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Tags North Korea incidents , Otto Warmbier , US-North Korea relations

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Old 19th June 2017, 10:32 PM   #41
Bob001
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That's a bit harsh, old chum.
What NK did to this kid is monstrous. But there was no reason in the world for him to be there. Everyone knows the regime is insane, and it has locked up U.S. citizens previously on false or exaggerated charges. Moreover, the U.S. is actually at war, literally, with NK; the Korean War ended with a truce, but there has never been a peace treaty. This isn't any different from somebody getting kidnapped by warlords in Yemen or Somalia. If you play chicken with a drunken truck driver, it shouldn't be a surprise when you get flattened. The world is full of places where you can have an adventure and still get home.
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Old 19th June 2017, 11:04 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This sounds oddly similar to the lecture I'm always giving to young women, about not dressing slutty or accepting drinks from strangers at parties. It's a great lecture for right after they trot out some sob story about being date raped.
Only "oddly" similar in "doesn't sound at all analogous to what I will go on to write next".
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Old 19th June 2017, 11:10 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Everybody is allowed to make a mistake. So he did something stupid.

A callow youth aged 22 takes a souvenir of a North Korea banner and is caught.

You don't think 15 years hard labour and being reduced to a brain-damage coma, caused by respiratory trauma, within a month of the sentence before being sent home near death's door 15 months later, is cruel and unusual punishment?
Sure. But it is not an UNEXPECTED punishment , for anybody having 2 brain cells and following the news. It is like going to saudi arabia and pissing on a koran. When you go to a terrible dictature or state with terrible laws, do not *********** break them.
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Old 19th June 2017, 11:15 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The kid was dumb,but in the end the North Korean Regime was the guilty party, and that people are trying to let Dear Leader off the hook for this is a little disturbing.
I do not think anybody is putting nk off the hook, ultimately they are responsible, you are strawmanning what people says, but neither is the kid off the hook if the allegation are true about trying to remove a sign. That was life ending stupid thing to do. Actually second stupid thing. Going to nk as a tourist was the first one.
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Old 19th June 2017, 11:26 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
From Time Magazine: "A Young Pioneer representative will go through the process last, to make sure the group has gone through smoothly. Warmbier was the last of his group to check in, and thus there was only one non-Korean witness to what happened next: 24-year-old Briton Charlotte Guttridge. When she noticed that he was taking longer than usual, she began to walk over to him, only to be told by an insistent airport official that she had to pass through immigration immediately."
Not curious same happened to me when the us officials wanted a control of what they thought was an invalid passport. The people travelling with you cant see you they dont even know you are getting separated and controlled and you cannot call. I was stuck there 4 hours and my traveller group was asking the police to check where i was.

Separating and no communication is not a special modus operandi as far as i can tell. As for the other objection a few post before, he revognizes that he was not together 24/7 and it is only his assumption the guy would not do that. That is pretty much what family and friends say for any incident out if ghe oridinary. Heck you can find example of that in shooting threads. That is not disculpatory in the least.
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Old 19th June 2017, 11:36 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So nothing like proof.
... in the USA. In North Korea. it's all that's needed.
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Old 19th June 2017, 11:55 PM   #47
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There is no reason for us to believe anything the NK have said about this sad incident since day one.

I am surprised that people still visit there as tourists - don't get me wrong I can understand the curiosity but we know it is probably the most brutal stable regime in the world so you have to know you are taking a huge risk to visit.

There is nothing like we would understand to be "due process" or a "rule of law" - you are entirely at the whims of the state's representatives.
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Old 20th June 2017, 12:10 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
There is no reason for us to believe anything the NK have said about this sad incident since day one.

I am surprised that people still visit there as tourists - don't get me wrong I can understand the curiosity but we know it is probably the most brutal stable regime in the world so you have to know you are taking a huge risk to visit.

There is nothing like we would understand to be "due process" or a "rule of law" - you are entirely at the whims of the state's representatives.
True but I would amend it : "There is no reason for us to believe anything the NK have said about this sad incident since day one. " but neither should we assume they lied from zero to end without evidence. So far all we have is NK contention, a probably extracted confession, a video, and a dead person. It does not sound as improbable as you think that he really did something stupid. I saw people of that age do something pretty much as stupid in middle east, risking wo-knows how many lashes and prison.

If you ask me, what is very probable, is that he got beaten by guards , and when they could not wake him up, they kept him in hospital until he was healed enough that it would be ahrd to find evidence of the beating. That is far more probable than sleeping pills and botulism, knowing what the doctor found up to now. We ll know maybe more after the autopsy. The rest is really open.
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Old 20th June 2017, 12:20 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
What NK did to this kid is monstrous. But there was no reason in the world for him to be there. Everyone knows the regime is insane, and it has locked up U.S. citizens previously on false or exaggerated charges. Moreover, the U.S. is actually at war, literally, with NK; the Korean War ended with a truce, but there has never been a peace treaty. This isn't any different from somebody getting kidnapped by warlords in Yemen or Somalia. If you play chicken with a drunken truck driver, it shouldn't be a surprise when you get flattened. The world is full of places where you can have an adventure and still get home.
While not wanting to defend NK. We do not actually know what happened. The type of brain injury from limited information available sounds like the consequence of oxygen starvation. Possible causes could be attempted suicide by hanging, badly performed waterboarding (a similar death occurred under US interrogation), badly vented heater with consequent carbon monoxide poisoning. What is clear is there is no evidence of actual physical trauma - he was not beaten about the head to cause the injury.
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Old 20th June 2017, 01:06 AM   #50
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If any regime in the world deserved a terrorist attack....

long overdue.


Masked men in black bomb their airport, bomb the police stations, send mail bombs to government stooges.

If only...

Last edited by IIIClovisIII; 20th June 2017 at 01:08 AM.
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Old 20th June 2017, 02:09 AM   #51
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All of this is moot, since there is really nothing that can be done that wouldn't be worse than keeping the status quo.
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Old 20th June 2017, 02:12 AM   #52
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Kim just likes messing with us. They pull all kinds of crazy stunts like this in NK. We will never know exactly what happened or why, just that it really makes no sense at all.
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Old 20th June 2017, 02:18 AM   #53
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Tragic case.
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Old 20th June 2017, 02:19 AM   #54
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I hate to be harsh, but isn't visiting North Korea a bit like climbing Everest?

You do it because it's there. You acknowledge that it's dangerous and some other travelers have not come back, but that's part of what makes 'I went to North Korea' a boast rather than the beginning of a holiday story.
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Old 20th June 2017, 02:50 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So the sanctimonious among us have:

- never taken a souvenir from a hotel (soap, shampoo, towel, even)
Soap and shampoo, I have in the past, but they would be thrown away anyway. Wouldn't take a towel or a robe.
Quote:
- refrained from nicking a road sign with 'Abbey Road' or 'Penny Lane', if given the opportunity
Indeed.
Quote:
- never taken a whole handful (or entire bowlful) of mint sweets at the end of an Indian meal as soon as the waiters take their eyes off you
I wouldn't, and that's before I read this.
Quote:
- never not left a 'suggested donation of £5' when visiting a museum or art gallery?
That's not remotely theft, especially since I'm paying plenty in taxes already if it's a museum in the UK. Doesn't preclude me from making a donation if I choose.


None of those is comparable to what Warmbier confessed to doing, even leaving aside where he chose to do it. The way he was treated was harsh, of course, and may well have been politically motivated, but larking about on a trip to somewhere like North Korea, especially if you are American, is a good way to get into trouble.
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Old 20th June 2017, 03:55 AM   #56
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That car won't start

The fact that there was no wakeup call for him and his roommate from the hotel that morning is odd. IIRC this was in the WaPo story.

According to his confession, an acquaintance from his church was supposed to give Warmbier a car worth $10,000 for the banner. Has this person ever corroborated Warmbier's story? How did this person know that propaganda banners existed? How could Warmbier have read a banner and known it was a propaganda banner and not the directions to the men's room? How did Warmbier get access to a restricted area? How did Warmbier keep the banner hidden from his roommate? I can't make his confession work.
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Old 20th June 2017, 04:26 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
The fact that there was no wakeup call for him and his roommate from the hotel that morning is odd. IIRC this was in the WaPo story.

According to his confession, an acquaintance from his church was supposed to give Warmbier a car worth $10,000 for the banner. Has this person ever corroborated Warmbier's story? How did this person know that propaganda banners existed? How could Warmbier have read a banner and known it was a propaganda banner and not the directions to the men's room? How did Warmbier get access to a restricted area? How did Warmbier keep the banner hidden from his roommate? I can't make his confession work.
See, it's working already.
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Old 20th June 2017, 04:32 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
... in the USA. In North Korea. it's all that's needed.
Nothing is needed in North Korea. If they want to punish you, they'll invent the crime.

Which, given how little video was released and how little it shows, I suspect is exactly what happened here.
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Old 20th June 2017, 04:34 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by IIIClovisIII View Post
If any regime in the world deserved a terrorist attack....

long overdue.


Masked men in black bomb their airport, bomb the police stations, send mail bombs to government stooges.

If only...


And any civilian casualties will just be an......Ooooopsie!
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Old 20th June 2017, 04:37 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
None of those is comparable to what Warmbier confessed to doing, even leaving aside where he chose to do it.
He confessed to doing it. Given that he was being interrogated by North Koreans, his confession need not have any connection to what he actually did. So we have no idea what he chose to do.
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Old 20th June 2017, 04:56 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
There is no reason for us to believe anything the NK have said about this sad incident since day one.

I am surprised that people still visit there as tourists - don't get me wrong I can understand the curiosity but we know it is probably the most brutal stable regime in the world so you have to know you are taking a huge risk to visit.

There is nothing like we would understand to be "due process" or a "rule of law" - you are entirely at the whims of the state's representatives.
+1

North Korea is evil and are responsible for this but going to NK is a bit like a Jew booking a vacation in Nazi Germany.
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Old 20th June 2017, 05:10 AM   #62
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Well, you can buy the propaganda posters in NK if you want one.

http://www.koreakonsult.com/Attracti...pping_eng.html

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...880846bc25.jpg
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Old 20th June 2017, 05:16 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
That's not the good stuff, that's the watered-down versions they sell to tourists.
They just don't do it for me anymore, so I need the harder, domestic propaganda such as the poster Warmbier had.
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Old 20th June 2017, 05:52 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The kid was dumb,but in the end the North Korean Regime was the guilty party, and that people are trying to let Dear Leader off the hook for this is a little disturbing.
And the assassinating his family wasn't a hint as to his character?

Up next vacationing in ISIS controlled territory.
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Old 20th June 2017, 05:53 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Everybody is allowed to make a mistake. So he did something stupid.
Some mistakes have lethal consequences, see the darwin awards.
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Old 20th June 2017, 05:54 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Dumb All Over View Post
Which ones are we missing?
Well we could make more of the peasants starve. Not sure how that would be helpful here.
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Old 20th June 2017, 05:58 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
North Korea just murdered an American citizen. President Trump should not -- and will not -- let this stand. We must go to war ASAP.
Yea that is the kind of thing only US cops should do.

Here killing people in your jails can get you big federal appointments. See Sheriff Clarke.
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Old 20th June 2017, 06:01 AM   #68
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Bomb Pyongyang. Enough is enough.
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Old 20th June 2017, 06:05 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Bomb Pyongyang. Enough is enough.
Kiss Soel goodbye. The millions of pointless south korean deaths are totally not worth anything in this equation.
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Old 20th June 2017, 06:11 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Bomb Pyongyang. Enough is enough.
even a perfect de-capitation strike, including destroying all nuclear launch-capabilities and most of the artillery would leave the world to feed 25 million of mostly hostile North Koreas. Plenty of them would flee to the South, possibly triggering decades of crisis and violence.

There is simply no scenario that doesn't end in millions dying one way or another.
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Old 20th June 2017, 06:29 AM   #71
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More on the supposed used car deal

"In a tearful statement made before his trial, Warmbier told a gathering of reporters in Pyongyang he was offered a used car worth $10,000 if he could get a propaganda banner and was also told that if he was detained and didn't return, $200,000 would be paid to his mother in the form of a charitable donation. Warmbier said he accepted the offer because his family was 'suffering from very severe financial difficulties.'" link

Oh, brother.
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Old 20th June 2017, 06:37 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
- refrained from nicking a road sign with 'Abbey Road' or 'Penny Lane', if given the opportunity
My first gf went to university in Liverpool and her student digs were around the corner from Penny Lane.

They stopped using actual signs years ago as they were stolen almost as quickly as they were installed. They are now painted onto the wall.

[/derail]
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Old 20th June 2017, 07:20 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The sad news on the US student, Otto Warmbier, returned home to his family, is that he has died. He was jailed in North Korea for a prank and sent back to the USA in a coma, after 15 months of his sentence, with brain trauma.
An expensive price to pay for lacking common sense. People seem to throw it out of the window whenever they go on holiday, regardless of whether it's a western capitalist tourist trap, let alone and evil autocratic dictatorship. People do stuff that they wouldn't dream of doing at home, seemingly lulled into some sense that somehow rules and laws don't apply to them, and if they get into "trouble" then their own government will magically wave a wand, make the "trouble" go away, and whisk them home to a hero's welcome.

All that we can hope for is that this is not the spark for the War of Warmbier's Brain.

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Old 20th June 2017, 07:32 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
An expensive price to pay for lacking common sense.
The only mistake we know he made is going to North Korea.
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Old 20th June 2017, 07:40 AM   #75
Chris_Halkides
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the onus is on NK to make a case

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
An expensive price to pay for lacking common sense. People seem to throw it out of the window whenever they go on holiday, regardless of whether it's a western capitalist tourist trap, let alone and evil autocratic dictatorship. People do stuff that they wouldn't dream of doing at home, seemingly lulled into some sense that somehow rules and laws don't apply to them, and if they get into "trouble" then their own government will magically wave a wand, make the "trouble" go away, and whisk them home to a hero's welcome.

All that we can hope for is that this is not the spark for the War of Warmbier's Brain.
None of the evidence (a blurry video; a confession with more tears than logic) that purports to indicate that he took the banner is credible. That doesn't prove he did not take the banner, only that the story told by NK is unsupported.
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Old 20th June 2017, 07:46 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
The fact that there was no wakeup call for him and his roommate from the hotel that morning is odd. IIRC this was in the WaPo story.

According to his confession, an acquaintance from his church was supposed to give Warmbier a car worth $10,000 for the banner. Has this person ever corroborated Warmbier's story? How did this person know that propaganda banners existed? How could Warmbier have read a banner and known it was a propaganda banner and not the directions to the men's room? How did Warmbier get access to a restricted area? How did Warmbier keep the banner hidden from his roommate? I can't make his confession work.
Yeah, sure. The person who prompted Warmbier to his folly must be raring to admit to it! As to propaganda banners, they're often visit in news footage, and are usually heavy on military and/or communist symbolism, rather than text. They're not hard to spot.
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Old 20th June 2017, 08:06 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
None of the evidence (a blurry video; a confession with more tears than logic) that purports to indicate that he took the banner is credible. That doesn't prove he did not take the banner, only that the story told by NK is unsupported.
Is there really any level of evidence that would be convincing? That kind of video combined with statements is enough all the time to justify the police killing people.
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Old 20th June 2017, 08:41 AM   #78
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"Let's arm ourselves strongly with Kim Jong-il patriotism"

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yeah, sure. The person who prompted Warmbier to his folly must be raring to admit to it! As to propaganda banners, they're often visit in news footage, and are usually heavy on military and/or communist symbolism, rather than text. They're not hard to spot.
This banner was entirely text. It is said to mean, "Let's arm ourselves strongly with Kim Jong-il patriotism." Could Mr. Warmbier read Korean? How did he get into a restricted area? How would he know that a banner was there? He was not a member of the church, a member of which is alleged to have encouraged him, according to this CNN article. BTW, posters with paintings and text can be purchased in a department store, as a commenter here has documented.
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Old 20th June 2017, 08:45 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Everybody is allowed to make a mistake. So he did something stupid.

A callow youth aged 22 takes a souvenir of a North Korea banner and is caught.

You don't think 15 years hard labour and being reduced to a brain-damage coma, caused by respiratory trauma, within a month of the sentence before being sent home near death's door 15 months later, is cruel and unusual punishment?
What's cruel and unusual in the World is pretty much kid-glove treatment in NK.

If you offered me sole ownership of Apple I wouldn't set foot in NK.
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Old 20th June 2017, 08:53 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
even a perfect de-capitation strike, including destroying all nuclear launch-capabilities and most of the artillery would leave the world to feed 25 million of mostly hostile North Koreas. Plenty of them would flee to the South, possibly triggering decades of crisis and violence.

There is simply no scenario that doesn't end in millions dying one way or another.
So then they act with impunity. They really are more powerful than America.
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