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Tags michael jackson , sex scandals

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Old 14th March 2019, 08:05 AM   #1001
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Michael Jackson: Platonic Boy-Lover of the Gaps.
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Old 14th March 2019, 08:07 AM   #1002
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Watched the documentary yesterday.

I always thought MJ was weird, and I found it weird that he sought the company of young boys. After the trial I figured "ok, maybe he didn't touch them, but he's still weird", and I sort of thought of him as a mentally challenged person, socially stuck in his childhood.

The documentary definitely brought me in to the "he did it" camp. The presented narrative explains his oddities and doesn't require any leaps of logic. The - now grown - victims are as believable as anyone I've ever seen, their stories full of details that appear to line up between the two of them and with known information.

I think the documentary will be a first step towards healing for the victims. There will be many people who won't believe it, and even many who will take out their fury on the victims. That's human. With MJ, it's like a loved one being accused for many people. It takes time and effort to come to grips with that, and for many, that'll never happen.
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Old 14th March 2019, 08:18 AM   #1003
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Yeah; it's weird to me, too. Most of us don't want such reminders of our lovers, let alone people who have hurt and abused us.

But it did make a very powerful piece of filmography; and either bolstered the claim or makes it even more suspicious, depending on your own interpretation.
I respectfully disagree. Often there is a love/hate with the abuser. As a child, I also loved my abuser, and still have momentos.
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Old 14th March 2019, 08:22 AM   #1004
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
And hmm, what do they all just happen to have in common...?



Or maybe the people he actually gave that nickname to are really in the best position to know what it means.



If you are suggesting the man bought the book himself and is lying that Michael Jackson gave it to him, the article contains a photograph of the inscription in the book by Jackson.

Interestingly, for someone who hypothetically is inventing a story of abuse against a dead person who would be wholly unable to refute anything he says, his story is rather light-weight. He says Jackson asked him to get naked, but that he refused, and ultimately Jackson never molested him, but only liked to rub up against him while wearing pajamas in his bed.

Once again; let me come back to this....
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Old 14th March 2019, 08:29 AM   #1005
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Ive seen it mentioned a few times here that the fact that he was acquitted is a sign that he was not a molester. In my view, there is a real difficulty with these kinds of cases because the evidence mostly comes down to, "Do you find the victim credible? Do you find the accused creepy enough?" without much in the way of corroborating evidence (pictures, witnesses, etc) of the abuse. Take the Satanic Panic cases where people served (and are still serving) jail time on only, at the end of the day, the word of a child -a child who had been coached and fed false memories by "experts" obsessed with bizarre but non-existent "satanic ritual abuse."

As a result of what I've learned from observing such cases, a jury verdict is not the be all end all of the truth. MJ's acquittal is one data point but there are other data points. As has been said many times: We can't know, but we each have enough data to form an opinion on how likely it is that he molested kids or not.
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Old 14th March 2019, 08:29 AM   #1006
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Just in case anyone else is wondering, we're talking about Michael Jacobshagen here (I think).

https://mjandboys.wordpress.com/2019...l-jacobshagen/

Okay; this post has led me down a weird and cringe-worthy rabbit hole.

The link leads to a page with some pictures of the book; and a couple of images of notes from Jackson to the boy. I find it very troubling, and certainly seems like a red flag if it's true.

But, I have to ask...does anyone here know anything about handwriting analysis? If so, is it typical for one's initials to be so different than their signature? I'm not convinced the note with MJ's signature is in the same hand as the note inside the book?

ETA: Also...the first two notes (one with a drawing, one inside the book) seem to be from Jackson to the boy, and the third (on the stationery with the image of a child) from the boy to Jackson, but the handwritings are very, very similar so it's hard to figure out exactly what is going on.

Does anyone know more?
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Old 14th March 2019, 08:35 AM   #1007
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
One of things that suggests that MJ was a pedophile is the fact the very close relationships he had with young boys seemed to cool as they aged. It was evidently almost exclusively, if not exclusively, young boys of a certain age he bonded closely with. He supposedly told the mother of one of the victims that their son was going to be a great Hollywood director when they grew up.

If their relationship was non-sexual, although clearly "inappropriate", you'd expect that he would continue to patronize and help him in his future endeavors. After all the reason he was having a young boy from as far away as Australia was ostensibly because he was helping him kickstart their career in showbis. Instead their relationship cooled over time as they aged and he ultimately lost interest in them completely. You'd imagine that their professional relationship would develop as they grew older and was able to dedicate more and more of their life towards their career.
Those kinds of expiration dates are not uncommon. I know this because I grew up in foster care. A lot of foster parents only want kids in a certain age range -and refuse to interact much at all with those outside of their preferred range.

I think it's rotten, but it's not rare or -I guess- abnormal.
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Old 14th March 2019, 09:01 AM   #1008
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Okay; this post has led me down a weird and cringe-worthy rabbit hole.

The link leads to a page with some pictures of the book; and a couple of images of notes from Jackson to the boy. I find it very troubling, and certainly seems like a red flag if it's true.

But, I have to ask...does anyone here know anything about handwriting analysis? If so, is it typical for one's initials to be so different than their signature? I'm not convinced the note with MJ's signature is in the same hand as the note inside the book?

ETA: Also...the first two notes (one with a drawing, one inside the book) seem to be from Jackson to the boy, and the third (on the stationery with the image of a child) from the boy to Jackson, but the handwritings are very, very similar so it's hard to figure out exactly what is going on.

Does anyone know more?
What's your working hypothesis at the moment?

Are you working from the idea that the most likely explanation is some combination of essentially innocent behavior plus false allegations from the accusers?

You say that the book is "a red flag if it's true", but what does "red flag" mean, when you use it this way? When you say the book would be a red flag, do you mean that it would be evidence in support of the accusations? Do you mean it would prompt you to re-interpret the other evidence so far presented?

I mean, at this point you seem to be coming down to, either it's evidence of an unpleasant truth, or it's a forgery of some kind. Is that where you're really at with this?
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Old 14th March 2019, 09:09 AM   #1009
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
No - stop this. There is no justification for this equivocation. Jackson stood for photos with kids of all kinds, but it is not contested that he singled out specifically preteen boys for special attention, private time, and sleepovers.
I can't dispute that. But as I posted earlier, it's really not a rare thing. Lots of my foster parents only liked to interact with kids of a certain age range and/or sex, and really didn't want anything to do with any others.

Quote:
The image isn't based on his owning these books. It's the fact that he owned these books when in combination with his other inclinations toward young boys. And nor is it likely that his owning the books is an accident; as I've already mentioned previously, the latest allegation (which is corroborated by physical evidence - a copy of one of the books, with an inscription by Jackson, given to a boy he singled out for a close relationship) makes it clear that at least that book held special significance for Jackson, it wasn't just some book among many he had. Nor has it been offered into evidence at any point that Jackson actually had a larger "collection of strange art books" that these examples just happened to belong to, or in fact owned any art-photography books whatsoever aside from these two with the naked boys in them, excepting his pornography. Something can't be "taken out of" a context that doesn't exist.
The book in question is certainly strange. A collection of images of young boys -many of them naked- doing boy things (playing, exploring, etc.) I'm not surprised Jackson -who arguably never was a boy- would be interested in seeing what boys do, but am very much weirded out if he gave a copy of it to a boy.

Mind you, the book is NOT pornographic, is not illegal, can be purchased by anyone from all kinds of venues, and I'm open to the idea the boy may have even asked Jackson to buy it for him. We don't know, and so while it's a red flag to me, it's not a smoking gun.

This is a work day for me, so maybe more later.....
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Old 14th March 2019, 09:15 AM   #1010
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Quote:
Are you working from the idea that the most likely explanation is some combination of essentially innocent behavior plus false allegations from the accusers?
Quote:
I mean, at this point you seem to be coming down to, either it's evidence of an unpleasant truth, or it's a forgery of some kind. Is that where you're really at with this?
Yes; at the moment.... I'll have to rethink a few of the things that come out lately. The book and the jewelry are both worth a long, hard look.

At this moment, I still see the $15 million dollar payout the Chandler boy received as being a motive for a lot of very enthusiastic work to make a compelling "me too" case.
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Old 14th March 2019, 09:46 AM   #1011
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post

ETA: Also...the first two notes (one with a drawing, one inside the book) seem to be from Jackson to the boy, and the third (on the stationery with the image of a child) from the boy to Jackson, but the handwritings are very, very similar so it's hard to figure out exactly what is going on.

Does anyone know more?
No, they are all from Jackson to the boy. I'm not sure why you think it's the other way round?
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Old 14th March 2019, 09:48 AM   #1012
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Yeah; it's weird to me, too. Most of us don't want such reminders of our lovers, let alone people who have hurt and abused us.
Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
I respectfully disagree. Often there is a love/hate with the abuser. As a child, I also loved my abuser, and still have momentos.

Indeed, this sort of behaviour is a lot more common than people would think. Human psychology is weird enough under the best of circumstances, and the psychology of trauma adds whole new layers of weird. And when that abuse comes from someone close, a family member or close personal friend, sometimes those mementos can be kept as reminders of the good bits, rather than the bad bits.
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Old 14th March 2019, 09:52 AM   #1013
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
We don't know, and so while it's a red flag to me, it's not a smoking gun.

The problem in sexual assault cases, unless the offender actually records the assault (which certainly happens), there are only "red flags" and victim testimony; there will pretty much never be a "smoking gun". That's the nature of the beast.
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Old 14th March 2019, 09:59 AM   #1014
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
No, they are all from Jackson to the boy. I'm not sure why you think it's the other way round?
I'm getting the distinct impression that it's more of a "hope it's the other way round".
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:17 AM   #1015
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
No, they are all from Jackson to the boy. I'm not sure why you think it's the other way round?
I'm sorry; I guess you're right.

When I first compared the notes, I thought the handwriting on the first and third were different.

On a second look, I can see the bottom of the letters are missing, as if they ran off the page (but they didn't run over the letters in "Neverland Valley" so I'm not sure what went on there).
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:19 AM   #1016
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
No, they are all from Jackson to the boy. I'm not sure why you think it's the other way round?
I can see the mistake - the boy's first name was "Michael", but the bulk of the article consistently refers to him by his last name (Jacobshagen) and uses "Michael" almost exclusively to refer to Jackson; so seeing the letters addressed to "Michael" in the middle of the article could lead to confusion.
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:20 AM   #1017
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm getting the distinct impression that it's more of a "hope it's the other way round".
I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't know any of the people involved, don't receive a penny from any of the players, don't expect any of this to impact myself personally in any way.

I just believe that if a person is going to be hounded through history for his misdeeds, we should all be convinced he actually performed those deeds.

You seem convinced, so convince me.
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:21 AM   #1018
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I can see the mistake - the boy's first name was "Michael", but the bulk of the article consistently refers to him by his last name (Jacobshagen) and uses "Michael" almost exclusively to refer to Jackson; so seeing the letters addressed to "Michael" in the middle of the article could lead to confusion.
Yes; I went back and reread everything, and now see why I got mixed up.

I thought it was two different signatures, too.

(should always have lots of coffee before posting)
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:25 AM   #1019
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
The problem in sexual assault cases, unless the offender actually records the assault (which certainly happens), there are only "red flags" and victim testimony; there will pretty much never be a "smoking gun". That's the nature of the beast.
Agreed. Unless something has been found to be completely impossible or entirely false, a preponderance of circumstantial evidence must suffice. I don't usually have a problem with that, for the most part.

It bothers me in some death penalty cases, though.
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:35 AM   #1020
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I found that very strange, I don't know how he could keep them given his allegations. I certainly wouldn't want such reminders of my abuser.
I would say, consider that if we are to take Robson at his word, he "came to his senses" after defending Jackson against these charges in legal proceedings. Watching the accusations of other boys being swept away and dismissed because there was no "proof" may have given him an appreciation for the importance of physical evidence. A child-size diamond-encrusted wedding ring probably counts as evidence of an inappropriate relationship at best, even if it doesn't necessarily prove the sexual details.

As an aside, the existence of the ring seems to be a count against a financial motive. If Robson needed money, he likely wouldn't have been able to afford to buy a diamond ring to support a made-up story; if the story wasn't made-up, but Robson's motive in coming forward was still financial, he could always have sold the ring at some point. -
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:55 AM   #1021
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't know any of the people involved, don't receive a penny from any of the players, don't expect any of this to impact myself personally in any way.

I just believe that if a person is going to be hounded through history for his misdeeds, we should all be convinced he actually performed those deeds.

You seem convinced, so convince me.
Who's hounding? And why do we "all" need to be convinced, in order for this hounding to happen? Nobody's asking you to go out there and vilify Michael Jackson. You volunteered to challenge the mainstream narrative.

Personally, I'm not convinced of anything. A case like this isn't likely to produce conclusive evidence either way. I do think it's reasonable to form a provisional conclusion from the evidence at hand, though. And my provisional conclusion is either:

- Michael Jackson was doing something bad, but not literally molesting anyone; or

- Michael Jackson was actually molesting little boys.

I think this conclusion is amply supported by the consilience of evidence, and I don't think there's any good evidence that contradicts it. The best you've done so far is a series of what-ifs and JAQs.*

I'm not in it to convince you of anything. You don't want to hound Michael Jackson? Don't hound him. You want to preserve your memory of him? Be my guest. Nobody owes you a convincing narrative. But here are two facts that everyone agrees to:

1. MJ spent hours in seclusion with underage boys.
2. MJ had an early-warning system installed outside the sanctum where he spent hours in seclusion with underage boys.

There's a lot not to like, just in those two facts taken together. So for me, there's a lot not to like about Michael Jackson, even though we may never know exactly what went on in that bedroom, and even if his accusers' don't agree on every detail.

"Maybe there's a reasonable explanation" and "maybe it's not what it looks like" only go so far. Especially when the consilience of evidence is carrying us in the other direction.


---

*I know it's not entirely rational, but to me, when the rebuttal to a claim falls so neatly into CT lines of argumentation, that's a red flag.
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Old 14th March 2019, 11:05 AM   #1022
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Yeah; it's weird to me, too. Most of us don't want such reminders of our lovers, let alone people who have hurt and abused us.

But it did make a very powerful piece of filmography; and either bolstered the claim or makes it even more suspicious, depending on your own interpretation.
In the documentary the alleged victims show that it's not as simple as one might be led to believe. Michael Jackson did a very good job in having them fall for him. It's obvious that they were infatuated with him, even if they were too young to have any sexual or romantic desires.

Jacobshagen even said that he used to look forward to returning to the US from Australia and being with Michael, including the sexual acts they were going to do which he described as being excited about.

It's not hard to see why he'd keep a memento of his experiences and his relationship with MJ considering not only who he was but also because it was he first close intimate relationship.

That said he did mention that he did not like looking at the ring, likely because of his feelings of guilt and that he still blames himself. That's not very uncommon when it comes to people who have been sexually abused and/or exploited.
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Old 14th March 2019, 11:08 AM   #1023
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Who's hounding? And why do we "all" need to be convinced, in order for this hounding to happen? Nobody's asking you to go out there and vilify Michael Jackson. You volunteered to challenge the mainstream narrative.

Personally, I'm not convinced of anything. A case like this isn't likely to produce conclusive evidence either way. I do think it's reasonable to form a provisional conclusion from the evidence at hand, though. And my provisional conclusion is either:

- Michael Jackson was doing something bad, but not literally molesting anyone; or

- Michael Jackson was actually molesting little boys.

I think this conclusion is amply supported by the consilience of evidence, and I don't think there's any good evidence that contradicts it. The best you've done so far is a series of what-ifs and JAQs.*

I'm not in it to convince you of anything. You don't want to hound Michael Jackson? Don't hound him. You want to preserve your memory of him? Be my guest. Nobody owes you a convincing narrative. But here are two facts that everyone agrees to:

1. MJ spent hours in seclusion with underage boys.
2. MJ had an early-warning system installed outside the sanctum where he spent hours in seclusion with underage boys.

There's a lot not to like, just in those two facts taken together. So for me, there's a lot not to like about Michael Jackson, even though we may never know exactly what went on in that bedroom, and even if his accusers' don't agree on every detail.

"Maybe there's a reasonable explanation" and "maybe it's not what it looks like" only go so far. Especially when the consilience of evidence is carrying us in the other direction.


---

*I know it's not entirely rational, but to me, when the rebuttal to a claim falls so neatly into CT lines of argumentation, that's a red flag.
This seems sensible. It is unfortunate for justice that a perfect case could not be made, with excellent quality undeniable evidence. The accusers' veracity is legitimately murky, and I think it's probable that (just as in OJs case) there are some lies in the body of evidence. Yet we realistically couldn't expect a perfect case with unimpeachable witnesses: reality doesn't work that way, and had these boys normal backgrounds with normal parents they wouldn't have been in a situation where Jackson would have contact with them, innocent or not. The same messiness of circumstance that makes me doubt the accusers is also the messiness that would have made it possible for them to be victims.

While I might conclude differently if I were on a jury, I have to say it really does look (barring better evidence, of course) that Jackson was molesting at least some of those kids. Chamber's purported recantation was a large factor in my previous doubt.
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Old 14th March 2019, 11:13 AM   #1024
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I've now seen the documentary and one thing that stood out to me was how Jackson had a "type" beyond just it being a male child.
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Old 14th March 2019, 11:39 AM   #1025
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
This seems sensible. It is unfortunate for justice that a perfect case could not be made, with excellent quality undeniable evidence. The accusers' veracity is legitimately murky, and I think it's probable that (just as in OJs case) there are some lies in the body of evidence. Yet we realistically couldn't expect a perfect case with unimpeachable witnesses: reality doesn't work that way, and had these boys normal backgrounds with normal parents they wouldn't have been in a situation where Jackson would have contact with them, innocent or not. The same messiness of circumstance that makes me doubt the accusers is also the messiness that would have made it possible for them to be victims.

While I might conclude differently if I were on a jury, I have to say it really does look (barring better evidence, of course) that Jackson was molesting at least some of those kids. Chamber's purported recantation was a large factor in my previous doubt.
Fair enough. On a jury, I'd have to think very carefully about my verdict. I very strongly feel that it's not sufficient to simply believe that the accused is guilty. We set the plaintiff's bar pretty high for a reason. Upholding that principle is to me much more important than satisfying my personal sense of justice or outrage.

But I don't have to uphold that principle as a parent. I can look at MJ's domestic arrangements and say, "nope! Not letting my kid anywhere near that mess! And someone should probably look into that, now that I think about it. Whatever, me and my kid are out!"

And if MJ comes back all like, "but it's innocent! And nothing was ever proven! And I can explain! And it's not what it looks like!" I still don't owe anyone a convincing explanation. I still get to say, "dude, it looks like creepy child molesting shenanigans, and I'm not having it."

ETA: And that's basically where I am with Dragon Lady's apologetics. It still looks like creepy child molesting shenanigans. If it doesn't look like that to her, fine. If it does look like that to her, but she thinks we shouldn't be saying it out loud because reasons, that's fine too. I'm going to say it out loud anyway, though. Because reasons.

Last edited by theprestige; 14th March 2019 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 14th March 2019, 02:49 PM   #1026
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This video has been making the rounds. Apparently the allegations in the documentary resemble those in a book "Michael Jackson Was My Lover". A book Jackson successfully sued for libel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb5UVMwTC5g
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Old 14th March 2019, 02:50 PM   #1027
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La Toya Jackson discusses the sleep overs and payments to parents of children. Quick research says this is from 1993
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 14th March 2019, 03:37 PM   #1028
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
This video has been making the rounds. Apparently the allegations in the documentary resemble those in a book "Michael Jackson Was My Lover". A book Jackson successfully sued for libel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb5UVMwTC5g
And?
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Old 14th March 2019, 04:11 PM   #1029
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And what?
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Old 14th March 2019, 04:33 PM   #1030
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Quote:
A child-size diamond-encrusted wedding ring probably counts as evidence of an inappropriate relationship at best, even if it doesn't necessarily prove the sexual details.
If that ring did come from Jackson under circumstances like he claims, then yes.

Even better: diamond rings can be traced.
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Old 14th March 2019, 05:39 PM   #1031
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
And what?
We were kind of hoping for RazörFist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pnoQqlygQs

He's been been making the rounds lately ...

Anyway, a 'fist' rebuttal:

https://www.mjfacts.com/strange-bedfellows/
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Old 14th March 2019, 06:12 PM   #1032
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
1. MJ spent hours in seclusion with underage boys.
2. MJ had an early-warning system installed outside the sanctum where he spent hours in seclusion with underage boys.
How could anyone even possibly justify that?
But MJ gets a pass.
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Old 14th March 2019, 07:10 PM   #1033
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
How could anyone even possibly justify that?
But MJ gets a pass.
It's good to be the King (of Pop).
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Old 14th March 2019, 08:35 PM   #1034
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
We were kind of hoping for RazörFist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pnoQqlygQs

He's been been making the rounds lately ...

Anyway, a 'fist' rebuttal:

https://www.mjfacts.com/strange-bedfellows/
Besides his great vocabulary and use of Iron Maiden font for his captions, Razorfist makes a pretty compelling case for MJ's innocence. This coming from someone who wasn't a big fan of Jackson's music and wouldn't attend one of his shows if I was paid.

The rebuttal piece is pretty bad, textbook poison the well idiocy along with making vacuous claims with no evidence.

The fact this blog supposedly debunking Fist's claims completely dodges several of his point is very telling, so is the laughable title "MJ FACTS- An objective view of Micheal Jackson"
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Old 14th March 2019, 09:13 PM   #1035
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Originally Posted by ProBonoShill View Post
...The rebuttal piece is pretty bad, textbook poison the well idiocy along with making vacuous claims with no evidence.

The fact this blog supposedly debunking Fist's claims completely dodges several of his point is very telling, so is the laughable title "MJ FACTS- An objective view of Micheal Jackson"
Eh. It was done two years ago and holds up pretty well, YMMV.

Originally Posted by ProBonoShill View Post
Besides his great vocabulary and use of Iron Maiden font for his captions, Razorfist makes a pretty compelling case for MJ's innocence. This coming from someone who wasn't a big fan of Jackson's music and wouldn't attend one of his shows if I was paid...
I know how you feel. I wouldn't go to Michael Jackson concert (DOA) either. Of course, the same applies to Iron Maiden w/wo their font.*




*Not after they got rid of Paul!
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Old 14th March 2019, 09:22 PM   #1036
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Anyway, a 'fist' rebuttal:

https://www.mjfacts.com/strange-bedfellows/
I've never seen this quote before:

Quote:
During deliberations, jury foreman Paul Rodriguez said, he and other jurors frequently discussed the testimony they had heard about past allegations that Jackson had molested or behaved inappropriately with five other boys, including two youngsters who reached multimillion-dollar settlements with the singer in the 1990s.

But, Rodriguez said, the jurors knew they could not convict solely on the basis of past allegations.

“We couldn’t weigh that with this case in particular,” he said. “We all felt that he was guilty of something. But we feel that if he didn’t learn from this experience, then it’s up to another jury to convict him.”
...but if it's accurate, then pro-Jackson arguers need to stop evoking the 2005 acquittal as an acquittal of all molestation allegations against Jackson, like they continually insist on doing. This quote by the jury foreman seems to suggest they were convinced that some of the allegations against Jackson were true.
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:07 PM   #1037
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I've never seen this quote before:



...but if it's accurate, then pro-Jackson arguers need to stop evoking the 2005 acquittal as an acquittal of all molestation allegations against Jackson, like they continually insist on doing. This quote by the jury foreman seems to suggest they were convinced that some of the allegations against Jackson were true.
Yeah in "Leaving Neverland" they show another clip from another another juror (Raymond Hultman if you want to look it up) who says,

Quote:
"I feel that, uh, Michael Jackson probably has molested boys. After some of the testimony was offered, I can't believe that, that this man could sleep in the same bedroom for 365 straight days, uh, and not do something more than just watch television and eat popcorn."
Unfortunately that's all they show. Presumably, he continues with something like "but we have to make our decision on the evidence presented to us in court."
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:12 PM   #1038
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
We were kind of hoping for RazörFist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pnoQqlygQs

He's been been making the rounds lately ...

Anyway, a 'fist' rebuttal:

https://www.mjfacts.com/strange-bedfellows/
I just watched one of his videos. I think I'll take time to watch the others, and read the rebuttal page before I post anything more.
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:23 PM   #1039
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I just watched one of his videos. I think I'll take time to watch the others, and read the rebuttal page before I post anything more.
You really should watch "Leaving Neverland" and then watch all the Youtube frou·frou. Again, YMMV.
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:43 PM   #1040
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
You really should watch "Leaving Neverland" and then watch all the Youtube frou·frou. Again, YMMV.
Yes; I will as soon as I have a chance. I'm interested in seeing it.

Although, to be honest, I've dealt with this subject here and there for so many years I'm really pretty tired of the whole thing.

After I see the show and what everyone has to say about it, I might just drop the topic altogether. As I've said before: I was never a particular fan of Jackson, have no dog in the fight, and am just finding it harder and harder to dig through the mountains of unsourced or unverifiable claims.

If he was guilty, he's gone now, so no one else is going to be hurt.
If he wasn't guilty, shame on those who continue to try to use whatever association they had with him to further their own ends.
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