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Tags border walls , donald trump , immigration issues , Trump controversies

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Old 12th March 2019, 01:51 PM   #481
mgidm86
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
How is everyone doing during this time of National Emergency? I'm fine. Still hunkered down in the basement with plenty of food, water and bullets stocked. No brown horde is going to rape, murder or spread smallpox in my house!

Ask these people.

Nope, no problem at all.

What exactly do you people want?

- let anyone who wishes walk in and live here unimpeded
- drop them off back at the border
- detain them until we sort them out

What do you want to do with the border? Please, some caring liberal respond because all I hear is bad bad bad, wrong wrong wrong, racist, brown people bla bla!

Quit whining and being snarky and offer some constructive advice for once. Anyone! Tell us, what would be the perfect setup for our border? Or like, ya know, you can just do the usual "look I said something cute woohoo! Fist bump!"

I know I'm wasting my time here, There will be no straight answer.
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Old 12th March 2019, 02:28 PM   #482
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A straight answer like those provided hundreds of times?

Well, not an answer to the remarkably silly setup you offered, so...
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Old 12th March 2019, 03:03 PM   #483
WilliamSeger
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Ask these people.

Nope, no problem at all.

What exactly do you people want?

- let anyone who wishes walk in and live here unimpeded
- drop them off back at the border
- detain them until we sort them out

What do you want to do with the border? Please, some caring liberal respond because all I hear is bad bad bad, wrong wrong wrong, racist, brown people bla bla!

Quit whining and being snarky and offer some constructive advice for once. Anyone! Tell us, what would be the perfect setup for our border? Or like, ya know, you can just do the usual "look I said something cute woohoo! Fist bump!"

I know I'm wasting my time here, There will be no straight answer.
But the specific issue here is not really our immigration policy: it's the idiocy of the wall.

By the existing laws, we should catch the ones who really enter illegally and deport them, but we should allow the ones who have legitimate asylum claims and clean criminal records. Trump wants to do away with asylum, and liberals will fight him tooth-and-nail over that. The biggest problem with the existing law is that temporary workers don't qualify for asylum but too few qualify for legal entry, so they're either treated as criminals or largely ignored as long as they take whatever work, wages, and working conditions they can find. So, one "constructive criticism" would be that we need to make it easier to get temporary work permits and follow through with regulations and enforcement to make sure they are treated fairly.
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Old 12th March 2019, 03:41 PM   #484
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I know I'm wasting my time here, There will be no straight answer.
I rather think your lack of any answer, straight or not, to questions about your own claims is wasting everyone's time. Not just yours. So, in the spirit of no longer wasting everyone's time, how about you state whether there is a crisis, what exactly the crisis is, and what makes it a crisis. Then, after you answer questions, perhaps someone else will answer some of yours. How's that sound?
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Old 12th March 2019, 04:22 PM   #485
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Tell us, what would be the perfect setup for our border?
There is no perfect setup, there is only trying to react to a difficult, multifaceted situation.


Quote:
What exactly do you people want?

- let anyone who wishes walk in and live here unimpeded
- drop them off back at the border
- detain them until we sort them out
The way to improve the situation probably isn't prone to be boiled down to a snappy one sentence soundbite. But I can give you some points that would be a part of it.

The real long term border strategy starts with tackling the motivations for illegal immigration. It targets predatory employers who hire people illegally. But there also needs to be an acknowledgement that many of these agricultural jobs aren't being stolen from Americans. There should be a strong guest worker program so that seasonal workers can come, work in non-exploitative conditions, pay taxes and return to central America.

We need to acknowledge our role in the instability that's driving migration. Mexican narcos are funded by American drug users. We've toppled governments in central America, cregion creating power vacuums which bring us to today's situation. But even if we weren't responsible it would still be prudent policy to build up our southern neighbors. Nobody flees a country where they have stability and opportunity.

Asylum seekers should be processed quickly and efficiently. Right now they're being lied to by border agents and having guns pointed at them by soldiers torn away from their families on Thanksgiving at great taxpayer expense. We need more judges, more caseworkers, and a system designed down to the details to be efficient rather than punitive which is the case with our current system. I've heard some very positive things about ankle bracelet programs which don't rely on child separation or holding applicants in overcrowded facilities. I'm not committing to that specific alternative. The question of how we keep asylum seekers specifically from slipping through the cracks without being processed is a complex one all by itself, and we're not going to solve it in a forum post. But as we decrease the demand for illegal border crossing, better solutions become plausible. To the extent that we need to detain people, and there will always be some level, I think a baseline expectation is that kids don't get raped or lost. We manage to hang on to kids in a number of other institutions with a minimal amount of that sort of thing, so I trust we can do it when the kids speak spanish.

Yes, probably some expanded barriers would be a part of any prudent solution. Not "a wall" that involves massive emminent domain seizures and threats to wildlife. Butsome strategic expansion and maintenance of current barriers. The way it is discussed with Mexico, as aesthetic as it might seem, is important. **** you Mexico, we need a huge wall and you'll pay for it does more damage to our relationship with our southern neighbor than a wall can do good. We need to be cooperating with Mexico on the very real threats of drugs and violence around the border. We also need our strong southern trading partner, but that's a whole other story. The messaging needs to be "Hey, lets work together to counter our shared problems with thoughtful barriers" You may dismiss that as shallow optics, but it's called diplomacy.

We will never fully eliminate illegal immigration, just like we will never fully eliminate almost any real large issue that politics deals with. We haven't fully eliminated murder or rape. But neither do we need to imagine a single magic pill which perfectly solves our murder "emergency".

[/quote]
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Old 12th March 2019, 04:45 PM   #486
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Ask these people.

Nope, no problem at all.

What exactly do you people want?

- let anyone who wishes walk in and live here unimpeded
- drop them off back at the border
- detain them until we sort them out

What do you want to do with the border? Please, some caring liberal respond because all I hear is bad bad bad, wrong wrong wrong, racist, brown people bla bla!

Quit whining and being snarky and offer some constructive advice for once. Anyone! Tell us, what would be the perfect setup for our border? Or like, ya know, you can just do the usual "look I said something cute woohoo! Fist bump!"

I know I'm wasting my time here, There will be no straight answer.
Straw-manning and poisoning the well much?
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Old 12th March 2019, 05:51 PM   #487
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There is no hearing on the schedule for H.J. Res. 46 in the Senate Armed Services Committee.

There is no mention of H.J. Res. 46 in the Senate Calendar of Business.

ETA: If the folks on The Hill aren't even going to grandstand, let alone pass laws and stuff, they should just shut the lights off in their D.C. offices and go do some casework in their districts.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 12th March 2019 at 05:55 PM.
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Old 13th March 2019, 02:28 AM   #488
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Quit whining and being snarky and offer some constructive advice for once.
Well, quite.
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Old 13th March 2019, 05:35 AM   #489
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So... About this "emergency".


.........how's it going? Any news? Seems awful quiet for such a "big" thing.
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Old 13th March 2019, 07:21 AM   #490
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
So... About this "emergency".


.........how's it going? Any news? Seems awful quiet for such a "big" thing.
Thanks much because I was thinking about the same thing.

So far during this "National Emergency" ...

There has not been any rationing of gasoline, food, and other such consumer products to support the National Emergency.
There have not been any requests that the public buy "War Bonds" or other such things to support the National Emergency.
There have not been any requests that the public plant "Victory Gardens" or other such things to support the National Emergency.
There have not been any "Blood Drives" in order to support the National Emergency.

And so on.

In short, this has to be most quiet and sedate National Emergency of all time. Either that, or there is no National Emergency to begin with.
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Old 13th March 2019, 07:40 AM   #491
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Thanks much because I was thinking about the same thing.

So far during this "National Emergency" ...

There has not been any rationing of gasoline, food, and other such consumer products to support the National Emergency.
There have not been any requests that the public buy "War Bonds" or other such things to support the National Emergency.
There have not been any requests that the public plant "Victory Gardens" or other such things to support the National Emergency.
There have not been any "Blood Drives" in order to support the National Emergency.

And so on.

In short, this has to be most quiet and sedate National Emergency of all time. Either that, or there is no National Emergency to begin with.
I believe many National Emergencies have involved the imposition of sanctions on foreign nations or people. They don't involve any of the things you mention either.

You can see a list of declarations here. Obama issued twelve, none of which were emergencies of the scale you mention.

None of this should be taken to mean I support Trump's move (I don't) nor that I think Obama overstepped the intention of the law (no opinion, since I really don't recall the context of these emergencies for one thing). I just don't think your argument works all that well.
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Old 13th March 2019, 09:20 AM   #492
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I believe many National Emergencies have involved the imposition of sanctions on foreign nations or people. They don't involve any of the things you mention either.

You can see a list of declarations here. Obama issued twelve, none of which were emergencies of the scale you mention.

None of this should be taken to mean I support Trump's move (I don't) nor that I think Obama overstepped the intention of the law (no opinion, since I really don't recall the context of these emergencies for one thing). I just don't think your argument works all that well.
I wonder when was the last national emergency based on events (allegedly) occurring on US soil?
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Old 13th March 2019, 10:14 AM   #493
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Trump Tweets

Republican Senators are overthinking tomorrow’s vote on National Emergency. It is very simply Border Security/No Crime - Should not be thought of any other way. We have a MAJOR NATIONAL EMERGENCY at our Border and the People of our Country know it very well!

Democrats will have a unanimous vote on a 20% issue in opposing Republican Senators tomorrow. The Dems are for Open Borders and Crime!
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Old 13th March 2019, 01:30 PM   #494
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No one will accuse Trump of overthinking anything. Thinking is something he is incapable of.
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Old 13th March 2019, 02:00 PM   #495
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I wonder when was the last national emergency based on events (allegedly) occurring on US soil?

First Obama declaration for flu outbreak. There's a not so obvious link in the text you quoted. Some later ones may qualify too depending on how you define "US Soil" in the cyberspace era.
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Old 13th March 2019, 02:38 PM   #496
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I wonder when was the last national emergency based on events (allegedly) occurring on US soil?
There was a medical one. Bird Flu.

However I don't believe there has never been an emergency declared simply because Congress refused to pass funds, which is one power that is within their remit.

In our shared history, the last head of state that tried such tricks ended up about a foot shorter. The founding fathers were well aware of that.
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Old 13th March 2019, 11:44 PM   #497
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My question has always been:

"When did the emergency start?".

I want a date. If you can't answer that, it's not an emergency.
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Old 14th March 2019, 04:08 AM   #498
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Trump Tweets

A big National Emergency vote today by The United States Senate on Border Security & the Wall (which is already under major construction). I am prepared to veto, if necessary. The Southern Border is a National Security and Humanitarian Nightmare, but it can be easily fixed!
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Old 14th March 2019, 06:08 AM   #499
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He keeps saying that the wall is already under major construction. If that's the case, then why does he need to declare an emergency to get the funding?
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Old 14th March 2019, 06:12 AM   #500
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
He keeps saying that the wall is already under major construction. If that's the case, then why does he need to declare an emergency to get the funding?
1) the wall is under major construction
2) Lots and lots and lots of people are getting arrested at the border

Clearly, there is an emergency....

BTW, notice that nowadays, he is decrying a "humanitarian crisis" at the border. Yeah, there is....one he started.

The way to solve it is to do things like, stop separating kids from their parents.
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Old 14th March 2019, 06:15 AM   #501
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
My question has always been:

"When did the emergency start?".

I want a date. If you can't answer that, it's not an emergency.
So, bird flu wasn't an emergency because there was no clear start date?
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Old 14th March 2019, 06:15 AM   #502
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
He keeps saying that the wall is already under major construction. If that's the case, then why does he need to declare an emergency to get the funding?
This is one of the things that I wish that I knew as well.

And to make things ever stranger, on the very day he officially declared this National Emergency, he also stated 'that it was not necessary to declare a National Emergency'. And shortly thereafter, he goes down to Florida to play golf for a couple of days.

So if there really is a National Emergency of some sort, then Trump is not too terribly worried about it and he is not working very hard to correct it.
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Old 14th March 2019, 06:21 AM   #503
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
1) the wall is under major construction
2) Lots and lots and lots of people are getting arrested at the border

Clearly, there is an emergency....

BTW, notice that nowadays, he is decrying a "humanitarian crisis" at the border. Yeah, there is....one he started.

The way to solve it is to do things like, stop separating kids from their parents.
That's not the only humanitarian crisis at the border. If we allowed families to stay together, not in detention, when they apply for asylum, there would still be issues of large numbers of impoverished families in our border states (I assume that they'd need to stay in the region they crossed because that's where they need to show for court).

Again, I'm not at all in favor of this declaration, but the large numbers of families applying for asylum now is stressing the system. The numbers of illegal crossings are not as high as previously (not nearly so, if I'm not mistaken) but the fact that it's a lot of families and they're applying for asylum is a different situation and I think is legitimately a humanitarian crisis.

Not everything that Trump refers to is totally divorced from the truth nor is quite everything his fault. His solution sucks and his declaration of an emergency just because he couldn't get his signature issue going through Congressional action is ******** nonetheless.
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Old 14th March 2019, 08:03 AM   #504
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The Democrats are “Border Deniers.” They refuse to see or acknowledge the Death, Crime, Drugs and Human Trafficking at our Southern Border!

Prominent legal scholars agree that our actions to address the National Emergency at the Southern Border and to protect the American people are both CONSTITUTIONAL and EXPRESSLY authorized by Congress....

....If, at a later date, Congress wants to update the law, I will support those efforts, but today’s issue is BORDER SECURITY and Crime!!! Don’t vote with Pelosi!

A vote for today’s resolution by Republican Senators is a vote for Nancy Pelosi, Crime, and the Open Border Democrats!
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Old 14th March 2019, 08:11 AM   #505
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

The Democrats are “Border Deniers.” They refuse to see or acknowledge the Death, Crime, Drugs and Human Trafficking at our Southern Border!
I suppose this one'll be rated "pants on fire".
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:19 AM   #506
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

The Democrats are “Border Deniers.” They refuse to see or acknowledge the Death, Crime, Drugs and Human Trafficking at our Southern Border!

Prominent legal scholars agree that our actions to address the National Emergency at the Southern Border and to protect the American people are both CONSTITUTIONAL and EXPRESSLY authorized by Congress....

....If, at a later date, Congress wants to update the law, I will support those efforts, but today’s issue is BORDER SECURITY and Crime!!! Don’t vote with Pelosi!

A vote for today’s resolution by Republican Senators is a vote for Nancy Pelosi, Crime, and the Open Border Democrats!
One last desperate throw of the dice, eh? Which "prominent legal scholars" would those be? Because the only "prominent legal scholars" Trump knows are currently being sentenced to extended periods in jail or quitting their jobs with him.
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:35 AM   #507
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
So, bird flu wasn't an emergency because there was no clear start date?
Bird flu - never a national emergency. Swine flu was in 2009. And there were reasons for the actions taken that were not subjective.
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:36 AM   #508
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Here's the deal.
I think the wall is a stupid idea, but that is not the real issue here. It's Trump trying to get around the Constitution and void the Congress's power of the purse..which is the main weapon the Congress has to control the Executive. I don't care it what he wants to spend money on is the greatest idea on Earth,he should not do it without Congress approving it.
And if a Democratic president tried the same thing, I would be just as opposed. In face, I did not like it when Obama tried to get around Congress,even though I agreed with what he wanted to do. And Obama never went as far as Trump has.
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Old 14th March 2019, 11:20 AM   #509
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Prominent legal scholars agree that our actions to address the National Emergency at the Southern Border and to protect the American people are both CONSTITUTIONAL and EXPRESSLY authorized by Congress....

....If, at a later date, Congress wants to update the law, I will support those efforts, but today’s issue is BORDER SECURITY and Crime!!! Don’t vote with Pelosi!
In other words "I want to do this, but I don't want the next Democratic president to be able to so".
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Old 14th March 2019, 11:37 AM   #510
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
Bird flu - never a national emergency. Swine flu was in 2009. And there were reasons for the actions taken that were not subjective.
Okay, swine flu. My mistake, but the point stands. You originally said, "'When did the emergency start?' I want a date. If you can't answer that, it's not an emergency."

So, if you can't give a date that the swine flu emergency started, it was not an emergency by your own standards.

There are plenty of reasons to doubt that this is a National Emergency, but your own standard isn't convincing.

Last edited by phiwum; 14th March 2019 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 14th March 2019, 01:16 PM   #511
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Senate deals blow to Trump in vote to terminate border emergency
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...rgency-1221317

Quote:
The Senate delivered a stunning bipartisan rebuke to Donald Trump on Thursday when 12 Republicans joined Democrats in voting to overturn the president's national emergency declaration.
That's 12 Republican Senators who are for Open Borders and Crime. Remarkable.
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Old 14th March 2019, 03:26 PM   #512
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Not much of a blow if he can veto it.
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Old 14th March 2019, 04:49 PM   #513
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Not much of a blow if he can veto it.
It doesn't look good, though, and Trump will carry a grudge against this Dirty Dozen.
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Old 14th March 2019, 04:57 PM   #514
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Senate deals blow to Trump in vote to terminate border emergency
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...rgency-1221317


That's 12 Republican Senators who are for Open Borders and Crime. Remarkable.
Only 5 more and it would have been veto proof.
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Old 14th March 2019, 05:06 PM   #515
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Not much of a blow if he can veto it.
Politics is Trench Warfare,not a BLitzkrieg.
It's a big deal for such a bill to pass a GOP controlled Senate.
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Old 14th March 2019, 05:12 PM   #516
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Not much of a blow if he can veto it.
There's still the 2/3rds or so of the public that don't like this power grab to build his vanity wall. Now, he's going to push for a budget that cuts Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security, and he's got to continue telling Congressional Republicans they better not vote against him or they'll suffer the revenge of the trumpers. It's a suicide cult.
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Old 14th March 2019, 05:13 PM   #517
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Okay, swine flu. My mistake, but the point stands. You originally said, "'When did the emergency start?' I want a date. If you can't answer that, it's not an emergency."

So, if you can't give a date that the swine flu emergency started, it was not an emergency by your own standards.

There are plenty of reasons to doubt that this is a National Emergency, but your own standard isn't convincing.
I don't have the material in front of me, but if I remember from my readings it was CDC (I think) that declared a "national health emergency" and then 6 months later Obama got around to declaring a "national emergency". He seems to have gotten a bit of heat about waiting so long. i'm going by memory which I know is fallible.
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Old 14th March 2019, 05:19 PM   #518
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
One last desperate throw of the dice, eh? Which "prominent legal scholars" would those be? Because the only "prominent legal scholars" Trump knows are currently being sentenced to extended periods in jail or quitting their jobs with him.
The ones at Liberty University Law School.
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Old 14th March 2019, 05:20 PM   #519
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
In other words "I want to do this, but I don't want the next Democratic president to be able to so".
He wants a "special deal" with "special exceptions" just for him. Doesn't want to play by the rules. Or to put it more bluntly, he wants to cheat...as usual.
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Old 14th March 2019, 05:21 PM   #520
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
The ones at Liberty University Law School.
Only the best legal scholars, then?
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