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Old 15th June 2017, 05:59 PM   #41
EHocking
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
Are you sure that you don't have a turtle under there? Could throw the spirit level reading off.
There was a turtle under there, but since it was a Flatback Turtle, I am confident in my error control.
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Old 17th June 2017, 04:43 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
And there's our experiment.
No-one is falling off the earth in Australia, therefore the earth is flat! QED.
thewholesoul: we have done your work for you, but I will kindly allow you to present this conclusive experimental proof to the scientific institution of your choice, as your own work. The Nobel Prize awaits!
My mother went to Australia, she fell off. Definately round.
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Old 17th June 2017, 08:42 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
My mother went to Australia, she fell off. Definately round.
I don't think anyone has denied that your mother was round.
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Old 18th June 2017, 02:33 AM   #44
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Something (well, one thing of many, many) I don't understand about the flat earth idea is how sunrise works.
If the sun is setting in one place on the globe, then it is rising in another on the other side.
If the earth is flat, how could this possibly be? Do they posit two suns, so when one is setting in the west, the other is rising in the east? Or does the sun suddenly speed up as it travels under the earth, so as to be able to rise quickly in the east?

thewholesoul is still noticeably absent. Is it possible he has no experimental evidence? That surely can't be, because that would be contrary to his understanding of science and his standards of evidence, and would thus disprove his own beliefs.

Yoo hoo! Whole soul!! Over here!!!!
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Old 18th June 2017, 07:36 AM   #45
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I believe I've seen an explanation of sunrise on Pratchett's Discworld, but forget just how it works. Other than including that light flows slowly. The Disc, of course, is also rotating, which TWS disputes.
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Old 18th June 2017, 07:37 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Something (well, one thing of many, many) I don't understand about the flat earth idea is how sunrise works.
If the sun is setting in one place on the globe, then it is rising in another on the other side.
If the earth is flat, how could this possibly be? Do they posit two suns, so when one is setting in the west, the other is rising in the east? Or does the sun suddenly speed up as it travels under the earth, so as to be able to rise quickly in the east?

thewholesoul is still noticeably absent. Is it possible he has no experimental evidence? That surely can't be, because that would be contrary to his understanding of science and his standards of evidence, and would thus disprove his own beliefs.

Yoo hoo! Whole soul!! Over here!!!!
They say it goes in circles centered on the North pole.
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Old 19th June 2017, 09:46 AM   #47
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I think you should check out 'The flat earth society' (not tfes). It is so bordering on insanity even Heiwa has found a home there. Along with a certain person who says 9/11 was an inside job based on his/her Phd, 10 years experience, his/her contacts in the trade who all know it's a gubmint setup(as usual) and his/her logic, physics and science.

It also appears that when a ship goes over the horizon it only appears to sink over the horizon because it will get smaller due to 'perspective' but binoculars will bring it back into full view, however the sun seems to get bigger because of the atmosphere as it sinks, the contradiction just doesn't bother them.

Last edited by MinimumWageShill; 19th June 2017 at 09:58 AM. Reason: his to his/her
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Old 19th June 2017, 02:59 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by MinimumWageShill View Post
I think you should check out 'The flat earth society' (not tfes). It is so bordering on insanity even Heiwa has found a home there. Along with a certain person who says 9/11 was an inside job based on his/her Phd, 10 years experience, his/her contacts in the trade who all know it's a gubmint setup(as usual) and his/her logic, physics and science.

It also appears that when a ship goes over the horizon it only appears to sink over the horizon because it will get smaller due to 'perspective' but binoculars will bring it back into full view, however the sun seems to get bigger because of the atmosphere as it sinks, the contradiction just doesn't bother them.
FE have a very simple solution for contradictions. They ignore them. Bring them up enough and they ignore you as well, often accompanied by the requisite flounce.
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:03 PM   #49
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I had to move this link from the other thread because this is just too funny to miss:

Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
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Old 20th June 2017, 07:10 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I believe I've seen an explanation of sunrise on Pratchett's Discworld, but forget just how it works. Other than including that light flows slowly. The Disc, of course, is also rotating, which TWS disputes.
The Discworld's sun passes under the disc at night.
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Old 20th June 2017, 07:51 AM   #51
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Earth is flat .. wait for it .. all around .. hahaha ha ha ..
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Old 23rd June 2017, 01:52 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
They say it goes in circles centered on the North pole.
I've seen those diagrams too, but they really don't work at all unless you handwave in a bunch of physically impossible optical illusions or some such. The flat-earth idiots can't even come close to explaining how a sunrise or sunset works in that model.

To site just one example, how does it happen that high clouds or airplanes are lit by the sun before (sunrise) or after (sunset) the sun is visible on the surface? The geometry just doesn't work for that or for many other simple, naked-eye observations.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 03:37 PM   #53
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It's caused by refraction, you silly .. light bends up on air density gradient. It also causes the sun to go red, cause blue light refracts more. Simply physics rly ;-)
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Old 23rd June 2017, 05:19 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Something (well, one thing of many, many) I don't understand about the flat earth idea is how sunrise works.
If the sun is setting in one place on the globe, then it is rising in another on the other side.
If the earth is flat, how could this possibly be? Do they posit two suns, so when one is setting in the west, the other is rising in the east? Or does the sun suddenly speed up as it travels under the earth, so as to be able to rise quickly in the east?

thewholesoul is still noticeably absent. Is it possible he has no experimental evidence? That surely can't be, because that would be contrary to his understanding of science and his standards of evidence, and would thus disprove his own beliefs.

Yoo hoo! Whole soul!! Over here!!!!
The sun operates in much the same way as a stage spotlight. Combine that with refraction and you get an illusion of sunrise/set.

Yes. It is nukking futs, but that is the claim.
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Old 24th June 2017, 01:17 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
The sun operates in much the same way as a stage spotlight. Combine that with refraction and you get an illusion of sunrise/set.

Yes. It is nukking futs, but that is the claim.
So they are saying it doesn't actually rise or set at all, but instead is switched on and off to simulate sunrise and sunset? At sequenced times that make it look like the earth is round?
You're right, this is a whole new breed of madness.
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Old 24th June 2017, 01:50 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
So they are saying it doesn't actually rise or set at all, but instead is switched on and off to simulate sunrise and sunset? At sequenced times that make it look like the earth is round?
You're right, this is a whole new breed of madness.
It's been a while since I read it up and I have no desire to revisit that cess-pit but from memory...

The sun doesn't switch on/off. it circles directly over the equator at an altitude of approx 3000 km (or miles. oddly 3000 of either depending on nationality) thus, the spotlight effect means that only a portion of the disc illuminated. We don't see it at night, because it isn't pointed our way at that time of day. As it approaches our location, the sun's rays are subtly bent by the atmosphere to give an optical illusion of the sun rising over the horizon, with the reverse being the case at sunset. To provide seasonal variation in the suns altitude, it has a helical path rising higher than 3000 miles/kms in the summer and lower than 3000 miles/kms in the winter.

Oh and there is no gravity, by Newton's Laws the disc is simply accelerating at 9.8 m/s straight up all the time. Doesn't that mean that by now we have surpassed light speed? Sure, but the notion that light speed is a limit is somehow wrong thanks to a jumped up patent clerk in Switzerland.

So what's beyond the Great Antarctic Ice Wall? "They" wont let us find out. Every government in the world contributes to a communal border force atop the Ice Wall and prevents overflight too. (yeah that works out at millions of troops and equipment, but screw it).

That is about as much crazy that I can type at one sitting.
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Old 24th June 2017, 03:30 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
It's been a while since I read it up and I have no desire to revisit that cess-pit but from memory...

The sun doesn't switch on/off. it circles directly over the equator at an altitude of approx 3000 km (or miles. oddly 3000 of either depending on nationality) thus, the spotlight effect means that only a portion of the disc illuminated. We don't see it at night, because it isn't pointed our way at that time of day. As it approaches our location, the sun's rays are subtly bent by the atmosphere to give an optical illusion of the sun rising over the horizon, with the reverse being the case at sunset. To provide seasonal variation in the suns altitude, it has a helical path rising higher than 3000 miles/kms in the summer and lower than 3000 miles/kms in the winter.

Oh and there is no gravity, by Newton's Laws the disc is simply accelerating at 9.8 m/s straight up all the time. Doesn't that mean that by now we have surpassed light speed? Sure, but the notion that light speed is a limit is somehow wrong thanks to a jumped up patent clerk in Switzerland.

So what's beyond the Great Antarctic Ice Wall? "They" wont let us find out. Every government in the world contributes to a communal border force atop the Ice Wall and prevents overflight too. (yeah that works out at millions of troops and equipment, but screw it).

That is about as much crazy that I can type at one sitting.
In the words of Mr. Spock- "Fascinating".
Oh, and thanks for the details: I can imagine the mental courage it took to stare into that particular abyss.

I assume all this has been proven by experiment, and that Daniel and thewholesoul will be along any minute to demonstrate this.

Does anyone know, or claim to know, what causes the Great Torch in the Sky to rotate?
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Old 24th June 2017, 06:10 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I've seen those diagrams too, but they really don't work at all unless you handwave in a bunch of physically impossible optical illusions or some such. The flat-earth idiots can't even come close to explaining how a sunrise or sunset works in that model.

To site just one example, how does it happen that high clouds or airplanes are lit by the sun before (sunrise) or after (sunset) the sun is visible on the surface? The geometry just doesn't work for that or for many other simple, naked-eye observations.
Better yet, the very path the sun takes on the sky doesn't match their theory, most obviously at equinox. At equinox, the sun travels in a straight line at the equator, and in opposite arcs to the north and south.
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Old 24th June 2017, 08:41 PM   #59
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Have a 30 second animation of how the sun orbits above the flat earth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiOhsKAR6OY

I almost forgot, the actual layout of the land mass of the Earth is shown in the UN logo, because those ebil gubbmints can't help throwing out little clues. Because reasons.
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Old 24th June 2017, 08:51 PM   #60
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I got to thinking about this (I know- this way lies madness!), and could not for the life of me visualise how such a model could account for the differing lengths of day and night throughout the year.
The answer, according to highly qualified flat earth scientists, is that the sun changes its orbit.
6 times a year.
This is proved by astrology.

Well, that's me convinced.
I only made it through the first 5 minutes of this "mindblowing proof", and I would recommend the same to anyone interested/ brave enough to check it out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KLd-W--ZjQ
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Old 24th June 2017, 09:49 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Have a 30 second animation of how the sun orbits above the flat earth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiOhsKAR6OY

I almost forgot, the actual layout of the land mass of the Earth is shown in the UN logo, because those ebil gubbmints can't help throwing out little clues. Because reasons.
Yet that this layout would make Australia twice as wide as the US and no one has noticed, simply fails to dawn on them. Nor that it would make NZ far further from Australia than 3 hours by plane. Unless they think that we all use super speed aircraft down here.
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Old 24th June 2017, 11:56 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Given the now lengthy threads on the subject of the earth being flat, and thewholesoul's insistence on being shown experimental evidence for a spherical earth and all that that entails, my question, then, is this:

Have any experiments been performed showing that the earth is flat?

If so, what has the reaction been from the wider scientific community?

If not, what experiments could be done?

I say go to Chicago and do an experiment the easy way.









OR,

You can spread 25 flat earth folks equally spaced apart at the equator and provide them with sextants and instructions on how to use it. Afterward, have them record their readings at exactly 12:00 Zulu time.
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Old 29th June 2017, 03:03 AM   #63
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Why does the Sun supposedly exhibit some special "spotlight" effect, and also suffer not insignificant refraction, in the minds of the flattards? The stars wheel about and suffer not *excessive* extinction due to atmospheric extinction near the horizon, and they are not grossly refracted either. In typical atmospheric conditions, objects outside the atmosphere when seen at the horizon are located by about 1/2 degree, or the diameter of the solar/lunar disk. And speaking of Luna, the same considerations apply (although it does exhibit some 2 degrees of parallax as seen from opposite sides of the Earth.)

If the Sun is supposedly located just a few thousand kilometers above us, how the heck can it subtend the very same angular diameter, exhibit the same brightness, *and* present the same orientation of its pattern of spots, prominences, etc. for all observers over a considerable fraction of the Earth's surface at the same time? The very considerable parallax would throw this notion out the window.

And that the Moon can be seen against the field of stars, we can *directly* and easily observe its parallax; anyone can take photos at the same time across continents and see this for themselves. For the Sun, determining its parallax is less obvious, but indirect means are not hard to undertake. If it were to be as near as just a few thousand kilometers, the parallax would be *huge* (10s of degrees), and there would have to be an *obvious* acceleration in its motion across the sky, instead of the virtually constant rate we see. Such a nearby object *cannot* exhibit anything like a uniform angular speed for observers widely separated by a distance of order the distance to the object. Perspective acceleration is *unavoidable.* And invoking atmospheric refraction ignores the pretty much uniform speed of the stars and the minimal effects of refraction (becoming meaningful only pretty darn near the horizon.)

Nope. The flattards really engage in some outlandish mental gymnastics in their efforts to try to fit their kooky theory to observational reality. Every scheme dreamed up runs into violent conflict with demonstrable observational *evidence* .
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Old 9th July 2017, 07:32 AM   #64
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I thought of this thread at work on Friday. For reasons too boring to go in to, I had to reboot an Inertial Navigation System a number of times. For those who don't know, you can think of an INS as three very accurate gyroscopes in a box, which can very accurately sense small amounts of movement or rotation. Using this movement or rotation information and knowing where you started from, it is possible to accurately track your movement so that you know where you are with a high degree of accuracy. Modern aircraft normally use a kalman-filter blended solution of GPS and INS information for navigation.

Without needing the GPS feed though, one of the things you can do with an INS is a Gyro-Compass align. This is where you sit the box stationary on a bench, apply power, issue a command to the INS, then after about 5 minutes the messages from the INS tell you which way is north, and what your Latitude is. It does this by sensing the very small movements of the box, which was stationary with respect to the lab bench it was placed on, but has moved due to the rotation of the earth around its axis.

Remember, this box is closed off to any other outside world inputs. The only way it can do what it does above is if the box is a) on a rotating planet, which is b) spheroid shaped. It equipment that is sensitive enough to provide direct experimental evidence of both of these facts, without requiring any external input.

Obviously this will make not a jot of difference to your average reality-denier. To them, I am a shill of the system and what I saw will range from "honest but deluded", to "completely fabricated". Of course, as this thread testifies, no methodology or theory will be forthcoming to counter any of my (or millions of other) observations of this system, and the "science" of flat-earth-ology will not advance or contribute meaningfully in any way.
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Old 9th July 2017, 07:38 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by cow_cat View Post
I thought of this thread at work on Friday. For reasons too boring to go in to, I had to reboot an Inertial Navigation System a number of times. For those who don't know, you can think of an INS as three very accurate gyroscopes in a box, which can very accurately sense small amounts of movement or rotation. Using this movement or rotation information and knowing where you started from, it is possible to accurately track your movement so that you know where you are with a high degree of accuracy. Modern aircraft normally use a kalman-filter blended solution of GPS and INS information for navigation.

Without needing the GPS feed though, one of the things you can do with an INS is a Gyro-Compass align. This is where you sit the box stationary on a bench, apply power, issue a command to the INS, then after about 5 minutes the messages from the INS tell you which way is north, and what your Latitude is. It does this by sensing the very small movements of the box, which was stationary with respect to the lab bench it was placed on, but has moved due to the rotation of the earth around its axis.

Remember, this box is closed off to any other outside world inputs. The only way it can do what it does above is if the box is a) on a rotating planet, which is b) spheroid shaped. It equipment that is sensitive enough to provide direct experimental evidence of both of these facts, without requiring any external input.

Obviously this will make not a jot of difference to your average reality-denier. To them, I am a shill of the system and what I saw will range from "honest but deluded", to "completely fabricated". Of course, as this thread testifies, no methodology or theory will be forthcoming to counter any of my (or millions of other) observations of this system, and the "science" of flat-earth-ology will not advance or contribute meaningfully in any way.
Thanks, that's another great example.
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Old 9th July 2017, 08:23 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
I had to move this link from the other thread because this is just too funny to miss:


I came across D. Marble recently due to a debunk video that featured his spirit level "proof". He seems to have only recently discovered the flat-earth movement, and has made 45 videos on the subject in the last two months.

One of my favorites is this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFDo75XeOL0
He proves that the moon is really close... because... something.
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Old 9th July 2017, 08:38 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
I came across D. Marble recently due to a debunk video that featured his spirit level "proof". He seems to have only recently discovered the flat-earth movement, and has made 45 videos on the subject in the last two months.

One of my favorites is this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFDo75XeOL0
He proves that the moon is really close... because... something.
YouTube has to be host to the dumbest people on the planet.
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Old 9th July 2017, 02:37 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Erock View Post
YouTube has to be host to the dumbest people on the planet.
I'm continually amazed that some of the people using the internet are even able to turn a computer on.
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Old 10th July 2017, 08:24 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'm continually amazed that some of the people using the internet are even able to turn a computer on.
Assumes facts not in evidence.
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Old 10th July 2017, 08:55 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Erock View Post
YouTube has to be host to the dumbest people on the planet.
He's got loads of dumb videos. His latest is about the popular flat-earth claim that moonlight somehow sucks heat energy out of things; that it's a "cold light". He even does a poorly controlled experiment to "prove" it.

But that zooming in on the moon video has to be the crystal duh ascendancy. "Look how cool my camera is! I can make those distant trees look really close. Now watch me make the moon look really close! Ergo, the moon is really close!". I get the impression that he thinks that the farther away an object is, the less a zoom lens assembly can magnify it. As in, if it can magnify trees a mile away 50X, then it can only magnify something 240,000 miles away by maybe 2X. It's hard to tell just how spectacularly wrong he is because he never actually details his claim.
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Old 10th July 2017, 09:30 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'm continually amazed that some of the people using the internet are even able to turn a computer on.
I have doubts that some of them are even capable of dressing themselves. Of course, they could be sitting in front of the computer naked in their mom's basement.
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Old 10th July 2017, 09:39 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
He's got loads of dumb videos. His latest is about the popular flat-earth claim that moonlight somehow sucks heat energy out of things; that it's a "cold light". He even does a poorly controlled experiment to "prove" it.

But that zooming in on the moon video has to be the crystal duh ascendancy. "Look how cool my camera is! I can make those distant trees look really close. Now watch me make the moon look really close! Ergo, the moon is really close!". I get the impression that he thinks that the farther away an object is, the less a zoom lens assembly can magnify it. As in, if it can magnify trees a mile away 50X, then it can only magnify something 240,000 miles away by maybe 2X. It's hard to tell just how spectacularly wrong he is because he never actually details his claim.
I think I ran across the one about moonlight taking heat out of things. My thought was that an object exposed to the open sky at night is going to be subject to more radiational cooling than something under cover, and the effect of moonlight (which would in theory have a slight warming effect) is negligible in practice. Of course it's entirely possible that the clown is just lying about it.
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Old 10th July 2017, 12:48 PM   #73
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I did some looking to this after a question was asked about the source of the notion.

This whole idea of a cold moon seems to stem from Victorian flat Earth nutjob Samuel Rowbotham claiming that there was a Lancet article proving that concentrated moon rays cooled a thermometer. The March 8th of the Lancet from 1856 has this

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?...ew=1up;seq=267

which is about insanity and discusses the 'Morbid phenomena of lunar light'.

It does not report directly any such experiment, merely mentioning observations made elsewhere - some of which are unsourced hearsay. It also reports contradictions to those observations. The article refers to François Arago, an eminent French astronomer who did pioneering work on the nature of light.

In Popular Astronomy Volume 2, published in 1858, Arago refers to comments made by Louis XVIII to French scholar Laplace about the influence of 'red moons' on harvests. Arago went to discuss this with the king's Parisian gardeners and found them to have a number of observations about the moon on plants - observations mentioned in the Lancet article. Arago, however, found such observations to be unfounded and contradicted by evidence from experiments with thermometers.

This is the Popular Astronomy volume

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...me%202&f=false

and you can find the report on page 309.

Rowbotham's statement would therefore appear to be a either a misunderstanding or a deliberate misrepresentation of reports from other studies.
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Old 10th July 2017, 01:01 PM   #74
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It's indeed a proof that youtube can be used by complete idiots. Thumbs up I guess !
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Old 12th July 2017, 12:39 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Something (well, one thing of many, many) I don't understand about the flat earth idea is how sunrise works.
If the sun is setting in one place on the globe, then it is rising in another on the other side.
If the earth is flat, how could this possibly be? Do they posit two suns, so when one is setting in the west, the other is rising in the east? Or does the sun suddenly speed up as it travels under the earth, so as to be able to rise quickly in the east?

thewholesoul is still noticeably absent. Is it possible he has no experimental evidence? That surely can't be, because that would be contrary to his understanding of science and his standards of evidence, and would thus disprove his own beliefs.

Yoo hoo! Whole soul!! Over here!!!!
The sun doesn't actually set, it's a kind of spotlight that circles above the flat earth and it's some trick of perspective that makes it appear to set. Wen the sun is further away than the vanishing point it appears to dip below the horizon.
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Old 12th July 2017, 02:31 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by alexi_drago View Post
The sun doesn't actually set, it's a kind of spotlight that circles above the flat earth and it's some trick of perspective that makes it appear to set. Wen the sun is further away than the vanishing point it appears to dip below the horizon.
Indeed, and I have already linked to a video purporting to explain how this works. Apparently, the sun changes orbit every few months, though strangely no explanation is given as to how this works.
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Old 12th July 2017, 03:21 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by alexi_drago View Post
The sun doesn't actually set, it's a kind of spotlight that circles above the flat earth and it's some trick of perspective that makes it appear to set. Wen the sun is further away than the vanishing point it appears to dip below the horizon.
The problem is that this is simply not how perspective works.
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Old 12th July 2017, 11:25 AM   #78
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That the earth is not flat can be proved by observation.
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Old 12th July 2017, 01:17 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Better yet, the very path the sun takes on the sky doesn't match their theory, most obviously at equinox. At equinox, the sun travels in a straight line at the equator, and in opposite arcs to the north and south.
Which brings up an interesting point that I've mentioned to many a flat earth cultist. The ancient astronomers who came up with the cosmology common to the civilizations of Babylon, Sumer, Egypt etcetera, were far smarter than Rowbotham and his sycophants. They couldn't travel far or fast enough to realize that the earth is spherical, but they got the general idea of the motion of the celestial objects right. This is because they actually made careful geometric observations, unlike the modern flaties. The only reason that Rowbotham had to invent his preposterous model of the sun and moon revolving on a plane parallel to and above the flat earth is because by the 19th century, it was plainly known to anyone with even a rudimentary education that the sun was not shining everywhere on earth at the same time, nor was it night everywhere at the same time. The geometry of that model is impossible to reconcile with the way we actually see the cosmos move around us, but then so is the ancient model with the sun revolving on a plane intersecting a flat plane earth. The zetetic nuts simply had to chose which major problem they wanted to ignore.
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Old 12th July 2017, 01:28 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The problem is that this is simply not how perspective works.
That D. Marble guy tried the "vanishing point" apologetic recently, so I did the math to see just how far something 3000 miles above a flat plane would need to be to appear to be 0.5° of arc (about the angular size of the sun) above the horizon. It turned out to be 343,770 miles away from the observer. To appear 0.25° from the horizon it would have to recede to 687,540 miles. When I pointed out the miniscule angular size that a 26 mile diameter circle would have at those distances it was almost comical. It will likely come as no surprise that mathematics tend to make him rather upset.
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