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Tags airplane incidents , government shutdown

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Old 13th March 2019, 04:00 PM   #41
cullennz
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This is probably am extremely dumb question and I will look like an idiot, but why would a government shutdown stop Boeing staff working on software anyway?
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Old 13th March 2019, 04:02 PM   #42
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The shutdown also caused my kidney stones
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Old 13th March 2019, 04:05 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
This is probably am extremely dumb question and I will look like an idiot, but why would a government shutdown stop Boeing staff working on software anyway?
Government shutdown means the FAA couldn't certify the software update, which means that airlines couldn't update their planes without losing FAA certification. That, in turn, probably has serious implications for criminal and civil liability, insurance payouts, operating licenses, etc.
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Old 13th March 2019, 04:19 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Government shutdown means the FAA couldn't certify the software update, which means that airlines couldn't update their planes without losing FAA certification. That, in turn, probably has serious implications for criminal and civil liability, insurance payouts, operating licenses, etc.

Aah

The certification

So Boeing were aware of this issue and the delay, yet didn't warn anyone and advise the planes to be grounded
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Old 13th March 2019, 04:24 PM   #45
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We don't know the cause yet.
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Old 13th March 2019, 04:39 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
We don't know the cause yet.
Dude, it's right there in the thread title.
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Old 13th March 2019, 05:04 PM   #47
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Everything can be blamed on Trump. And because Obama made fun of Trump at the correspondents' dinner years ago, inspiring Trump to get revenge, we can blame these problems on Obama.
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Old 13th March 2019, 05:14 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
OK, say the OP is true, shouldn't Boeing have grounded the planes until the issue was addressed?

Not that I'm unwilling to blame Trump for contributing to the problem.
I agree with this. The idea that “we would have fixed it if Trump hadn’t...” sounds like buck passing. If Boeing knew about a problem that could result in a fatal air crash they surely bear the responsibility for not issuing a warning.
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Old 13th March 2019, 06:19 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That makes no sense at all. If the planes weren't fit to fly without the software update, then they should have been grounded long before this crash. If they were fit to fly, then this crash cannot be attributed to the delay in approving the software update.
[Assuming MCAS was the cause]

Not to mention that, even without the software update, the pilots could have disabled the MCAS system by flicking two switches on the centre console. The problem was, pilots weren't told this... they either weren't even told that MCAS was installed on their aircraft, and even when they were, its not fully described in the aircraft Flight Manual and not at all in the FCOM.

https://www.aviation24.be/manufactur...s-manual-fcom/
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Old 13th March 2019, 06:40 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
Everything can be blamed on Trump. And because Obama made fun of Trump at the correspondents' dinner years ago, inspiring Trump to get revenge, we can blame these problems on Obama.
Clearly this can be traced to Zachary Taylor.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:13 AM   #51
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Other pilots who didn't crash complained about the plane:
Quote:
Pilots repeatedly voiced safety concerns about the Boeing 737 Max 8 to federal authorities, with one captain calling the flight manual "inadequate and almost criminally insufficient" several months before Sunday's Ethiopian Air crash that killed 157 people, an investigation by The Dallas Morning News found.
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/...ed-safety-flaw
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:40 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
[Assuming MCAS was the cause]

Not to mention that, even without the software update, the pilots could have disabled the MCAS system by flicking two switches on the centre console. The problem was, pilots weren't told this... they either weren't even told that MCAS was installed on their aircraft, and even when they were, its not fully described in the aircraft Flight Manual and not at all in the FCOM.

https://www.aviation24.be/manufactur...s-manual-fcom/
My flight experience is limited to being a passenger and around 300 hrs Microsoft flightsim... so none at all.

Surely it is incumbent upon the pilots to familiarise themselves with their new aircraft and surely that would include automated flight systems?

In my time in the Royal Corps of Transport we couldn't even use a new waggon on the road until we'd completed familiarisation training. I'd hope the standards would be at least as rigorous and, hopefully, a whole lot more.

I'm wrong in imagining that the first time a pilot might find themselves ready to fly an unfamilair plane, it's full of paying passengers. Aren't I?
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Old 14th March 2019, 01:28 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Surely it is incumbent upon the pilots to familiarise themselves with their new aircraft and surely that would include automated flight systems?
Yeah, but it would be even better if the automated flight systems don't malfunction. They're supposed to make it safer, not less safe.

Why Investigators Fear the Two Boeing 737s Crashed for Similar Reasons

Quote:
The causes of both crashes are still under investigation. But the data cited by regulators points to preliminary indications that the two planes could have been brought down by the same cause, a malfunctioning automated system intended to keep the jet from stalling.
Quote:
Marc Garneau, Canada’s transport minister, said on Wednesday that the satellite-tracking data revealed “vertical variations” in the Ethiopian Airlines flight reminiscent of those seen before the crash of the Lion Air Boeing 737 Max in Indonesia in October.
Why is the autopilot trying to kill people in the first place, I wonder. Sure, the pilot should know how to turn it off, but it would be nice if didn't suddenly cause the plane to dive steeply when it shouldn't.
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Old 14th March 2019, 01:42 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Surely it is incumbent upon the pilots to familiarise themselves with their new aircraft and surely that would include automated flight systems?
All well and good... you do that by familiarizing yourself with, among other manuals, the FCOM (Flight Crew Operations Manual).

What do you do if the FCOM makes no mention of things that the aircraft might do without you knowing about it. How are you supposed to know if no-one tells you, and the FCAM doesn't tell you?

Remember, MCAS autonomously takes control and pitches the nose down if it detects that the aircraft is about to stall in certain flight configurations.

Here is a fairly good explanation of what it does and how it works...

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-s...em-mcas-jt610/
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Old 14th March 2019, 01:51 AM   #55
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Points of similarity:

In both cases the planes were very new, just months after delivery, and although the pilots had thousands of hours of flight time experience on other aircraft, it was a new aircraft to them. About 2 months old in the first case, and 4 months in the second case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_A...t_610#Aircraft
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiop...t_302#Aircraft

Also the satellite tracking data looks similar.
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Old 14th March 2019, 08:58 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Points of similarity:

In both cases the planes were very new, just months after delivery, and although the pilots had thousands of hours of flight time experience on other aircraft, it was a new aircraft to them. About 2 months old in the first case, and 4 months in the second case.
.....
Pilots complained to Boeing that their training on the new plane was inadequate. A Boeing sales pitch was that pilots wouldn't need training on the new plane because it was just an adaptation of the existing 737.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...?noredirect=on
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Old 14th March 2019, 09:01 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Real problem is the 737 Max is just a crappy plane.

There is old engineering saying "If something looks wrong, it probably is". The 737 Max just plain looks wrong.
You missed a beautiful opportunity for a deliberate typo, there.
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Old 14th March 2019, 09:26 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
[Assuming MCAS was the cause]

Not to mention that, even without the software update, the pilots could have disabled the MCAS system by flicking two switches on the centre console. The problem was, pilots weren't told this... they either weren't even told that MCAS was installed on their aircraft, and even when they were, its not fully described in the aircraft Flight Manual and not at all in the FCOM.

https://www.aviation24.be/manufactur...s-manual-fcom/
That's pretty important in regards to LionAir. But I thought that after the LionAir crash, they made rather a big deal out of how to override MCAS, so I would have thought the Ethiopia pilots would have known that.
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Old 14th March 2019, 09:26 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Clearly this can be traced to Zachary Taylor.
As usual, it's all God's fault.
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Old 14th March 2019, 09:38 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
As usual, it's all God's fault.
So you're saying Zachary Taylor is God?
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:01 AM   #61
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Damn, I was kinda hoping to hear that it was a electronic or mechanical shutdown that caused the crash, instead iof some sort of political thing...
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:07 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Pilots complained to Boeing that their training on the new plane was inadequate. A Boeing sales pitch was that pilots wouldn't need training on the new plane because it was just an adaptation of the existing 737.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...?noredirect=on
Are you still blaming the government shutdown for this, then?
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:40 AM   #63
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And from what I have read, the software is not really working all that well anyway.
Serously, in the end the 737 Max is simply a bad design.
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Old 14th March 2019, 11:18 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Pilots complained to Boeing that their training on the new plane was inadequate. A Boeing sales pitch was that pilots wouldn't need training on the new plane because it was just an adaptation of the existing 737.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...?noredirect=on
I'm not buying that.

When a design change involves repositioning of the engines and refinement of the nacelle design to a degree that it causes a big enough change to the CoM to make the aircraft's nose pitch up enough for the designers to feel the need to add specialist flight control software to stop it happening, that is a MAJOR design change, and it ought to be fully explained in the FCOM.
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Old 14th March 2019, 11:28 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Damn, I was kinda hoping to hear that it was a electronic or mechanical shutdown that caused the crash, instead iof some sort of political thing...
I think its both.

I might be pre-empting things here, but assuming it is MCAS that caused the difficulty the pilots had with controlling the aircraft I'm going to go right ahead and call early what I think the conclusion of the investigation will be.

CAUSE
- Pilot error

CONTRIBUTING FACTORS
- Insufficient training by the airline and by Boeing.
- Poor documentation by Boeing
- Delays in certification by the FAA due to the US Government shutdown in 2019
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Old 14th March 2019, 11:35 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's pretty important in regards to LionAir. But I thought that after the LionAir crash, they made rather a big deal out of how to override MCAS, so I would have thought the Ethiopia pilots would have known that.
If they were trained, retrained or briefed about it, but it seems they may not have been. Plenty of Max 8 pilots are claiming they have heard little or nothing from Boeing.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...a61_story.html

Nothing on the MCAS

After the Ethiopian Airlines crash Sunday, Boeing said it would update flight-control software, provide more training, introduce “enhancements” to external sensors that measure the direction of an aircraft and make changes to how MCAS is activated.

But two pilots who attended the meeting with Boeing in November after the Lion Air crash said pilots had suggested that the company take these actions at that time.

“Whatever level of training they decided on [before the Lion Air crash], it resulted in an iPad course that I took for less than an hour,” Tajer, the American Airlines pilot, said. “A lot of pilots here at American did that course.”

But he said the course did not cover the new MCAS system. “There was nothing on the MCAS because even American didn’t know about that. It was just about the display scenes and how the engines are a little different,” he said.

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Old 14th March 2019, 12:31 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
As usual, it's all God's fault.

Nah.

She just moves in mysterious ways.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:40 PM   #68
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Funny, because the people travelling this week are mad at Trump for grounding the planes and not giving them 48 hours notice to change equipment.

Cancelled flights, being rescheduled on other flights, THANKS TRUMP.

Can you imagine if Trump had said "EFFECTIVE IN 48 HOURS, I AM GROUNDING THE PLANES" and one crashed? He would have been skewered.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:48 PM   #69
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From the OP Link
Weird that they throw this in about the shutdown:
Quote:
According to the WSJ, US officials have also blamed part of the delay on this year’s government shutdown — saying it halted work for at least five weeks.

Then they go right into this, that says there is no basis for grounding the aircraft. If there is no basis for grounding the aircraft, then why is it the Shutdown's fault?
Quote:
The FAA insisted Tuesday in a statement that its ongoing review of the 737 MAXs “shows no systemic performance issues” related to the flight-control system and “provides no basis to order grounding the aircraft.”

“Nor have other civil aviation authorities provided data to us that would warrant action,” the FAA said. “In the course of our urgent review of data on the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 crash, if any issues affecting the continued airworthiness of the aircraft are identified, the FAA will take immediate and appropriate action.”
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:52 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Funny, because the people travelling this week are mad at Trump for grounding the planes and not giving them 48 hours notice to change equipment.
Which brings us back to the problem of why is this even Trump's fault? The manufacturer knew there were problems. The airlines knew there were problems. They would have kept flying the planes, in spite of the known problems, yes?

If the airlines weren't anticipating a scenario for grounding the planes, and if they hadn't already drafted a contingency plan for changing equipment in that scenario, then they're idiots.

****, now I need to research what airlines are flying 737 MAX planes, and stay off all their planes until they demonstrate some level of head-outside-of-ass.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:52 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And from what I have read, the software is not really working all that well anyway.
Serously, in the end the 737 Max is simply a bad design.

The fix that is being written right now does everything the original piece of software should have done in the first place. They question is, why did Boeing not get it right the first time? They already use software that is tolerant of AoA failures in the 787 and 777 and did that because it made their product safer.


The grandfather rort that Boeing has been exploiting on the 737 has really caused them a major problem now and killed people.


A very interesting link here https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-s...n-the-737-max/
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:54 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Which brings us back to the problem of why is this even Trump's fault? The manufacturer knew there were problems. The airlines knew there were problems. They would have kept flying the planes, in spite of the known problems, yes?

If the airlines weren't anticipating a scenario for grounding the planes, and if they hadn't already drafted a contingency plan for changing equipment in that scenario, then they're idiots.

****, now I need to research what airlines are flying 737 MAX planes, and stay off all their planes until they demonstrate some level of head-outside-of-ass.
Agree.

**** United, American and Southwest do have some in their fleet. Delta does not.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:59 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Agree.

**** United, American and Southwest do have some in their fleet. Delta does not.
Alaska also does not.
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Old 14th March 2019, 01:03 PM   #74
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This is just a claim to try to justify the existence of the FAA and its excessive regulations and intrusions on business. They are clearly all useless and worthless and properly should be fired like all government regulators. That is the conservative answer to this.
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Old 14th March 2019, 01:05 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
This is just a claim to try to justify the existence of the FAA and its excessive regulations and intrusions on business. They are clearly all useless and worthless and properly should be fired like all government regulators. That is the conservative answer to this.
Hallucination duly noted.

Boeing however, if they know of a fix, should not be waiting for the FAA to approve the fix, before grounding the planes.

They should ground the planes, pending the FAA approval.
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Old 14th March 2019, 01:37 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Agree.

**** United, American and Southwest do have some in their fleet. Delta does not.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Alaska also does not.
Of American based airlines:

Alaska Air has 32 on order, but is not currently flying any.
American Airlines has 100 on order, has 22 in its fleet.
Ryan Air has 135 on order, but is not currently flying any.
Southwest has 280 on order, has 31 in its fleet.
United has 136 on order, has 14 in its fleet.
2 have been delivered to individuals/companies for use as personal or corporate jets. I assume they would be affected by the grounding.

I cannot find any carrier world wide that is flying only the 737 Max (some small budget carriers only fly one make/model of plane to keep costs down.)
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Old 14th March 2019, 01:43 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Nah.

She just moves in mysterious ways.
If I was a woman I would not be happy with people wanting gawd to be thought of as female. Have you read the thing? Definitely a man-child with serious hangups.

My truck better start today or I'll be very mad, Trumpdammit.
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Old 14th March 2019, 02:26 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Of American based airlines:

Alaska Air has 32 on order, but is not currently flying any.
American Airlines has 100 on order, has 22 in its fleet.
Ryan Air has 135 on order, but is not currently flying any.
Southwest has 280 on order, has 31 in its fleet.
United has 136 on order, has 14 in its fleet.
2 have been delivered to individuals/companies for use as personal or corporate jets. I assume they would be affected by the grounding.

I cannot find any carrier world wide that is flying only the 737 Max (some small budget carriers only fly one make/model of plane to keep costs down.)
That's fine for my purposes.

My concern right now is not so much staying off of 737-MAX flights (though that's also a concern for me). My concern right now is staying the **** away from airlines that continued to operate the 737-MAX between the time they knew it had problems and the time the planes got grounded because of the problems they already knew it had.

To me, that speaks to an institutional laziness that almost certainly extends beyond their fleet of MAXs. If I can't trust Southwest to do the right thing with a 737-MAX, how can I trust them to be doing the right thing with a 737-800?

On the other hand, if you were to find an airline that had MAXs in service, and voluntarily grounded them when they understood the problem, I'd be happy to give them my business.

Meanwhile, there's airlines like Alaska, that don't have any MAXs in their fleet anyway, and haven't yet gotten a track record of bad behavior with their other planes. So they can keep my business for the time being. The 737-700/800/900 family is reportedly a more reliable and proven plane, so I'm not yet ready to give up on Boeing entirely. Plus it would be almost impossible to fly anywhere in the western hemisphere if I did that.

Which might not be a bad idea.
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Old 14th March 2019, 02:40 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
If I was a woman I would not be happy with people wanting gawd to be thought of as female. Have you read the thing? Definitely a man-child with serious hangups.

<snip>

Presumably you are a man. How happy are you with this Supreme Deity normally being depicted as male?
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Old 14th March 2019, 02:42 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's fine for my purposes.

My concern right now is not so much staying off of 737-MAX flights (though that's also a concern for me). My concern right now is staying the **** away from airlines that continued to operate the 737-MAX between the time they knew it had problems and the time the planes got grounded because of the problems they already knew it had.

To me, that speaks to an institutional laziness that almost certainly extends beyond their fleet of MAXs. If I can't trust Southwest to do the right thing with a 737-MAX, how can I trust them to be doing the right thing with a 737-800?

<snip>

You misspelled "greediness".
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