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Old 31st March 2017, 05:15 AM   #121
Pixel42
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
I am pursuing Mr. Baxter's proof of the mere existence of his 'god' as a starting point to evaluate that 'god's' piusaance anent TOBS. Mr. Baxter is the one attempting a derail by raising the issue of the factuality of the BOM...
Fair enough, but I'm still curious as to how this is supposed to work, even if we grant God's existence for the purposes of the discussion. In his OP BB talks about someone who appears to be being punished by God by pain for bad behaviour, and how such a person could be guided by TOBS to modify his behaviour and hence reduce the pain (if I'm understanding him correctly). But what about chronic pain sufferers whose behaviour is exemplary, how are they supposed to benefit from TOBS? Or is he suggesting that chronic pain is always a punishment from God for bad behaviour, which is of course an extremely offensive suggestion?
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Old 31st March 2017, 05:18 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Fair enough, but I'm still curious as to how this is supposed to work, even if we grant God's existence for the purposes of the discussion. In his OP BB talks about someone who appears to be being punished by God by pain for bad behaviour, and how such a person could be guided by TOBS to modify his behaviour and hence reduce the pain (if I'm understanding him correctly). But what about chronic pain sufferers whose behaviour is exemplary, how are they supposed to benefit from TOBS? Or is he suggesting that chronic pain is always a punishment from God for bad behaviour, which is of course an extremely offensive suggestion?
...and, of course, there's the rub. Mr. BVaxter seems to be of the opinion that (for instance) Paul Tarsi's "faith" was not enough to alleviate the "thorn in his side"...(but then, the BOM had not yet been forged...)
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Old 31st March 2017, 07:45 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post

I have a doctor's appointment in the morning, so I'm off to bed.

bb
Sincerely, I wish you all the best. I am, however, a little puzzled. Why are you going to a doctor, when firstly you can stop all pain yourself, and secondly, prayer can cure everything? Is your god not capable of healing you?
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Old 31st March 2017, 08:16 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
yawn

I am way behind and need some sleep. I'd suggest that if y'all want to have a spiritual witness that God is real, read and pray about the Book of Mormon. Even if you think it;s factually incorrect. I promise you it'll be time well-spent.

I have a doctor's appointment in the morning, so I'm off to bed.

bb
I know your book is factually incorrect.
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Old 31st March 2017, 08:46 AM   #125
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The Gospel of Sven is apocryphal, so won't be considered to be good evidence here on a skeptics forum. Which is too bad, considering that the anonymous Danish moderators might find it amusing.
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Old 31st March 2017, 10:24 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
I am pursuing Mr. Baxter's proof of the mere existence of his 'god' as a starting point to evaluate that 'god's' piusaance anent TOBS.
I am sure his god can clear any obstacle in the children's gymkhana of fences and fallacies.

Oh, and, anent. Nice!
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Old 31st March 2017, 02:43 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
yawn

I am way behind and need some sleep. I'd suggest that if y'all want to have a spiritual witness that God is real, read and pray about the Book of Mormon. Even if you think it;s factually incorrect. I promise you it'll be time well-spent.

I have a doctor's appointment in the morning, so I'm off to bed.

bb
It's nice to see your not rejecting medicine entirely, Why I'm not sure.
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Old 31st March 2017, 03:14 PM   #128
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For those who await my proof that God exists and then reject the way of faith and prayer (a major cop-out), I don't know how to convince you. This life is a test to see if we will walk by faith. Without faith no man pleaseth God.

bb
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Old 31st March 2017, 03:40 PM   #129
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I'm glad you agree that it's a major cop-out to suggest faith and prayer when asked for evidence of your assertions.

So now we've established that you have no evidence for them, I guess there's no more to be said.
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Old 31st March 2017, 03:48 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
It's nice to see your not rejecting medicine entirely, Why I'm not sure.
I want to make it clear that I don't believe that all pain in the body is punishment from God; nor do I reject modern medicine (isn't that a Jehovah's Witness belief?). I only know my own experiences and the conclusions I've drawn based on them. As is abundantly apparent, my experiences are not the "norm."

bb
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Old 31st March 2017, 03:57 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
For those who await my proof that God exists and then reject the way of faith and prayer (a major cop-out), I don't know how to convince you. This life is a test to see if we will walk by faith. Without faith no man pleaseth God.

bb
There is no need to have faith in that which does not exist.
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Old 31st March 2017, 03:57 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
For those who await my proof that God exists and then reject the way of faith and prayer (a major cop-out), I don't know how to convince you. This life is a test to see if we will walk by faith. Without faith no man pleaseth God.

bb
My Dear Mr. Baxter:

It is, in fact, you who are resorting to "cop-out", offering nothing but platitudes about "praying hard enough" when asked for concrete, practical, empirical, objective, non-anecdotal evidence of the existence of your 'god', to say nothing of its purported puissance. You also appear to be ignoring the fact that many of us did, in fact try the sincere-prayer-and-scripture-study path, and found it wanting--producing, as it did, not one indication of the existence of the 'god' to which we were praying, and for which we were so sincerely seeking (some of us, I venture having done so since well before you were born).

Since you admit that you have no actual evidence of the existence of your 'god', going on about the BS "messages" from it seems a bit of a snipe hunt. And that is without even considering the inherent deficiencies in the effect, even were everything as you claim.

Oh, well.

I remain, unconvincedly yours, &ct.
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Old 31st March 2017, 04:12 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
God provides a witness which is described as a burning in the bosom, that we shall feel that it is right and true in our hearts.

bb
No. It was the Joseph Smith character who made that claim. I can't think of a single reason to believe anything that Joseph Smith character says. Can you?
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Old 31st March 2017, 04:15 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Mormonism is true. TOBS is just a theory based on my experiences and speculations. TOBS isn't Mormonism.

bb
OK. Let's just throw the night soil out with the bathwater. Mormonism is a peculiar brand of superstition based on non-evidence.
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Old 31st March 2017, 04:17 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
My Dear Mr. Baxter:

It is, in fact, you who are resorting to "cop-out", offering nothing but platitudes about "praying hard enough" when asked for concrete, practical, empirical, objective, non-anecdotal evidence of the existence of your 'god', to say nothing of its purported puissance. You also appear to be ignoring the fact that many of us did, in fact try the sincere-prayer-and-scripture-study path, and found it wanting--producing, as it did, not one indication of the existence of the 'god' to which we were praying, and for which we were so sincerely seeking (some of us, I venture having done so since well before you were born).

Since you admit that you have no actual evidence of the existence of your 'god', going on about the BS "messages" from it seems a bit of a snipe hunt. And that is without even considering the inherent deficiencies in the effect, even were everything as you claim.

Oh, well.

I remain, unconvincedly yours, &ct.
straw man--I never said you didn't get a witness because you "didn't pray hard enough."

straw man--I never said I "have no actual evidence" of God's existence. You are rejecting my evidence as unacceptable as you recite your tired litany of "objective, non-anecdotal, white-bread-only-please" list of the limited forms of evidence you will accept.

If you reject the evidence, then (to you) there is no evidence.

bb
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Old 31st March 2017, 04:17 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
Again, God provides the proof when you read, study and pray about the Book of Mormon.

bb
No he/she/it doesn't. There are no gods.
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Old 31st March 2017, 04:18 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
For those who await my proof that God exists and then reject the way of faith and prayer (a major cop-out), I don't know how to convince you. This life is a test to see if we will walk by faith. Without faith no man pleaseth God.

bb
You do know this is a forum populated by atheists, agnostics, skeptics, etc., right?

What you just said, nobody here believes. No-one is going to start praying, reading religious texts, searching for god or whatever, just because you say so.

I've spent enough time examining my beliefs and religion to have discarded faith and prayer and scriptures. I'm not going to (I doubt anyone is) start reading any old religious text and praying about it just because someone on a web forum says to do so. No-one is going to do that because no-one here believes in your religion. Many of us have been down the religion road, have found it sorely wanting, and have abandoned it. Nobody is going to walk down that road again, reading scripture and praying about it, just because some dude (you) on the web tells them they need to.

You need to start ponying up evidence and rationale, not giving us imaginary people with imaginary medical problems and how you likely think your TOBS is going to cure their imaginary problems, combined with just telling people to read religious texts and pray when they don't believe what you have to say.

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Old 31st March 2017, 04:18 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
TOBS is not divination, [...]

bb
Is too.
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Old 31st March 2017, 04:20 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
straw man--I never said you didn't get a witness because you "didn't pray hard enough."

straw man--I never said I "have no actual evidence" of God's existence. You are rejecting my evidence as unacceptable as you recite your tired litany of "objective, non-anecdotal, white-bread-only-please" list of the limited forms of evidence you will accept.

If you reject the evidence, then (to you) there is no evidence.

bb
What you accept as evidence isn't.
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Old 31st March 2017, 04:21 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
God provides a witness which is described as a burning in the bosom, that we shall feel that it is right and true in our hearts.

bb
According to whom? I'm not taking the word of any alledged deity who provides Joseph Smith and Billy Baxter as spokespersons.
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Old 31st March 2017, 04:31 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
No. It was the Joseph Smith character who made that claim. I can't think of a single reason to believe anything that Joseph Smith character says. Can you?
yes I can, mostly because I have a testimony that the Book of Mormon is true. It's not rocket science--to get a testimony of the BofM and subsequently of JS, you must follow the instructions in Moroni 10:3-5 and James 1:5.

How sad it would be if you never got that testimony because you don't believe there were european swallows with orange feathers in ancient America, and therefore never read the BofM.

bb
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Old 31st March 2017, 04:40 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
yes I can, mostly because I have a testimony that the Book of Mormon is true. It's not rocket science--to get a testimony of the BofM and subsequently of JS, you must follow the instructions in Moroni 10:3-5 and James 1:5.

How sad it would be if you never got that testimony because you don't believe there were european swallows with orange feathers in ancient America, and therefore never read the BofM.

bb
Off-topic

This signature is intended to irritate people.
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Old 31st March 2017, 04:40 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
According to whom? I'm not taking the word of any alledged deity who provides Joseph Smith and Billy Baxter as spokespersons.
i'm flattered, but i'm not God's spokesperson.

i must be emphatic: TOBS is not Mormonism and Mormonism is not TOBS.

I probably should not be teaching my own speculations as gospel truth.

bb
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Old 31st March 2017, 09:24 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
yes I can, mostly because I have a testimony that the Book of Mormon is true. It's not rocket science--to get a testimony of the BofM and subsequently of JS, you must follow the instructions in Moroni 10:3-5 and James 1:5.

How sad it would be if you never got that testimony because you don't believe there were european swallows with orange feathers in ancient America, and therefore never read the BofM.

bb
Yes but Jesus died because he was too crazy or stupid to un**** himself when the Romans decided to turn him into performance art.
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Old 31st March 2017, 09:28 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
i'm flattered, but i'm not God's spokesperson.

i must be emphatic: TOBS is not Mormonism and Mormonism is not TOBS.

I probably should not be teaching my own speculations as gospel truth.

bb
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emba..._States,_Tokyo

There's a perfectly good thread right here to talk about Mormonism.
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Old 31st March 2017, 11:02 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
straw man--I never said you didn't get a witness because you "didn't pray hard enough."
My Dear Mr. Baxtrer:

Funny, I thought it was you who made the claim that if one prayed hard enough, and read the "scriptures", then 'god' would provide evidence of its existence. If that is not an accurate characterization of your beliefs, perhaps you might deign to explain what it is you mean by what you said.

If, on the other hand, that is, in fact, a fair characterization of your beliefs, then the idea that the fault of one who has, in fact, studied "scripture" and has, in fact, spent many, many years in sincere prayer and seeking, and still has received no sign from 'god' of its existence must lie in the sincerity and diligence of the searching and praying. Again, perhaps you might deign to explain where, in your opinion, the fault in such a case would lie.. It would also be preferable if your response were couched in something beyond sophomoric dismissals.

However, without clarification from you, my statement is not, in fact a person of straw argument, but a reductio. I do hope you will deign to clarify.

Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
straw man--I never said I "have no actual evidence" of God's existence. You are rejecting my evidence as unacceptable as you recite your tired litany of "objective, non-anecdotal, white-bread-only-please" list of the limited forms of evidence you will accept.'
On the other hand,this is, in fact, a person-of-straw argument, as I never said any such thing. It is dishonest of you to put it in quotes, pretending that I said it. What I did actually say (and you are free to read it) was to ask for actual evidence, not anecdote. Your dismissal of the description of evidence that would satisfy Bacon, or James, as "limited forms of evidence", when that is, in fact, the standard of evidence demanded by science, only demonstrates that you are in thrall to a superstition; that what "evidence" you have does not rise beyond anecdote.

Providing actual evidence (and, since you clammed it, I will repeat the characteristics of "good" evidence--concrete, practical, non-anecdotal, empirical, objective evidence) is hard. It is much, much easier to be swayed by one's assumed consequent.

Unfortunately, assuming one's consequent does not rise to any actual level of what might be accurately termed evidence; else 'Squatch were already proven to exist.

It is incorrect, and dishonest, of you to complain that I "reject" your evidence when you, yourself, admit that your "evidence" is no more than your personal conviction, and your anecdotes about your personal conviction; when I clearly state the kind of evidence about which I asked, and for which I requested. You do, in fact, have no such thing; therefore it is incorrect, and dishonest, of you to accuse me of employing a person-of-straw argument.

I do, in fact, reject your superstitious anecdotes as examples of objective, empirical evidence, in the same way that I reject the silly stories of Mohammed flying on a wingéd horse as "evidence"; or the stories of Lord Ganesh bringing all into being by inscribing the first upon the void with his self-sacrificially broken tusk; or the stories of Dawn Girl prescribing a kina'alda' cake to be "studded with raisins, and an axe handle wide", when the Diné knew neither the raisin or the axe before the mid-19th century C.E.

You have, in fact, admitted that you have no actual evidence for the mere existence of your 'god', much less its puissance.

How much more tired are your anecdotes than my careful descriptions of what Bacon or James would accept?

Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
If you reject the evidence, then (to you) there is no evidence.

bb
If your "evidence" consists of nothing but anecdote, and if you, yourself, have to encourage the seeker to overlook the manifestly incorrect factual claims of the BOM, your "evidence" is not even worth "rejecting"--it simply is not concrete, nor non-anecdotal, nor empirical, nor objective.

I remain, factually yours &ct.
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Old 31st March 2017, 11:09 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
yes I can, mostly because I have a testimony that the Book of Mormon is true. It's not rocket science--to get a testimony of the BofM and subsequently of JS, you must follow the instructions in Moroni 10:3-5 and James 1:5.

How sad it would be if you never got that testimony because you don't believe there were european swallows with orange feathers in ancient America, and therefore never read the BofM.

bb
And again, this is, in fact, a person-of-straw argument, as it ignores the several testimonies of those of who have told you that they (we) have, in fact, read the BOM (and the much more patently fraudulent PoGP) and found them factually wanting.

I commend you to a website, for your further edification: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

I remain, helpfully yours &ct.
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Old 31st March 2017, 11:11 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
i'm flattered, but i'm not God's spokesperson.

i must be emphatic: TOBS is not Mormonism and Mormonism is not TOBS.

I probably should not be teaching my own speculations as gospel truth.

bb
...and the light dawns.
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Old 31st March 2017, 11:35 PM   #149
Billy Baxter
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Slowvehicle, all I can say, again, is:

if you reject the evidence, there is no evidence.

bb
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Old 31st March 2017, 11:41 PM   #150
MikeG
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BB, that is spurious. You have presented no evidence.
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Old 1st April 2017, 12:08 AM   #151
Billy Baxter
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OK, I wasn't going to say this, but it's clear I should unmuddy the waters a bit. I suffer from a grievous learning disorder: whenever I try to grok complex thoughts, I get awful pains in my legs. These pains continue and get worse and worse for the duration of my attempted learning/thinking/communicating session. I cannot hold down a job or successfully go to school because of these muscular pains (I think it's called "myalgia.") I'm a fairly intelligent man; I just can't think straight without getting in moderate to severe pain.

bb

ETA: I'm what is known as a high-functioning idiot savant.

Last edited by Billy Baxter; 1st April 2017 at 12:16 AM.
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Old 1st April 2017, 02:10 AM   #152
Craig4
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I'm sorry you have that problem. However, that doesn't make TOBS real; it doesn't make a god real; and it doesn't make the BoM accurate.
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Old 1st April 2017, 02:54 AM   #153
bluesjnr
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
OK, I wasn't going to say this, but it's clear I should unmuddy the waters a bit. I suffer from a grievous learning disorder: whenever I try to grok complex thoughts, I get awful pains in my legs. These pains continue and get worse and worse for the duration of my attempted learning/thinking/communicating session. I cannot hold down a job or successfully go to school because of these muscular pains (I think it's called "myalgia.") I'm a fairly intelligent man; I just can't think straight without getting in moderate to severe pain.

bb

ETA: I'm what is known as a high-functioning idiot savant.
This is entirely irrelevant to the subject.

I am moved to, somewhat incorrectly, use the phrase "medice, cura te ipsum.
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Old 1st April 2017, 03:42 AM   #154
sackett
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I once knew a man who suffered from headaches whenever he landed a job. His old lady supported him and their kids.

Don't think he was a Mormon, but he might have been.

Or am I thinking of Joseph Smith?
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Old 1st April 2017, 03:49 AM   #155
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Myalgia cannot be caused just by thinking about something, it's a symptom of physical injuries and illnesses.

Symptoms without physical causes used to be called psychosomatic, these days they seem to be grouped under something called MUPS:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medi...sical_symptoms

Taking what the OP says at face value (though the possibility that we have another Janadele type troll obviously cannot be ruled out) the likeliest explanation seems to me to be that the crackpot Mormon belief that God can communicate via bodily sensations, and the intense pressure placed on Mormons to experience such "testimony", have screwed him up so badly that his unconscious mind is generating all sorts of imaginary sensations (including pain) in addition to the expected "burning in the bosom". But I am not a doctor.
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Old 1st April 2017, 04:01 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter
Anyway, I know how to stop virtually any pain that is manifesting as a body signal--if not permanently, then at least temporarily.
Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
OK, I wasn't going to say this, but it's clear I should unmuddy the waters a bit. I suffer from a grievous learning disorder: whenever I try to grok complex thoughts, I get awful pains in my legs. These pains continue and get worse and worse for the duration of my attempted learning/thinking/communicating session. I cannot hold down a job or successfully go to school because of these muscular pains (I think it's called "myalgia.") I'm a fairly intelligent man; I just can't think straight without getting in moderate to severe pain.
Have you tried your method on yourself? If so, and it doesn't work, then why doesn't it work?
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Old 1st April 2017, 06:08 AM   #157
Slowvehicle
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
Slowvehicle, all I can say, again, is:

if you reject the evidence, there is no evidence.

bb
My Dear Mr. Baxter:

Had you presented any actual evidence, any concrete, practical, testable, non-empirical, objective evidence, and had I "rejected" that, then, and only then, would your accusation be honest, or justified.

You have presented no such thing. You have, in fact, admitted that you have no such thing, both in what you have said, and in what you have failed to say.

Do not give yourself airs, and pretend that you have made a reasonable showing of evidence which is being willfully ignored. You have, in fact, presented no evidence at all; you have, at best, talked about your feelings, and made assertions about what you have felt.

You have also failed to address the situation of a person who sincerely and assiduously reads and studies "scripture", and sincerely prays, for years, and still has no encounter with your 'god' (nor yet with any 'gods').

This is only germane in that it is...odd...of you to expect anyone to accept your assertions about your BS "messages" from your internally-experienced anecdotal 'god', when you cannot even begin to make the showing that such a 'god' even exists.

To repeat: I have not "rejected" any concrete, practical, empirical, non-anecdotal, objective evidence you have presented, because you have yet to present any, at all.

I remain, unsurprisedly yours &ct.
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Last edited by Slowvehicle; 1st April 2017 at 06:16 AM.
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Old 1st April 2017, 06:15 AM   #158
Slowvehicle
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
OK, I wasn't going to say this, but it's clear I should unmuddy the waters a bit. I suffer from a grievous learning disorder: whenever I try to grok complex thoughts, I get awful pains in my legs. These pains continue and get worse and worse for the duration of my attempted learning/thinking/communicating session. I cannot hold down a job or successfully go to school because of these muscular pains (I think it's called "myalgia.") I'm a fairly intelligent man; I just can't think straight without getting in moderate to severe pain.

bb

ETA: I'm what is known as a high-functioning idiot savant.
My sincere sympathy for your affliction does not prevent me from asking a question, and making an observation.

The question: why is it that your TOBS, which you touted (IIRC) as being able to stop any pain manifested as 'body signals', does not provide you at least temporary releif?

The observation: You have yet, at least on this forum, to demonstrate the kind of "exceptional skills" or "unusual brilliance" that would identify a savant. Might I be so bold as to ask you the source of your savant diagnosis?

I remain, sympathetically yours & ct.
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Old 1st April 2017, 06:46 AM   #159
Peregrinus
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I'm what is known as a high-functioning idiot savant.
It would seem you are partially correct.
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Old 1st April 2017, 07:44 AM   #160
Beady
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
OK, I wasn't going to say this, but it's clear I should unmuddy the waters a bit. I suffer from a grievous learning disorder: whenever I try to grok complex thoughts, I get awful pains in my legs. These pains continue and get worse and worse for the duration of my attempted learning/thinking/communicating session. I cannot hold down a job or successfully go to school because of these muscular pains (I think it's called "myalgia.") I'm a fairly intelligent man; I just can't think straight without getting in moderate to severe pain.

bb

ETA: I'm what is known as a high-functioning idiot savant.
Perhaps the pain in your legs is God telling you not to think?

Given the context, it seems a reasonable suggestion.

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