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Old 23rd June 2017, 03:53 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Perhaps there is some rebellion there. But what am I rebelling against? I suggest that it is the tyranny of ignorance and willful stupidity. And that is something worthy of rebellion.

That one can simply claim some thing is true and then insist we should submit to the doctrine of a ridiculous totally unproven creator is absurd. The story of God and Jesus although containing a few uplifting messages is on the whole ridiculous. It is a cult of human sacrifice. This story is for the gullible and the indoctrinated.
I can only imagine something disillusioned you terribly.

Think of mankind's existence. Life has always been bloody hard. Neolithic and cro-magnon man (our ancestors) lived in caves. There were no shops or supermarkets or transport. They had to go out every day foraging and catching animals - invariably eaten raw - against a backdrop of woolly mammoths, wild boar, wolves, all kinds of predators. Do you think they hugged trees all day?

The idea of an easy life is a myth. It's no good blaming the Almighty if you were told life is a bed of roses and it turns out it is not.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 03:54 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Only the faithful can believe something like this and simultaneously believe that God is just and all loving.
He has always been faithful to me.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 03:55 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This fall happens in Genesis.
Actually this fall happens in Paradise Lost by John Milton. It is not described in the Bible.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 03:59 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post

.........

As you know, the end times culminate in Jesus (St Michael) fighting hand to hand with the dragon (Lucifer) who is currently locked up in a dark pit with Abaddon guarding over him. (No, not that one.)

At the end of his thousand year reign, which we are in now, there will be Armaggeddon and all of earth's empires will fade away.

Remarkable similarity with the Islamic belief about the end of the world, which has Jesus Christ slaying the Anti-Christ, who has been captive in chains on an island in the Red Sea for a couple of thousand years.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 04:03 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
He has always been faithful to me.

You are one of the chosen few then? What about the rest of us poor shmucks who are off to an eternity of wailing and gnashing our teeth?
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Old 23rd June 2017, 04:04 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Oh well, yeah, insofar as the material world belongs to the Wicked One (as Luther calls the devil). When Jesus was in the desert forty days and forty nights, the Wicked One came by and tried to tempt him. He took him to a high point and said, 'All this will be yours [meaning the world] if you bow down and worship me.'

In other words, the world is owned by Lucifer. And yes, Jesus is in constant battle with this fallen angel. In Matthew he says, 'I saw Lucifer fall from the sky'

This fall happens in Genesis.

Jesus says his city is not made by human hand.

As you know, the end times culminate in Jesus (St Michael) fighting hand to hand with the dragon (Lucifer) who is currently locked up in a dark pit with Abaddon guarding over him. (No, not that one.)

At the end of his thousand year reign, which we are in now, there will be Armaggeddon and all of earth's empires will fade away.
This is not what I mean. Read about the Marcion of Sinope the creator of the first canon for the New Testament. He believed Yahweh existed but he wasn't the Heavenly Father that Jesus spoke of.

That first New Testament only included eleven books grouped into two sections: the Evangelikon based on Luke with parts removed that did not agree with his views, and the Apostolikon, a selection of ten epistles of Paul the Apostle (also altered to fit his views),whom Marcion considered the correct interpreter and transmitter of Jesus' teachings. The gospel used by Marcion does not contain elements relating to Jesus' birth and childhood, although it does contain some elements of Judaism, and material challenging Marcion's ditheism.

There was no Revelations
There was also the Gnostics which some said Marcion was. The point is people fought and suppressed the different Christian ideologies.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 04:06 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Remarkable similarity with the Islamic belief about the end of the world, which has Jesus Christ slaying the Anti-Christ, who has been captive in chains on an island in the Red Sea for a couple of thousand years.
Amazing isn't it? Many of the bible's stories were stolen from other religions and Islam steals from the bible. Coincidence? I think not.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 04:12 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Actually this fall happens in Paradise Lost by John Milton. It is not described in the Bible.
OK fair enough. However, clearly there was a revolt by angelic beings either before the creation of the world or after it, but before the fall of Adam and Eve.

Quote:
Satan’s fall was a direct result of his self-exaltation that was manifested in his pride, the first sin (I Timothy 3:6). Motivated by pride, Satan set out on an irrational course to seize for himself God’s authority over the universe (Isaiah 14:12-14). Some commentators believe that this revolt of Satan towards God occurred after the creation week, but before the fall of man (Genesis 1:31; 3:1-6).

It appears that the Devil became the prince of this world when he led man (Adam and Eve) to sins against God and thus brought the ruler of earth under his domination (Genesis 1:26:3:1-6; John 12:31; Colossians 1:13; Acts 26:18). (PRACTICAL CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY, by Floyd H. Barackman, p. 176)
http://www.biblesprout.com/articles/...n-cast-heaven/

Whether one believes this or not, it is undeniable there is a battle between the forces of good and evil.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 04:13 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Remarkable similarity with the Islamic belief about the end of the world, which has Jesus Christ slaying the Anti-Christ, who has been captive in chains on an island in the Red Sea for a couple of thousand years.
You do know Islam borrows heavily from Judaism and Christianity...?
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Old 23rd June 2017, 04:15 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
You are one of the chosen few then? What about the rest of us poor shmucks who are off to an eternity of wailing and gnashing our teeth?
You have a choice. Freewill.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 04:20 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
This is not what I mean. Read about the Marcion of Sinope the creator of the first canon for the New Testament. He believed Yahweh existed but he wasn't the Heavenly Father that Jesus spoke of.

That first New Testament only included eleven books grouped into two sections: the Evangelikon based on Luke with parts removed that did not agree with his views, and the Apostolikon, a selection of ten epistles of Paul the Apostle (also altered to fit his views),whom Marcion considered the correct interpreter and transmitter of Jesus' teachings. The gospel used by Marcion does not contain elements relating to Jesus' birth and childhood, although it does contain some elements of Judaism, and material challenging Marcion's ditheism.

There was no Revelations
There was also the Gnostics which some said Marcion was. The point is people fought and suppressed the different Christian ideologies.
It's true there has been controversy over including Revelation (note the singular) and which 'John' it was written by.

Gnostics are a form of inward-looking naval gazers, who believe you can come to understand God by 'knowing thyself', or inward contemplation.

Christianity is nothing to do with the 'Eastern' concept of meditation and coming to God which is within yourself.

Christianity is not inward looking, quite the reverse.

There are lots of interesting theories. But that's all they are.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 04:21 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Whether one believes this or not, it is undeniable there is a battle between the forces of good and evil.
I deny it.

There is just no mention of a battle in the Bible. The theology you cite postdates Milton. The Isaiah verse comes closest to describing any kind of "battle" between Satan and God, but even that is merely a description of the sin of pride.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 04:23 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You have a choice. Freewill.
I have three questions for you Vixen.

1. Is God omniscient? (Does he have perfect foreknowledge.?)

2. Is he he the creator of everything?

3. Did he have choices or decisions when created everything?
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Old 23rd June 2017, 04:24 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Amazing isn't it? Many of the bible's stories were stolen from other religions and Islam steals from the bible. Coincidence? I think not.
It seems to happen all the time:

"He gave an eye for wisdom. More than that, for knowledge of runes, and for power, he sacrificed himself to himself. He hung from the world-tree, Yggdrasil, hung there for nine nights. His side was pierced by the point of a spear, which wounded him gravely."

This signature is intended to irritate people.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 04:26 PM   #135
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Old 23rd June 2017, 04:26 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I was raised in the church. I went to Sunday School and services every Sunday. I went to Vacation Bible School in the summer and Bible camp as a teenager. I was involved in church activities all the way through college. But in all that time I doubt I had read more than a few chapters/books from start to finish. What i had read was almost all from the New Testament and even more specifically the Gospels.

I felt that I had been cheating my faith. After all, I had read War and Peace and many other big books. Shouldn't I commit myself to reading all of God's holy word? So I did. And the more I read, the more I hated it and the more I started to disbelieve. By the time I finished it I was an atheist.

I have heard other atheists tell similar stories. The Old Testament is so horrible and disgusting that I wouldn't want to have anything to do with God even if he did exist. I'm convinced that the best way to get people to turn away from this religion is for them to just read about Jephthah, Saul, Joshua and the non stop evil atrocities.

Does this sound familiar? Am I wrong?
No, you're not alone, but from my experience, if my mom ever decided to read the bibble -- which she believes 100% is literal even though she has no clue what's written in it beyond what priests quote at mass -- she'd decide that it's the will of god and is therefore just, or would make up some excuse as to why it no longer applies.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 04:29 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I really can't fathom why anyone would say God is moral.
At least the Greek gods had no pretense about being moral. They were just really strong.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Many of us deconverted as a result of an increased interest in the bible, and subsequent research. For me, it was not specifically the old testament barbarism, but questions of doctrine.
For me, it was simply an increasing sense that the story didn't make sense.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 04:33 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I have three questions for you Vixen.

1. Is God omniscient? (Does he have perfect foreknowledge.?)

2. Is he he the creator of everything?

3. Did he have choices or decisions when created everything?
1. If you read Genesis, it very clearly states the 'Elohim' which is a Hebrew plural. From this we understand God is a panel of forces, as it were. He speaks through the prophets, so it suggests he can forsee the future and warn or proclaim people of it.

2. God is the maker of heaven and earth.

3. When he created the world, Genesis clearly says, 'And God saw that it was good'.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 04:36 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
It seems to happen all the time:

"He gave an eye for wisdom. More than that, for knowledge of runes, and for power, he sacrificed himself to himself. He hung from the world-tree, Yggdrasil, hung there for nine nights. His side was pierced by the point of a spear, which wounded him gravely."

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The logos: in the beginning was the word.

The Old Norse tales come largely from the C9 (Ninth Century). There is very little written Old English even, so what makes you think it is not a copying of Genesis in retrospect?
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Old 23rd June 2017, 04:40 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The logos: in the beginning was the word.

The Old Norse tales come largely from the C9 (Ninth Century). There is very little written Old English even, so what makes you think it is not a copying of Genesis in retrospect?
The Eddas were written down in the 9th Century, by a Christian scholar, Snorri Sturlusson. The lore itself predates any Christian contact with the area by a considerable time.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 04:50 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The Eddas were written down in the 9th Century, by a Christian scholar, Snorri Sturlusson. The lore itself predates any Christian contact with the area by a considerable time.
That's a good point. Mind you, the purpose of the runes, to a C9 scholar such as Sturlusson, was surely anybody's guess...?
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Old 23rd June 2017, 04:56 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's true there has been controversy over including Revelation (note the singular) and which 'John' it was written by.
That was just one book and the idea of Hell, the rapture and Armaggeddon are dependant on it. But that first canon didn’t include Matthew, Mark or John
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Gnostics are a form of inward-looking naval gazers, who believe you can come to understand God by 'knowing thyself', or inward contemplation.
I wouldn't describe it this way but they didn't see Jesus as a physical being but a spiritual one. These were many of the early Christians. Keep in mind there is no contemporary account outside of the Bible that Jesus even lived. Paul was it's greatest proselytiser. But that doesn't mean he was any more right than the Gnostics were about the story of Jesus. All of the Gospels were anonymous. We don't have a clue who wrote them or the validity of a single Glenn story.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Christianity is nothing to do with the 'Eastern' concept of meditation and coming to God which is within yourself.
Christianity is not inward looking, quite the reverse.

There are lots of interesting theories. But that's all they are.
And you know all this how? What makes you so sure that the canonical choices of the council of Nicea in 325 AD are more right than the canonical choices of Marcion made 200 years earlier? Or the beliefs of the Gnostics?

I fully admit I don't know. But I also submit it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone today to know either.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 04:59 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
OK fair enough. However, clearly there was a revolt by angelic beings either before the creation of the world or after it, but before the fall of Adam and Eve.

http://www.biblesprout.com/articles/...n-cast-heaven/

Whether one believes this or not, it is undeniable there is a battle between the forces of good and evil.
So why did the serpent only speak the truth in Genesis while God told a whole string of porkie pies?
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Old 23rd June 2017, 05:01 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
OK fair enough. However, clearly there was a revolt by angelic beings either before the creation of the world or after it, but before the fall of Adam and Eve.
Yes, we clearly see that in the fossil record.

Quote:
Whether one believes this or not, it is undeniable there is a battle between the forces of good and evil.
Who's the good one?
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Old 23rd June 2017, 05:04 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The logos: in the beginning was the word.

The Old Norse tales come largely from the C9 (Ninth Century). There is very little written Old English even, so what makes you think it is not a copying of Genesis in retrospect?
You mean like how the Genesis account is plagiarised from the Gilgamesh tale?
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Old 23rd June 2017, 05:04 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I have three questions for you Vixen.

1. Is God omniscient? (Does he have perfect foreknowledge.?)

2. Is he he the creator of everything?

3. Did he have choices or decisions when created everything?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
1. If you read Genesis, it very clearly states the 'Elohim' which is a Hebrew plural. From this we understand God is a panel of forces, as it were. He speaks through the prophets, so it suggests he can forsee the future and warn or proclaim people of it.

2. God is the maker of heaven and earth.

3. When he created the world, Genesis clearly says, 'And God saw that it was good'.
Sigh. Why can't I ever get straight answers from Christians?

Nevertheless,If God created everything with perfect foreknowledge than free will is an illusion. God knew I would be an atheist and you would be a Christian and 3/4 of humanity would spend an eternity in hell. That isn't free will.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 05:08 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
You mean like how the Genesis account is plagiarised from the Gilgamesh tale?
It had become public domain by then, Abaddon.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 05:09 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
1. If you read Genesis, it very clearly states the 'Elohim' which is a Hebrew plural. From this we understand God is a panel of forces, as it were. He speaks through the prophets, so it suggests he can forsee the future and warn or proclaim people of it.

2. God is the maker of heaven and earth.

3. When he created the world, Genesis clearly says, 'And God saw that it was good'.
None of those are answers to AC's questions.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 05:15 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
1. If you read Genesis, it very clearly states the 'Elohim' which is a Hebrew plural. From this we understand God is a panel of forces, as it were. He speaks through the prophets, so it suggests he can forsee the future and warn or proclaim people of it.
*sigh* We have been over this before Vixen. You clearly do not understand how the hebrew language works, or about the history of el/elohim/baal/yhvh etc.

And you did not answer the question.


Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
2. God is the maker of heaven and earth.
AND evil, according to tanakh ("OT").


Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
3. When he created the world, Genesis clearly says, 'And God saw that it was good'.
This does not answer acbytesla's question.

ETA: ninja'd by Argumemnon

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Old 23rd June 2017, 05:39 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I have three questions for you Vixen.

1. Is God omniscient? (Does he have perfect foreknowledge.?)

2. Is he he the creator of everything?

3. Did he have choices or decisions when created everything?
Well, I will have a go.

1. No. Genesis explicitly makes plain that God is NOT omniscient. Nor omnipresent. Nor omnipotent. More akin to grampa bumbling around in the back yard. These are not my claims, it is what the book actually says.

2. Ambiguous. The bible doesn't say either way. Nevertheless, it is strongly implied that other modes of creation exist.

3. Careful reading reveals that there was indeed some form of celestial competitive race going on.

It's a puzzle why exactly it might be that christians do not read their own book.

ETA: Of course when this is pointed out, your christian du jour will claim that it is a "metaphor". A metaphor for what, exactly? And now they are committed to the idea that some parts of the bible are not actually true at all. In my time I have seen so much backpedalling.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 05:55 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Well, I will have a go.

1. No. Genesis explicitly makes plain that God is NOT omniscient. Nor omnipresent. Nor omnipotent. More akin to grampa bumbling around in the back yard. These are not my claims, it is what the book actually says.

2. Ambiguous. The bible doesn't say either way. Nevertheless, it is strongly implied that other modes of creation exist.

3. Careful reading reveals that there was indeed some form of celestial competitive race going on.

It's a puzzle why exactly it might be that christians do not read their own book.
What I love is the idea that Judaism/Christianity is supposed to be monotheistic and yet if you read many of the passages it basically admits that there are other gods.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 05:56 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
3. Careful reading reveals that there was indeed some form of celestial competitive race going on.
I think the "celestial competitive race going on" was because the priests/scribes who put the tanakh together did not edit very well. To put it mildly. They left in the various canaanite gods, as well as the midian/edomite new comer god, YHVH, and referred to ALL of them as if they were the new comer god YHVH. Plus, they tried to erase his wife, Asherah.




Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
It's a puzzle why exactly it might be that christians do not read their own book.
^ Exactly. Which is why Vixen thinks there is a "satan/devil/wicked one/lucifer" in the "OT". It is not there. Neither is hell.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 06:07 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What I love is the idea that Judaism/Christianity is supposed to be monotheistic and yet if you read many of the passages it basically admits that there are other gods.
Judaism did not become monotheistic until after the Babylonian captivity (among the elite class). Even then the common people continued to worship local gods. Our calendar, still in use today, has Babylonian gods. On the hebrew calendar, we are currently entering the month called 'Tammuz' which was a Babylonian god.

I never understood why christianity is called "monotheistic" since there are three gods. I know, I know, the "three" are *really* "one", but I think that oddity only makes sense to christians.

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Old 23rd June 2017, 06:19 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What I love is the idea that Judaism/Christianity is supposed to be monotheistic and yet if you read many of the passages it basically admits that there are other gods.
IIRC during Exodus it's rather clear that the Egyptian priests also have their own gods, since they are able to turn their staves into snakes. Moses' snake is just bigger (subtle!).
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Old 23rd June 2017, 06:23 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
I never understood why christianity is called "monotheistic" since there are three gods. I know, I know, the "three" are *really* "one", but I think that oddity only makes sense to christians.
No, I can confirm that it doesn't. It never made sense to me. Neither did omnipresence, nor the redemption through the sacrifice of Jesus. In fact, it only makes sense to people who are long dead, and whose beliefs and understanding of the world matched that of those who wrote the various books contained therein.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 06:33 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Judaism did not become monotheistic until after the Babylonian captivity (among the elite class). Even then the common people continued to worship local gods. Our calendar, still in use today, has Babylonian gods. On the hebrew calendar, we are currently entering the month called 'Tammuz' which was a Babylonian god.

I never understood why christianity is called "monotheistic" since there are three gods. I know, I know, the "three" are *really* "one", but I think that oddity only makes sense to christians.
The whole thing drove me crazy. I'm used to studying very hard subjects and every single one started hard and became easier the more I studied. Religion is exactly the opposite. It onlying becomes more convoluted. There's an exception to all logic. I don't want to learn it in any more depth. But how people came to these ideas is interesting.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 06:44 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't want to learn it in any more depth. But how people came to these ideas is interesting.
I am one of the jewish atheists, and yes, still celebrate the holidays because it is tradition and part of my ethnic identity.

But I do like to study ancient near east history and archaeology because I think it is interesting how the beliefs formed. (Plus, digging in the ground is fun).

But, KNOWING how the beliefs formed, and that the information is available to EVERYONE, makes me completely unable to understand how anyone still believes in god(s)!!!!!
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Old 23rd June 2017, 06:45 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post

I never understood why christianity is called "monotheistic" since there are three gods. I know, I know, the "three" are *really* "one", but I think that oddity only makes sense to christians.
Well c'mon. They are fairy tales. Actually fan fiction. They all make it up as they go. The Trinity is actually easy to understand when you come to the realization that it doesn’t have to make sense. God is also three and all three is one. See? It's easy.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 06:48 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The whole thing drove me crazy. I'm used to studying very hard subjects and every single one started hard and became easier the more I studied. Religion is exactly the opposite. It onlying becomes more convoluted. There's an exception to all logic. I don't want to learn it in any more depth. But how people came to these ideas is interesting.
I think it's wider than religion. I think that every evidence-based, reality-based philosophy or discipline becomes clearer with time and knowledge. In contrast, counter-factual ideologies by their very nature become more complex because they keep having to dodge the contradictions they get between reality and theory.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 06:50 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
But, KNOWING how the beliefs formed, and that the information is available to EVERYONE, makes me completely unable to understand how anyone still believes in god(s)!!!!!
And not even cool gods like we used to have. Boring, all-powerful gods who don't cheat on their wives, make demigod babies, strike you down at a whim or send heroes on marketable adventures.
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