us back and there is majority support in Britain to hold a referendum.
Surely just a majority in Parliament...
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Old 10th February 2017, 07:24 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I don't think so. There was one previous referendum in 1975 (and it's at least one 'generation' since that date) but that referendum was on whether Britain should remain in the EEC (aka 'common market') which was a very different entity compared to the EU it's evolved into.

I've no objection at all to future referendums to rejoin the EU after we've left - providing the EU indicates that it would be prepared to have us back and there is majority support in Britain to hold a referendum.
McHrozni was not talking about the distant past rather the leave campaigners in the recent referendum for example
The question of a second referendum was raised by Mr Farage in an interview with the Mirror in which he said: "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it."

I can't remember, what was the result this time?
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Old 10th February 2017, 07:45 AM   #87
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Like I say, I've no objection to having another referendum to rejoin after we've left - providing the EU are prepared to allow us to rejoin and if a majority of the British population want such a referendum.

So no conflict with what Mr Farage said - the two possible outcomes have perfect symmetry:

If we voted remain then we would have remained and maybe had another referendum down the line if that's what people wanted.

As we voted leave, we'll leave and then maybe have another referendum to rejoin down the line if that's what people want - but of course, if the EU say we can't rejoin then such a referendum would be pointless.

Last edited by ceptimus; 10th February 2017 at 07:46 AM.
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Old 10th February 2017, 07:54 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Surely just a majority in Parliament...
I suppose if a referendum is promised in a party's election manifesto and that party wins a majority at an election then that would be sufficient - that's the way 'call me Dave' engineered last year's referendum.

Last edited by ceptimus; 10th February 2017 at 07:55 AM.
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Old 10th February 2017, 09:40 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Like I say, I've no objection to having another referendum to rejoin after we've left - providing the EU are prepared to allow us to rejoin and if a majority of the British population want such a referendum.
If we were to rejoin, of course, we would almost certainly have to join the Euro and Schengen, and lose all of the other benefits that we've whinged our way into over the years.
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Old 10th February 2017, 10:32 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Rat View Post
If we were to rejoin, of course, we would almost certainly have to join the Euro and Schengen, and lose all of the other benefits that we've whinged our way into over the years.
But if we leave, according to Politico Brexit Bulletin
The Parliament note also suggests that EU regional funds handed to U.K. companies or government bodies in the 10 years before Brexit (small businesses are exempt) will need to be repaid to the European Commission. That’s because the funded activities will have 'relocated outside the Union'.
Oh dear me. I wonder what Nicola Sturgeon and her pals will make of that. I think Scotland has been a significant beneficiary of such funding.
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Old 10th February 2017, 10:57 AM   #91
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All the EU talk of the UK making payments to the EU in order to leave is nonsense on stilts. They want €60 billion so they can pay pensions to retired EU officials after we've left. Hahaha!

No one pays to leave a club. When you leave a club you just walk away and if the club asks you for money you tell the club to get stuffed.

Last edited by ceptimus; 10th February 2017 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 10th February 2017, 11:00 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
All the EU talk of the UK making payments to the EU in order to leave is nonsense on stilts. They want €60 billion so they can pay pensions to retired EU officials after we've left. Hahaha!

No one pays to leave a club. When you leave a club you just walk away and if the club asks you for money you tell the club to get stuffed.
It's not payments, it's repayments.
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Old 10th February 2017, 11:01 AM   #93
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Call them what you will. The answer is the same. No!
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Old 10th February 2017, 11:39 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
All the EU talk of the UK making payments to the EU in order to leave is nonsense on stilts. They want €60 billion so they can pay pensions to retired EU officials after we've left. Hahaha!

No one pays to leave a club. When you leave a club you just walk away and if the club asks you for money you tell the club to get stuffed.
And then you try to join another club?
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Old 10th February 2017, 11:42 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Call them what you will. The answer is the same. No!
They are payments that the UK has already signed up to. And the answer from the government will not be no, regardless of what you post here.
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Old 10th February 2017, 11:50 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Call them what you will. The answer is the same. No!
And you think that one of the first things we should do as a newly 'independent' nation is to make it clear to the world that we cannot be relied on to fulfill obligations that we signed up for?
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Old 10th February 2017, 12:27 PM   #97
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But we didn't sign up for them! The EU are lying!

Even at £350 million per week, a figure that I'm sure most of you say is too high the amount they're bandying about represents about 3 years worth of our normal contribution as full members. If we take our net contribution figure as being about half the £350 million then what the EU are requesting is that after leaving we should continue to pay into their corrupt organization for another 6 years!

You can wail all you like about it, but I promise you that this will not happen. We'll see what happens in due course and then you can all admit that I was right and you were wrong.

Last edited by ceptimus; 10th February 2017 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 10th February 2017, 12:32 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
But we didn't sign up for them! The EU are lying!

Even at £350 million per week, a figure that I'm sure most of you say is too high the amount they're bandying about represents about 3 years worth of our normal contribution as full members. If we take our net contribution figure as being about half the £350 million then what the EU are requesting is that after leaving we should continue to pay into their corrupt organization for another 6 years!

You can wail all you like about it, but I promise you that this will not happen. We'll see who's right in due course and then you can all admit that I was right.
The UK has already signed up to the multiannual financial framework for the next five years, and on top of that there are pension commitments to UK MEPs and civil servants based in Brussels.

Nobody's wailing about it apart from you.
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Old 10th February 2017, 12:37 PM   #99
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We won't be paying the pensions of retired EU bureaucrats after we've left. Currently their average pension is about three times the average British worker's salary.

We paid into their pension pot for all the time we've been members (that's part of the £350 million per week). Why on earth do you think we should continue to pay after we've left? If you leave a job, do you expect your ex employer to continue making contributions towards your pension? If so, I wonder what colour the sky is in your universe.
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Old 10th February 2017, 12:39 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
We won't be paying the pensions of retired EU bureaucrats after we've left. Currently their average pension is about three times the average British worker's salary.

We paid into their pension pot for all the time we've been members (that's part of the £350 million per week). Why on earth do you think we should continue to pay after we've left? If you leave a job, do you expect your ex employer to continue making contributions towards your pension? If so, I wonder what colour the sky is in your universe.
If there was a commitment to contribute towards my pension in the employment contract, yes I damn well would. And so will they.
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Old 10th February 2017, 12:42 PM   #101
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Well they can hope for it. But it will never happen in reality. Wait and see. Anyway, I'm done discussing this with you. Time will tell.
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Old 10th February 2017, 12:45 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Well they can hope for it. But it will never happen in reality. Wait and see. Anyway, I'm done discussing this with you. Time will tell.
It always amazes me that you Brexit types never have any understanding of how the EU actually works. You'd think you'd make an effort to understand what you're a member of, and what leaving would entail, before you voted to leave.
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Old 10th February 2017, 02:23 PM   #103
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It serves them right, British Citizens working for the EU are obviously traitors and don't deserve a pension.
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Old 10th February 2017, 02:36 PM   #104
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What the hell did the EU do to make ceptimus have such a over the top hate for it?
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Old 10th February 2017, 03:03 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It serves them right, British Citizens working for the EU are obviously traitors and don't deserve a pension.
They'll get their state pension plus any pension rights that they've already accrued. Once we leave the EU they'll be out of a job and they can't expect their previous employer to carry on putting money into their pension pots - no employer does that. They'll be free to look for a new job just like any other ex-employees. If the EU wants to continue to employ them that's fine - obviously the EU will then pay into their pension pots using the EU's own funds.

I don't see why any of this is difficult to understand. It's only in the bizarre EU universe that anything different would be dreamt of.

Last edited by ceptimus; 10th February 2017 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 10th February 2017, 03:24 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
We won't be paying the pensions of retired EU bureaucrats after we've left. Currently their average pension is about three times the average British worker's salary.

We paid into their pension pot for all the time we've been members (that's part of the £350 million per week). Why on earth do you think we should continue to pay after we've left? If you leave a job, do you expect your ex employer to continue making contributions towards your pension? If so, I wonder what colour the sky is in your universe.
I'll just leave this here:
Quote:
Pensions make up the third component. The liabilities for the EU’s unfunded scheme stand at over €60bn. Britain may be prepared to cover its own nationals. But European officials insist that all liabilities are a joint responsibility, as Eurocrats work for the EU, not their national governments. This may be the fiercest row of all.

Brussels’s demand will combine these three elements with a few miscellaneous items, and may adjust for Britain’s share of EU assets, its budget rebate and payments it is due from the EU (see chart).
http://www.economist.com/news/britai...ld-sink-brexit

Might not be as cut & dry as you say.Bill stands at between Euro40-60bn.. ish
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Old 10th February 2017, 04:52 PM   #107
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The EU hasn't had audited accounts for years. No one really knows how much debt they have. They're just plucking wishful figures out of thin air. Of course the EU would like Britain to pay its pensions but of course we will refuse to do so.
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Old 10th February 2017, 05:03 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Rat View Post
And you think that one of the first things we should do as a newly 'independent' nation is to make it clear to the world that we cannot be relied on to fulfill obligations that we signed up for?
That.
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Old 10th February 2017, 05:11 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The EU hasn't had audited accounts for years.
What do you mean by that, and where did you get it from?
Quote:
No one really knows how much debt they have.
Thay do. They don't know how much they'll have in two years time, but then who does?

Quote:
They're just plucking wishful figures out of thin air.
They really aren't. You must be thinking of "£350m a week".
Quote:
Of course the EU would like Britain to pay its pensions but of course we will refuse to do so.
How very Trumpian of us.
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Old 10th February 2017, 05:19 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What the hell did the EU do to make ceptimus have such a over the top hate for it?
Joining Europe was a stark recognition of the End of Empire. That's a trauma some people have never come to terms with.
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Old 11th February 2017, 12:20 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
We paid into their pension pot for all the time we've been members (that's part of the £350 million per week). Why on earth do you think we should continue to pay after we've left? If you leave a job, do you expect your ex employer to continue making contributions towards your pension? If so, I wonder what colour the sky is in your universe.
It's an unfunded scheme. No-one has been paying into their pension pot ever, the EU pension obligations are paid out of current accounts. And actually, that's the dominant scheme in the UK as well:
Quote:
Approximately 60% of pension provision in the UK is unfunded, comprising http://www.actuaries.org/EVENTS/Semi...ions/lewis.pdfstate
pension benefits and some public sector occupational pension schemes.
So yes, when the UK leaves it'll have to contribute to future pension claims of EU personnel.
Originally Posted by wobs View Post
From that link:
Quote:
If a compromise cannot be reached, Britain might find itself hauled before the International Court of Justice.
Couldn't it be the ECJ, pretty please? Brexiteers LOVE the ECJ.
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The EU hasn't had audited accounts for years.
Brexit propaganda.
https://fullfact.org/europe/did-audi...ign-eu-budget/
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-...endum-36276175
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
No one really knows how much debt they have.
[ citation required ]
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
They're just plucking wishful figures out of thin air.
[ citation required ]
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Of course the EU would like Britain to pay its pensions but of course we will refuse to do so.
That sounds so crude. I think the British tradition is to promise to pay its debts but not do it. There's still some debt outstanding dating back to the South Sea Bubble of 1720.
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Old 11th February 2017, 12:37 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
All the EU talk of the UK making payments to the EU in order to leave is nonsense on stilts. They want €60 billion so they can pay pensions to retired EU officials after we've left. Hahaha!

No one pays to leave a club. When you leave a club you just walk away and if the club asks you for money you tell the club to get stuffed.
Not if you owe them money you don't. They sue you if you do that.
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Old 11th February 2017, 02:43 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
It's an unfunded scheme. No-one has been paying into their pension pot ever, the EU pension obligations are paid out of current accounts. And actually, that's the dominant scheme in the UK as well:


So yes, when the UK leaves it'll have to contribute to future pension claims of EU personnel.

From that link:

Couldn't it be the ECJ, pretty please? Brexiteers LOVE the ECJ.

Brexit propaganda.
https://fullfact.org/europe/did-audi...ign-eu-budget/
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-...endum-36276175

[ citation required ]

[ citation required ]

That sounds so crude. I think the British tradition is to promise to pay its debts but not do it. There's still some debt outstanding dating back to the South Sea Bubble of 1720.
I think this is likely to be the truth. It is difficult to make nations pay debts. If the EU want UK cash, this will be a negotiating issue. The UK could walk away, the EU then could undertake prolonged legal action at the ICJ to enforce the debt, the problem is any enforcement is done via the UN security council on which the UK is a permanent member with a veto. So effectively the EU will be unable to enforce any decision against the UK. Equally there will have to be negotiations over a lump sum payment vs. staged payments, currency, interest.

So since this is effectively an unenforceable debt to get payment the EU will have to offer incentives to the UK. The EU does itself no favours by bigging up the debt, as any smaller amount agreed at the end of the negotiations looks like a loss for the EU and gain for the UK.
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Old 11th February 2017, 03:58 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post

So since this is effectively an unenforceable debt
Funny that. When it was suggested that Scotland would not be on the hook for UK debt that it never ran up post independence this was considered the end of the world. When the UK wants to walk away from the debt it is legitimately due then it's unenforceable and not an issue.

I think the UK may find it slightly harder to walk away from this debt than the foam-mouthed Brexiteers seem to think.
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Old 11th February 2017, 04:25 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I think the UK may find it slightly harder to walk away from this debt than the foam-mouthed Brexiteers seem to think.

I've not actually met anyone in favour of the UK leaving the EU that actually has a realistic grasp on the issues.

This is somewhat understandable as the entire campaign in favour of leaving was a pack of lies. And yet, here we are.
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Old 11th February 2017, 04:38 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Funny that. When it was suggested that Scotland would not be on the hook for UK debt that it never ran up post independence this was considered the end of the world. When the UK wants to walk away from the debt it is legitimately due then it's unenforceable and not an issue.

I think the UK may find it slightly harder to walk away from this debt than the foam-mouthed Brexiteers seem to think.
The reality is that the UK has a veto on the Security Council. Now politically one may not want to be in the position of vetoing action against one's self but the EU will know that getting the money if they want it is a matter of negotiation. I do not think the Uk government will walk away from the payment but they will not agree to it pre-negotiation. I would not expect them to. I would expect the UK to say entirely neutral things neither recognising the debt nor denying that any payment will be made. I guess that if the EU want £60 billion in cash then they will have to concede £60 billion in tarrifs. This may mean some deal on the city.

An indépendant Scotland will not be in a powerful negotiating position, this is reality. It may not be fair but once independence has happened the rest of the UK has to get the best deal they can at the cost of Scotland. Scotland's negotiator's will get the best deal they can for Scotland at the cost of the rest of the UK. Any split on assets will include a split on debt. Remember no other existing country will look in favour of territories becoming independent doing so without a split in debt, so it is not as if there will be a popular support from other nations. Just as the EU wants to discourage Brexit imitators so other countries will want to discourage splits and are likely to favour a hard deal for Scotland to discourage local cessationist movements. It is all like being back at school, there are bitches and bullies and cliques and some nice but boring girls who will be your friend if attend CU.

Anyway we now know that the drive for Scottish Independence is being driven by the Kremlin, Nicola is presumably a fellow traveller rather than a sleeper. Perhaps Trump can have words with his friend Putin and close down this campaign!
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Old 11th February 2017, 04:43 AM   #117
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Who would sign a trade deal with Britain if we just walked away from an obligation?
How much trade would we have with Europe?
It would wreck any standing we had in the world as a reliable partner.

You say in your example on Scotlands share of debt
Quote:
Remember no other existing country will look in favour of territories becoming independent doing so without a split in debt, so it is not as if there will be a popular support from other nations.
That would apply equally to Britain running from obligations to the EU.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 11th February 2017 at 04:47 AM.
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Old 11th February 2017, 04:46 AM   #118
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Oh dear! Who will pay the pensions after the EU collapses?

In any case, like any contracting organization that is losing funding, the EU needs to get a grip on its pension bill.
  • The pensions are ludicrously munificent - three times average UK salary. There should be an immediate 50% cut with further cuts staged till the pensions get down to the average pensions paid by other organizations.
  • Raise the retirement age - as is being done by most countries for their unfunded pensions. The EU bureaucrats don't do anything useful anyway so their jobs could be done just as well, arguably better, by doddering octogenarians. An immediate rise of the retirement age to 75 is justified with further raises staged in later.
  • No pension entitlements for any new employees. Let them save for their own private pensions just like any normal employee. This will be in their own interests anyway as when the EU eventually collapses the ex-employees will still hold onto their private pensions.
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Old 11th February 2017, 04:57 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Oh dear! Who will pay the pensions after the EU collapses?

In any case, like any contracting organization that is losing funding, the EU needs to get a grip on its pension bill.
  • The pensions are ludicrously munificent - three times average UK salary. There should be an immediate 50% cut with further cuts staged till the pensions get down to the average pensions paid by other organizations.
  • Raise the retirement age - as is being done by most countries for their unfunded pensions. The EU bureaucrats don't do anything useful anyway so their jobs could be done just as well, arguably better, by doddering octogenarians. An immediate rise of the retirement age to 75 is justified with further raises staged in later.
  • No pension entitlements for any new employees. Let them save for their own private pensions just like any normal employee. This will be in their own interests anyway as when the EU eventually collapses the ex-employees will still hold onto their private pensions.

Can you prove any of the above?

What makes you think that the EU do nothing - have you been reading the fiction that is the daily mail again? you know they lie, don't you? Not even Wikipedia believes the daily mail.
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Old 11th February 2017, 04:58 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I've not actually met anyone in favour of the UK leaving the EU that actually has a realistic grasp on the issues.

This is somewhat understandable as the entire campaign in favour of leaving was a pack of lies. And yet, here we are.
I completely agree.

What I am not certain about is what the best option is having left the EU. I think and continue to think the UK should be part of the EU. But if we have to leave perhaps not being part of the EFTA is the right course. Being part of the EFTA offers all the disadvantages of being in the EU but none of the advantages. It seems definitely worse than being in the EU. Is not being part of the EFTA better than being in the EFTA? Is not being part of the customs union better than being part of the customs union?

The problem is this will not be clear until detailed negotiations are done, and the options are clearer.

Personally I would like a redo referendum once the shape of Brexit was much clearer, but that is because I am a sore loser and want a second bite at the poisoned apple because I think the pro Brexit voters were clearly mad, stupid or both.

Would the EU offer a compromise to keep the UK in the EU? I do not think so. I suspect if the EU came back with 'perhaps we could consider a limited suspension of freedom of movement for the UK' then this might be in Scottish speak a significant change to justify a repeat referendum. But this has not nor do I think it will happen. The principle of freedom of movement for the EU is more important than unity.

The reality is that there will be no second EU referendum whatever I may wish for.
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