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Tags North Korea incidents , Otto Warmbier , US-North Korea relations

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Old 20th June 2017, 01:48 PM   #121
Bob001
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So we are talking about the famines or this guy? What evidence do you have that this was a result of official policy?
They arrested a tourist on false or at least exaggerated charges and sentenced him to 15 years hard labor at a show trial. That's the policy. He shouldn't have been in custody at all. Whatever caused his injuries might well have been unintentional. So what?
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Old 20th June 2017, 02:07 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Not on this board or country. The sheriff in question is now a federal official working in INS. He is a favorite commentator on many news outlets, and at one point had a talk radio show.

The right wing just treat that as a nothing event, just one more dead black man in the hands of the police. If he wanted to live he should have stayed out of prison, away from the police, done what they said and stayed calm when they panicked.

Many of those voices are the ones most condemning this tragedy. And yet no one is demanding we bomb milwaukee. Because we at least in theory have options though in reality nothing will happen.

In the case of north korea we really have no options, short of war. And getting hundreds of thousands of south korean civilians killed over the death of one dumb white guy seems excessive.
That you say "dumb white guy" says something about your ideology..and nothing very good,though you have point that there is no easy military solution to this.
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Old 20th June 2017, 02:23 PM   #123
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The PDJT is trying to take credit for the boy coming home. "It's a disgrace that he wasn't brought home sooner." Yeah, like maybe five months ago??? When he came into power? He had nothing to do with it. (And don't mention the other three Americans currently in captivity.)

I never thought I'd ever say this about any President of our (already) great United States, but... what a prick.
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Old 20th June 2017, 02:26 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Some guy who owned a mini-cab company near me was caught taking in 2kg of heroin at the Chinese border. He was executed, and this caused a diplomatic incident between UK and China.

Punishment has to be proportionate, even in countries with little concern for human rights.
When any country does something like that, IMO they forfeit any credibility when saying anything derogatory about Western institutions.
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Old 20th June 2017, 03:04 PM   #125
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US Citizen Otto Warmbier, returned from North Korea, murdered by vile North Koreans -may they long rot in a hell of their own.

Fixed the title.
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Old 20th June 2017, 03:11 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Well we could make more of the peasants starve. Not sure how that would be helpful here.
They are already starving.
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Old 20th June 2017, 04:20 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
They ARE Evil, if the word Evil has any meaning.

I find it disgusting that people are acting as apologists for a regime as barbaric,evil and insane as North Korea's is.
I find it disgusting that as disgusting as it is that people are acting as apologists for a regime as barbaric,evil and insane as North Korea's is; North Korea at least had the presence of mind to not pull out of the paris climate agreement, whereas others did.

Last edited by p0lka; 20th June 2017 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 20th June 2017, 05:29 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I find it disgusting that as disgusting as it is that people are acting as apologists for a regime as barbaric,evil and insane as North Korea's is; North Korea at least had the presence of mind to not pull out of the paris climate agreement, whereas others did.
This is some grade A concentrated delusion right here. Other than posturing, what exactly do you think North Korea signing onto the Paris agreement actually does? Do you think it will actually affect the amount of greenhouse gasses North Korea emits? Are you really that gullible?
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Old 20th June 2017, 05:45 PM   #129
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Young Pioneers Tours

Normally low-key, The Economist titled their article "The outrageous death of Otto Warmbier." "'HOW safe is it? Extremely safe!' So read the guidance for North Korea on the website of Young Pioneer Tours when Otto Warmbier, a 21-year-old American student, signed up for a five-day trip to North Korea in December 2015."
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Old 20th June 2017, 05:52 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I find it disgusting that as disgusting as it is that people are acting as apologists for a regime as barbaric,evil and insane as North Korea's is; North Korea at least had the presence of mind to not pull out of the paris climate agreement, whereas others did.

And North Korea makes it illegal for its citizens to have guns, too, so you have that to look positively upon them, as well.
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Old 20th June 2017, 06:10 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
This is some grade A concentrated delusion right here. Other than posturing, what exactly do you think North Korea signing onto the Paris agreement actually does? Do you think it will actually affect the amount of greenhouse gasses North Korea emits? Are you really that gullible?
Can North Korea even emit greenhouse gases? Don't they need at least nineteenth century technology to do that?
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Old 20th June 2017, 06:19 PM   #132
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For a less inflammatory discussion of this event, snopes seems as good a bet as any.

http://www.snopes.com/2017/06/20/dea...ffles-experts/
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Old 20th June 2017, 06:30 PM   #133
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I'll have to remember the Mt. Everest analogy next time a woman gets raped at a frat party.
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Old 20th June 2017, 06:32 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
though I think if we got solid evidence that NK was near making an ICBM, Then a decapitation strike would become much more likely.
We should make it a policy to shoot down every ballistic missile launch they try. You don't let people who continually threaten to destroy you develop the capacity to nuke one your major cities. That would just be stupid.
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Old 20th June 2017, 08:10 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Can North Korea even emit greenhouse gases? Don't they need at least nineteenth century technology to do that?
They have coal, and it gets cold in the winter, so I assume there are at least some emissions. But yeah, satellite pics show not much electricity generation.
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Old 20th June 2017, 08:50 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
They have coal, and it gets cold in the winter, so I assume there are at least some emissions. But yeah, satellite pics show not much electricity generation.
So that's where all the coal jobs are!
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Old 20th June 2017, 09:02 PM   #137
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The family has refused an autopsy, so unless the DPRK suddenly opens up*, the cause of his death will remain a mystery.


* This is unlikely.
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Old 20th June 2017, 09:16 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I'll have to remember the Mt. Everest analogy next time a woman gets raped at a frat party.
What does a frat house have to do with North Korea? Is a frat house an oppressive dictatorial sovereign state that has a well published history of human rights abuses, imprisoning and executing people for minor stupid charges and is know for spewing hate filled BS against the countries of the people who for some reason still decide to visit?

Cause if so then yes, she is dumb for visiting, and likely a bit of a dick. Because by visiting she is supporting the evil ****head who runs the joint.

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Old 20th June 2017, 09:32 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
The family has refused an autopsy, so unless the DPRK suddenly opens up*, the cause of his death will remain a mystery.


* This is unlikely.

That's perplexing, considering the number of unanswered questions.
https://www.livescience.com/59557-ot...r-autopsy.html
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Old 20th June 2017, 10:21 PM   #140
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my 2 cents:
Most likely scenario: North Korea has made it an industry to ransom foreigners back to their governments. Warmbier was going to go the same way after putting the Fear of the Dear Leader into him - but they messed up, bigly, causing probably some brain damage.
So they put him on ice and kept mum until it became clear that he would die in the coma in the foreseeable future. Not wanting him to die on North Korea soil, they shipped him back as quickly as possible.
I don't see this case as any kind of escalation - in fact it might make NK more cautious about how they treat foreigners in the future.
An actual military response would be a bad thing. But just what Trump is likely to do.
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Old 20th June 2017, 11:00 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That you say "dumb white guy" says something about your ideology..and nothing very good,though you have point that there is no easy military solution to this.
Yeah he was a bit more than dumb, he was stupid, selfish and a dick. Oh lets go visit a place that hates who I am and can punish me for it. YAY!!!
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Old 21st June 2017, 12:57 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
:


If you are trying to make yourself look like a total jerk, you are succeeding brilliantly.
It was a bigger deal. They kidnapped Japanese rather than Americans, so the rule of "I'm more interested in people I identify with" applies.
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Old 21st June 2017, 01:31 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
What is clear is there is no evidence of actual physical trauma - he was not beaten about the head to cause the injury.
No, that's not clear at all. Since the family has declined an autopsy, we have only external signs of physical trauma. And those are not at all dispositive due to the length of time he was held.
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Old 21st June 2017, 02:07 AM   #144
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Having read quite a few books on North Korea including those horrific accounts of Nazi type concentration camps and intriguing documentaries such as those about the U.S. soldiers who defected to North Korea during the Korean war (biggest mistake of their lives), I find it hard to believe how anyone would visit the country as a tourist. I could to some extent relate to the anger that someone could be so dumb as to literally put their life in danger by playing such a stupid prank as nicking a propaganda poster. But when this happened I felt that this whilst such sentiments might be expressed, it should be clear that that attitude should take about one thousandth of the importance as expressing the utter barbarity of the North Korea Police State. Now that the poor man has died, posts here and elsewhere that reflect callously on the American's "stupidity" as a kind of equivalence to the cruelty of this state I find astonishingly heartless.

I assumed the man had stolen the poster but did not believe the story he told in "court". The punishment meted out was so absurdly out of proportion that nothing could excuse the country's actions. I am not sure how to react to the possibility that that the man did not even commit the crime because my position is that North Korea's actions were already utterly outrageous and if it turns out that there is proof that the theft did occur then that does not mitigate them in any way at all.

Words fail me if he didn't even do it in the first place.

The U.S and other countries such as the UK should ban travel to this country. When a BBC journalist is imprisoned for about 24 hours or more, as happened recently, this is clearly a dangerous place to be.

Journalists such as John Sweeney should reflect on the danger he put his fellow travellers when pretending to be part of an educational tour, when in fact he was attempting an undercover documentary.

Lastly I am sad Trump is getting some credit by the family, and Obama some criticism. I may be proved wrong but I wonder if Obama did not try just as hard as Trump to free the man, and that his release was just a cynical action by the North Korean Government. (Though I do give Trump credit for having the obvious disgust with the country).
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Old 21st June 2017, 04:15 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That you say "dumb white guy" says something about your ideology..and nothing very good,though you have point that there is no easy military solution to this.
He went to north korea on vacation, I stand by that description.
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Old 21st June 2017, 04:17 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
They are already starving.
That is why I said more. Clearly we need to collectively punish the north koreans for this.
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Old 21st June 2017, 04:22 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I'll have to remember the Mt. Everest analogy next time a woman gets raped at a frat party.
We can actually do something about a frat party. Clearly vacationing in a war zone as we are still at war with north korea(no peace treaty just a ceasefire) might not be the best idea. That is rather different than a party.

Clearly the response to being raped at a frat party is to kill everyone who is a member of any fraternity on the campus. That just follows through with the analogy of how to respond to this.
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Old 21st June 2017, 04:24 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
my 2 cents:
Most likely scenario: North Korea has made it an industry to ransom foreigners back to their governments.
What foreigners has it ransomed back, and what did it get for them?
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Old 21st June 2017, 04:45 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
What foreigners has it ransomed back, and what did it get for them?
These things are almost never made public, but it's standard practice with oppressive regimes.
The most public case to date is probably of North Korean "pirates" trying to ransom a Chinese boat full of fishermen:

https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Secu...emand-a-ransom

from the article:
Quote:
"Whatever you call North Korea – rogue state or whatever – these kind of cases just keep happening,” said a Liaoning Maritime and Fishery Administration official who identified himself only by his surname, Liu. “We had such cases last year and the year before. There’s very little we can do to prevent them.”
They are also planning to ransom back South korean POWs:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ith-North.html

We have no proof that the US is (most probably indirectly) paying Pyongyang for prisoners, but that would be very much in line with their normal actions.
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Old 21st June 2017, 06:00 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
An actual military response would be a bad thing. But just what Trump is likely to do.
Not over this it isn't.
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Old 21st June 2017, 06:34 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Not over this it isn't.
I think it is quite possible he would do something foolishly military or pre-emptive. Like perhaps, unleashing the FATHER OF ALL BOMBS. After all, he has to one-up himself all the time.
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Old 21st June 2017, 07:01 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
We should make it a policy to shoot down every ballistic missile launch they try. You don't let people who continually threaten to destroy you develop the capacity to nuke one your major cities. That would just be stupid.
Then it would be obvious how useless the ballistic defense system actually is.

Also.

A. Wambier shouldn't have gone their, a bit like acting surprised that someone died on while base jumping.
B. That doesn't justify N. Korea(or N country orange as we called them during battle drills in the Navy) killing him.
C. There's not much we can do about it other than say, "That's awful what Kim regime did to that fellow." We should always blame the Kims, the N. Koreans are more the victims of the regime than anyone.

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Old 21st June 2017, 07:25 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
We should make it a policy to shoot down every ballistic missile launch they try. You don't let people who continually threaten to destroy you develop the capacity to nuke one your major cities. That would just be stupid.
Brilliant idea, letting them test how to circumstances the defense system...
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Old 21st June 2017, 01:26 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Brilliant idea, letting them test how to circumstances the defense system...
It can be a learning experience for both sides. But I think we would come out ahead.
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Old 21st June 2017, 01:28 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Then it would be obvious how useless the ballistic defense system actually is.
Not at all. If our system has an X% success rate, that doesn't make it useless, and we can improve it with live-fire tests against N. Korean missiles. Kills two birds with one stone.
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Old 21st June 2017, 01:28 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I think it is quite possible he would do something foolishly military or pre-emptive. Like perhaps, unleashing the FATHER OF ALL BOMBS. After all, he has to one-up himself all the time.
This is paranoia.
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Old 21st June 2017, 01:32 PM   #157
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Yeah he was a bit more than dumb, he was stupid, selfish and a dick. Oh lets go visit a place that hates who I am and can punish me for it. YAY!!!
Another one of Kim's Little Helpers......
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Old 21st June 2017, 01:37 PM   #158
IIIClovisIII
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Too bad terrorism is almost nonexistent in police states.
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Old 21st June 2017, 01:42 PM   #159
BStrong
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Not over this it isn't.
We didn't go to war w/ NK over this in '76:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axe_murder_incident

The axe murder incident (Korean: 판문점 도끼살인사건; Hanja: 板門店도끼殺人事件,도끼蠻行事件; literally, Panmunjom axe murder incident) was the killing of two United States Army officers, Arthur Bonifas and Mark Barrett, by North Korean soldiers on August 18, 1976, in the Joint Security Area (JSA) located in the Korean Demilitarized Zone (DMZ). The U.S. Army officers had been part of a work party cutting down a poplar tree in the JSA that partially blocked the view of United Nations (U.N.) observers when they were assaulted and killed by the North Koreans, who claimed that the tree was planted by Kim Il-Sung.[1]

But rumor control central at Ft. Bragg had the 82nd doing a combat jump north of the 38th parallel.

I'm glad we didn't.
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Old 21st June 2017, 02:27 PM   #160
KatieG
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
The family has refused an autopsy, so unless the DPRK suddenly opens up*, the cause of his death will remain a mystery.


* This is unlikely.
Maybe they don't want to know how much torture he was subjected to. That would add more pain they simply can't deal with.
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