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Tags North Korea incidents , Otto Warmbier , US-North Korea relations

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Old 21st June 2017, 03:39 PM   #161
alfaniner
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axe_murder_incident

The U.S. Army officers had been part of a work party cutting down a poplar tree in the JSA that partially blocked the view of United Nations (U.N.) observers when they were assaulted and killed by the North Koreans, who claimed that the tree was planted by Kim Il-Sung.[1][/i][/b]
I have a photo of the remains of that very tree. Taken in person. But several years after the fact.
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Old 21st June 2017, 03:49 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Another one of Kim's Little Helpers......
How'd you figure that? I would have thought providing financial support to Kims terrible reigeme, just like good ol' Otto did would be more helpful to Kim than me calling him evil, but hey, maybe you just have an odd definition of "helper".
Just cause Otto died does not mean I cannot think he was stupid for going, Just like I think that about everyone else that went but didn't get imprisoned.
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Old 21st June 2017, 03:51 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
No, that's not clear at all. Since the family has declined an autopsy, we have only external signs of physical trauma. And those are not at all dispositive due to the length of time he was held.
I guess the family are not thinking clearly at the moment. Its ashame but semi understandable. Lets just hope they don't regret it later on.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 03:51 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Not at all. If our system has an X% success rate, that doesn't make it useless, and we can improve it with live-fire tests against N. Korean missiles. Kills two birds with one stone.
And there is no risk to worthwhile human beings, just american military personnel and south koreans.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 04:36 AM   #165
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“There are mysteries we cannot fathom”

Some of Warmbier’s friends spoke, as candles glowed in the amphitheater around them, about his brilliance, his adventurousness, his boundless joy, his faith in connection. He was the one to call rather than text, often, for routine plans (even if friends initially found that weird). He was the one to ignore a hand proffered for an introductory handshake with a grin and a tight embrace, saying, “Let’s bring it in,” or “Let’s hug it out!” WaPo link to story by Susan Svluga.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 04:58 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
We didn't go to war w/ NK over this in '76:
True. But then we didn't have an idiot for a President.
That said, I agree with Zig - Trump's not going to start a war over this because he doesn't care. After all, how many Muslims live in NK?
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Old 22nd June 2017, 05:27 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
How'd you figure that?
Blaming the victim excuses the perpetrator.

Quote:
Just cause Otto died does not mean I cannot think he was stupid for going, Just like I think that about everyone else that went but didn't get imprisoned.
You also called him selfish and a dick. And he wasn't merely imprisoned, he was murdered.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 07:53 AM   #168
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Swimming Coach

"Todd Siler, who taught Warmbier in high school, said his youngest daughter, a sixth-grader, watched the doctors talking last week about Warmbier, who had been her swimming coach. The two of them were close; Warmbier loved that every time she surfaced through the water, she had a big, spontaneous smile on her face, Siler said, and used to tease her, warmly, about that." From an earlier WaPo story.

Whatever mistakes he might have made, he does not deserve to be called names.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 09:35 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And there is no risk to worthwhile human beings, just american military personnel and south koreans.
The whole point is containing the risk. What do you do with a mad dog that escapes the yard? Put it down. We can't move Seoul, but we can prevent N. Korea from becoming more dangerous, esp. to us.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 10:40 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
No, that's not clear at all. Since the family has declined an autopsy, we have only external signs of physical trauma. And those are not at all dispositive due to the length of time he was held.
This is a very superficial view - literally.

Yes skin and soft tissue injuries will have healed. There may or may not be scars. BUT, it is very likely that before allowing him to pass away the medical team will have carried out an MRI of the brain at minimum. The pattern of brain injuries will tell you about the mechanism of injury. A good example is how MRI scans identify brain injury from recurrent concussion in boxers or football players. Boney injury would also be apparent, even invisible soft tissue scarring from physical injury. The pattern of brain injury from oxygen starvation is very different from that due to physical injury.

Studies suggest that a full body MRI gives as much information as an autopsy, a full body MRI is an effective alternative in cases where the family do not wish an autopsy.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 03:39 PM   #171
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He bought posters

Ria Westergaard Pedersen, 33, who was with Warmbier in North Korea, told the Danish broadcaster TV2 this week that he had been nervous when taking pictures of soldiers, and said she doubted North Korea’s explanation for his arrest.
“We went to buy propaganda posters together, so why in the world would he risk so much to steal a trivial poster? It makes no sense.” link
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Old 22nd June 2017, 03:49 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Blaming the victim excuses the perpetrator.



You also called him selfish and a dick. And he wasn't merely imprisoned, he was murdered.
Well he was selfish and a dick. He wasn't in North Korea for the benifit of the people. While there he was providing financial support for an evil oppressive regeime for bragging rights. Just because he ended up getting screwed over by that evil opressive regeime does not turn his selfishness to altruisim.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 09:08 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Well he was selfish and a dick. He wasn't in North Korea for the benifit of the people. While there he was providing financial support for an evil oppressive regeime for bragging rights. Just because he ended up getting screwed over by that evil opressive regeime does not turn his selfishness to altruisim.
Blah, blah frikkin' blah ....


ETA: Wooah ... look at me! I'm being all edgy 'n ******!

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Old 22nd June 2017, 09:16 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
"Todd Siler, who taught Warmbier in high school, said his youngest daughter, a sixth-grader, watched the doctors talking last week about Warmbier, who had been her swimming coach. The two of them were close; Warmbier loved that every time she surfaced through the water, she had a big, spontaneous smile on her face, Siler said, and used to tease her, warmly, about that." From an earlier WaPo story.

Whatever mistakes he might have made, he does not deserve to be called names.

Oh please give it a rest. Fine he was a gentle giant, great guy, but this is a skeptics board. Do you do this for every thread where someone dies?

- What Korea did to him was beyond terrible.
- Going to North Korea as a tourist, in my opinion, is very stupid. This means, I am calling him stupid. Too bad.

Those statements can both be true.

I can't type what I think about N. Korea here, it would be all asterisks, but that doesn't change the fact.

Stupid is as stupid does, and North Korea sucks.

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Old 22nd June 2017, 09:21 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Oh please give it a rest. Fine he was a gentle giant, great guy, but this is a skeptics board. Do you do this for every thread where someone dies?

- What Korea did to him was beyond terrible.
- Going to North Korea as a tourist, in my opinion, is very stupid. This means, I am calling him stupid. Too bad.

Those statements can both be true.

I can't type what I think about N. Korea here, it would be all asterisks, but that doesn't change the fact.

Stupid is as stupid does, and North Korea sucks.
This goes for U 2:


Ah ... I quote myself ...

Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Blah, blah frikkin' blah ....

ETA: Wooah ... look at me! I'm being all edgy 'n ******!
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Old 22nd June 2017, 09:53 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
We can't move Seoul, but we can prevent N. Korea from becoming more dangerous, esp. to us.
How? I'd like to hear your suggestions because many seasoned international experts don't know.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 09:55 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
This is a very superficial view - literally.

Yes skin and soft tissue injuries will have healed. There may or may not be scars. BUT, it is very likely that before allowing him to pass away the medical team will have carried out an MRI of the brain at minimum. The pattern of brain injuries will tell you about the mechanism of injury. A good example is how MRI scans identify brain injury from recurrent concussion in boxers or football players. Boney injury would also be apparent, even invisible soft tissue scarring from physical injury. The pattern of brain injury from oxygen starvation is very different from that due to physical injury.

Studies suggest that a full body MRI gives as much information as an autopsy, a full body MRI is an effective alternative in cases where the family do not wish an autopsy.
Was a body scan done? No? Then all of your post is irrelevant and my post remains - unsuperficially.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 07:35 AM   #178
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NK Tourism

Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
Normally low-key, The Economist titled their article "The outrageous death of Otto Warmbier." "'HOW safe is it? Extremely safe!' So read the guidance for North Korea on the website of Young Pioneer Tours when Otto Warmbier, a 21-year-old American student, signed up for a five-day trip to North Korea in December 2015."
More from the same paragraph in The Economist: "The travel company based in China is one of a handful that offer tightly marshalled circuits around mostly beautified bits of the impoverished gangster state. 'Despite what you may hear,' it continued, 'North Korea is probably one of the safest places on Earth to visit.'"

From Vox. "At least 16 US citizens have been detained in North Korea in the past 10 years, and three have yet to be released. Warmbier is also not the first nor the only American to have been injured during captivity. But many Americans head there anyway. Simon Cockerell, general manager of Koryo Tours, estimates that some 20 percent of the 4,000 to 5,000 Western tourists who venture to North Korea every year are Americans, according to the New York Times."

From the WaPo: "North Korean leader Kim Jong Un has set a goal of attracting a million tourists to the *Communist-ruled county. Critics have said tourism is a significant source of foreign currency for the regime."
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Old 23rd June 2017, 07:53 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Oh please give it a rest. Fine he was a gentle giant, great guy, but this is a skeptics board.
And? What about skepticism requires the judgmentalism you've shown? It's one thing to conclude that going to North Korea is dangerous, and it was a mistake for him to do so. But you've got no idea what information (or misinformation) he was basing his decision on. Making judgments about the quality of his character in the absence of any such knowledge has nothing to do with skepticism.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 12:26 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
How? I'd like to hear your suggestions because many seasoned international experts don't know.
After reading up on this, I've changed my mind. The best strategy is to try and stay one step ahead with our missile-interception program and pray MAD works with N. Korea like it did with the Soviet Union.
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Old 24th June 2017, 09:17 AM   #181
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Timing is everything

Politico has an article that raises some questions IMO. "The American remembers the North Korean guides concerned and angry. They asked him, “Where’s Danny [Gratton]? Is he drunk? What do you mean he’s gone?” The tourists waited in the square for hours, until their guides eventually returned them to the hotel. Gratton took several taxis and made it back sometime early in the morning, according to the American, who says he saw him walk back into the hotel."
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Old 24th June 2017, 10:21 AM   #182
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there is no substitute for doing one's homework

Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Oh please give it a rest. Fine he was a gentle giant, great guy, but this is a skeptics board. Do you do this for every thread where someone dies?
If you had followed my other comments links, you would understand that one reason I posted the comment in question was to document why Mr. Siler may be treated as a knowledgeable source about Mr. Warmbier. Being a good skeptic sometimes means going out and obtaining more information.
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Old 25th June 2017, 01:22 PM   #183
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the deaconess and the tie to the secret society look to be fictitious

"The senior pastor at Friendship United Methodist Church in Wyoming, Ohio, told CNN he did not know the person identified by Warmbier in the KCNA story [the one who supposedly offered a car] as a deaconess there, and said Warmbier was not a member of the congregation." link

"According to a North Korean source quoted by CNN, Warmbier didn't actually steal the banner — he reportedly abandoned it because it was too big to carry away with him." link

Also from the second link: "A spokesperson for the Z Society told CNN no contact had ever been made between the secretive group and Warmbier."
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Old 26th June 2017, 07:20 AM   #184
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Think this will impact tourism to north korea? If so will it increase or reduce it?
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Old 26th June 2017, 07:35 AM   #185
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How should I say this...

I'm not shocked. I don't know why this guy was in North Korea to begin with.

Okay, to be clear, we're discussing a government that is evil. Dude executes his imagined opponents in new and imaginative ways - including shooting them with anti-aircraft weapons.

It's reasonable to be disgusted at N. Korea, and also to say "well, why even visit there?"

N. Korea's rulers are a problem. This guy did not help. That's not to say he deserved what he got, which he did not.
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Old 26th June 2017, 09:00 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Think this will impact tourism to north korea? If so will it increase or reduce it?
Since U.S. officials are talking about banning travel to the UK, and at least one of the tour operators has said it will no longer accept customers with U.S. passports, I'd bet tourism will be reduced.
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Old 26th June 2017, 02:10 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Since U.S. officials are talking about banning travel to the UK, and at least one of the tour operators has said it will no longer accept customers with U.S. passports, I'd bet tourism will be reduced.
I presume you mean NK instead of UK.......

I suspect legal US Travel for private citizens to North Korea is going to be a thing of the past. It can still be evaded, of course, but at least people will have been warned traveling to NK is a realy, really, bad idea.
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Old 26th June 2017, 02:22 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Since U.S. officials are talking about banning travel to the UK, and at least one of the tour operators has said it will no longer accept customers with U.S. passports, I'd bet tourism will be reduced.
[quote=dudalb;11898783]I presume you mean NK instead of UK....../QUOTE]

But which country has more Muslims? Think about it.
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Old 27th June 2017, 07:18 AM   #189
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NK spokesman: we are the biggest victim

At Politico an AP story: "The spokesman also said that "groundless" speculation of torture and beatings could be refuted by American doctors who came to the North to examine Warmbier before his release and allegedly acknowledged that North Korean doctors had "brought him back alive" after his heart nearly stopped.

"While Pyongyang accepted U.S. demands for Warmbier's return on humanitarian grounds, Washington "totally distorted this truth and dared to clamor about 'retaliation' and 'pressure'" on "dignified" North Korea, the spokesman told KCNA.

""To make it clear, we are the biggest victim of this incident and there would be no more foolish judgment than to think we do not know how to calculate gains and losses," the spokesman said."
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Old 27th June 2017, 07:47 AM   #190
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It may have been posted or discussed earlier, but retired judge Michael Kirby agrees that the injury to Warmbier was not a result of torture or beatings.
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Old 27th June 2017, 08:00 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by TofuFighter View Post
It may have been posted or discussed earlier, but retired judge Michael Kirby agrees that the injury to Warmbier was not a result of torture or beatings.
No one is going to change their views on this though. Maybe he was an innocent man tortured to death, maybe he was a criminal who died through some other more innocuous cause. No one is going to have their minds changed.
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Old 27th June 2017, 08:13 AM   #192
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North Korea is communist fascist.
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Old 27th June 2017, 08:25 AM   #193
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A different view of what Judge Kirby said

Originally Posted by TofuFighter View Post
It may have been posted or discussed earlier, but retired judge Michael Kirby agrees that the injury to Warmbier was not a result of torture or beatings.
Here is a transcript of an interview from ABC in Australia. Just skimmed it, but it doesn't sound much like the Daily Mail's take, which seems to be based upon a Sky News interview.
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Old 27th June 2017, 09:01 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
North Korea is communist fascist.
Yes and?
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Old 27th June 2017, 10:42 AM   #195
theprestige
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
No one is going to change their views on this though. Maybe he was an innocent man tortured to death, maybe he was a criminal who died through some other more innocuous cause. No one is going to have their minds changed.
Have you tried using sarcasm?
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Old 27th June 2017, 11:30 AM   #196
Mumbles
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I'm confused.

Why was this guy in North Korea to begin with? We know that that horrible government, why even try for it?
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Old 27th June 2017, 11:43 AM   #197
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I'm confused.

Why was this guy in North Korea to begin with? We know that that horrible government, why even try for it?
Fun vacation area apparently.
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Old 27th June 2017, 11:48 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I'm confused.

Why was this guy in North Korea to begin with? We know that that horrible government, why even try for it?

I don't know, but apparently as card carrying Librul I'm supposed to make fun of him ...
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Old 27th June 2017, 11:59 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I'm confused.

Why was this guy in North Korea to begin with? We know that that horrible government, why even try for it?
About a thousand Americans travel there per year, but I would have to say that it seems a risky proposition to do so. Maybe Otto Warmbier was naive, but I don't believe he actually took anything. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time IMO.
EDT. Attempts to link this incident to white privilege, as one former U of Delaware adjunct professor did, are...questionable.
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Last edited by Chris_Halkides; 27th June 2017 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 27th June 2017, 12:03 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
About a thousand Americans travel there per year, but I would have to say that it seems a risky proposition to do so. Maybe Otto Warmbier was naive, but I don't believe he actually took anything. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time IMO.
*If* I were invited, I'd just throw up a middle finger. I find their regime disgusting, and I'll gladly insult them in public.
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