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Old 24th June 2017, 04:50 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, because if you recall, Adam and Eve chose free will.
They chose free will on behalf of all life on Earth?

If you recall, the Noahide laws came after the flood. Too bad for the rest of life on Earth.
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Old 24th June 2017, 04:50 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What are you talking about? There is no 'human sacrifice'.
Okay, then a god-man sacrifice. According to you, Jesus was in a human body when he was sacrificed, so how is that not a human sacrifice?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As for church services, we follow the Jewish tradition of reenacting events.
Jews never "reenact" eating flesh and blood. That is considered a horrible abomination.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Thus, the bread and wine at Holy Communion is a reenactment of Jesus saying to his disciples, do this in remembrance of me.
Which symbolised his flesh and blood. Considered an abomination to jews.


Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, when you die, you die. Come judgement day, that's when the dead will rise up and be judged.
Nothing superstitious about that. Right.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
God gave his only begotten son to the world to save us all from death.
The human-female-impregnated-by-a-god-and-gives-birth-to-a-demigod-story. Taken straight from previous pagan religions.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
He purchased us with a ransom over the Wicked One and the good news for mankind for is that no more are we condemned to die the inauspicious death of a beast but have the promise of everlasting life, because of God's mercy.
Here we go with the devil again. And all the rest of the superstition.


Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Nobody is forced to take it.
Thank Asherah, Odin, Tammuz, and all the gods for that!
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Old 24th June 2017, 04:51 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
*Cough* Jesus H Christ his own self. If you're denying his humanity and/or his sacrifice, you're not a christian.
It was God who sacrificed Jesus to score a victory over death and the Wicked One, who thought he had overcome him.

Where is death's sting, where death thy victory?

No more are we born to die.

That is the good news.
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Old 24th June 2017, 04:54 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You would think that if God that could tell us not to eat clams or bacon could tell us not to own human beings as property. Particularly after delivering the Jewish people out of bondage.
Look at it this way, and the way Jews and Christians look at it. The scriptures are not a set of unreasonable edicts and debating points, they are a guide to living.

'Your word is a lamp to my feet, and a light on my path' - a psalm of David.
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Old 24th June 2017, 04:56 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Has it never occurred to you that the reason the Flood story is prominent in several culture's accounts, is because it is an historical event that actually happened?
No

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Ancient historians now believe a great flood did indeed occur around the River Euphrates mouth, circa five thousand years ago. Noah may have been wise enough to foresee it and take steps to build his ark. People no doubt did see it as a 'punishment from God' as people often do perceive natural disasters as such.
I have no doubt that floods happened. Just not a worldwide flood or that man built a huge boat and saved 2 of every species of animal.
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Old 24th June 2017, 04:57 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, that is incorrect. God has a band of angels and one, on a par with the archangels, Michael and Gabriel who resided in the second heaven, Lucifer, decided he wanted to be in the third heaven with God and attempted to oust him. He and one third of the angels were expelled from heaven and now roam the earth.
Oh. I see. So are you saying God lied?

Why do I have a strange feeling that you do not even know WHERE in the "OT" that God says he created evil?

And can you supply chapter and verse from the "OT" for the rest of your assertions?

HINT: It does not say that ANYWHERE.


Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Imagine you create a perfect lego world and some evil little kid comes along and spoils it by knocking a few pieces over. You can either knock down the whole lot and start again, or try to eliminate the spoilt bits. This was the problem facing God when Lucifer unleashed his evil on God's perfect world and enticed humans to eat of the tree of good and evil, giving them the capacity to exercise good or evil.
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Old 24th June 2017, 04:58 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
He did tell them that they couldn't keep other Hebrews as perpetual slaves, so He gets partial credit for that - except He didn't tell them until after He scoured the earth of almost all life. What a bastard! Reminds me of my own despicable father.
I see. So do you despise Plato as well, who in his The Republic shows him to disdain the plebs having a say in government, that being left for the elite, in his view.

The Ancient Greeks had a class system which included hapless slaves. Can't see you hurling abuse at Plato.
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Old 24th June 2017, 04:59 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It was God who sacrificed Jesus to score a victory over death and the Wicked One, who thought he had overcome him.

Where is death's sting, where death thy victory?

No more are we born to die.

That is the good news.
So Jesus didn't rise from the dead. Sheesh, make up you mind.
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Old 24th June 2017, 04:59 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, that is incorrect. God has a band of angels and one, on a par with the archangels, Michael and Gabriel who resided in the second heaven, Lucifer, decided he wanted to be in the third heaven with God and attempted to oust him. He and one third of the angels were expelled from heaven and now roam the earth.
[...].
Citation?

Didn't think so.
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:03 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Look at it this way, and the way Jews and Christians look at it. The scriptures are not a set of unreasonable edicts and debating points, they are a guide to living.

'Your word is a lamp to my feet, and a light on my path' - a psalm of David.
Either it happened and it was a command from God or it wasn't? You can't play that it's all just a metaphor and it all happened. Make up your mind.
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:04 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I see. So do you despise Plato as well, who in his The Republic shows him to disdain the plebs having a say in government, that being left for the elite, in his view.

The Ancient Greeks had a class system which included hapless slaves. Can't see you hurling abuse at Plato.
non sequitur. This isn't a thread about Plato.

Please cease deliberately trying to derail this thread. Remember /!\
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:04 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Don't anyone take this bait.

If you provide a 'missing link' between chimps and Homo spp, you'll open up two more gaps. One between chimps and the 'missing link', and one between the 'missing link' and Homo spp.

It's the 'God of the Gaps' argument.
No worries. Definitely not falling for that.

There are also a lot of "missing links" in Vixens "history lesson". They are called "facts". And they are missing.
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:06 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
They chose free will on behalf of all life on Earth?

If you recall, the Noahide laws came after the flood. Too bad for the rest of life on Earth.
If you read Genesis, you will know God gave man dominion over all the earth. Look around you. Have you not noticed we are top of the food chain and do indeed have dominion over the earth. We have dominion over horses, dogs, oxen, domestic animals, we put wild life in zoos, we fish we make the laws.

So that much is true.

Noah being a descendant of Adam and Eve is also knowledgeable of good and evil and subject to mortality (death and disease).
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:07 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
There really needs to be a face palm for such ignorance. There are lots of missing links. How much evidence do you need.?
We all have a common ancestor. Let's call them Adam and Eve.
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:07 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
There really needs to be a face palm for such ignorance.
Definite, desperate need for a face palm emoticon. The ignorance is astounding........
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:09 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
We all have a common ancestor. Let's call them Adam and Eve.
Were they Cro-Magnon or Neanderthal?

Many modern humans still have Neanderthal DNA.

So, which one was Adam and Eve?
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:11 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
So Jesus didn't rise from the dead. Sheesh, make up you mind.
He did. Of course he did. And physically, not just spiritually.

Doubting Thomas - who was just like you - felt his bodily wounds for himself.
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:13 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If you read Genesis, you will know God gave man dominion over all the earth..
If you read Genesis, you will know that man did not condemn all life to aqueous destruction. That was The Big G. Noah didn't even get a vote.
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:13 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Citation?

Didn't think so.
Genesis.
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:13 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, that is incorrect. God has a band of angels and one, on a par with the archangels, Michael and Gabriel who resided in the second heaven, Lucifer, decided he wanted to be in the third heaven with God and attempted to oust him. He and one third of the angels were expelled from heaven and now roam the earth.
Again, all this is non-Biblical. Most of what you think you know about Heaven and Hell isn't from the Bible, it was invented by Milton and Dante Aligheri.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I see. So do you despise Plato as well, who in his The Republic shows him to disdain the plebs having a say in government, that being left for the elite, in his view.

The Ancient Greeks had a class system which included hapless slaves. Can't see you hurling abuse at Plato.
How many people consider Plato's writing to be directly inspired by God? Is The Republic the foundation for one of the world's largest religions? Do people consider Plato to be divine, or even divinely inspired?

No, they don't. They just don't.
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:14 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
We all have a common ancestor. Let's call them Adam and Eve.
Try bacteria, fruit flies, zebra fish, chickens and chimpanzees.
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:14 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Genesis.
Your story is not there.

Try again.
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:17 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
He did. Of course he did. And physically, not just spiritually.

Doubting Thomas - who was just like you - felt his bodily wounds for himself.
I thought you said there was no sting of death?
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:20 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
If you read Genesis, you will know that man did not condemn all life to aqueous destruction. That was The Big G. Noah didn't even get a vote.
None of you have explained where you misguidedly think God promised you a rose garden? We have floods, storms, erupting volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, landslides, avalanches.

Where along the way did you get the idea life should be a bed of roses?

No, it is a struggle for every living being.
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:22 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Try bacteria, fruit flies, zebra fish, chickens and chimpanzees.
You speak for yourself.
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:25 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You speak for yourself.

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Old 24th June 2017, 05:26 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
None of you have explained where you misguidedly think God promised you a rose garden? We have floods, storms, erupting volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, landslides, avalanches.

Where along the way did you get the idea life should be a bed of roses?

No, it is a struggle for every living being.
Yeah, where the heck did this whole idea of a beautiful garden where everything is wonderful and perfect come from anyway?
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:31 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
None of you have explained where you misguidedly think God promised you a rose garden? We have floods, storms, erupting volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, landslides, avalanches.

Where along the way did you get the idea life should be a bed of roses?

No, it is a struggle for every living being.
Does this mean you are not going to answer the questions you were asked?

There a lot of them......
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:32 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Genesis.
I've read Genesis. It's not in there.
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:32 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You speak for yourself.
That is the reality and the evidence is there to support it.
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:34 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
None of you have explained where you misguidedly think God promised you a rose garden? We have floods, storms, erupting volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, landslides, avalanches.

Where along the way did you get the idea life should be a bed of roses?

No, it is a struggle for every living being.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yeah, where the heck did this whole idea of a beautiful garden where everything is wonderful and perfect come from anyway?
Or that God was moral and perfect?
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:34 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
None of you have explained where you misguidedly think God promised you a rose garden?
I didn't say any of that. You're lying and that's a straw man argument.
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:36 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, that is incorrect. God has a band of angels and one, on a par with the archangels, Michael and Gabriel who resided in the second heaven, Lucifer, decided he wanted to be in the third heaven with God and attempted to oust him. He and one third of the angels were expelled from heaven and now roam the earth.
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Citation?

Didn't think so.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Genesis.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Again, all this is non-Biblical. Most of what you think you know about Heaven and Hell isn't from the Bible, it was invented by Milton and Dante Aligheri
Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Your story is not there.

Try again.
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
I've read Genesis. It's not in there.
Vixen?

Will you answer the question?
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:49 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Were they Cro-Magnon or Neanderthal?

Many modern humans still have Neanderthal DNA.

So, which one was Adam and Eve?
All organic creatures, which we are, will share common DNA. Human being share 99.9% of DNA with all other humans. It is that difference which identifies which tribe you are from.

Well, neanderthals are not homo sapiens and it used to be the 'establishment fact' that the two never mixed. Now we know that they did mix and it also calls into question whether all humans did emanate from the same source. The presence of other hominids suggests parallel evolution, possibly in different parts of the world.

My haplotype is of the same as Cheddar Man and Hohlenstein-Stadel Man, which go back circa 8-10K years. The commercial DNA companies say it goes back >48K years, the oldest in Europe, apart from the neanderthal element which predates that. Most Europeans and Asians have a neanderthal strain (up to 4%) and Africans have none, suggesting neanderthals evolved elsewhere than Africa.

However, strangely enough, all haplotypes do go back to one sole couple - ignoring for now the inconvenience of the neanderthal mix.

We know from Genesis, early earth was populated by giants, the Nephilim. this could be an early reference to different types of hominids roaming the planet. Many cultures have 'giant' myths.

One thing I am sceptical of, although we may well have been more primate-like than at present at some point in our evolution, I believe we have always had human form and did not evolve from 'bacteria, flies, chicken and chimps'.

The Adam and Eve theory is well-supported IMV from DNA studies - i.e., of humans evolving from just one original man and woman - so how clever of Genesis to have known this before the scientists did!
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:50 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Vixen?

Will you answer the question?
I'll have to come back to you on that.
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:51 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
All organic creatures, which we are, will share common DNA. Human being share 99.9% of DNA with all other humans. It is that difference which identifies which tribe you are from.

Well, neanderthals are not homo sapiens and it used to be the 'establishment fact' that the two never mixed. Now we know that they did mix and it also calls into question whether all humans did emanate from the same source. The presence of other hominids suggests parallel evolution, possibly in different parts of the world.

My haplotype is of the same as Cheddar Man and Hohlenstein-Stadel Man, which go back circa 8-10K years. The commercial DNA companies say it goes back >48K years, the oldest in Europe, apart from the neanderthal element which predates that. Most Europeans and Asians have a neanderthal strain (up to 4%) and Africans have none, suggesting neanderthals evolved elsewhere than Africa.

However, strangely enough, all haplotypes do go back to one sole couple - ignoring for now the inconvenience of the neanderthal mix.

We know from Genesis, early earth was populated by giants, the Nephilim. this could be an early reference to different types of hominids roaming the planet. Many cultures have 'giant' myths.


One thing I am sceptical of, although we may well have been more primate-like than at present at some point in our evolution, I believe we have always had human form and did not evolve from 'bacteria, flies, chicken and chimps'.

The Adam and Eve theory is well-supported IMV from DNA studies - i.e., of humans evolving from just one original man and woman - so how clever of Genesis to have known this before the scientists did!
Correction, you believe, not know.

Knowing requires evidence, You have none.

I'll further state there is no content or knowledge in the bible that was not already known beforehand.
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:52 PM   #277
Vixen
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Or that God was moral and perfect?
Yes, of course.
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Old 24th June 2017, 05:54 PM   #278
Zivan
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Were they Cro-Magnon or Neanderthal?

Many modern humans still have Neanderthal DNA.

So, which one was Adam and Eve?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
All organic creatures, which we are, will share common DNA. Human being share 99.9% of DNA with all other humans. It is that difference which identifies which tribe you are from.

Well, neanderthals are not homo sapiens and it used to be the 'establishment fact' that the two never mixed. Now we know that they did mix and it also calls into question whether all humans did emanate from the same source. The presence of other hominids suggests parallel evolution, possibly in different parts of the world.

My haplotype is of the same as Cheddar Man and Hohlenstein-Stadel Man, which go back circa 8-10K years. The commercial DNA companies say it goes back >48K years, the oldest in Europe, apart from the neanderthal element which predates that. Most Europeans and Asians have a neanderthal strain (up to 4%) and Africans have none, suggesting neanderthals evolved elsewhere than Africa.

However, strangely enough, all haplotypes do go back to one sole couple - ignoring for now the inconvenience of the neanderthal mix.

We know from Genesis, early earth was populated by giants, the Nephilim. this could be an early reference to different types of hominids roaming the planet. Many cultures have 'giant' myths.

One thing I am sceptical of, although we may well have been more primate-like than at present at some point in our evolution, I believe we have always had human form and did not evolve from 'bacteria, flies, chicken and chimps'.

The Adam and Eve theory is well-supported IMV from DNA studies - i.e., of humans evolving from just one original man and woman - so how clever of Genesis to have known this before the scientists did!
Which one was Adam and Eve? Cro-Magnon or Neanderthal?
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Old 24th June 2017, 06:03 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Which one was Adam and Eve? Cro-Magnon or Neanderthal?
I'll have to come back to you.
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Old 24th June 2017, 06:08 PM   #280
Zivan
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Well, neanderthals are not homo sapiens and it used to be the 'establishment fact' that the two never mixed. Now we know that they did mix and it also calls into question whether all humans did emanate from the same source. The presence of other hominids suggests parallel evolution, possibly in different parts of the world.

<snip>


The Adam and Eve theory is well-supported IMV from DNA studies - i.e., of humans evolving from just one original man and woman - so how clever of Genesis to have known this before the scientists did!
One of these statements is not like the other.......
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