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Tags North Korea incidents , Otto Warmbier , US-North Korea relations

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Old 20th June 2017, 09:25 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
So then they act with impunity. They really are more powerful than America.
No we act with impunity too. Kidnapping and torturing innoncent people due to minor mistakes of identity rather like in Brazil(the movie).

These things happen is all.
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Old 20th June 2017, 09:34 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
And any civilian casualties will just be an......Ooooopsie!
Potentially less bloody than a full scale revolution, which, at this point probably wont happen anyway.

To come to think of it, a terrorist group probably could not operate effectively in NK
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Old 20th June 2017, 09:42 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Some mistakes have lethal consequences, see the darwin awards.
I don't buy it. I don't subscribe to the idea, 'He knew North Korea had tough laws. He should have abided by them.'

Even if technically he's guilty, the punishment is grossly disproportionate and contravenes international human rights. Trying to ascertain whether Warmbier did or did not steal the poster is playing to North Korea's unreasonable agenda.

At the most it should have been a fine. Or if you want to make an example of the guy, give him three months and then deport him.
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Old 20th June 2017, 09:45 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
While not wanting to defend NK. We do not actually know what happened. The type of brain injury from limited information available sounds like the consequence of oxygen starvation. Possible causes could be attempted suicide by hanging, badly performed waterboarding (a similar death occurred under US interrogation), badly vented heater with consequent carbon monoxide poisoning. What is clear is there is no evidence of actual physical trauma - he was not beaten about the head to cause the injury.
Seems unlikely, as North Korea would have been quick to claim it was self harm.

If a healthy young guy of 22 had a cardiac arrest, or some other trauma to his respiratory organs (to cause brain tissue loss), then we are highly pushed to understand how and why.
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Old 20th June 2017, 09:48 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I hate to be harsh, but isn't visiting North Korea a bit like climbing Everest?

You do it because it's there. You acknowledge that it's dangerous and some other travelers have not come back, but that's part of what makes 'I went to North Korea' a boast rather than the beginning of a holiday story.
If a travel agency is offering it, people will be buying the tours. I recall an acquaintance who was over the moon at getting a fabulously cut price holiday package to ... Beirut. We had to gently tell him it was a war zone (at the time).

What was that Dead Kennedy's number...?
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Old 20th June 2017, 09:52 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Edited by kmortis:  Removed previously moderated content and response to same


It was the Obama administration which tried to make the Warmbier family shut up about his imprisonment, and the Trump admin which pushed to get him released. And there were some lefty outlets who basically said he got what he deserved:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/la-sha...b_9531122.html
"Yeah, I’m willing to bet my last dollar that he was aware of the political climate in that country, but privilege is a hell of a drug. The high of privilege told him that North Korea’s history of making examples out of American citizens who dare challenge their rigid legal system in any way was no match for his alabaster American privilege.
...
I’m a black woman though. The hopeless fear Warmbier is now experiencing is my daily reality living in a country where white men like him are willfully oblivious to my suffering even as they are complicit in maintaining the power structures which ensure their supremacy at my expense."

http://www.salon.com/2016/03/02/this...ium=socialflow
“North Korea isn’t a playground for college pranks, Kim Jong-un isn’t a fictional character from a Seth Rogen movie, and Pyongyang isn’t some game you play with Coors Light and Solo cups,” Wilmore continued. “It’s just tough for me to have much sympathy for this guy and his crocodile tears.”

I have never read such OTT hyperbole.
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Old 20th June 2017, 10:01 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
What's cruel and unusual in the World is pretty much kid-glove treatment in NK.

If you offered me sole ownership of Apple I wouldn't set foot in NK.
Some guy who owned a mini-cab company near me was caught taking in 2kg of heroin at the Chinese border. He was executed, and this caused a diplomatic incident between UK and China.

Punishment has to be proportionate, even in countries with little concern for human rights.
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Old 20th June 2017, 10:14 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I don't buy it. I don't subscribe to the idea, 'He knew North Korea had tough laws. He should have abided by them.'

Even if technically he's guilty, the punishment is grossly disproportionate and contravenes international human rights. Trying to ascertain whether Warmbier did or did not steal the poster is playing to North Korea's unreasonable agenda.

At the most it should have been a fine. Or if you want to make an example of the guy, give him three months and then deport him.
And in the US we cut water and kill people because they are mentally ill. This really isn't a big deal. They even promoted the sheriff in charge of that gave him national office.
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Old 20th June 2017, 10:16 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Some guy who owned a mini-cab company near me was caught taking in 2kg of heroin at the Chinese border. He was executed, and this caused a diplomatic incident between UK and China.

Punishment has to be proportionate, even in countries with little concern for human rights.
Being a white person really doesn't offer you protection no matter where you go.
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Old 20th June 2017, 10:17 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Some guy who owned a mini-cab company near me was caught taking in 2kg of heroin at the Chinese border. He was executed, and this caused a diplomatic incident between UK and China.

Punishment has to be proportionate, even in countries with little concern for human rights.

Isn't disproportionate punishment one of the signs of a country lacking in human rights legislation?


The bottom line, I'm afraid, is that regardless of 'should', North Korea can act with impunity in cases like this. North Korea have to do something bad enough for the rest of the world to be prepared to say "Shame about Seoul" and invade or carpet bomb.

Right up until that point, the North Korean leadership can do what they like, sadly.

I feel sorry for the boy, but I really do think anyone going to North Korea is making a foolish move in the first place - and no, not foolish enough to deserve this.
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Old 20th June 2017, 10:23 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post

Punishment has to be proportionate, even in countries with little concern for human rights.
Presumably you mean "should be proportionate"
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Old 20th June 2017, 10:25 AM   #92
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Something which should have been done a long time ago.
No one is denying the kid was stupid, but these attempts to basically excuse North Korea de facto murder of the kid are truly disgusting. If it has reached the point where some on the left are sympathizing with Dear Leader then we are in trouble.
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Old 20th June 2017, 10:27 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And in the US we cut water and kill people because they are mentally ill. This really isn't a big deal. They even promoted the sheriff in charge of that gave him national office.
God, you are equating the US with North Korea????????????????????

Reminds me of those on the left who kept telling us during the 30's and 40's what a wonderful guy Uncle Joe Stalin was.
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Old 20th June 2017, 10:28 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Something which should have been done a long time ago.
No one is denying the kid was stupid, but these attempts to basically excuse North Korea de facto murder of the kid are truly disgusting. If it has reached the point where some on the left are sympathizing with Dear Leader then we are in trouble.
It is the scorpion and the frog. We know the nature of north korea.

At least if it was something that earned a death sentence in Saudi Arabia he would have had a chance for diplomatic intervention if it was something like defecating on a Quran.
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Old 20th June 2017, 10:31 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
God, you are equating the US with North Korea????????????????????
I am saying people die in custody everywhere, why make this more than it is? It isn't a big deal when an american dies in custody due to poor treatment in the US so why is it a big deal in north korea where you expect that kind of thing?

Why are you not holding us to the high standard you are holding north korea to? We need to do better here. OF course a crazy dictatorship is a crazy dictatorship, but when we are doing the same things you are condemning them for it seems like you only care when they do it and not when good american cops kill innocent people.

And we can do things like reform the Milwaukee sheriff's department and send people to prison for killing people without starting a war that will kill at least hundreds of thousands.
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Old 20th June 2017, 10:35 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
So then they act with impunity. They really are more powerful than America.
Like ISIS, North Korea has discovered the way to cancel the US military supremacy: act like it doesn't exist.
By not playing the game of "who's got the bigger gun" and instead just declare yourself the winner, these actors have taken away the power of threats: they can't be intimidated.

The only possible trick is to pretend to play along whilst undermining their support.
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Old 20th June 2017, 10:36 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
So then they act with impunity. They really are more powerful than America.
Pretty Much, Yeah.
The US already has just about every economic sanction you can have in place against NK,(and we will probably put the last one in place with a Travel Ban)
and it has not impacted their behavior.
The only thing left is Military Action. And that would be long and incredibly bloody. Quick, clean, decpatation strikes work great in Tom Clancy novels, but don't work well in the real world.

If I were betting, I would bet that North Korea eventually will push it just too far, leaving the US no choice but Military action. But that does mean it is a desirable outcome.
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Old 20th June 2017, 10:38 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Like ISIS, North Korea has discovered the way to cancel the US military supremacy: act like it doesn't exist.
By not playing the game of "who's got the bigger gun" and instead just declare yourself the winner, these actors have taken away the power of threats: they can't be intimidated.

The only possible trick is to pretend to play along whilst undermining their support.
Of course the danger is that NK will feel emboldened by this approach ,and eventually push it too far with an aggression against South Korea that will leave the US no choice but Military response. There is no good solution to this.
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Old 20th June 2017, 10:39 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Like ISIS, North Korea has discovered the way to cancel the US military supremacy: act like it doesn't exist.
By not playing the game of "who's got the bigger gun" and instead just declare yourself the winner, these actors have taken away the power of threats: they can't be intimidated.

The only possible trick is to pretend to play along whilst undermining their support.
And like north korea it makes a great vacation destination, and we would be shocked if anything happened to someone vacationing there got a little out of control.

ISIS also seems to be having a bit of a problem with american military in that they are being bombed by them daily and have been for years. I know we should never have given the Iraqi's back their sovereignty and kept it as a colony for a few hundred years. That would have been the solution.
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Old 20th June 2017, 10:40 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I am saying people die in custody everywhere, why make this more than it is? It isn't a big deal when an american dies in custody due to poor treatment in the US so why is it a big deal in north korea where you expect that kind of thing?

Why are you not holding us to the high standard you are holding north korea to? We need to do better here. OF course a crazy dictatorship is a crazy dictatorship, but when we are doing the same things you are condemning them for it seems like you only care when they do it and not when good american cops kill innocent people.

And we can do things like reform the Milwaukee sheriff's department and send people to prison for killing people without starting a war that will kill at least hundreds of thousands.
You do equate the US to NK. I think we are through here.
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Old 20th June 2017, 10:45 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I am saying people die in custody everywhere, why make this more than it is? It isn't a big deal when an american dies in custody due to poor treatment in the US so why is it a big deal in north korea where you expect that kind of thing?

Why are you not holding us to the high standard you are holding north korea to? We need to do better here. OF course a crazy dictatorship is a crazy dictatorship, but when we are doing the same things you are condemning them for it seems like you only care when they do it and not when good american cops kill innocent people.

And we can do things like reform the Milwaukee sheriff's department and send people to prison for killing people without starting a war that will kill at least hundreds of thousands.

Hogwash!! We're holding everyone to a higher standard. It's just you can't tell because this thread is about *********** Otto Warmbier!!!
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Old 20th June 2017, 10:45 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You do equate the US to NK. I think we are through here.
No I am comparing it to the Milwaukee county sheriff's department. They cut water to a mentally ill man in their care and laughed as he died of dehydration. This is not seen as a big deal and just one of those things that happens like they hiding evidence of their killing him.

But unlike north korea we can actually do something about this wrongful death. But no one cares because as a crazy black guy he had it coming.

You would think we could do something the one in our own country but no one really cares. So why is one death so much worse than the other?

Shouldn't we hold ourselves to a higher standard than a brutal dictatorship? Apparently not in your world.
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Old 20th June 2017, 10:47 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Hogwash!! We're holding everyone to a higher standard. It's just you can't tell because this thread is about *********** Otto Warmbier!!!
I can tell because no one cares about americans being killed in custody in the US. When the sheriffs deputies involved in this death actually get sent to prison maybe we will actually be holding ourselves to high standards.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.2dae5347667a
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Old 20th June 2017, 10:47 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Of course the danger is that NK will feel emboldened by this approach ,and eventually push it too far with an aggression against South Korea that will leave the US no choice but Military response. There is no good solution to this.
But unlike ISIS, North Korea has only regional ambition: unification on its terms.
Nationalists and Korean Supremacists in the South are actually quite eager for the idea of combining the North's order, discipline and Independence from the US with the economic power of the South.
I sure such a move would destroy both the south and north, but maybe from the ashes a more stable unified state could emerge.
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Old 20th June 2017, 11:11 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
even a perfect de-capitation strike, including destroying all nuclear launch-capabilities and most of the artillery would leave the world to feed 25 million of mostly hostile North Koreas. Plenty of them would flee to the South, possibly triggering decades of crisis and violence.

There is simply no scenario that doesn't end in millions dying one way or another.
A lengthy Atlantic article makes pretty much the same point:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...-earth/528717/

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Old 20th June 2017, 11:18 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I can tell because no one cares about americans being killed in custody in the US. When the sheriffs deputies involved in this death actually get sent to prison maybe we will actually be holding ourselves to high standards.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.2dae5347667a
The behavior of a couple thugs acting on their own has been ruled a homicide and is being investigated as a potential murder. What happened there is way different from national policy set at the highest levels of a rogue state.
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Old 20th June 2017, 11:20 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I don't buy it. I don't subscribe to the idea, 'He knew North Korea had tough laws. He should have abided by them.'


Even if technically he's guilty, the punishment is grossly disproportionate and contravenes international human rights. Trying to ascertain whether Warmbier did or did not steal the poster is playing to North Korea's unreasonable agenda.

At the most it should have been a fine. Or if you want to make an example of the guy, give him three months and then deport him.
It's not a question of what you "buy."

The civilized rule of law does not exist in NK. Ignoring that fact is like ignoring gravity. Simply setting foot in NK makes you absolutely subject to to a system that has no judicial checks and balances. There is no legal system in place that allows a NK citizen any type of fair trial -you get nabbed, you got to prison or in front of a firing squad, period.

If somebody is too clueless to understand that and visits NK, the foreseeable result is nothing but bad news.
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Old 20th June 2017, 11:22 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
A lengthy Atlantic article makes pretty much the same point:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...-earth/528717/
though I think if we got solid evidence that NK was near making an ICBM, Then a decapitation strike would become much more likely.
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Old 20th June 2017, 11:30 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Seems unlikely, as North Korea would have been quick to claim it was self harm.

If a healthy young guy of 22 had a cardiac arrest, or some other trauma to his respiratory organs (to cause brain tissue loss), then we are highly pushed to understand how and why.

They might not have made the claim when it happened for fear nobody would believe them. Maybe they hoped the guy would recover eventually.

These stories say that other Americans in custody have been treated harshly, but usually not physically harmed. There's no real reason to think Warmbier would have been an exception.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.5b9daadff222
http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/08/asia/n...bor/index.html
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Old 20th June 2017, 11:32 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The behavior of a couple thugs acting on their own has been ruled a homicide and is being investigated as a potential murder. What happened there is way different from national policy set at the highest levels of a rogue state.
A couple of thugs? That is the entire staff there. They ignored that he was dying for days. The entire staff there should at the least lose their jobs and never be responsible for anyone ever again.
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Old 20th June 2017, 11:34 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
A lengthy Atlantic article makes pretty much the same point:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...-earth/528717/
I regularly check the Reuters War College podcast, which had this gem:

Podcast: What North Korea wants
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-wa...-idUSKBN17S2CB
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Old 20th June 2017, 11:43 AM   #112
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I just don't get the big deal, when they were kidnapping Japanese citizens in japan, that is a much bigger deal than a little breakage of tourists.
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Old 20th June 2017, 11:47 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I just don't get the big deal, when they were kidnapping Japanese citizens in japan, that is a much bigger deal than a little breakage of tourists.

:


If you are trying to make yourself look like a total jerk, you are succeeding brilliantly.
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Old 20th June 2017, 11:50 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
:


If you are trying to make yourself look like a total jerk, you are succeeding brilliantly.
When americans shoot drunk tourists that seems to be the standard regard.

Like this

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/01/08/us...olice-say.html

Scotts should know better than to go to the US they are crazy violent there.
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Old 20th June 2017, 11:53 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
A couple of thugs? That is the entire staff there. They ignored that he was dying for days. The entire staff there should at the least lose their jobs and never be responsible for anyone ever again.
Sure, at a minimum. The point is that what they did wasn't jail policy, let alone city, county, state or national policy, unlike NK's activities.
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Old 20th June 2017, 12:16 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Sure, at a minimum. The point is that what they did wasn't jail policy, let alone city, county, state or national policy, unlike NK's activities.
It's "Moral Equivilency" a game that the far left loves to play....gone stark raving mad.
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Old 20th June 2017, 12:17 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
When americans shoot drunk tourists that seems to be the standard regard.

Like this

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/01/08/us...olice-say.html

Scotts should know better than to go to the US they are crazy violent there.
It was news in 1994...
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Old 20th June 2017, 12:43 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I can tell because no one cares about americans being killed in custody in the US. When the sheriffs deputies involved in this death actually get sent to prison maybe we will actually be holding ourselves to high standards.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.2dae5347667a

That's poor logic. It is the same logic that holds, 'People give money to animal charities, when we have children suffering in the world.'

Fact is, it is the same people who give to animal charities that also give to children's charities.

I'll wager, the same people who care about abuse of human rights in one country - in this case, North Korea - are the very same people who care about the poor dehydrated guy with mental problems with his water supply cut off by the US state.
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Old 20th June 2017, 12:57 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Sure, at a minimum. The point is that what they did wasn't jail policy, let alone city, county, state or national policy, unlike NK's activities.
So we are talking about the famines or this guy? What evidence do you have that this was a result of official policy?
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Old 20th June 2017, 01:02 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That's poor logic. It is the same logic that holds, 'People give money to animal charities, when we have children suffering in the world.'

Fact is, it is the same people who give to animal charities that also give to children's charities.

I'll wager, the same people who care about abuse of human rights in one country - in this case, North Korea - are the very same people who care about the poor dehydrated guy with mental problems with his water supply cut off by the US state.
Not on this board or country. The sheriff in question is now a federal official working in INS. He is a favorite commentator on many news outlets, and at one point had a talk radio show.

The right wing just treat that as a nothing event, just one more dead black man in the hands of the police. If he wanted to live he should have stayed out of prison, away from the police, done what they said and stayed calm when they panicked.

Many of those voices are the ones most condemning this tragedy. And yet no one is demanding we bomb milwaukee. Because we at least in theory have options though in reality nothing will happen.

In the case of north korea we really have no options, short of war. And getting hundreds of thousands of south korean civilians killed over the death of one dumb white guy seems excessive.
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