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#1601 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 13,676
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I think most people would try to save those daughters, even if they had to sacrifice themselves for it. "Oh well, I'll just kill them myself and save the Gestapo the effort," is not the first thought for most people.
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Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand? |
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#1602 |
Becoming Beth
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 20,946
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You might want to check yourself on this one. One of the enduring legal precedents established at Nuremberg was that obeying the law and following orders was not a defense against a war crime. Prison camp guards actually were convicted (and some executed) even after fruitlessly trying that defense for their actions. |
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"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it." ![]() *********************************************** "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." - Saul Bellow |
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#1603 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,196
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That is not the issue. There is no way, in the conditions of Masada, that parents could have saved their children by sacrificing themselves. If there had been, of course that is what they should have done.
By killing their children, the occupants of Masada were not primarily saving the Romans some irksome effort. The Romans were happy to take prisoners, whom they could enslave, or torture to death on the cross or in the arena, as an example and deterrent to other potential rebels. |
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#1604 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 725
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IF you had read your bible, you would see were it specifically gives the age of Sarah as 90 years old.
Genesis 17:17 "And Avraham fell on his face and rejoiced, and he said to himself, "Will [a child] be born to one who is a hundred years old, and will Sarah, who is ninety years old, give birth?" Genesis 17:19 "God said, "Indeed, your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you shall name him Isaac, and I will establish My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his seed after him." Genesis 17:21 "My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this time next year." Also, IF you had read the bible, you would see that in verse 1 it is YHVH who is speaking and not angels. Animal sacrifices did NOT need to a "first born". IF you read your bible you would know this. First born animals were to be given to god. That does NOT mean that all other sacrifices were first born animals. They were NOT. You can huff and puff and rant that everyone is lying about you not having read your own holy book, but you have proven over and over again in your posts that you do not know what is actually written in it. And you REFUSE to answer the questions in this thread about WHERE in the bible you got your false beliefs from. |
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#1605 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 13,676
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Actually, the issue is that we're going deeper and deeper down a red herring.
See, we started from religious human sacrifice, and more specifically child sacrifice. Which wasn't done (at any age) to save them from some enemy, but to appease a god. Incidentally once you do read the (possibly libellous, but still the only ones we have) accounts of such sacrifices, it's hard to imagine WHAT worse fate were they saving them from. E.g., the kids sacrificed to Tlaloc first had their fingernails pulled out (to make sure they cry, because Tlaloc was a god of water and rain,) before being marched crying and terrorized to have their hearts cut out from their living body. Meanwhile for the phoenicians we're told that babies were burned alive, or actually even more horrifically, GRILLED alive by being placed well above the fire pit in the hands of a bronze statue. Even accounting for the smaller mass and volume of a kid, it would take probably something like half an hour to an hour to die that way, so WTH was the worse alternative they were saving them from? Being dashed on the rocks or run through by some invader would have actually been the more merciful alternative. But anyway, it was done because some god would hopefully like it. And to return to the bible, Abraham also wasn't saving Isaac from anything. It was just to show God that he's really THAT obedient. But anyway, THAT was what we were talking about. And THAT was the context in which it was argued that only religion could make someone do something that horrible to their children. Vixen pulled a bit of sleight of hand, as apologists tend to, and replaced that with the red herring of saving kids from the Gestapo. They tend to do that. When they can't argue what's actually the topic, they substitute it with some red herring that they can justify. And your "issue" is nothing more than a case of "oh, look, I can do a better red herring than Vixen's." Well, of course you can. You're a smart guy. And generally it's not hard to outdo those who just reach for the first irrelevant idiocy that lets them go back to faith instead of thinking. Of course you can do better -- including a better red herring -- if you use your brain, than someone who just did the first red herring that lets them go back to NOT using their brain. It's the nature of the beast that using your brain > not using it. But... what's the purpose of helping with a better red herring? |
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Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand? |
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#1606 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 12,288
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I have the paperback The Nuremburg Trials and iirc only about 300 were hanged.
The vast majority of German citizens (of whom eight million were card carrying NAZI party members [say that was one per family, that is a huge proportion of active supporters] and very few were found guilty of any crime. |
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If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb |
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#1607 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 12,288
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I said God [who was] with the two angels. You seem determined to misquote me. Incidentally lambs were purchased or brought with the hordes travelling to Jerusalem precisely for sacrifice on the altar by the priest/kohain/rabbi or whatever he is called. No, these would not have been first born, but I suspect the criterion they had to be male was largely fulfilled. |
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If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb |
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#1608 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 725
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#1609 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 725
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Again, IF you had read your bible, you would know that it was the priests that made the sacrifices. The hebrew word for "priest" is "kohen" and has NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING to do with a rabbi. A rabbi is a teacher, not a priest.
Then why did you keep insisting (falsely) that animal sacrifices had to be "first born"? |
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#1610 |
Becoming Beth
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 20,946
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"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it." ![]() *********************************************** "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." - Saul Bellow |
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#1611 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 12,288
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It is a basic tenet that you cannot apply the law in retrospect. For example, suppose tomorrow it becomes law in England we must all drive on the right.
You would not be able to prosecute all those people who drove on the left yesterday, as it simply wasn't on the statute as of that date. The Nuremberg trials had to bring in a special war crimes category to deal with those at the top responsible for the third reich policies and management. However, the ordinary German - ordinary like you and me - who just carried out orders from their government did not break the law in the true meaning of the word as it was statute that certain groups of persons were to be eliminated. So back to the issue: if you are born into an oppressive regime, how do you effectively 'choose to do good'? The vast majority of Germans had no problem doing evil. A good Christian, Bonhoeffer, a pastor, stood up to it. He was executed. What would an atheist do? How would an atheist stand up to it? Bear in mind vast tracts of the world are atheist. Russia, China (only 7% profess a religion, mostly Buddhism [although 'ancestor worship' is popular]), a large part of Africa. OK so they have laws. But where is the moral code. How do you find one, if you are inculcated into a culture that has no respect for other people beyond your own group. |
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If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb |
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#1612 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 12,288
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If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb |
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#1613 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 12,288
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If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb |
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#1614 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 725
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#1615 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 725
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#1616 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 12,288
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__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb |
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#1617 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 12,288
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Then why the intellectual dishonesty in putting words and phrases in my mouth? For example your false claim I said all ancient Hebrew tribes sacrificed their first born.
And now another fake claim that I said Sara was 'about' 40. It happens too regularly to be simple miscomprehension. As a debating technique it is horrible. |
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If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb |
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#1618 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 725
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#1619 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 12,288
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If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb |
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#1620 |
Observer of Phenomena
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 56,749
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While 90 is indeed greater than 40, it is also greater than 50, 60, 70 and 80. Why did you choose such a low number for it to be greater than?
As it turns out, the low average age at death was mainly a result of high child mortality. If you made it to age 20, you were fairly likely to make it into your 60s or 70s, especially if you existed during the Old Testament (in which people routinely lived for hundreds of years). The idea that ancient people generally only lived until about age 40 is a myth. |
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"This quote was taken out of context." - Randall Munroe |
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#1621 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,196
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#1622 |
Becoming Beth
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 20,946
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The Nuremberg trials and the ones that followed quite cheerfully convicted people for acts which followed the law when they were committed. This was, in fact, the strongest of the criticisms against the proceedings. For just the reasons you mention. None the less the precedent was established. And is enshrined in international law and even in many military codes of conduct.
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"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it." ![]() *********************************************** "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." - Saul Bellow |
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#1623 |
Mafia Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 18,557
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Goebbels also killer their children in April 1945. That is, Magda did - Joseph was too chicken. And, going out on a limb, they would have not been (horribly) murdered by the Soviets.
I don't think you need to be particularly religious for such an act, just a fanatic. It's not even clear if the Sicarii, a subset of the Zealots, were that religiously fanatic. But they were fanatic enough to start their own little civil war within the Jewish War. ETA: that said, the mass suicide at Masada was rational IMHO. Their fate at the hands of the Romans would have been much, much worse. |
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Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa" "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf |
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#1624 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,492
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Ah. Right. You see the vast majority of christians have not read their own holy book and are encouraged not to do so. Certain "nice" passages are freely wheeled around, but those are the "best" bits. Reading the lot would paint a very different picture and we can't have that, right? Speaking personally, I have read it cover to cover and it is a cavalcade of horror.
We further know that our protagonist has not read all of it or even parts of it given the gross errors posted. The simple fact is that most christians rely on a Walt Disney version of the bible and accept what the priest claims is contained therein without actually reading the risible book for themselves. |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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#1625 |
Mafia Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 18,557
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Having been a member of the NSDAP was not considered a crime in itself. Many of those were inactive members, e.g., Kurt Georg Kiesinger, the German chancellor 1966-1969 in the first grand coalition of CDU and SPD.
But quadraginta is fully correct that "just following orders" has not been considered a defence. In the first time after WW2, only the top dogs were prosecuted and the most egregious cases of lower-ranked officials. It was not considered opportune to prosecute everyone who had been involved in the Nazi crime machine; there also had to be a country rebuilt. The last 10, 20 years, German justice has also turned to the smaller cogs in the machine, e.g., Oskar Gröning, the "bookkeeper of Auschwitz". |
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Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa" "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf |
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#1626 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,652
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...or you could be a good man... a hard worker and a good man, like John Frobisher.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY2N8JvOEFw |
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"The cure for everything is salt water - tears, sweat or the sea." Isak Dinesen |
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#1627 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 12,288
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The fact Sara was aged and barren and laughed with incredulity that she would have a baby as told to her by God, who came to her tent with two angels, was what led me to say that she must have been >40 to be 'too old to have a baby'.
Not really sure why this should be controversial. If you want to point out she was actually 90 it can be done nicely. |
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If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb |
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#1628 |
Mafia Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 18,557
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Waging aggressive war was against the Briand-Kellog pact. Mass murder was still not allowed under German law.
I didn't know there was an actual statute that said that Jews, disabled, gypsies, etc., had to be mass murdered. Can you point me to it? Are you really trying to argue that atheists can have no moral code? Must I remind you that the most dedicated in the resistance against the Nazi regime were godless communists? And for your one Bonhoeffer, or Niemöller, the vast majority of the German protestants remained within the Nazi-sympathizing German Evangelical Church. |
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Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa" "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf |
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#1629 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 12,288
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But how? How would they organise? I haven't said atheists do not resist evil - that would be nonsense. I was just curious if their only moral code is the state and 'laws'. There was a student group called the 'White Rose', which was comprised of students, who also were executed but made a difference.
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If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb |
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#1630 |
Observer of Phenomena
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 56,749
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"This quote was taken out of context." - Randall Munroe |
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#1631 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 12,288
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The fact of the matter is, the wide scale atrocities and genocide could not have happened so effectively without the mass cooperation and collusion of the general population. It is wholly falling short to wave it away 'as just a small handful and they got convicted'. (The average sentence BTW was just three years jail, as I recall.)
It is also important to recall that the terms of the Geneva Convention came in AFTER the war and as a result of it:
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If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb |
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#1632 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 725
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Vixen, please see post by abaddon quoted above yours.
There is nothing "controversial". Your critics can OBVIOUSLY see by your posts, and can agree that you have NOT read the bible through. Yes. It can be pointed out by anyone who has read the bible. That, obviously, does not include you. |
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#1633 |
Mafia Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 18,557
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What difference did they make?
Did they hide Jews from the Gestapo? Did they forge ID cards or ration stamps? Did they sabotage the war effort? No, no, no. It may feel good to distribute pamphlets at the university (and so carelessly they got caught), but it didn't save a single life and didn't make the war a minute shorter. The sad fact is that German resistance was little. The communist Rote Kapelle was ineffectual, the Stauffenberg clique was a joke. If you're looking for an effective person among German resistance, I fear you have to choose between Oster and Canaris. |
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Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa" "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf |
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#1634 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 12,288
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__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb |
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#1635 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 12,288
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__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb |
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#1636 |
Observer of Phenomena
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 56,749
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I wouldn't say that describing someone who is 90 as being "over less than half their age" is a minor point. There's a significant difference between a person in their 40s - which is what most people will think of when you say "over 40" - and a nonagenarian.
Even on a discussion forum, it is incumbent on people to choose their words carefully to avoid being misinterpreted. |
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"This quote was taken out of context." - Randall Munroe |
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#1637 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 12,288
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Well actually, abaddon said he was enjoying some quality time with his kids and he could not imagine doing what people may have done in days of yore. I brought up the point that you cannot assume it is ceteris parabus for all people. That we enjoy a highly civilised lifestyle, does not mean that it is 'natural' or 'normal'. It has taken at least 10K years to get to this level of comfort.
Not so long ago children were being brutally killed and I used that as an example to abaddon to help him understand that not all societies have had sentimental feelings towards children. |
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If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb |
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#1638 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 725
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Which of my claims is "unwarranted"?
You have proven over and over again, in countless post on this thread and others, that you do not know what the bible actually says. You keep saying people are "wrong" or "rude" to point that out, but you keep making mistaken claims about what is actually in the bible. And you still have not answered specific questions asked of you in this thread, about WHERE in the bible your mistaken claims (that you claim are true) are. |
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#1639 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 12,288
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The older Germans I know - who were put into POW camps in the UK and their children were bullied terribly at (English) school for being German - come from generations of pastors and they certainly did resist the nazis by holding secret church services and carrying out acts of charity and subversion.
Of course plenty of atheists and civil rights activists are atheists and have strong moral codes. However, say you were born into a so-called IS family. You are brought up to regard the west as your enemy. You reach adulthood. How do you get away from brutal oppressive fundamentalism unless you have some kind of external help? ETA It was a military regime and thus a military command. I did do some research into WWII re the Germans and Russians. I forget the German word for the lightning raids on villages, etc. |
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If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb |
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#1640 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 12,288
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If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb |
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