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#281 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,331
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(shrug) I dunno. I don't follow very many of these cases. To be honest, I can only handle so much of the graphic and disturbing images. Whether I believe the person to be guilty or innocent doesn't ultimately matter much, either way I can walk away feeling like I need a shower and a stiff drink.
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http://www.troubador.co.uk/book_info.asp?bookid=2499 “She would be half a planet away, floating in a turquoise sea, dancing by moonlight to flamenco guitar.” ~ Janet Fitch The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One ![]() |
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#282 |
Muse
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 620
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'All'? There were 2 kids. There were 3 accusations, but 1 of them chose to flee the country to avoid testifying against Michael Jackson.
Of those 2 kids, one had his (or rather his parents had their) day in court, and the jury unanimously found against them, and not over a technicality. The third kid was actually a part of MJ's defence team, but about a decade later wanted to sue for molestation which the courts did not uphold. Make of that what you will. During the court cases there were numerous other names mentioned - of kids who were apparently molested by Jackson, as witnessed by others, but each of these kids came on as defence witnesses to categorically deny any instances of impropriety. Altogether about 40 kids who hung out with MJ in his house, in his room, have spoken up in his defence. Looking at the preponderance of evidence and deciding that the testimony of 2 kids don't match up is the correct thing to do. Asking otherwise is just a play on emotions. EDIT: 48 women have come out with accusations against Bill Cosby. So not really the same thing at all. |
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#283 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 24,787
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One of the frustrating paradoxes in all this is the way that any unusual measure can be read, depending on what you have concluded beforehand.
If, for example, you presume Jackson was a molester, then the alarm system is rather damning. It's just the kind of thing one would have installed to prevent being caught red handed. But if you presume he was not a molester, and especially if you consider him an odd person with huge amounts of money, and a bunch of issues, there are other valid reasons why such a thing might have been installed. I'm reminded of a long ago incident I read about, in which a person got himself committed to a mental institution to see how people were treated there. One of the things mentioned was the way in which presumption colored every observation made. So, for example, when he wrote in his notebook, his record showed that he had been "exhibiting note-taking behavior." It's true, and yet it's damning when put that way. You get the same thing when police arrest someone: protestations of innocence and surprise are automatically registered as aggression. And, of course, when the arrest is justified, the police are likely right. Evidence is always clearer in hindsight, but you can get badly trapped if you go at it backwards. |
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I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard) |
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#284 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,331
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Quote:
All of this happened years ago. Since the acquittal, the media have never really stopped finding ways to continue to cash in on the events, so it's harder and harder to dig through the landslide looking for a thread to follow, let alone trying to find a grain of real truth. Add in the fact people change -children grow up, and their memory of events changes. I'm always a little suspicious of claims made 20 years after an event. That doesn't mean I instantly dismiss 'em, or think the person is lying. But I do like to be able to evaluate it a bit more carefully, and am never very surprised when the allegations never go past a single tabloid spread or a few scattered reports. One more point: several people have made comments about MJ being "creepy" and "weird". But I do not recall him ever being seen in that light until AFTER the news blew up with inflammatory articles, and he was given the nickname "Wacko Jacko". I think, if the entire world thought those things about me, it would make me weird. I wonder how many of us could live with that kind of public opinion about ourselves and NOT let the pressure start deforming our lives and our self images? |
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http://www.troubador.co.uk/book_info.asp?bookid=2499 “She would be half a planet away, floating in a turquoise sea, dancing by moonlight to flamenco guitar.” ~ Janet Fitch The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One ![]() |
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#285 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 753
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#286 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 753
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Okay, found it. You'd have to be very, very distracted to not take notice of that sound.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhomMzTJS3g
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#287 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,331
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__________________
http://www.troubador.co.uk/book_info.asp?bookid=2499 “She would be half a planet away, floating in a turquoise sea, dancing by moonlight to flamenco guitar.” ~ Janet Fitch The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One ![]() |
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#288 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,806
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I remember hearing that pretty clearly well before any allegations of child molestation were made. Off the top of my head I can think of two fictional examples: the comic strip Bloom County was making fun of his behavior, and Eclipse published an issue of the comic book Crossfire that painted a very disturbing picture. The writer commented "I'm writing an issue about a seriously deranged child star. I'm making the fictional version about 12 so he's credible. This has nothing to do with the fact I just worked with Michael Jackson on a TV special."
That's all off the top of my head, so I can't really cite them. Since I didn't really follow his work, I'm not up on the "serious" rumors that were going around, but the notion that Michael Jackson had serious issues was very much a meme well before the child molestation allegations were made. |
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>Reason being is that you guys appear to have absolutely no field experience in listening for invisible people in the forest. I do. -historian |
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#289 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,331
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Quote:
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__________________
http://www.troubador.co.uk/book_info.asp?bookid=2499 “She would be half a planet away, floating in a turquoise sea, dancing by moonlight to flamenco guitar.” ~ Janet Fitch The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One ![]() |
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#290 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,389
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If he was drugged out he may not have cared. And also if he knew it was the other boy he may have gotten off on him watching. It annoys men when people make illogical arguments that supposedly proves something that it doesn't.
Also, why does a person need an alarm bell to "let them know when someone s coming" when they are innocently sleeping in bed with a boy. ![]() |
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#291 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,331
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Quote:
So far as why did he want it? Who knows? As I said upstream, I'd probably have an alarm like that, too, just because I could. But I'd have to insist on a different chime. Really. |
__________________
http://www.troubador.co.uk/book_info.asp?bookid=2499 “She would be half a planet away, floating in a turquoise sea, dancing by moonlight to flamenco guitar.” ~ Janet Fitch The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One ![]() |
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#292 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,389
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Right, you'd want something less distracting. Maybe a song. A person picks an alarm like that because they want to know if someone comes in. It's the kind of an alarm a store has. And it's loud because they need to hear it right away. Which again brings me to the question of why he needs that if he's sleeping innocently in bed with the boy?
Obviously he's not doing that. |
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#293 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,331
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Quote:
Obviously if it wasn't distracting, that would be counterproductive, no matter why it was installed. If I was counting on it to make sure I never got caught changing clothes or in the shower or just snoring away, I'd want something that would wake me up. But...to me, that sounds like the bells that used to play at full-service gas stations when someone ran over the cables. |
__________________
http://www.troubador.co.uk/book_info.asp?bookid=2499 “She would be half a planet away, floating in a turquoise sea, dancing by moonlight to flamenco guitar.” ~ Janet Fitch The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One ![]() |
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#294 |
Muse
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 620
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So he kept an alarm specifically to warn him when he is busy molesting children. But then he ignored it TWICE* (even though he didn't know who exactly was coming) when he was busy molesting children?
*The brother actually didn't even mention the alarm until the defence brought it up. |
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#295 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
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He actually had an alarm installed in his bedroom? I hadn't heard that. Some of you are straining to do so explaining.
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#296 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,389
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Pretty much. And if he knew that the boy was coming he may not have cared. He may have gotten off on the idea of a small boy walking in on him abusing another.
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#297 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,331
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__________________
http://www.troubador.co.uk/book_info.asp?bookid=2499 “She would be half a planet away, floating in a turquoise sea, dancing by moonlight to flamenco guitar.” ~ Janet Fitch The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One ![]() |
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#298 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,806
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>Reason being is that you guys appear to have absolutely no field experience in listening for invisible people in the forest. I do. -historian |
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#299 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,389
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#300 |
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,468
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Not really. He was a tad paranoid about being kidnapped or attacked by overzealous fans. The reported "triple lock" on his safe that the cops had to crack? It was one lock The other lock was the keypad lock to his "rooms" and the third was the keypad lock to the house. "Triple locked safe containing evil stuff" said the D.A.
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Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable. |
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#301 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,806
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__________________
>Reason being is that you guys appear to have absolutely no field experience in listening for invisible people in the forest. I do. -historian |
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#302 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,389
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#303 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,331
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Quote:
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__________________
http://www.troubador.co.uk/book_info.asp?bookid=2499 “She would be half a planet away, floating in a turquoise sea, dancing by moonlight to flamenco guitar.” ~ Janet Fitch The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One ![]() |
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#304 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,806
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__________________
>Reason being is that you guys appear to have absolutely no field experience in listening for invisible people in the forest. I do. -historian |
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#305 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,389
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We're not talking about imaginary creature, we're talking about reality.
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#306 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,806
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__________________
>Reason being is that you guys appear to have absolutely no field experience in listening for invisible people in the forest. I do. -historian |
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#307 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
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#308 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 753
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#309 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 24,787
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__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard) |
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#310 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
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#311 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,806
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__________________
>Reason being is that you guys appear to have absolutely no field experience in listening for invisible people in the forest. I do. -historian |
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#312 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 12,001
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And just to keep it on super-famous all-time great musicians who were also Beatles, in 1999 George Harrison was attacked in his home which had both cameras and on-site security personnel. He suffered head injuries and a punctured lung, and almost certainly would have been killed if his wife hadn't taken down the assailant with a fireplace poker and lamp.
There are few security measures I would consider too much or strange for someone as insanely famous as Michael Jackson. |
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#313 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,806
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>Reason being is that you guys appear to have absolutely no field experience in listening for invisible people in the forest. I do. -historian |
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#314 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
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An attack like that (someone throwing a statue threw a window to get in) would persuade a paranoid person to hire more security or bodyguards (as you point out, another person stopped the attack not an alarm), not install a bedroom-only alarm. Was Jackson's alarm designed to alert security to come running into his bedroom? It sounds like it was designed to alert Jackson, who would then jump out of bed with his uzi and blow away the would-be kidnappers...
Or let him know if someone came into his bedroom suite while he was having some alone-time with little boys in his bed. |
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#315 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 12,001
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I didn't even suggest that a general alarm would have prevented the attack against George Harrison, let alone a bedroom-specific one.
What I suggested is that security measures that would seem Looney Tunes for a regular person, or even a very rich but relatively anonymous person (someone whose picture isn't in tabloids occasionally, let alone every single week), aren't crazy or suspicious when it comes to the home of Michael Jackson. I'd consider a bedroom alarm in that situation if for no other reason than it's the place where I'd be most vulnerable, and I'd rather be awake with a chance of escape than have somebody kill me in my sleep. I'd probably be even more scared if people thought that I was molesting children. David Letterman had a stalker who got into his place and Rebecca Schaeffer (an unknown compared to the others I've mentioned) was famously killed by a stalker at the doorway of her apartment. |
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#316 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,806
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>Reason being is that you guys appear to have absolutely no field experience in listening for invisible people in the forest. I do. -historian |
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#317 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 753
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Out the bedroom through a second story window. Cemetery John told the family's go-between that the baby was on a boat cared for by a nurse. Ransom was originally 50,000 then raised to 70,000. Not quite "millions" but it was 1932 so that was real money. Well, more real at least.
Of course the baby actually died the night of the abduction making it all rather moot. |
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#318 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
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If I was worried about that I would have a blaring alarm that would wake everyone in the house, esp. security, who would come running to save me. Or, if I had enough money, I would just pay a bodyguard to stand guard outside the bedroom door. I wouldn't install some doorbell chime you can barely hear. ESP. if I'm taking something like propofol before I go to sleep.
If you're paranoid about being attacked, and you take heavy sedatives to sleep, wouldn't you want your alarm to sound like the world was coming to an end? Wouldn't you have guns nearby for self-defense? I don't buy the paranoia explanation. I especially don't buy it when the person who has such an alarm installed is also fond of sharing his bed with little boys, AND he's been accused of molestation... all sorts of red flags go up, and for good reasons. "Asked what he does with children in his bed he says: 'When you say bed, you are thinking sexual, they make that sexual. It's not sexual. We're going to sleep, I tuck them in and I put a little music on and when it's story time I read a book.' http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz...#ixzz4D0EQ7ufw The point is brought up that no one would let their kids stay with him, and the reason is because MJ's behavior is indicative of pedophilia. |
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#319 |
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,468
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No. The point is that like the OP, you're arguing from assertions and personal incredulity.
You want to diddle boys in private.... you dead bolt the front door, or put a chain lock on it. Ever stayed in a hotel? The staff can come through your keypad locked door at will. You have internal bolts or chains to prevent that. He had a chime. It went off when someone entered his bedroom suite, not when they were on the stairs. The staff and several associates had the keypad code. He just wanted to know when someone was coming and it could've been for multiple reasons, yet you've eliminated all but one of those reasons. |
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Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable. |
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#320 |
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,468
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__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable. |
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