ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 30th June 2017, 12:47 PM   #41
bignickel
Mad Mod Poet God
 
bignickel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 3,102
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Do you feel that your dislike of it is sufficient to override anybody else's view who may value that insight to history?
That insight into history is what museums are for.

Other things visitors can view can be the Confederate Battle Flag (which represents "Southern heritage" somehow...), info on Jim Crow laws, pictures of firehoses and dogs being turned on protesters... etc.

I certainly think that kind of museum can be a tremendous help in educating the future public, certainly to let them know how ridiculous a notion of "sacred principles to maintain and rights to defend" our former enemy thought of.
__________________
"You can find that book everywhere and the risk is that many people who read it believe that those fairy tales are real. I think I have the responsibility to clear things up to unmask the cheap lies contained in books like that."
- Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone

Last edited by bignickel; 30th June 2017 at 12:48 PM. Reason: edit
bignickel is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2017, 01:21 PM   #42
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 21,132
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Do you feel that your dislike of it is sufficient to override anybody else's view who may value that insight to history?
These monuments weren't put up to provide "insight to history"; they were put up to shoehorn and perpetually enforce a revisionist narrative of it.

Indeed the only "insight" these memorials really have to offer us is not to the people they were built to honor, but rather the people who built them. But as I've explained elsewhere, they serve even that function better in a museum.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2017, 01:40 PM   #43
Emily's Cat
Knows how to push buttons... er... press keys
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 9,118
Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Are there a lot of statues of King George II that were put up after the American Revolution saying what a great guy he was? Or George III for that matter.

It's not a matter of depicting the losers. It's a matter of attempting to re-write history and glorify those who committed treason.
So no monuments to the protesters in Tienanmen square then?

One man's traitor is another man's revolutionary. The only thing that makes the confederate states "traitors" is that they lost. Had they won, they'd have been revolutionaries who seceded from the union.

If it's re-writing history and glorifying treason to commemorate those soldiers, it's similarly re-writing history and glorifying treason to commemorate any failed rebellion. Yet there are plenty of failed rebellions that are still commemorated for any number of reasons.

Either way, it's still history. And it's not being rewritten by leaving those monuments as they stand - it's being rewritten by removing any reference to the confederate side of the civil war.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2017, 01:57 PM   #44
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 10,946
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Should we destroy any monuments to Napoleon? Or Alexander the Great?
Think the French and the Greeks would mind if you clomped on in there and started busting up their statues. Worry about your own embarrassing history.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2017, 01:58 PM   #45
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 10,946
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
So no monuments to the protesters in Tienanmen square then?
Are there any in China?

If not, feel free to set one up in your home town.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2017, 03:03 PM   #46
wareyin
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,194
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
So no monuments to the protesters in Tienanmen square then?

One man's traitor is another man's revolutionary. The only thing that makes the confederate states "traitors" is that they lost. Had they won, they'd have been revolutionaries who seceded from the union.

If it's re-writing history and glorifying treason to commemorate those soldiers, it's similarly re-writing history and glorifying treason to commemorate any failed rebellion. Yet there are plenty of failed rebellions that are still commemorated for any number of reasons.

Either way, it's still history. And it's not being rewritten by leaving those monuments as they stand - it's being rewritten by removing any reference to the confederate side of the civil war.
You know, I see right wing media continuously saying how this is rewriting history, or erasing the Confederate side, but as someone living in Atlanta, they aren't rewriting anything, or removing references to the Confederates. They are correcting the attempted rewriting of history, known as whitewashing. They removing monuments glorifying the Confederacy or prominent Confederates, and that's a very different thing than Fox news is telling folks.

Go to Kennesaw Battlefield. Go to Gettysburg. No one is removing any monuments there, or erasing any mention of the south.
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2017, 03:38 PM   #47
JoeBentley
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeBentley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 8,146
Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
If it was treasonous for the ten states to secede from the union, why was it acceptable for the thirteen colonies to secede from the empire?
I'd wager there aren't too many monuments to the American Revolution in Great Britain and if there are they are free to tear them down.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Hating a bad thing does not make you good." - David Wong
JoeBentley is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2017, 03:53 PM   #48
autumn1971
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,058
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Should we destroy any monuments to Napoleon? Or Alexander the Great? Or to any other historical event that is no longer considered acceptable?

There's nothing inherently racist about that statue. The civil war happened. It was a big divide in the country. If the memorials were actually depicting something offensive, or were expressing a racist sentiment, I would understand. But right now, you're pretty much saying that anything and everything that could in any way be associated with the losing side in the civil war should be destroyed because it's somehow innately offensive. And I find that absurd.
Victor Hugo wrote specifically about such monument that we respect and admire the past only because it agrees to remain dead.

When the Southern Pride folks agree to this I will honor their little monuments.
__________________
'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."'
-The Bard
autumn1971 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2017, 05:45 PM   #49
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 17,527
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Should we destroy any monuments to Napoleon? Or Alexander the Great? Or to any other historical event that is no longer considered acceptable?
I didn't know either of them is "no longer considered acceptable". There's a lot you can criticize Napoleon for, but he also exported the fruits of the French Revolution to most of continental Europe. We owe him the meter and the kilogram, the civil code and the penal code, to name a few. Alexander exported Greek culture, science and philosophy to the Middle East. We owe him (specifically, his general Ptolemy I) the Library of Alexandria.

There's absolutely no reason why your country or mine would put up a statue for either of them, but as a human being, I would not feel offended seeing one in France resp. Greece. Actually, my country's first king was Napoleon's brother Louis, and he's sort-a whitewashed out of our history, though he did his best to serve his (assigned) country to the best of his abilities.

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
There's nothing inherently racist about that statue. The civil war happened. It was a big divide in the country.
Yes, it is racist. It celebrates a racist cause. The only raison d'être of the Confederacy was the right (constitutionally enshrined) to keep slaves and the view that blacks were inferior human beings. And in a sense, the Civil War continues as long as those monuments are there on public land.

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Whether you agree with the ideals of the soldiers involved in that war or not, this is the purposeful destruction of history. I don't see this as any better than the burning of the Library of Alexandria. Our descendants should be able to view our history as it was, not with some saccharine shine of political correctness being rewritten to appease some multi-generational guilt.
The burning of the Library of Alexandria destroyed knowledge. Tearing down a statue does not. There are other and better ways to learn about the evils of the Southern racist bigots than to glorify them with a public monument.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2017, 05:47 PM   #50
Spindrift
Time Person of the Year, 2006
 
Spindrift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Right here!
Posts: 19,091
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
So no monuments to the protesters in Tienanmen square then?
In China? I doubt it.
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
One man's traitor is another man's revolutionary. The only thing that makes the confederate states "traitors" is that they lost. Had they won, they'd have been revolutionaries who seceded from the union.
If they won, they would have their own country for their monuments. They lost trying to destroy this country.
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
If it's re-writing history and glorifying treason to commemorate those soldiers, it's similarly re-writing history and glorifying treason to commemorate any failed rebellion.
If the glorification for false reason. The war was started by the South to preserve slavery, not the glorious "lost cause" of fiction.
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Yet there are plenty of failed rebellions that are still commemorated for any number of reasons.
A rebellion that cost the lives of hundreds of thousands and was started for the reason of preserving slavery?

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Either way, it's still history. And it's not being rewritten by leaving those monuments as they stand - it's being rewritten by removing any reference to the confederate side of the civil war.
Who's removing any reference to the confederate side? Go to any number of museums. Read any number of books.
__________________
I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.
Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon

Last edited by Spindrift; 30th June 2017 at 05:48 PM.
Spindrift is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2017, 05:57 PM   #51
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 16,548
Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
If it was treasonous for the ten states to secede from the union, why was it acceptable for the thirteen colonies to secede from the empire? Destroy all memorials to the American Revolution, and its (slave-owning) founding fathers.
It certainly WAS treasonous ... to England.

How many monuments to the Colonials are there in England?
__________________
I have a permanent room at the Home for the Chronically Groovy - Floyd from the Muppets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2017, 05:58 PM   #52
JoeBentley
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeBentley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 8,146
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
So no monuments to the protesters in Tienanmen square then?
*Holds out one palm* Peaceful student protesters killed by the thousands seeking democratic reform, freedom of the press, and freedom of speech.

*Holds out the other palm* An armed treasonous uprising to prevent the removal of the vital "state right" to own other human beings as chattel based on the color of their skin.

Yeah that's a fair comparison.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Hating a bad thing does not make you good." - David Wong
JoeBentley is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2017, 06:05 PM   #53
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 21,696
I would add that, although many of our other heroes are indeed tainted by the sins of their times and sins of their own, a monument to the Confederacy has a somewhat different status, because when it comes down to it, however fine many of the participants may have been, the Confederacy itself existed for only one real purpose, and that was the perpetuation of slavery.

I would also remind one that, in this case at least, the proposals I've seen are not that the monument be destroyed, but that it be removed from what many would consider its inappropriately prideful location. There's a difference there.

I tend to agree that it's a mistake to re-edit history, to destroy things we no longer like, or to pretend things did not happen as they did. But we do get to change our opinions, our priorities, our heroes and our symbols. How much of the evil and misfortune in the world comes from saving face and denying change. We ought to be able to say "once I thought one way, but now I think otherwise." Grow up.
__________________
Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding. (Samuel Johnson)

I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2017, 07:15 AM   #54
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Next door to Florida Man, world's worst superhero.
Posts: 14,810
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Should we destroy any monuments to Napoleon? Or Alexander the Great? Or to any other historical event that is no longer considered acceptable?

There's nothing inherently racist about that statue. The civil war happened. It was a big divide in the country. If the memorials were actually depicting something offensive, or were expressing a racist sentiment, I would understand. But right now, you're pretty much saying that anything and everything that could in any way be associated with the losing side in the civil war should be destroyed because it's somehow innately offensive. And I find that absurd.
There's a difference between remembering our history and memorializing it. These statues were intended to honor those statues are intended to honor Confederate soldiers. We can remember the crime of the Civil War without celebrating the criminals.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2017, 07:56 AM   #55
Cainkane1
Philosopher
 
Cainkane1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The great American southeast
Posts: 8,412
Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
The horribly offencive confederate monument in St. Louis' Forest Park (That most people, up until recently, didn't even know was there.) will be removed from Forest Park by Friday. The city decided to let the rightful owners move and store it rather than fight out the city's right to remove and store it in court.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/g...c517b4f9f.html
Is history that offensive to you? If the monuments are removed does that mean it didn't happen? The Civil War happened and misguided men fought to preserve slavery. Be glad they lost. Most of the Confederate soldiers were forced to fight in that war and I personally consider them victims. Most of them were non-slave owners who could barely feed their families.
__________________
If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.
Cainkane1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2017, 09:25 AM   #56
CaptainHowdy
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 562
Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Tell you what, you and those who feel the South's ideals of owning other humans as property win the next civil war and you can do just that after putting your precious Confederate monuments to losers back up.
Oh, I see...if the South had won, slavery would be OK and statues of slave state heroes like Washington and Jefferson could remain in place? You're not very good at this, are you?
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2017, 09:26 AM   #57
CaptainHowdy
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 562
Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
I think we draw the line at treason. Don't commit treason and you can have a monument. Or if you're going to commit treason, win don't lose.
And we have another vote for might makes right!
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2017, 09:36 AM   #58
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Next door to Florida Man, world's worst superhero.
Posts: 14,810
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
And we have another vote for might makes right!
So evil shouldn't be opposed with force?
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2017, 10:44 AM   #59
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 29,977
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
There's a difference between remembering our history and memorializing it. These statues were intended to honor those statues are intended to honor Confederate soldiers. We can remember the crime of the Civil War without celebrating the criminals.
I think there is a disconnect here.

This memorial neither remembers history nor memorialized any real occurrence. It is a fiction presented as history. It is, perhaps, worth saving only as a historic artifact of the attempt.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"You are the herp to my derp" -- bit_pattern
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2017, 12:25 PM   #60
JoeBentley
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeBentley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 8,146
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
And we have another vote for might makes right!
So the only reason owning other human beings is wrong is because the stronger side so?

The Union winning the Civil War was a good thing, everyone gets that right?
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Hating a bad thing does not make you good." - David Wong
JoeBentley is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2017, 12:50 PM   #61
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 55,437
Originally Posted by Resume View Post
I am pretty sure the Spirit of the Confederacy was small batch woodsy distilled whiskey.
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2017, 12:52 PM   #62
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 55,437
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
It certainly WAS treasonous ... to England.

How many monuments to the Colonials are there in England?
True!!!
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2017, 12:53 PM   #63
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 55,437
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
And we have another vote for might makes right!
No, but it does get to make the decisions!
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2017, 12:58 PM   #64
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 55,437
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
There's a difference between remembering our history and memorializing it. These statues were intended to honor those statues are intended to honor Confederate soldiers. We can remember the crime of the Civil War without celebrating the criminals.
The part I greened is duplicated right after the greening stops! That is why I greened it!!! Unfortunately I do the same thing from time to time (or, more precisely. a nudge or adjustment moves the location of the typing to where it should not be!)........
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2017, 05:32 PM   #65
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,311
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
It certainly WAS treasonous ... to England.

How many monuments to the Colonials are there in England?
Well, ummm...

https://www.guidelondon.org.uk/blog/...idents-london/
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2017, 07:50 PM   #66
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 43,980
I think what's needed is a monument to monuments, and to the spirit of monuments. And, to ensure an equal voice to opposing viewpoints, there should also be a monument to the spirit of removing monuments. And a third monument to commemorate the other two monuments. Only by multiplicity into absurdity can real healing be achieved.
__________________
One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2017, 07:57 PM   #67
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 36,795
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Whether you agree with the ideals of the soldiers involved in that war or not, this is the purposeful destruction of history. I don't see this as any better than the burning of the Library of Alexandria. Our descendants should be able to view our history as it was, not with some saccharine shine of political correctness being rewritten to appease some multi-generational guilt.
Look, I'll give you one or the other....

A) I can call them deplorables
B) I can destroy their misguided memorials and monuments to being deplorables

This isn't "history". Other than "The History of the Kind of **** People Put Up in the Jim Crow Era".
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

Help! We're being attacked by sea lions!
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2017, 08:07 PM   #68
Babbylonian
Penultimate Amazing
 
Babbylonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,016
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Look, I'll give you one or the other....

A) I can call them deplorables
B) I can destroy their misguided memorials and monuments to being deplorables

This isn't "history". Other than "The History of the Kind of **** People Put Up in the Jim Crow Era".
Remember when it was cool to pretend that black people had equal rights while taking every opportunity to show that they'd never really be considered equal? I'm so wistful.
Babbylonian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2017, 08:25 PM   #69
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 43,980
The more I think of it, the more appealing I find the idea of a monument to iconoclasm. We should really take up a collection and make that happen.
__________________
One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2017, 10:11 PM   #70
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 21,696
I think in this day and age it ought to be possible to create virtual monuments. You could get a set of virtual reality glasses and dial in the silliness you want memorialized, and there it will be, just for you. The nambypamby social justice warriors will walk by unaware of why you are smiling as you glory in the gore of martyrs, winning today the battles that were lost yesterday.

AS for TM's monument to iconoclasm, that has some merit too. Jean Tinguely got halfway there designing sculptures that destroy themselves. The proper monument to icononclasm will better this by not existing, and one day, the ideal will occur, so perfect in realization that it is immediately forgotten.
__________________
Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding. (Samuel Johnson)

I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2017, 03:12 AM   #71
CaptainHowdy
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 562
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
So evil shouldn't be opposed with force?
Nobody said it should.
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2017, 03:34 AM   #72
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 6,192
Originally Posted by bigred View Post
Forget the knife, it'd take a chainsaw to cut through the self-righteous stupidity in this thread.
So true. Only good ole butt cracks in low trou mode know how to vandalize right proper. Negotiating the removal of an ode to idiocy using what, laws and courts? Ha! Limp libdem nonsense.
__________________
Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion. Spends that time videogaming.
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2017, 06:11 AM   #73
applecorped
Rotten to the Core
 
applecorped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 17,376
Destruction in the name of righteousness!
__________________
All You Need Is Love.
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2017, 06:14 AM   #74
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 43,980
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
AS for TM's monument to iconoclasm, that has some merit too. Jean Tinguely got halfway there designing sculptures that destroy themselves. The proper monument to icononclasm will better this by not existing, and one day, the ideal will occur, so perfect in realization that it is immediately forgotten.
Actually, since we're thinking of a monument to iconoclasm, the idea exists. Therefore in a sense the universe is packed to the brim with nonexistent monuments to iconoclasm. The only places that don't have nonexistent monuments to iconoclasm are in fact the spaces occupied by other monuments. The cosmos is divided into two: space occupied by monuments, and spaces not-occupied by not-monuments to iconoclasm. The latter space is vastly larger than the former, so I'm counting that as a win for me. Hooray!
__________________
One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2017, 06:39 AM   #75
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pie City, Arcadia
Posts: 21,283
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The more I think of it, the more appealing I find the idea of a monument to iconoclasm. We should really take up a collection and make that happen.
Pile up a stack of chunks of previously smashed monuments. Cheap!

In fact you'd probably win a prize for modern art. Profit!
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2017, 06:44 AM   #76
JoeBentley
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeBentley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 8,146
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Nobody said it should.
Then what exactly are you saying because frankly I'm lost.

What exactly is the problem?

This is just one of those things I can't believe there are actually people on the other side of it.

When you lose the war you were fighting to keep doing a terrible thing you don't get to have monuments to it. What's the flippin' mystery?

Not every underdog that fights to the bitter end for their lost cause is on the right side of history.

"History is written by the winners" doesn't mean the losers were always right.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Hating a bad thing does not make you good." - David Wong
JoeBentley is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2017, 07:18 AM   #77
Resume
Troublesome Passenger
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,604
Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Destruction in the name of righteousness!
What destruction exactly? The thing is merely being moved to another location where the confederacy fetishists may worship it.
__________________
A sentimental materialization of the kind of quasi‐rural bonhomie that seemed a millimeter from actual goose‐stepping and brown‐shirt uproars of bumpkin fascism.

Tom McGuane
Resume is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2017, 02:04 PM   #78
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 55,437
Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Then what exactly are you saying because frankly I'm lost.

What exactly is the problem?

This is just one of those things I can't believe there are actually people on the other side of it.

When you lose the war you were fighting to keep doing a terrible thing you don't get to have monuments to it. What's the flippin' mystery?

Not every underdog that fights to the bitter end for their lost cause is on the right side of history.

"History is written by the winners" doesn't mean the losers were always right.
Or even ever right!!!!!!!!
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2017, 02:27 PM   #79
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 21,696
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Pile up a stack of chunks of previously smashed monuments. Cheap!

In fact you'd probably win a prize for modern art. Profit!
But as soon as you put it up, consistency demands that you knock it down!
__________________
Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding. (Samuel Johnson)

I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2017, 03:07 PM   #80
JoeBentley
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeBentley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 8,146
Alright we really need to figure out exactly where the disconnect here is.

Here are some statement of facts. Let me know where exactly I lose you.

1. The Civil War was about slavery.
2. The Confederate States were treasonous.
3. The Confederate States lost the war.
4. The Confederate States losing the war was a good thing.
5. Having monuments in place to celebrate the losing side of a war makes no sense.

Now let me pre-counter the standard "Confederate Cause" apologetics.

1. "Well technically the Civil War wasn't about sla..." let me me just stop you right there. Yes. Yes it was. Completely and totally. All the one stepped removed nonsense doublespeak is just historical revisionism.
2. "Well the North was racist too!" Okay? And?
3. "But it's history!" No. A monument is not history. A museum is history. A historical placard is history. A monument is a celebration of something.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Hating a bad thing does not make you good." - David Wong
JoeBentley is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:58 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.