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Tags donald trump , lying charges , Russia conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , US-Russia relations , vladimir putin

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Old 17th July 2017, 01:42 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I'd say agreeing to the meeting is more relevant than saying, "I love it."

Information often has value. That's why insider trading is a crime.
So information has been bought and been given for free. So go ahead put a value on information that was free so you can have your narrative

Do you see how ridiculous this value point is? Who's going to value this information. Not to mention information that doesn't exist.

How are going to value non existing information?
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Old 17th July 2017, 01:43 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
How amusing when even Trump's own right-backed Rasmussen poll shows a decline since he took office.
Are you disavowing your own disgustingly made up fake news poll.

Thanks for making my point.
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Old 17th July 2017, 01:45 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
It proves that Trump Jr. sought to collude with the Russians, and he said that "he loved it,"which is illegal and there is nothing you can say about it because we have Trump Jr.'s own emails as proof.
Except she wasn't a Russian government official and Trump didnt even know who she was. You're just making it up as you go along, it's absolutely sad and hilarious at the same time.
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Old 17th July 2017, 01:45 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
He never paid for the NON information...
Sez Junior.
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Old 17th July 2017, 01:50 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Do you know what "value" means? A thing you value is literally something you like.
Lol
The post above mine accuses me of being desperate, and you can't seem to understand that something free is simply free. You cannot asses it with value because there is no controlling authority to asses that value. Not to mention no information was offered. That is desperation.

Quote:
And you couldn't be more desperate. You were literally dancing last Novembre and now your side is about to lose big time.
How in Gods name do you not see I'm still dancing? The euforia of that win will last for many years. The euforia of your sides defeat in this will once again have lasting memories.
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Old 17th July 2017, 01:52 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Sez Junior.
Well, you could just assign the payment to him since you're going to need it for your narrative. That should keep it going for a few more days.

On a skeptics site.
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Old 17th July 2017, 01:57 PM   #247
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It's this line that stands out to me,

Quote:
This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump
Jr doesn't even flinch when he reads this. His response isn't, "what support?" He already knows there is an effort.
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:01 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by magellan View Post
It's two points actually.
We haven't been always been at war with eastasia back in 2008, so it's a bit unfair. Like posting pictures of kerry and assad dining or rumsfeld meeting hussein.

Second is that I would be very suprised if somebody who is in buisness in international real estate hadn't had significant contact with the russian elite.
You missed the point yourself, then.

This has nothing to do with doing business with Russia, so to say there were fewer political issues in 2008 is moot. If Trump were not POTUS under suspicion of collusion with Russia now his financial ties to Russia would also not be a problem.

Trump claims to have no ties to Russia, financial or otherwise. The facts dispute his assertion.

His financial ties are motive for his wanting to end all our sanctions against Russia and for Trump ignoring Russian interference in our election. IOW Trump is as corrupt as hell.
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:02 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Its worse than that. Removing Trump for such a ridiculous narrative is only going to harden the right and our new found blue collar voters.
If this scandal gets as far as removing him it will no longer be a ridiculous narrative - there will be significant buy-in to oust him under either impeachment procedures or 25th Amendment procedures.

Trump is not good for the USA, logger. You might be instinctively defending him because liberals can't stand him, but that's not good reasoning, IMO.
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:06 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
But is it losing if we end up with President Mike Pence? From the perspective of the Trump supporters here, Pence could easily be seen as an improvement.

Even I think that and I share none of Pence's agenda.
Pence is just as much in trouble. As transition team leader, he knew about Flynn and the others.

'Course, that means ending up with Paul Ryan. But there's 2018, too.
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:08 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
When the majority of professionals start saying that this meeting is a crime, I'll buy into it. Right now, it looks like most professionals are either saying it wasn't, or withholding judgment. I'm going with the latter. It would not surprise me in the least to learn that crimes were committed either at that meeting or in connection with that meeting. However, the mere existence of the meeting doesn't seem like a crime to me, not even when the associated emails are included.
I would second that.
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:10 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I'm starting to think that your continued "neutrality" hides something else.
Aye, there's the rub. If one doesn't jump wholeheartedly on the bus... then clearly that's evidence that such person has a hidden agenda, right? Their failure to accept the circumstantial speculation as hard evidence doesn't make them neutral or skeptical... their failure to accept all suggestion as fact means that they're totally partisan!

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Old 17th July 2017, 02:17 PM   #253
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In-kind contributions are reportable, and in fact Trump Jr. says, "The information they suggested they had about Hillary Clinton I thought was Political Opposition Research."

Political opposition research (not sure why Jr. capitalizes it) is something campaigns pay for and exactly what Don Jr. was hoping to receive. Even if the only thing discussed was adoptions, adoptions are part of the sanctions and counter-sanctions involving the U.S. and Russia.

Insider trading is a crime, based on nothing but information. No confidential information, no crime.

Public opinion of Team Trump probably would hit bottom, if TT would only stop digging.
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:18 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
It's this line that stands out to me,



Jr doesn't even flinch when he reads this. His response isn't, "what support?" He already knows there is an effort.
Lol

You're a mind reader now?
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:19 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Actually, according to Trump himself, yes, such Information has monetary value: when he called upon Russia to hack Clinton to find the missing emails, he explicitly said that the press would pay them well for their efforts.
Plenty of networks pay for such dirt all the time.
False.

Quote:
Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing. I think that you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press—let’s see if that happens, that’ll be nice.
Rewarded <> paid.
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:21 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
When the majority of professionals start saying that this meeting is a crime, I'll buy into it. Right now, it looks like most professionals are either saying it wasn't, or withholding judgment. I'm going with the latter. It would not surprise me in the least to learn that crimes were committed either at that meeting or in connection with that meeting. However, the mere existence of the meeting doesn't seem like a crime to me, not even when the associated emails are included.
I would second that.
What about the precedent that information does have a value in electioneering? Admittedly giving the GOP a list of conservative voters didn't have much value, but it still did - Opposition research would have a greater value. Opposition research that only could have come from illegal activities even more so. ~~

Remember the email said
"This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump"
Donald junior (who has already changed his story about the meeting, after evidence came out contradicting his first version of events) believed it was someone acting on behalf of the Russian government. The translator in the room was a former Russian agent.

I see no reason to believe either of the Trump's when they change their story.
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:21 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
If this scandal gets as far as removing him it will no longer be a ridiculous narrative - there will be significant buy-in to oust him under either impeachment procedures or 25th Amendment procedures.
If? Love it!

If Obama was caught orchestrating a gun running program?
If Hillary was caught misusing classified info, oh wait!

See what I'm getting at?
Quote:
Trump is not good for the USA, logger. You might be instinctively defending him because liberals can't stand him, but that's not good reasoning, IMO.
Lol
Trump is actually exactly what we need, your first clue would be how the disgusting left is acting. Besides I'm delighted in what he's doing.
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:23 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Aye, there's the rub. If one doesn't jump wholeheartedly on the bus... then clearly that's evidence that such person has a hidden agenda, right? Their failure to accept the circumstantial speculation as hard evidence doesn't make them neutral or skeptical... their failure to accept all suggestion as fact means that they're totally partisan!

You know, skeptics.
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:25 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Except she wasn't a Russian government official and Trump didnt even know who she was. You're just making it up as you go along, it's absolutely sad and hilarious at the same time.
You believe that?

She was the lead representative in a really big case involving corruption in the New York real estate market.

I've read that Trump knows a thing or two about that market.
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:26 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post

Public opinion of Team Trump probably would hit bottom, if TT would only stop digging.
If you knew anything about public opinion and could come away from your partisan investment in Russia gate you might see how pissed people are that this has continued and how much it has caused people to galvanise around him. Wait till the dems draw up impeachment articles on this, maybe then the civil war will start?
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:27 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Aye, there's the rub. If one doesn't jump wholeheartedly on the bus... then clearly that's evidence that such person has a hidden agenda, right?
Oh, spare me. You've been at this since November. Changing your mind now, when all this has become so obvious, almost a year in, wouldn't be "wholeheartedly jumping on the bus". What an utterly dishonest response from you.
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:27 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
What about the precedent that information does have a value in electioneering?
I'll wait on the ruling of the lawyers, as opposed to the layman's opinion coming from a gaggle of people with very strong political opinions on the topic.
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:28 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
The post above mine accuses me of being desperate, and you can't seem to understand that something free is simply free. You cannot asses it with value because there is no controlling authority to asses that value.
Wow, that is the epitome of desperation. You will literally say anything to avoid admitting the obvious. That is so sad.

"Value: the regard that something is held to deserve; the importance, worth, or usefulness of something."

You know full well that monetary value has nothing to do with this.

Quote:
How in Gods name do you not see I'm still dancing?
You can dance all you want to forget the ills that befall you, but you'll have no place left when the music stops.

Quote:
The euforia of your sides defeat in this will once again have lasting memories.
You still don't understand that the Democrats aren't my "side", do you?
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:28 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
You believe that?

She was the lead representative in a really big case involving corruption in the New York real estate market.

I've read that Trump knows a thing or two about that market.
Did you want to guess about it, the evidence says he didn't. Who cares what I believe?
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:32 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Wow, that is the epitome of desperation. You will literally say anything to avoid admitting the obvious. That is so sad.

What's obvious is the facts as we know them. Your guessing and projecting only shows your extreme partisanship.
Quote:
"Value: the regard that something is held to deserve; the importance, worth, or usefulness of something."

You know full well that monetary value has nothing to do with this.
Have you read the statute?



Quote:
You can dance all you want to forget the ills that befall you, but you'll have no place left when the music stops.
I'm actually laughing at you, out loud to.
Where is my violin?


Quote:
You still don't understand that the Democrats aren't my "side", do you?
Lol
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:36 PM   #266
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Re: Equivocation

It's about two meanings of "value".

But, when all is said and done, we're just a bunch of folks yapping on the internet.

Trust the lawyers. They're paid to do this sort of thing. When I start seeing the heavyweights weigh in, I'll think they have something.

We've all been through this before, haven't we? Bill Clinton clearly committed crimes! Hillary clearly broke the law! Anyone old enough to remember 1998 knows the case against Bill Clinton was a lot more solid than this and........nothing happened. Much smoke, no fire. Clinton-haters blame partisanship. Lawyers blame not having a case, because lying under oath isn't necessarily perjury, and not cooperating, or even actively impeding, an investigation isn't obstruction of justice.

And meeting with someone who says they have dirt on your political opponent is not a violation of campaign finance law, even if you "love it".

Give it time. It took two years to finally find the proof that Richard Nixon was a crook, even though everyone knew he was a crook. The investigators have a lot of promising leads.
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:43 PM   #267
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Not only would Democrat politicians take meetings with alleged Russian agents peddling "dirt," but they too would later lie about it. So who's the hypocrite now??
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:47 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'll wait on the ruling of the lawyers, as opposed to the layman's opinion coming from a gaggle of people with very strong political opinions on the topic.

http://electionlawblog.org/?p=93762

Quote:
In MUR 5409 (2004), the Federal Election Commission voted 5-1 to accept the general counsel’s finding that Grover Norquist’s Americans for Tax Reform (a corporation) provided a “thing of value” to the Bush-Cheney reelection campaign. It was a list of conservative activists in 37 states. Some of the information may have been publicly available when Norquist gave it to Ken Mehlman of the campaign. The General Counsel found that this was a prohibited corporate contribution and that Bush-Cheney violated the law by failing to report it. But it found the list had so little value that the General Counsel did not recommend pursuing the matter further.
http://electionlawblog.org/?p=93752

Quote:
Following up on this post, there are remaining questions about whether providing “dirt” or files related to Hillary Clinton from Russian government sources could be considered a “thing of value” for purposes of the law barring the solicitation of contributions from foreign entities. I’ve already pointed to a 1990 advisory opinion of the FEC so suggesting, in the context of providing polling information (something intangible) free of charge. Here’s another, from 2007, that is even strong on the question of the breadth of the foreign contribution ban, even as to those things whose value may be “difficult to ascertain” (my emphases added):

Question 4. May your authorized committee accept election materials used in previous Canadian campaigns that are provided without charge by Canadian third party candidates?

No, your authorized committee may not accept election materials used in previous Canadian campaigns that are provided without charge by Canadian third party candidates. Your authorized committee may, however, expend campaign funds to purchase the materials. You may also use personal funds to purchase such materials.
Richard Painter in this video is pretty convincing and he's a fairly high powered lawyer

http://www.msnbc.com/brian-williams/...s-992230979862

A further followup interview with Richard Painter here:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...ans-disturbing
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:48 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
If? Love it!

If Obama was caught orchestrating a gun running program?
If Hillary was caught misusing classified info, oh wait!

See what I'm getting at?
No, I don't see what you're getting at.

Originally Posted by logger View Post
Besides I'm delighted in what he's doing.
OK, that's one data point.
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:52 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
If you knew anything about public opinion and could come away from your partisan investment in Russia gate you might see how pissed people are that this has continued and how much it has caused people to galvanise around him. Wait till the dems draw up impeachment articles on this, maybe then the civil war will start?
You don't know me, logger. I have no partisan investment in Russia gate. If you are hoping for a civil war, I don't think we can find common ground.
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:59 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Well, you could just assign the payment to him since you're going to need it for your narrative. That should keep it going for a few more days.

On a skeptics site.
Problem is, Junior went to the meeting expecting to get something of value and to find out the price. Then, he decided the info Veselnitskaya was peddling wasn't worth the price she was apparently asking: lifting the Magnitsky Act sanctions. However, she says she left the info she had, and just coincidentally, after Trump fired DoJ attorney Bharara for no apparent reason, the case he was handling against a company Veselnitskaya represented was settled for a relatively small fine and no criminal charges. A suspicious mind might think maybe Junior made a deal after all.

But hey, don't worry about Junior -- the old man will pardon him.
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:59 PM   #272
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[quote=logger;11923691What's obvious is the facts as we know them. Your guessing and projecting only shows your extreme partisanship.[/QUOTE]

I'm not even American. You are flailing about without aim.

Quote:
Have you read the statute?
And now you're moving the goalposts. How about you address the meaning of "value", which you were disputing a moment ago?

Quote:
I'm actually laughing at you, out loud to.
You've got it all wrong. You're the show, we're the audience.

Quote:
Lol
No, you really don't, do you?
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:59 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Not only would Democrat politicians take meetings with alleged Russian agents peddling "dirt," but they too would later lie about it. So who's the hypocrite now??
The Gore campaign was given the Bush campaign's debate prep book in 2000. They called the FBI.
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Old 17th July 2017, 03:00 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Re: Equivocation

It's about two meanings of "value".

But, when all is said and done, we're just a bunch of folks yapping on the internet.
Speaking of equivocation, you're essentially using the creationist's "yours is also a belief" defense.
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Old 17th July 2017, 03:01 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Besides I'm delighted in what he's doing.
What he's doing? Playing gold and acting like an idiot?
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Old 17th July 2017, 03:34 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Do you know what "value" means? A thing you value is literally something you like.



And you couldn't be more desperate. You were literally dancing last Novembre and now your side is about to lose big time.

Originally Posted by logger View Post
Lol
The post above mine accuses me of being desperate, and you can't seem to understand that something free is simply free. You cannot asses it with value because there is no controlling authority to asses that value. Not to mention no information was offered. That is desperation.


How in Gods name do you not see I'm still dancing? The euforia of that win will last for many years. The euforia of your sides defeat in this will once again have lasting memories.
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Donald Trump Jr. determined that the information had value. Otherwise why did he, Manafort and Kushner in the middle of a busy campaign schedule take the meeting?

Campaigns PAY BIG MONEY for opposition research. There was clearly an offer from a foreign national of something of value. This really isn't in question.
The truth is, it isn't up to us to define "something of value"

This might be for a court to decide...if the code/law posted before wasn't clear enough...
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Old 17th July 2017, 03:36 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Lol
The post above mine accuses me of being desperate, and you can't seem to understand that something free is simply free. You cannot asses it with value because there is no controlling authority to asses that value. Not to mention no information was offered. That is desperation.


How in Gods name do you not see I'm still dancing? The euforia of that win will last for many years. The euforia of your sides defeat in this will once again have lasting memories.
LOL

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Old 17th July 2017, 03:46 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
....Trust the lawyers. They're paid to do this sort of thing. When I start seeing the heavyweights weigh in, I'll think they have something....[snipped false equivalency]
You keep saying this but so far the lawyers out there insisting no crime was committed in Jr's meeting are mostly Trump lawyers. And Dershowitz is about as believable as Gingrich.

Jonathan Turley weighed in a week ago but his opinion is based on flawed reasoning. We know the meeting was not about Russian adoptions. Veselnitskaya has been lobbying to get the Magnitsky Act revoked for a long time. She's working to get sanctions lifted, she's not working for parents that want to adopt Russian kids.

Quote:
That would clearly constitute at least initial communications and possible coordination between the Russians and the Trump campaign. However, the article raises more questions than answers. If the Russians were making such a play to influence the election in favor of Trump, this is a curious way of going about it. The most obvious question is why the Russians would call such a meeting but not actually produce any evidence or even substantive allegations.

One obvious explanation is that Trump Jr., Kushner, and Manafort fell for a classic bait-and-switch. Veselnitskaya was representing people seeking to lift the adoption ban, and it was certainly amateur hour in Trump Tower. If this is the best the Russians can do as their big play, we have little to worry about.
The adoption ruse has been debunked. I can't only think that Turley wrote this opinion before gathering the available facts. Were it not for that, Turley at least notes there was a potential crime here.

Richard Painter, a GOP lawyer weighed in that the meeting was illegal:
Quote:
Richard Painter, an ethics lawyer under former President George W. Bush, has declared that the meeting “borders on treason.” Article III defines treason as “levying War against [the United States], or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.” Trump Jr. went to a meeting on the belief that a lawyer had evidence of criminal collusion by Clinton with a foreign power. That is a rather curious basis for a charge of treason and would make traitors of countless campaign operatives.
(Note, I think the treason charge isn't helpful and comes across as hyperbole.)

Turley dismisses this lawyer's claim:
Quote:
For Vermont Law professor Jennifer Taub, the inkblot looks like a conspiracy to defraud the United States. She believes that prosecutors could charge the participants with seeking to defraud the United States under 18 U.S.C. 371 by going to a meeting to hear evidence that another party may have committed a crime … against the United States. No such evidence was offered, and no further actions are known to have occurred. There has never been a case under 18 U.S.C. 371 that even remotely resembles such a distortive claim.
Turley's main argument seems to be that calling simple information gathering a crime here is a slippery slope. I think he goes out of his way to believe Jr, when Jr is not credible.

Fox News was of course quick to cite Turley as proof there was no crime, but as usual the cart is being put before the horse is out of the barn.



As for your false equivalence, we aren't talking about accusing Trump of a crime yet to be defined which was a big part of the Hillary accusations. There was no evidence of pay to play beyond getting a meeting with Hillary for a donation to the foundation. I'm not going to repeat all the reasons the email scandal was not about a crime.

In this case we have Russians who hacked the DNC and Podesta's emails. They hacked voter data from several states. Those are documented crimes and nothing like that is equivalent in any Clinton accusations.

Proof of the meeting alone being a crime, maybe not by itself. But the evidence in total is really adding up.
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Old 17th July 2017, 03:50 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Not only would Democrat politicians take meetings with alleged Russian agents peddling "dirt," but they too would later lie about it. So who's the hypocrite now??
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Old 17th July 2017, 03:55 PM   #280
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And Turley's more recent op-ed:

Jared Kushner and The Precarious Line Between Inconsistency and Criminality
Quote:
There is no specific crime of “collusion” and the meeting did not constitute prima facie evidence of any collateral crime. That does not take away from the fact that Donald Trump Jr. wanted to collude. He agreed to go to a meeting with the understanding that the Russian government was sending over a lawyer with incriminating information. He should have called the Justice Department. Moreover, only a click-bait chump would have gone to that meeting. Now the Trump Administration will have to maintain the only thing that it has long eluded it: a consistent and coherent narrative.
Seems like a pretty iffy assertion there was no crime here. Mostly he's saying the meeting in and of itself was not a crime. But there is a lot more than just the meeting. This seems to me to make sense in a 'technicality' way:
Quote:
There is one other area of potential concern for Kushner. The ever-changing explanations and disclosures about these meetings have the effect of expanding the scope of the investigation. Defense lawyers try to maintain a single narrative to avoid investigatory drift. The White House has succeeded in maximizing the potential scope of this investigation not only by the firing of James Comey (and the inevitable appointment of a special counsel) but by an array of belatedly disclosed meetings and associations. That expansion allows investigators more justification in exploring prior relationships and transactions from tax filings to loan deals. Kushner has reportedly sought loans from various foreign sources, and those transactions could come under increasing review.

At the moment, Kushner does not appear at any imminent risk of indictment. However, every new spin of the scandal wheel tends to expand the investigations and the risk for potential targets like Kushner.
Technically there is not enough evidence in the public sphere to assert crimes can be proved.

If that's your argument, fine. But that doesn't mean the rest of us are wrong to look at the totality of the circumstantial evidence.
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