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Tags donald trump , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 3rd July 2017, 08:21 AM   #121
The Don
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Any value based statement, even ones stating there is an objective value, is an opinion that someone thinks.
That's true, but in some cases it is merely a subjective assessment against an arbitrary set of criteria, in other cases it may be an objective assessment against a defined set of criteria.

Sometimes Mrs Don says that I'm driving too quickly/slowly - that's a subjective assessment, in some cases made when she hasn't even looked at the speedometer. OTOH if she looks at the speedometer and I'm going faster than 70 mph on the motorway then, regardless of my own personal opinion on the matter, I am driving too quickly.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 08:21 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
I don't get it
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Old 3rd July 2017, 08:29 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
That's true, but in some cases it is merely a subjective assessment against an arbitrary set of criteria, in other cases it may be an objective assessment against a defined set of criteria.

Sometimes Mrs Don says that I'm driving too quickly/slowly - that's a subjective assessment, in some cases made when she hasn't even looked at the speedometer. OTOH if she looks at the speedometer and I'm going faster than 70 mph on the motorway then, regardless of my own personal opinion on the matter, I am driving too quickly.
That is still a concept of objective good. There exists a speed that is unacceptable. You may not know what it is or each person with limited knowledge can only guess what it is. That is different from a statement that it should be whatever the majority agrees to.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 08:29 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
A) statement was unqualified.
I assumed that you had basic understanding of human life and thus that you would understand what opinions are.

I shan't make this mistake again.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 08:32 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That is still a concept of objective good. There exists a speed that is unacceptable. You may not know what it is or each person with limited knowledge can only guess what it is. That is different from a statement that it should be whatever the majority agrees to.
It's objective, at least from a legal perspective, but Argumemnon says it better than I can..

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I assumed that you had basic understanding of human life and thus that you would understand what opinions are.

I shan't make this mistake again.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 08:36 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't get it
Symbol on the right is the dem symbol. Blokes on the right are Dems. Complete with 25th amendment and strait jacket. No it isn't funny.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 08:41 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I assumed that you had basic understanding of human life and thus that you would understand what opinions are.

I shan't make this mistake again.
Your statement is still an embrace of objective good. There is a world of difference between there being a good and you have your own interpretation of what it is, and that there is no concept of good outside of what is arrived at in aggregate. Your statements seem clearly with the former.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 08:48 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Symbol on the right is the dem symbol. Blokes on the right are Dems. Complete with 25th amendment and strait jacket. No it isn't funny.
The message is supposed to be: "If Trump was as crazy as the Dems say, then his supporters would have to be crazy. And since they've decided that they are always right, Trump's detractors must be the crazy ones."
Logical fallacy at its finest.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 09:14 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The message is supposed to be: "If Trump was as crazy as the Dems say, then his supporters would have to be crazy. And since they've decided that they are always right, Trump's detractors must be the crazy ones."
Logical fallacy at its finest.
I have the luxury of dispassionate observation from half a world away. I have no party affiliation, not american, not a member of either partisan side. Visited several times. Mostly San Fran, Palo Alto, Chicago.

By and large, my experience has been most pleasant. These are all generally good folks. In terms of "happy", they come a close second to the Kiwis. Nevertheless, they voted a man-child into their highest office. A man who cannot help acting on the impulse of the moment. A man who has his finger on the nuclear button.

This is disturbing.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 09:59 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Firestone View Post
....
Compare that to Hillary Clinton, who, for example, changed her position on trade under pressure from Sanders. That made her look weak and unprincipled.
As opposed to Trump who changed his position on everything every other day?

Trump looked manly, Clinton looked weak?

I don't think changing positions was the variable here.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 10:09 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
A significant number of Trump voters, ~40%, get their news exclusively from Fox News. If that was your only source of news, you'd have a warped view of reality too.
I expect a pretty significant portion of the rest find Fox too liberal and get it only from Breitbart, WND, or worse.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 03:06 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I expect a pretty significant portion of the rest find Fox too liberal and get it only from Breitbart, WND, or worse.
And then there's those who get their news from Sinclair, courtesy of their local TV station. Last Week Tonight put the spotlight on them last night, and that segment is the free-to-view segment on YouTube this week:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 3rd July 2017, 03:59 PM   #133
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Talking

For those who found that cartoon too complicated, consider going to Teheran:

Iran holds ‘Trumpism’ cartoon contest mocking US president (PHOTOS)

Originally Posted by RT
An Iranian cartoonist has taken the top prize for a ‘Trumpism’ exhibition aimed at mocking the US president. The winning work of art features the billionaire wearing a suit of money while his hair is ablaze.

The contest – sponsored by Iran's Organization for Sacred Defense Artistic and Cinema Affairs – featured over 1,600 works of art from 75 countries, according to the Tehran Times.

The winner, Hadi Asadi, received US$1,500, a trophy, and a plaque on Monday, Haaretz reported. [...]

“This contest considers Trump as a symbol of US capitalism and hegemony that many intellectuals compare with Nazism,” said Shojaei-Tabatabai, who presided over the contest, as quoted by the Tehran Times.

The director of the organization that sponsored the event, Ali-Asghar Jafari, said the theme was chosen because Trump “represents the real image of America.”

“Trump’s behavior clearly sets out Iran’s reasons to distrust the US, consequently, we decided to use art’s capacity for displaying the behavior,” he said during a press conference on Saturday.

“Aside from his personal characteristics, Trump has also posed different challenges to the world and treats Iran and the Islamic world unconventionally in particular.”

The same organizers of the event held a controversial Holocaust cartoon contest last year, which denounced what they claim is Western double standards on free speech.

A selection of the contest submissions will be showcased in exhibitions in Iran and 11 other countries, including the Netherlands, Belgium, Indonesia, Brazil and Turkey. [...]

The trophy, though ... are you sure he is American? Looks a bit Canadian to me!

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Old 3rd July 2017, 04:22 PM   #134
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There's a moron loose in the White House who has been degrading the office of the President of the United States and ruining America and refuses to confront Putin's meddling in the 2016 US elections .

It is as if Trump is working for the Russians.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 04:37 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
OTOH IMO if you say "I think this is a good movie" then any risk of such misinterpretation is removed and it's clear that you're merely providing a personal opinion
Any value based statement, even ones stating there is an objective value, is an opinion that someone thinks.

Is a functioning keyboard on your computer better than one with half the keys missing?
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Old 3rd July 2017, 04:56 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
That's "modern presidential" for you

Trump is a fake president and a fake wrestler as well.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 05:03 PM   #137
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I've noticed that congress, states, local governments, energy and high tech companies are bypassing an incompetent Trump and taking matters into their own hands and it is about time!!

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Old 3rd July 2017, 05:24 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Not my POTUS. I don't support him. But I do have to say that this is the type of hilarious stuff I looked forward to when trump won the election.

That isn't how it works.

I don't support him either. I didn't vote for him.

But he's the POTUS we got, and I support the system, even if I don't always like the results.

He isn't the first one I don't like, and I doubt he'll be the last.

But until I support disregarding that system he's still "our" POTUS as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, I'm ashamed of my country for electing him, but it's still my country.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 05:33 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Few people make nothing but dumb tweets, however.

This might be true of the average Twitter user, but I'm not sure it is true about the average Trump supporter.

I kinda doubt they even like tweets that aren't dumb.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 05:35 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
And then there's those who get their news from Sinclair, courtesy of their local TV station. Last Week Tonight put the spotlight on them last night, and that segment is the free-to-view segment on YouTube this week:
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Thank you SO VERY MUCH for reminding me of how glad I am that I'll either be dead or out-of-it in thirty years. We're all screwed.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 06:32 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Kasich certainly appears to be positioning himself to run again in 2020. It also wouldn't surprise me to see the McMullin crowd push Ben Sasse to run.
Although one serious challenger might be better than many.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 09:59 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Although one serious challenger might be better than many.
If President Trump's popularity is so very low among the GOP that he isn't a certainty for the GOP nomination, then I'd argue that the GOP is more or less bound to lose the Presidential election.

If that's the case, if you're a serious challenger, wouldn't it be better to wait until 2024 instead of running in 2020 and risking having any dirty laundry you may have (even the imaginary kind) aired by Trump - thus killing your Presidential hopes stone dead ?
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Old 3rd July 2017, 11:39 PM   #143
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Running for nomination is an occupation for Republicans: it's not about winning, it's about getting free airtime and attracting the notice of Big Donors. Candidates regularly make good money campaigning even if they never get past 1% votes or so.
So there will be plenty of Republicans pretending to clamor for the nomination, even though none will have a chance if Trump is still around by then and decides to run.
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Old 4th July 2017, 12:38 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
No, W earned his opposition just like Trump has earned, and continues to earn, his opposition now.
W was opposed in an inappropriate way from day one. Literately, his car was egged en route to inauguration and it went downhill from there.

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Old 4th July 2017, 12:46 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
I think the lesson from Trump is that changing your position when it's convenient is fine as long as your timing is good and you're sufficiently brazen about it. I recall Trump angrily insisting that he'd always been against the war in Iraq despite that being a lie. He also abandoned birtherism after he'd gotten everything he could out of it. Neither of those things seemed to hurt him much among Republicans.
Trump is many things, but dumb isn't among them. He knows exactly what his supporters care about and how to present it in a way it'll make them adore him even more. The significant danger to his opposition is they'll start to underestimate him because his talking points are to transparently false and they'll think Trump is too dumb to notice.

The thing is, Trump is not too dumb to notice his talking points are ridiculous. He knows they are and he also knows his supporters are too dumb to notice it and he's milking this for all it's worth and then some. It worked well enough thus far.

The quote:

"If I were to run, I'd run as a Republican. They're the dumbest group of voters in the country. They believe anything on Fox news. I could lie and they'd still eat it up. I bet my numbers would be terrific."

is firmly in the "fake but accurate" category.

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Old 4th July 2017, 01:01 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
If President Trump's popularity is so very low among the GOP that he isn't a certainty for the GOP nomination, then I'd argue that the GOP is more or less bound to lose the Presidential election.

If that's the case, if you're a serious challenger, wouldn't it be better to wait until 2024 instead of running in 2020 and risking having any dirty laundry you may have (even the imaginary kind) aired by Trump - thus killing your Presidential hopes stone dead ?
Not really. Trump has more people calling for his impeachment than supporting him at the moment. These numbers aren't bound to improve anytime soon.

http://www.newsweek.com/support-dona...-rating-631212

All in all even if Trump does air all sorts of real and fake dirty laundry, you can wear it as a badge of honor and it'll win you more support than it'll cost you. Without major upheavals, Trump will receive 40% of votes and you need to obtain enough of the rest to defeat him. It's not easy or pretty, but it's a better chance than most. A politician has only about 5-6 shots to become a president, I'm sure the Democrat party can produce 1-2 viable candidates per election cycle and not run out of potential presidents.

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Old 4th July 2017, 01:30 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Not really. Trump has more people calling for his impeachment than supporting him at the moment. These numbers aren't bound to improve anytime soon.

http://www.newsweek.com/support-dona...-rating-631212

All in all even if Trump does air all sorts of real and fake dirty laundry, you can wear it as a badge of honor and it'll win you more support than it'll cost you. Without major upheavals, Trump will receive 40% of votes and you need to obtain enough of the rest to defeat him. It's not easy or pretty, but it's a better chance than most. A politician has only about 5-6 shots to become a president, I'm sure the Democrat party can produce 1-2 viable candidates per election cycle and not run out of potential presidents.

McHrozni
I agree with the highlighted. For too long, politicians of every stripe have gone into full meltdown when anything which can be perceived as being negative is brought up. Quite often the denial, cover up and explanation is far more damaging than the original allegation ever was.

- You said this forty years ago when you were in college
- No I didn't
- Yes you did here's the transcript
- Well yes I said it but I didn't mean it then and I don't mean it now
(the politician is now a proven liar and flip-flopper)

Contrast this with the "owning it" approach

- You said this forty years ago when you were in college
- Yes, guess I was a bit of an ass in college let me explain how I've changed
(the politician looks human)


edited to add....

In any case the comment to which you were referring related only to GOP challengers to Trump.

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Old 4th July 2017, 01:38 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Running for nomination is an occupation for Republicans: it's not about winning, it's about getting free airtime and attracting the notice of Big Donors. Candidates regularly make good money campaigning even if they never get past 1% votes or so.
So there will be plenty of Republicans pretending to clamor for the nomination, even though none will have a chance if Trump is still around by then and decides to run.
Sure, but those are professional candidates, who never expect to win the nomination, much less the Presidency.

Puppycow was asking about "serious challengers" not serial candidates. I think that if you're a GOP member with serious ambition to become President then if Trump is running in 2020 and he still has 80% approval rating among GOP supporters then I don't think someone who has legitimate ambitions to be President should challenge him in the primaries.
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Old 4th July 2017, 01:47 AM   #149
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I agree with the highlighted. For too long, politicians of every stripe have gone into full meltdown when anything which can be perceived as being negative is brought up. Quite often the denial, cover up and explanation is far more damaging than the original allegation ever was.

- You said this forty years ago when you were in college
- No I didn't
- Yes you did here's the transcript
- Well yes I said it but I didn't mean it then and I don't mean it now
(the politician is now a proven liar and flip-flopper)

Contrast this with the "owning it" approach

- You said this forty years ago when you were in college
- Yes, guess I was a bit of an ass in college let me explain how I've changed
(the politician looks human)
Yeah. It would be interesting to know why that's the case. I see two main possibilities:

1. Owning it appeals to a smaller segment of population. If a plurality prefers a flip-flopper who claims he was always perfect than a credible politicians who acknowledges his past mistakes and resolves not to repeat them then politicians are herded towards asinine behavior even if it's not natural to them. Those who don't are weeded out by the electorate quickly.

2. Self-selection, people who own and resolve to correct their problems are the kind who don't want to enter politics in the first place.

It could be a bit of both. In fact, I'd say it probably is a little of each.

Quote:
In any case the comment to which you were referring related only to GOP challengers to Trump.
I see. I think it's too early to say that it's better for candidates to wait it out. A lot could happen between now and 2020, including a split in the Republican party. Trump would have to head the retard wing, he has no base outside of it. The sane wing would then have to mount a challenge, with as good a candidate as possible, in order to present themselves as distinct from Trump. If the best Democrats have to offer is "at least we aren't Trump", he would actually have a chance of winning too.

Even if that doesn't happen and the sane wing and the retards remain allied it still makes sense for at least the older candidates to try to stand up to Trump. If he wins in 2024 it'll be 2032 before a Republican has a shot at winning the election and if he doesn't could still be 2028.

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Old 4th July 2017, 01:50 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Sure, but those are professional candidates, who never expect to win the nomination, much less the Presidency.

Puppycow was asking about "serious challengers" not serial candidates. I think that if you're a GOP member with serious ambition to become President then if Trump is running in 2020 and he still has 80% approval rating among GOP supporters then I don't think someone who has legitimate ambitions to be President should challenge him in the primaries.
If these are the only considerations, you'd be right. But these aren't the only considerations, a serious contender could still hope to join him in the cabinet, earning experience for later. Trump airing dirty laundry today won't hurt so much 12 years later. Alternatively if the candidate is old, too old to wait that long, he could still mount a challenge because he has little to lose anyway. These aren't elves we're talking about, the candidates don't have 100 or more election cycles to make their attempt, you can hope for 5-6 attempts at best. If Trump eats one and then another two when GOP has no chance at winning, that's half your life chances worth gone with the wind through no fault but inaction on your part.

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Old 4th July 2017, 02:27 AM   #151
The Great Zaganza
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If I were to steelman Trump. I'd say that he's playing pretty much the only cards he's got: showing the GOP that he controls their base and that he therefore has them by the short&curlies. It would be logical for GOP leaders to use Trump's lack of experience and self-control to deflect all criticism to him, but that would be mutually assured destruction.
Of course, Trump can't win the fight against the media: every time he mentions a TV show or host, all his satellites and all media outlets have to report on them, giving them free publicity. All the Talking Heads spared from Trump's wrath so far will double their efforts to draw his ire in the hope of a dis-honorable mention in his Tweets - attempts at intimidation is what they want, not fear from the President.

But what else can Trump do?
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Old 4th July 2017, 02:58 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
That isn't how it works.

I don't support him either. I didn't vote for him.
But he's the POTUS we got, and I support the system, even if I don't always like the results.
He isn't the first one I don't like, and I doubt he'll be the last.
But until I support disregarding that system he's still "our" POTUS as far as I'm concerned.
Yeah, I'm ashamed of my country for electing him, but it's still my country.
"My country, right or wrong" is a questionable position to take.
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Old 4th July 2017, 02:59 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
OTOH in 3 years time a lot of people who are not pro-Trump will be so tired by his antics and GOP policy that they will start to become disenchanted with a democratic process that can put this kind of President in office. If that's the case then unless the Democratic Party put up a candidate who is actively attractive (as opposed to merely being a competent politician who isn't Trump) then these people won't turn out to vote and Trump could once again become President with a minority of the popular vote but by winning the electoral college.
I agree with you but I can't come up with someone who fits the highlight. Warren is out (too old). Ditto Sanders. Who?

If the Dems could find (or get?) a Jon Huntsman, they could run the board. He's not my ideal but he would get nearly all the middle roaders.

As I sit here now, it looks to me the Dems have a very weak bench. Having said that, I do recognize that at this time in 2008 I would not have known who Obama was.
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Old 4th July 2017, 03:01 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The next election is 18 months away. The next presidential election is 3.5 years away. If the legislative election goes the same way the four special elections went a few weeks ago, Trump will be looking at a DNC-controlled legislature. He can't cope with that.
Huh?? The Dems lost all four. And don't give me that **** that the races were close. BFD. A loss is a loss.
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Old 4th July 2017, 03:11 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
But as soon as anything serious gets passed, half of the Republicans base will get pissed off.
That's not what will kill him because his support is not about policy. I think only two things have the potential to make GOPers turn on him:

1) a military blunder. Americans killed for no reason. We get dragged back into the Middle East where nobody wants to go.

2) A USA terror attack. And Trump is as effective as you're-doing-a-heckova-job-Brownie was during Katrina.
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Old 4th July 2017, 03:13 AM   #156
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I think that the economy failing will turn everyone against him.
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Old 4th July 2017, 03:17 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I think that the economy failing will turn everyone against him.

Those that are for him are getting their information only from sources that laud him. The economy fails, it will be someone else's fault (probably the black fellow that had the office before him).

Anyone that still supports him now will be still supporting him while standing the ashes of their home while Trump, with a still hissing flame-thrower, uses his free hand to point leftwards and proclaim 'they made me do it'
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Old 4th July 2017, 03:29 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Trump is many things, but dumb isn't among them. He knows exactly what his supporters care about and how to present it in a way it'll make them adore him even more.

...snip...
Utterly disagree, he hasn't a clue, his approach takes no intelligence at all. If you want to see his rank stupidity in action find the clip of when he worked his way up to saying Obama founded ISIS. You will see all he was doing was reacting to the crowd feedback until even his crowd realised he was being stupid. In concluding Trump is intelligent you are really using the Texas sharpshooter fallacy. Yes some of what he throws out sticks with his supporters but many interviews with his supporters show they actually credit him with many things he hasn't said or done. During the election I said he was the Rorschach test candidate, he's now the Rorschach test President people read into his many incoherent sentences what they want.
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Old 4th July 2017, 03:41 AM   #159
The Don
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I agree with you but I can't come up with someone who fits the highlight. Warren is out (too old). Ditto Sanders. Who?

If the Dems could find (or get?) a Jon Huntsman, they could run the board. He's not my ideal but he would get nearly all the middle roaders.

As I sit here now, it looks to me the Dems have a very weak bench. Having said that, I do recognize that at this time in 2008 I would not have known who Obama was.
I'm not close enough to US politics to know. By the time they appear on the UK media, they've already made it into the mainstream.

I thought Kamala Harris was impressive recently and I realise that her views on abortion, gun control and the death penalty will not endear her to GOP voters but it may get Democratic Party supporters out especially if she embraces being liberal and/or progressive rather than appearing to be embarrassed.
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Old 4th July 2017, 03:49 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Thank you SO VERY MUCH for reminding me of how glad I am that I'll either be dead or out-of-it in thirty years. We're all screwed.
Ditto.

To add some context, the John Oliver video is absolutely scary. Between Fox and Sinclair Broadcasting the nation appears to have lost TV/Radio access to reality.

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