ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Brexit

Reply
Old 13th July 2017, 04:39 AM   #2161
Degeneve
Muse
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 720
According to Michel Barnier the EU has prepared 9 distinct papers for the attention of the UK government. Each of these papers covers a different issue relating to the withdrawal process. "We need to know the UK position on each of these papers in order to move forward" said Barnier.

So far the only answer received by the EU concerns the rights of the EU citizen residing in the UK after the Brexit. Barnier said he is not satisfied with the answer. And this topic is supposed to be one of the easiest to solve. (source, in French: http://www.lalibre.be/actu/internati...706e263ec4e99d )
Degeneve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2017, 06:28 AM   #2162
Aepervius
Non credunt, semper verificare
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sigil, the city of doors
Posts: 14,581
Reading the article it seems that either (or both) :
* London do not want to give Eu citizen the same right in UK than the Uk citizen would enjoy post brexit, in other word no reproicity which would be a sina qua non (it would be a VERY hard sell for EU voters to hear that UK citizen enjoy more right in EU than EU citizen in UK).
* London do not want to recognize the ECJ over EU citizen right in UK post brexit.

ETA (point 2 is a point I had expected and do not see as unacceptable, IMO, but point 1 clearly is if it is really the case).

Quote:
Il est un point sur lequel Londres a fait connaître sa position : celui des droits des citoyens de l’Union européenne installés au Royaume-Uni, après le Brexit. Michel Barnier is not satisfied. Il a déploré "des différences d’ambition". Et de donner un exemple : "Nous voulons que les citoyens européens au Royaume-Uni bénéficient des mêmes droits que les citoyens britanniques en Espagne ou dans d’autres pays de l’Union. La position britannique telle qu’elle est ne permet pas cette réciprocité". M. Barnier a insisté sur le fait que les droits de ces citoyens devraient être garantis par la Cour de justice de l’Union européenne, dont Londres ne veut plus entendre parler.
As expected the antic of BJ about finance are not appreciated either.

Last edited by Aepervius; 13th July 2017 at 06:32 AM.
Aepervius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2017, 07:56 AM   #2163
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 39,155
Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Except that in this case with the EU as the townsfolk, who may just say 'go ahead and shoot'.
Well the EU might not be the "Common clay of the new west", you need them to be such for the plan to work.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2017, 11:20 AM   #2164
Aber
Muse
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 955
Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Reading the article it seems that either (or both) :
* London do not want to give Eu citizen the same right in UK than the Uk citizen would enjoy post brexit, in other word no reproicity which would be a sina qua non (it would be a VERY hard sell for EU voters to hear that UK citizen enjoy more right in EU than EU citizen in UK).
I don't think that then UK is insisting on UK citizens in EU countries retaining the same rights as EU citizens; the UK government would be content with UK citizens abroad being treated the same as EU citizens in the UK (the UK citizens abroad might not be happy with this though).

The EU's starting positions seems to be that all EU citizens in the UK should retain ALL their CURRENT rights in the UK (even when those are greater than UK citizens).
Aber is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2017, 01:16 PM   #2165
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,839
The smaller countries of the U.K. are becoming restive again. I wonder if the DUP in NI will be less troublesome. However May still has to find a way of squaring the circle of their demand for a hard Brexit with a soft Border. That won't be easy.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2017, 01:48 PM   #2166
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 17,248
Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
According to Michel Barnier the EU has prepared 9 distinct papers for the attention of the UK government. Each of these papers covers a different issue relating to the withdrawal process. "We need to know the UK position on each of these papers in order to move forward" said Barnier.
The comment of the journalist is good for a laugh:
Quote:
"Oh, les gars, je ne vais pas négocier tout seul".
Or in English: "Oh guys, I'm not going to negotiate alone" (that would be quite an accomplishment, it takes two to tango).

Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
As expected the antic of BJ about finance are not appreciated either.
And Barnier's reaction:
Quote:
Je n’entends pas siffler, mais bien le tic tac de l’horloge qui tourne
Translation: "I don't hear whistling, but I hear the clock ticking - tick tock. "
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2017, 01:53 PM   #2167
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 17,248
Originally Posted by Aber View Post
I don't think that then UK is insisting on UK citizens in EU countries retaining the same rights as EU citizens; the UK government would be content with UK citizens abroad being treated the same as EU citizens in the UK (the UK citizens abroad might not be happy with this though).

The EU's starting positions seems to be that all EU citizens in the UK should retain ALL their CURRENT rights in the UK (even when those are greater than UK citizens).
I don't think there's any aspect where they're greater than UK citizens. They have the same rights minus voting rights, roughly.

What happens with the European Health Insurance Card? I wonder how squeazy all those British pensioners on the Costa del Sol feel right now.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2017, 02:20 PM   #2168
Aber
Muse
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 955
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I don't think there's any aspect where they're greater than UK citizens. They have the same rights minus voting rights, roughly.
The UK requires UK citizens to have a minimum income level for granting visas to their non-EU spouses wanting to reside in the UK. This rule does not apply to EU citizens bringing non-EU spouses into the UK.
Aber is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2017, 02:24 PM   #2169
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,122
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Well the EU might not be the "Common clay of the new west", you need them to be such for the plan to work.

Some gossip that is eminently believable from Badscience

Quote:
Interesting and smoking titbit I heard this morning.
A friend who used to work in the FCO still has many friends there, and who have been seconded to departments like dexeu.
All the civil servants are aghast at how thick and bumptious* Davis and Fox are, and my friend was told "Davis doesn't know what he doesn't know and Fox doesn't want to know what he doesn't know."
Bodes well.

*which my phone wanted to autocorrupt to bump tits
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

Last edited by jimbob; 13th July 2017 at 02:25 PM. Reason: changed quote
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2017, 02:51 PM   #2170
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 19,315
Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Reading the article it seems that either (or both) :
* London do not want to give Eu citizen the same right in UK than the Uk citizen would enjoy post brexit, in other word no reproicity which would be a sina qua non (it would be a VERY hard sell for EU voters to hear that UK citizen enjoy more right in EU than EU citizen in UK).
* London do not want to recognize the ECJ over EU citizen right in UK post brexit.

ETA (point 2 is a point I had expected and do not see as unacceptable, IMO, but point 1 clearly is if it is really the case).
Does

London has said explicitly that the offer to EU citizens in the UK is dependent on reciprocity. In other words, they want no more and no less for UK citizens in the EU.

Why would we give some residents of the UK access to the ECJ, and not others? Why would anyone in their right mind imagine that a foreign court should have jurisdiction over some of our residents, but not others?

Quote:
As expected the antic of BJ about finance are not appreciated either.
Oh diddums. The EU wants to think of a number and double it, then add on a bit for good luck, and we should just pay up without discussion? You "don't appreciate" us saying "hang on a sec". With that sort of attitude, can you even begin to imagine why the majority of Brits want nothing more to do with the EU?
__________________
The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place. The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2017, 12:38 AM   #2171
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,386
Originally Posted by Aber View Post
I don't think that then UK is insisting on UK citizens in EU countries retaining the same rights as EU citizens; the UK government would be content with UK citizens abroad being treated the same as EU citizens in the UK (the UK citizens abroad might not be happy with this though).

The EU's starting positions seems to be that all EU citizens in the UK should retain ALL their CURRENT rights in the UK (even when those are greater than UK citizens).
It sounds like you disagree with this? Do you think countries should be OK with the UKredicing the rights of their citizens for no good reason?
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2017, 01:04 AM   #2172
Aber
Muse
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 955
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
It sounds like you disagree with this? Do you think countries should be OK with the UKredicing the rights of their citizens for no good reason?
I'm surprised that the EU starting position is 'guarantee all current rights held by the EU citizens in the UK forever, and have them judged by the ECJ'?
Aber is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2017, 01:20 AM   #2173
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,386
Originally Posted by Aber View Post
I'm surprised that the EU starting position is 'guarantee all current rights held by the EU citizens in the UK forever, and have them judged by the ECJ'?
Given that's the current status why would their starting position be anything less?
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2017, 01:24 AM   #2174
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,386
Originally Posted by Aber View Post
The UK requires UK citizens to have a minimum income level for granting visas to their non-EU spouses wanting to reside in the UK. This rule does not apply to EU citizens bringing non-EU spouses into the UK.
And this situation arose because the UK insisted on imposing ridiculous immigration rules that went against its treaty commitments to the EU and thus had to make a workaround for people exercising those treaty rights.

That the UK cannot be trusted to be reasonable (especially on immigration) is the very reason why the EU feel a need to try to guarantee the rights of its citizens in the first place.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2017, 01:37 AM   #2175
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,839
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
DoesWhy would we give some residents of the UK access to the ECJ, and not others? Why would anyone in their right mind imagine that a foreign court should have jurisdiction over some of our residents, but not others?
It's not a case of giving, but of taking away. Brexit can remove ECJ protection from UK citizens, but why should it remove it from French citizens living in the UK while it remains available to UK citizens residing in France? And it must, otherwise the ECJ would have jurisdiction over some residents of France and not others, a principle you seem unable to accept.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2017, 02:19 AM   #2176
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,386
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
It's not a case of giving, but of taking away. Brexit can remove ECJ protection from UK citizens, but why should it remove it from French citizens living in the UK while it remains available to UK citizens residing in France? And it must, otherwise the ECJ would have jurisdiction over some residents of France and not others, a principle you seem unable to accept.
There would be nothing strange about that situation. Residents of countries abide by the laws and rules of those countries not their home nations. People living in France will have recourse to the ECJ because that's their system, people in the UK would not because that's not (or won't be) our system just as, for example, US citizens don't have access to the ECJ.

Of course its also right for the EU to want to protect the rights of their citizens in other countries and push for the highest levels of protection they possibly can.

Were the UK government trustworthy this would be less of an issue but given their track record and noises emanating during and after the campaign it would be a fool who would not be concerned that UK residents will end up worse off with respect to rights than they currently are.

It would appear that the English and Welsh are mostly quite happy with that happening of course but there is no accounting for some people's tastes and that should not preclude others from fighting to keep what they currently have.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2017, 03:08 AM   #2177
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,839
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
There would be nothing strange about that situation. Residents of countries abide by the laws and rules of those countries not their home nations.
True, of course, but my point is that some nations grant different rights to resident citizens of different foreign countries. The UK provides an example.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2017, 03:47 AM   #2178
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,386
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
True, of course, but my point is that some nations grant different rights to resident citizens of different foreign countries. The UK provides an example.
Yes but here the issue seems to be more about reciprocity.

It seems Aber believes that EU citizens in the UK should be subject to UK rules and UK citizens in the EU should be subject to EU rules. Which on the face of it isn't unreasonable. However the effect would be that the EU would be extending a higher level of protection to UK citizens than the UK was prepared to extend to EU citizens.

This seems to be the issue within the negotiations rather than the red herring of the relative positions within the countries. After all the EU would have no particular interest in how badly the UK treats its own people but it should and obviously does care about whether its own citizens living in the UK are having their rights infringed by a foreign government.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2017, 03:48 AM   #2179
Aber
Muse
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 955
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Given that's the current status why would their starting position be anything less?
Can you think of any comparable situations in the past? eg Irish independence did not end up with rights of UK citizens in Eire being governed by English courts.
Aber is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2017, 03:52 AM   #2180
Aber
Muse
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 955
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Residents of countries abide by the laws and rules of those countries not their home nations. People living in France will have recourse to the ECJ because that's their system, people in the UK would not because that's not (or won't be) our system just as, for example, US citizens don't have access to the ECJ.
Sorry, but EU citizens in the UK would have recourse to the ECJ (after going through British courts first) according to the EU proposal, as I understand it.
Aber is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2017, 04:46 AM   #2181
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,386
Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Can you think of any comparable situations in the past? eg Irish independence did not end up with rights of UK citizens in Eire being governed by English courts.
The lack of a comparable outcome does not make the appropriateness of a starting position any greater or lesser. The EU is trying to ensure its citizens don't lose anything in the transition. That seems eminently sensible. Whether that outcome can be achieved will be the point of the negotiation.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2017, 04:47 AM   #2182
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,386
Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Sorry, but EU citizens in the UK would have recourse to the ECJ (after going through British courts first) according to the EU proposal, as I understand it.
Yes, but I wasn't talking about the EU proposal there. I was talking about the outcome that Craig B was suggesting/referencing.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2017, 04:54 AM   #2183
Aber
Muse
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 955
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The lack of a comparable outcome does not make the appropriateness of a starting position any greater or lesser.
Given there are a number of cases that could be argued to be similar - Yugoslavia, Soviet Union, Eire - the current EU position appears unprecedented, unless you have evidence otherwise.
Aber is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2017, 05:10 AM   #2184
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,386
Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Given there are a number of cases that could be argued to be similar - Yugoslavia, Soviet Union, Eire - the current EU position appears unprecedented, unless you have evidence otherwise.
I don't think those situations are similar but I don't see how what you posted here addressed the point I made. It can be unprecedented and yet eminently sensible as a starting position.

Someone leaving the EU is unprecedented.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2017, 05:31 AM   #2185
Degeneve
Muse
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 720
Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Sorry, but EU citizens in the UK would have recourse to the ECJ (after going through British courts first) according to the EU proposal, as I understand it.
I might be wrong but I think that the issue of the ECJ goes far beyond of the rights of the EU citizen in the UK.

For instance, if a UK business starts a litigation with the HRMC about a value added tax (VAT) issue, let's say, end of 2018 and the case goes to an UK court in the course of 2019 or 2020, the UK court must have the possibility to raise a prejudicial question to the ECJ. Indeed the UK VAT Act that will prevail in the UK at least till the Brexit is completed is an implementation of the EU directives relating to VAT. For this kind of matters it is the role of the ECJ to provide interpretation of the EU directives to the national courts. One can therefore easily imagine that during the years 2020 the ECJ could still have to rule on UK cases started before the Brexit.

And this goes not only for value added tax but for any piece of EU legislation that has been implemented in the UK as a result of its membership of the EU.
Degeneve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th July 2017, 01:35 AM   #2186
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,386
I'd be interested to know if those who advocate fees for students also believe that the NHS should charge and pensions should be means tested?

The latter in particular seems a rather blatant waste of money since it's literally giving it to those who don't need it for no return whatsoever. If we are worried about expenditures then pensions would seem the obvious place to start since it's by far the biggest chunk of spending. Maybe we could just scrap the state pension entirely and only provide support those who need it?

You also very rarely hear complaints about expensive cancer treatments being given to people to extend their lives by months. I'd love to hear why that's a better investment than tertiary education for the young.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"

Last edited by Archie Gemmill Goal; 15th July 2017 at 01:41 AM.
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th July 2017, 01:41 AM   #2187
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,839
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I'd be interested to know if those who advocate fees for students also believe that the NHS should charge and pensions should be means tested?
I've asked this about the NHS, in a previous thread where the same point was made about student fees, but it was not answered.

Who indeed continue to fund secondary, let alone tertiary, education, because the people who make best use of it are the children of the better off?
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th July 2017, 10:31 AM   #2188
Garrison
Illuminator
 
Garrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,522
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I've asked this about the NHS, in a previous thread where the same point was made about student fees, but it was not answered.

Who indeed continue to fund secondary, let alone tertiary, education, because the people who make best use of it are the children of the better off?
And there you have the classic example of the 'road to hell'. The original idea behind tuition fees, that the well off should make a contribution to the cost of their own university education and free up money that could be used in other areas of higher education, the epitome of good intentions. It all went wrong because governments started to see tuition fees as a replacement for other revenue not a supplement and the universities see it as a cash cow to milked ever harder.
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/
Garrison is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th July 2017, 10:37 PM   #2189
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,345
Here's what German negotiators thought about the British team:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7843526.html

In two adjectives, "farcical" and "clueless".

It looks like Team Fear will need to be renamed Team Optimists, I don't know what would be the appropriate name for the other side.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th July 2017, 11:33 PM   #2190
Aepervius
Non credunt, semper verificare
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sigil, the city of doors
Posts: 14,581
If By the other side you mean EU, then I propose "team realist".
Aepervius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th July 2017, 11:37 PM   #2191
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,345
Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
If By the other side you mean EU, then I propose "team realist".
No, I meant Team Brexit. Team Bremain should be called Team Optimists, seeing as how their predictions, once thought of as dire, now seem to be optimistic. How should we call Team Brexit now?

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th July 2017, 11:52 PM   #2192
Klimax
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
 
Klimax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9
Posts: 11,495
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
No, I meant Team Brexit. Team Bremain should be called Team Optimists, seeing as how their predictions, once thought of as dire, now seem to be optimistic. How should we call Team Brexit now?

McHrozni
Team "of Critical Incompetence".
__________________
ModBorg

Engine: Ibalgin 400
Klimax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th July 2017, 12:03 AM   #2193
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,345
Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Team "of Critical Incompetence".
Accurate, but I'd like something catchier. Team Clowns maybe?

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th July 2017, 01:21 AM   #2194
Amazer
Graduate Poster
 
Amazer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,347
Team Nincompoop

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk
Amazer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th July 2017, 01:38 AM   #2195
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,345
Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
Team Nincompoop
Yes, yes, that one would be quite good. It's also quite catchy.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th July 2017, 02:41 AM   #2196
Klimax
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
 
Klimax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9
Posts: 11,495
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Accurate, but I'd like something catchier. Team Clowns maybe?

McHrozni
Team May
__________________
ModBorg

Engine: Ibalgin 400
Klimax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th July 2017, 03:25 AM   #2197
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 78,002
Team May Not
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th July 2017, 03:41 AM   #2198
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,345
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Team May Not
Yeah. That's what I first thought when I saw the proposal as well.

Usually problems like Brexit look less severe as the question evolves. Not Brexit though, the more we get to know about it the worse it looks.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th July 2017, 04:06 AM   #2199
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 22,330
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Yeah. That's what I first thought when I saw the proposal as well.

Usually problems like Brexit look less severe as the question evolves. Not Brexit though, the more we get to know about it the worse it looks.

McHrozni
Which means that people like Davis, May and Fox will be more likely to press on regardless because otherwise they will have to stop, think and consider the alternatives
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2017, 05:33 AM   #2200
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 39,155
Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Team "of Critical Incompetence".
Incompetence got us into this situation so clearly it is the only way forward.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:44 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.