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Old 14th March 2019, 03:08 AM   #1
dann
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Healthy Nations Ranking

Healthy Nations Rankings (Bloomberg, Feb. 24, 2019)

The USA sinks to 35th, five places below Cuba and much lower than all the so-called socialist countries of Europe, but probably still above Venezuela, I guess. So what does Trump plan to do about it?

Quote:
Over the next 10 years, Trump’s 2020 budget proposal aims to spend $1.5 trillion less on Medicaid — instead allocating $1.2 trillion in a block-grant program to states — $25 billion less on Social Security, and $845 billion less on Medicare (some of that is reclassified to a different department).
Trump said he wouldn’t cut Medicaid, Social Security, and Medicare. His 2020 budget cuts all 3. (Vox, Mar. 12, 2019)
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Old 14th March 2019, 06:29 AM   #2
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Four questions:
1)Says who?
2)Metrics?
3) Total up the population of those 34 countries ahead of USA, and tell me where we are in percentile. 92% percentile perhaps?

Your discussion/quote deals with government social programs. So:
4) How much is the national debt per capita in those 34 countries? I suspect they have mortgaged their futures to get a better dole for the current generation.
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Old 14th March 2019, 06:33 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So what does Trump plan to do about it?
Why is this thread posted outside of the USA Politics forum?
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Old 14th March 2019, 06:47 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Your discussion/quote deals with government social programs. So:
4) How much is the national debt per capita in those 34 countries? I suspect they have mortgaged their futures to get a better dole for the current generation.
Hmmm, if only there were some way to check that out.
Goodness ... look who's third! (click the image to enlarge)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg debt per capita.JPG (59.6 KB, 137 views)
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Old 14th March 2019, 07:50 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
3) Total up the population of those 34 countries ahead of USA, and tell me where we are in percentile. 92% percentile perhaps?
Just because I hate this particular misunderstanding of statistics that only seem to pop up when US exceptionalism is questioned, I totalled it up.

US population is 44,8% of that of the other 34 countries.

Next excuse.
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Old 14th March 2019, 09:12 AM   #6
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Quote:
Healthy Nations Rankings (Bloomberg, Feb. 24, 2019)

The USA sinks to 35th, five places below Cuba and much lower than all the so-called socialist countries of Europe, but probably still above Venezuela, I guess. So what does Trump plan to do about it?
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Four questions:
1)Says who?
2)Metrics?
3) Total up the population of those 34 countries ahead of USA, and tell me where we are in percentile. 92% percentile perhaps?
Not sure of the exact calculations that they used, but from the article it looks like their ranking system includes life expectancy (which is impacted by non-medical factors such as suicides, drug overdoses, etc.)

Now, I do think the U.S. medical system needs to change. (And there are other reports that do show the U.S. trails other nations when it comes to health care.) I just think that this particular report may include too many non-health care related factors to really say anything about medical care.

Quote:
Your discussion/quote deals with government social programs. So:
4) How much is the national debt per capita in those 34 countries? I suspect they have mortgaged their futures to get a better dole for the current generation.
As others have pointed out, the U.S. isn't really that much better shape when it comes to per-capita debt.

The thing is, many of the European countries do spend a lot on social programs, but they also collect a lot in taxes. So, they're (sort of) paying for things as they go. With the republican tax cuts, the U.S. government is collecting far less revenue, but they're still spending huge amounts (on social programs, on the military).

From: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/26/3-ch...t-problem.html
...the IMF warned that now is the time for investors and policymakers to pay attention to growing debt, singling out the United States. The Fund said the revised tax code and spending agreements will mean the U.S. is the only advanced economy where the debt-to-GDP ratio will increase over the next five years.
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Old 14th March 2019, 09:37 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Healthy Nations Rankings (Bloomberg, Feb. 24, 2019)

The USA sinks to 35th, five places below Cuba and much lower than all the so-called socialist countries of Europe, but probably still above Venezuela, I guess. So what does Trump plan to do about it?
We told you guys immigration was hurting this country. Make America Great Again. We need to be more like Europe stop taking dirt worlders.
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Old 14th March 2019, 09:59 AM   #8
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Is it Poe's Law when a Cain post is indistinguishable from a post that another particular poster would make seriously?
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:05 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Four questions:
1)Says who?
2)Metrics?
3) Total up the population of those 34 countries ahead of USA, and tell me where we are in percentile. 92% percentile perhaps?

Your discussion/quote deals with government social programs. So:
4) How much is the national debt per capita in those 34 countries? I suspect they have mortgaged their futures to get a better dole for the current generation.

Doesn't the USA spend a greater percentage of it's GDP on public healthcare than the UK?

It's in someone's signature, I'm sure.
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:07 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Healthy Nations Rankings (Bloomberg, Feb. 24, 2019)

The USA sinks to 35th, five places below Cuba and much lower than all the so-called socialist countries of Europe, but probably still above Venezuela, I guess. So what does Trump plan to do about it?
I'm not sure why you think Cuba's ranking is reliable, since all their data comes from the government and their government isn't exactly transparent or trustworthy. And the metric seems kind of funny, since it includes a "health risk penalty" separately but one would expect the effect of those health risks to already be incorporated into statistics like life expectancy which are already counted in the base "health score".

But what's the easiest way to boost our ranking? Halt immigration. So if this metric is really a priority, well, Trump is indeed your man.
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:09 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Is it Poe's Law when a Cain post is indistinguishable from a post that another particular poster would make seriously?
As a factual matter, he's actually correct. Immigration is lowering our score on this metric. You're not obliged to care about this metric, and even if you do you can still conclude that benefits of immigration are worth a lower score. But immigration still lowers that score, there's really no getting around that.
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:17 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I suspect they have mortgaged their futures to get a better dole for the current generation.
This impliies a certain confusion on how debt works. Bear in mind that neither time travel nor magic are real.
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:20 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
As a factual matter, he's actually correct. Immigration is lowering our score on this metric. You're not obliged to care about this metric, and even if you do you can still conclude that benefits of immigration are worth a lower score. But immigration still lowers that score, there's really no getting around that.

I was thinking more about a certain poster who has frequently expressed the opinion that most of the world's problems come from people of different races trying to live together, and everyone should live in countries made up entirely of their own race.
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:35 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But what's the easiest way to boost our ranking? Halt immigration. So if this metric is really a priority, well, Trump is indeed your man.
I'm not seeing that. Where do you find it?
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:48 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But what's the easiest way to boost our ranking? Halt immigration. So if this metric is really a priority, well, Trump is indeed your man.
What evidence do you have that immigrants are less healthy or have a shorter life expectancy than native born Americans in the same social class? (I'm not saying its not impossible, we just need to see some evidence.)

If anything, I would expect the opposite to be true: the crime rate in the immigrant community tends to be less than for other Americans (less chance of crime death), and vaccination rates in many latin American countries are higher than the rates in the U.S. So you would expect immigrants to have longer life spans.

https://theweek.com/articles/537527/...asles-outbreak
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Old 14th March 2019, 11:02 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Doesn't the USA spend a greater percentage of it's GDP on public healthcare than the UK?

It's in someone's signature, I'm sure.
I believe so, but it involves relatively heavy personal spending on health insurance while leaving the poor badly placed. And if the insurance $$$ don't lead to overall better outcomes than NHS systems then it's money inefficiently spent.
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Old 14th March 2019, 01:19 PM   #17
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Keep trying guys, I'm sure you can get us down to last place in some statistic somewhere in the world. Please keep it up, maybe less people will come here. USA sucks, go to England!
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Old 14th March 2019, 01:32 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Healthy Nations Rankings (Bloomberg, Feb. 24, 2019)

The USA sinks to 35th, five places below Cuba and much lower than all the so-called socialist countries of Europe, but probably still above Venezuela, I guess. So what does Trump plan to do about it?
Who has the time to really research the ranking but I find a ranking that puts Cuba ahead of the US in health suspect.

Maybe they can't afford to get as obese or use as many drugs as US citizens.
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Old 14th March 2019, 01:39 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Four questions:
1)Says who?
2)Metrics?
3) Total up the population of those 34 countries ahead of USA, and tell me where we are in percentile. 92% percentile perhaps?

Your discussion/quote deals with government social programs. So:
4) How much is the national debt per capita in those 34 countries? I suspect they have mortgaged their futures to get a better dole for the current generation.
1 - Bloomberg Global Health index. As you can see from the link.
2 -This is also available at the link.


3 - 34 countries ahead of USA account for around 750 million people, vs. the USA at 330 million people.

So yes, of total world population, USA health rating would fall between 88 and 91 percentile.


ETA - #4 - that dog don't hunt.


EEETTTAAA - "5 places behind Cuba" my ass. Cuba's health stats don't mean anything, unless you're Michael Moore.

Last edited by carlitos; 14th March 2019 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 14th March 2019, 01:46 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Who has the time to really research the ranking but I find a ranking that puts Cuba ahead of the US in health suspect.

Maybe they can't afford to get as obese or use as many drugs as US citizens.
Why? Sounds like pure prejudice to me. They have a NHS that's centrally funded, and funded well. You might not like the Cuban regime but it's their health under discussion.

" In 2016, the World Health Organisation reported the average life expectancy at birth for Cubans as being 77 years for males and 81 for females, which is higher than that of the United States."

Health care in Cuba
- it's not complicated to see why they're a relatively healthy and long-lived people.
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Old 14th March 2019, 01:47 PM   #21
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Can we trust Cuba's Health stats?
No.
https://www.quora.com/Can-we-believe...alth-statistic
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Old 14th March 2019, 01:51 PM   #22
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And when you read why the US is down:

Quote:
Life expectancy in the U.S. has been trending lower due to deaths from drug overdoses and suicides.
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Old 14th March 2019, 02:00 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Can we trust Cuba's Health stats?
No.
https://www.quora.com/Can-we-believe...alth-statistic
As you wish, but the USA is well below 'reliable' countries, such as the European ones. The reasons are logical and understandable. Expensive access for the poor, rampant obesity, substance abuse, others ...
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Old 14th March 2019, 02:13 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
As you wish, but the USA is well below 'reliable' countries, such as the European ones. The reasons are logical and understandable. Expensive access for the poor, rampant obesity, substance abuse, others ...
Agreed and our[the US] life expectancy has actually dropped for the third year in a row, virtually unheard of in a developed nation, due to suicides and drug overdoses.

ETA: ninjaed by Brainster

Last edited by portlandatheist; 14th March 2019 at 03:19 PM. Reason: ETA
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Old 14th March 2019, 02:14 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
And when you read why the US is down:

Life expectancy in the U.S. has been trending lower due to deaths from drug overdoses and suicides.
It is true that THIS particular study may be flawed in that it considers too many non-health care related factors in its evaluation.

But, its not the only health care rankings that are available. For example, the Commonwealth Fund also provides rankings (although of a smaller number of countries) that concentrate health care itself.

In the Commonwealth Fund's 2017 version of the study, the U.S. ranked 11 out of 11 countries evaluated.

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/cha...mance-rankings
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Old 14th March 2019, 05:04 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
As a factual matter, he's actually correct. Immigration is lowering our score on this metric. You're not obliged to care about this metric, and even if you do you can still conclude that benefits of immigration are worth a lower score. But immigration still lowers that score, there's really no getting around that.
How?
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Old 14th March 2019, 05:05 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Who has the time to really research the ranking but I find a ranking that puts Cuba ahead of the US in health suspect.



Maybe they can't afford to get as obese or use as many drugs as US citizens.
Cuba has a lot of problems but it still has a good health system. And yes, not as obese.
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Old 14th March 2019, 05:43 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Four questions:
1)Says who?
2)Metrics?
3) Total up the population of those 34 countries ahead of USA, and tell me where we are in percentile. 92% percentile perhaps?

Your discussion/quote deals with government social programs. So:
4) How much is the national debt per capita in those 34 countries? I suspect they have mortgaged their futures to get a better dole for the current generation.
I suspect it's called 'caring'.

I'm type 1 diabetic,
when I see american type 1 diabetics having to worry about the costs of insulin vials etc, which they literally need to stay alive, then I shed a tear.

I pay nothing for mine.

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Old 14th March 2019, 06:00 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Cuba has a lot of problems but it still has a good health system. And yes, not as obese.
Nor as suicidal, apparently.
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Old 14th March 2019, 07:58 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Four questions:
1)Says who?
2)Metrics?
3) Total up the population of those 34 countries ahead of USA, and tell me where we are in percentile. 92% percentile perhaps?

Your discussion/quote deals with government social programs. So:
4) How much is the national debt per capita in those 34 countries? I suspect they have mortgaged their futures to get a better dole for the current generation.
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
And when you read why the US is down:
Japan is 4th in the list and it has a huge, and aging, population, as well as a high suicide rate.
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Old 14th March 2019, 08:00 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Healthy Nations Rankings (Bloomberg, Feb. 24, 2019)

The USA sinks to 35th, five places below Cuba and much lower than all the so-called socialist countries of Europe, but probably still above Venezuela, I guess. So what does Trump plan to do about it?
To be fair, Denmark is not doing that well either.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:50 PM   #32
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When I look at home movies posted on YouTube, shot in places like NY, or Mouse Land, back in the 70s, you hardly see any obese folk. You'd almost think there was a war on, with rationing. Nowadays, by comparison, it's a veritable pork fest of waddling blobs, suggesting the approach of the kind of senescent society portrayed in Wall-E.
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:54 PM   #33
Lambchops
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Hey, let's all just agree that the US is the bestest country ever, before, now and always.

The shinng beacon on the hill. Land of the "free". Home of the "brave".
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Old 15th March 2019, 01:11 AM   #34
3point14
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Keep trying guys, I'm sure you can get us down to last place in some statistic somewhere in the world. Please keep it up, maybe less people will come here. USA sucks, go to England!
I@m not sure what your point is?

That the stats are inaccurate?

Or you're happy with the richest nation on the world performing as it is?

Or that rich people are getting healthcare and that's what matters?

Or something I'm missing?
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Old 15th March 2019, 02:53 AM   #35
jimbob
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Four questions:
1)Says who?
2)Metrics?
3) Total up the population of those 34 countries ahead of USA, and tell me where we are in percentile. 92% percentile perhaps?

Your discussion/quote deals with government social programs. So:
4) How much is the national debt per capita in those 34 countries? I suspect they have mortgaged their futures to get a better dole for the current generation.
look at my signature.

US spends more of its GDP on *public* healthcare than the UK
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OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 15th March 2019, 03:17 AM   #36
bluesjnr
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Keep trying guys, I'm sure you can get us down to last place in some statistic somewhere in the world. Please keep it up, maybe less people will come here. USA sucks, go to England!
Can you show me where England ranks in the chart?
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Old 15th March 2019, 03:19 AM   #37
bluesjnr
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Hey, let's all just agree that the US is the bestest country ever, before, now and always.

The shinng beacon on the hill. Land of the "free". Home of the "brave".
..... and the morbidly obese.
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:14 AM   #38
dann
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
To be fair, Denmark is not doing that well either.

No, Denmark is by far the worst Scandinavian country, health-wise - but still ten places better than the USA.

ETA: The amount of tobacco and alcohol consumed in Denmark is much larger than in the other Scandinavian countries: Danskerne er dem i Norden der ryger og drikker mest (dr.dk, Feb. 2, 2017)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 15th March 2019 at 06:39 AM.
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:33 AM   #39
dann
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Can we trust Cuba's Health stats?
No.
https://www.quora.com/Can-we-believe...alth-statistic

Do you read your own links?
No, apparently not! You link to an obviously partisan website, https://www.quora.com/profile/Iniciativa-Cubaverdad, and don't even question some of the more obvious lies. For instance, it's absurd to accuse Cuba of having "a meat-heavy diet." (Some Cubans wish it were true! Cubans actually tend to have a rice-and-beans-heavy diet!) And what's the point of mentioning "unfiltered cigarettes"?! The writer seems to think that filtered cigarettes are less harmful to your health than unfiltered ones. And Cuban doctors (and Cuban TV) always warn against the risks of smoking tobacco and drinking (too much) alcohol like they do in the rest of the world. They just don't have the kind of advertising and lobbyism that the tobacco industry has in most other countries.

Quote:
Hirschfeld said she's "a little skeptical" about the longevity data too, since Cuba has so many risk factors that cause early death in other countries, from unfiltered cigarettes to contaminated water to a meat-heavy diet.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:47 AM   #40
Dabop
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Can you show me where England ranks in the chart?
um 19th???

UK
(The United Kingdom, made up of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland)
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