Official - Michael Jackson was scum

[DragonLady]

Originally Posted by cullennz

I think Bill Cosby is guilty as.

Probably the same though.

Making it up

(shrug) I dunno. I don't follow very many of these cases. To be honest, I can only handle so much of the graphic and disturbing images. Whether I believe the person to be guilty or innocent doesn't ultimately matter much, either way I can walk away feeling like I need a shower and a stiff drink.

[Dipayan]

Originally Posted by cullennz

The kids.

Apparently they are all liars. While MJ can't be

'All'? There were 2 kids. There were 3 accusations, but 1 of them chose to flee the country to avoid testifying against Michael Jackson.

Of those 2 kids, one had his (or rather his parents had their) day in court, and the jury unanimously found against them, and not over a technicality. The third kid was actually a part of MJ's defence team, but about a decade later wanted to sue for molestation which the courts did not uphold. Make of that what you will.

During the court cases there were numerous other names mentioned - of kids who were apparently molested by Jackson, as witnessed by others, but each of these kids came on as defence witnesses to categorically deny any instances of impropriety. Altogether about 40 kids who hung out with MJ in his house, in his room, have spoken up in his defence.

Looking at the preponderance of evidence and deciding that the testimony of 2 kids don't match up is the correct thing to do. Asking otherwise is just a play on emotions.

EDIT: 48 women have come out with accusations against Bill Cosby. So not really the same thing at all.

[bruto]

One of the frustrating paradoxes in all this is the way that any unusual measure can be read, depending on what you have concluded beforehand.

If, for example, you presume Jackson was a molester, then the alarm system is rather damning. It's just the kind of thing one would have installed to prevent being caught red handed.

But if you presume he was not a molester, and especially if you consider him an odd person with huge amounts of money, and a bunch of issues, there are other valid reasons why such a thing might have been installed.


I'm reminded of a long ago incident I read about, in which a person got himself committed to a mental institution to see how people were treated there. One of the things mentioned was the way in which presumption colored every observation made. So, for example, when he wrote in his notebook, his record showed that he had been "exhibiting note-taking behavior." It's true, and yet it's damning when put that way. You get the same thing when police arrest someone: protestations of innocence and surprise are automatically registered as aggression. And, of course, when the arrest is justified, the police are likely right.

Evidence is always clearer in hindsight, but you can get badly trapped if you go at it backwards.

[DragonLady]

Quote:

One of the frustrating paradoxes in all this is the way that any unusual measure can be read, depending on what you have concluded beforehand.

Yes; absolutely -or depending on how your perception of those measures changes over time.

All of this happened years ago. Since the acquittal, the media have never really stopped finding ways to continue to cash in on the events, so it's harder and harder to dig through the landslide looking for a thread to follow, let alone trying to find a grain of real truth. Add in the fact people change -children grow up, and their memory of events changes.

I'm always a little suspicious of claims made 20 years after an event. That doesn't mean I instantly dismiss 'em, or think the person is lying. But I do like to be able to evaluate it a bit more carefully, and am never very surprised when the allegations never go past a single tabloid spread or a few scattered reports.

One more point: several people have made comments about MJ being "creepy" and "weird". But I do not recall him ever being seen in that light until AFTER the news blew up with inflammatory articles, and he was given the nickname "Wacko Jacko". I think, if the entire world thought those things about me, it would make me weird. I wonder how many of us could live with that kind of public opinion about ourselves and NOT let the pressure start deforming our lives and our self images?

[HenryLee]

Quote:

One aspect that weakened his testimony was that Star, the only witness to the alleged molestation, claimed he twice walked in on Jackson molesting Gavin and was completely unnoticed, even while tripping the alarm system in the hallway leading to Jackson's bedroom. An alarm or bell would sound whenever anyone approached, and Star claimed that on both occasions the alarm went off and Jackson didn't hear it. Neither did he hear nor see the boy come and go.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Michael_Jackson

The alarm system sucks apparently. Is there any corroboration for its existence that is not from an accuser?

[HenryLee]

Okay, found it. You'd have to be very, very distracted to not take notice of that sound.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhomMzTJS3g

[DragonLady]

Originally Posted by HenryLee

Okay, found it. You'd have to be very, very distracted to not take notice of that sound.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhomMzTJS3g

Yeah...that would annoy the hell out of anyone. Considering how many people apparently walked in and out of his room at all hours, I'm surprised he didn't opt for a more pleasant sound.

[John Nowak]

Originally Posted by DragonLady

One more point: several people have made comments about MJ being "creepy" and "weird". But I do not recall him ever being seen in that light until AFTER the news blew up with inflammatory articles, and he was given the nickname "Wacko Jacko".

I remember hearing that pretty clearly well before any allegations of child molestation were made. Off the top of my head I can think of two fictional examples: the comic strip Bloom County was making fun of his behavior, and Eclipse published an issue of the comic book Crossfire that painted a very disturbing picture. The writer commented "I'm writing an issue about a seriously deranged child star. I'm making the fictional version about 12 so he's credible. This has nothing to do with the fact I just worked with Michael Jackson on a TV special."

That's all off the top of my head, so I can't really cite them. Since I didn't really follow his work, I'm not up on the "serious" rumors that were going around, but the notion that Michael Jackson had serious issues was very much a meme well before the child molestation allegations were made.

[DragonLady]

Quote:

That's all off the top of my head, so I can't really cite them. Since I didn't really follow his work, I'm not up on the "serious" rumors that were going around, but the notion that Michael Jackson had serious issues was very much a meme well before the child molestation allegations were made.

Okay; thank-you. I never followed his work much, either. I enjoyed his music, I guess, but I never bought any of his albums or considered myself a fan.

[truethat]

Originally Posted by HenryLee

Okay, found it. You'd have to be very, very distracted to not take notice of that sound.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhomMzTJS3g

If he was drugged out he may not have cared. And also if he knew it was the other boy he may have gotten off on him watching. It annoys men when people make illogical arguments that supposedly proves something that it doesn't.

Also, why does a person need an alarm bell to "let them know when someone s coming" when they are innocently sleeping in bed with a boy.

[DragonLady]

Quote:

Also, why does a person need an alarm bell to "let them know when someone s coming" when they are innocently sleeping in bed with a boy.

Why did he need anything at all? We could make an argument for someone of his wealth never needing almost anything. He could've lived in hotel rooms, had every meal trucked in, bought new clothes every single day.

So far as why did he want it? Who knows? As I said upstream, I'd probably have an alarm like that, too, just because I could.

But I'd have to insist on a different chime. Really.

[truethat]

Right, you'd want something less distracting. Maybe a song. A person picks an alarm like that because they want to know if someone comes in. It's the kind of an alarm a store has. And it's loud because they need to hear it right away. Which again brings me to the question of why he needs that if he's sleeping innocently in bed with the boy?

Obviously he's not doing that.

[DragonLady]

Quote:

Right, you'd want something less distracting.

Actually, probably not. I'd just want something distinctive.

Obviously if it wasn't distracting, that would be counterproductive, no matter why it was installed.

If I was counting on it to make sure I never got caught changing clothes or in the shower or just snoring away, I'd want something that would wake me up. But...to me, that sounds like the bells that used to play at full-service gas stations when someone ran over the cables.

[Dipayan]

Originally Posted by truethat

If he was drugged out he may not have cared. And also if he knew it was the other boy he may have gotten off on him watching. It annoys men when people make illogical arguments that supposedly proves something that it doesn't.

Also, why does a person need an alarm bell to "let them know when someone s coming" when they are innocently sleeping in bed with a boy.

So he kept an alarm specifically to warn him when he is busy molesting children. But then he ignored it TWICE* (even though he didn't know who exactly was coming) when he was busy molesting children?

*The brother actually didn't even mention the alarm until the defence brought it up.

[Fudbucker]

He actually had an alarm installed in his bedroom? I hadn't heard that. Some of you are straining to do so explaining.

[truethat]

Pretty much. And if he knew that the boy was coming he may not have cared. He may have gotten off on the idea of a small boy walking in on him abusing another.

[DragonLady]

Originally Posted by truethat

Pretty much. And if he knew that the boy was coming he may not have cared. He may have gotten off on the idea of a small boy walking in on him abusing another.

How would he know it was the boy coming?
How would he know it wasn't two or three or ten people?

[John Nowak]

Originally Posted by truethat

Also, why does a person need an alarm bell to "let them know when someone s coming" ...

People do stuff in their bedrooms that's embarrassing, even though it's perfectly legal. You'd think he'd just lock the door, though.

[truethat]

Originally Posted by John Nowak

People do stuff in their bedrooms that's embarrassing, even though it's perfectly legal. You'd think he'd just lock the door, though.

I'm not talking about when he's alone. I'm talking about when he's in the bed with a boy.

[Foolmewunz]

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

He actually had an alarm installed in his bedroom? I hadn't heard that. Some of you are straining to do so explaining.

Not really. He was a tad paranoid about being kidnapped or attacked by overzealous fans. The reported "triple lock" on his safe that the cops had to crack? It was one lock The other lock was the keypad lock to his "rooms" and the third was the keypad lock to the house. "Triple locked safe containing evil stuff" said the D.A.

[John Nowak]

Originally Posted by truethat

I'm not talking about when he's alone. I'm talking about when he's in the bed with a boy.

Can you prove it was only used when he was in bed with a boy?

[truethat]

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

Not really. He was a tad paranoid about being kidnapped or attacked by overzealous fans. The reported "triple lock" on his safe that the cops had to crack? It was one lock The other lock was the keypad lock to his "rooms" and the third was the keypad lock to the house. "Triple locked safe containing evil stuff" said the D.A.

This post is completely irrelevant to what he was saying?

[DragonLady]

Quote:

He was a tad paranoid about being kidnapped or attacked by overzealous fans.

Actually, I can see that. Someone could break in, take him out, put him on a boat & hold him for millions in ransom. His family and fans would've paid it, I'm sure.

[John Nowak]

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Absolutely true; no doubt about it. But, once again, we're talking about just another little weight on the scale. Taken alone, absent any context, it's no work at all to imagine a way that the alarm - OR the sleepovers, OR the books with naked kid pictures in them, OR whatever other individual thing - could easily be completely innocuous. But in Michael Jackson's case, the "little things" keep coming, and one has to keep making up more hypothetical stories to explain how Jackson just kept managing to do these completely innocuous things that happened make him look kind of like a pedophile....

I see where you're coming from and I don't necessarily disagree, but on this site doesn't this chain of logic typically end with "and that is why I believe in Bigfoot?"

Lots of weak evidence doesn't actually sum up.

[truethat]

We're not talking about imaginary creature, we're talking about reality.

[John Nowak]

Originally Posted by truethat

We're not talking about imaginary creature, we're talking about reality.

Or an imaginary crime.

[Fudbucker]

Originally Posted by DragonLady

Actually, I can see that. Someone could break in, take him out, put him on a boat & hold him for millions in ransom. His family and fans would've paid it, I'm sure.

Is this trolling? You can't be serious.

[HenryLee]

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

Is this trolling? You can't be serious.

Happened to the Lindbergh baby.

Sort of.

But not really.

Well, the first bit did.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

Is this trolling? You can't be serious.

After all, it's not as if anyone ever harmed a rock star.

[Fudbucker]

Originally Posted by bruto

After all, it's not as if anyone ever harmed a rock star.

In their bedroom?

[John Nowak]

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

Is this trolling? You can't be serious.

This was after John Lennon's murder, remember. It's not like everyone with an alarm system set it up to alert them while molesting children.

[Babbylonian]

Originally Posted by John Nowak

This was after John Lennon's murder, remember. It's not like everyone with an alarm system set it up to alert them while molesting children.

And just to keep it on super-famous all-time great musicians who were also Beatles, in 1999 George Harrison was attacked in his home which had both cameras and on-site security personnel. He suffered head injuries and a punctured lung, and almost certainly would have been killed if his wife hadn't taken down the assailant with a fireplace poker and lamp.

There are few security measures I would consider too much or strange for someone as insanely famous as Michael Jackson.

[John Nowak]

Originally Posted by HenryLee

Happened to the Lindbergh baby.

IIRC, wasn't he kidnapped from his bedroom?

[Fudbucker]

Originally Posted by Babbylonian

And just to keep it on super-famous all-time great musicians who were also Beatles, in 1999 George Harrison was attacked in his home which had both cameras and on-site security personnel. He suffered head injuries and a punctured lung, and almost certainly would have been killed if his wife hadn't taken down the assailant with a fireplace poker and lamp.

There are few security measures I would consider too much or strange for someone as insanely famous as Michael Jackson.

An attack like that (someone throwing a statue threw a window to get in) would persuade a paranoid person to hire more security or bodyguards (as you point out, another person stopped the attack not an alarm), not install a bedroom-only alarm. Was Jackson's alarm designed to alert security to come running into his bedroom? It sounds like it was designed to alert Jackson, who would then jump out of bed with his uzi and blow away the would-be kidnappers...

Or let him know if someone came into his bedroom suite while he was having some alone-time with little boys in his bed.

[Babbylonian]

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

An attack like that (someone throwing a statue threw a window to get in) would persuade a paranoid person to hire more security or bodyguards (as you point out, another person stopped the attack not an alarm), not install a bedroom-only alarm.

I didn't even suggest that a general alarm would have prevented the attack against George Harrison, let alone a bedroom-specific one.

What I suggested is that security measures that would seem Looney Tunes for a regular person, or even a very rich but relatively anonymous person (someone whose picture isn't in tabloids occasionally, let alone every single week), aren't crazy or suspicious when it comes to the home of Michael Jackson. I'd consider a bedroom alarm in that situation if for no other reason than it's the place where I'd be most vulnerable, and I'd rather be awake with a chance of escape than have somebody kill me in my sleep. I'd probably be even more scared if people thought that I was molesting children.

David Letterman had a stalker who got into his place and Rebecca Schaeffer (an unknown compared to the others I've mentioned) was famously killed by a stalker at the doorway of her apartment.

[John Nowak]

Originally Posted by Babbylonian

I'd consider a bedroom alarm in that situation if for no other reason than it's the place where I'd be most vulnerable, and I'd rather be awake with a chance of escape than have somebody kill me in my sleep.

You might not be able to install motion alarms in, say, the laundry room because people had to work there, but an alarm on the bedroom makes sense if the staff knew to avoid it. No idea if he had people working in his place 24/7, but it wouldn't surprise me.

[HenryLee]

Originally Posted by John Nowak

IIRC, wasn't he kidnapped from his bedroom?

Out the bedroom through a second story window. Cemetery John told the family's go-between that the baby was on a boat cared for by a nurse. Ransom was originally 50,000 then raised to 70,000. Not quite "millions" but it was 1932 so that was real money. Well, more real at least.

Of course the baby actually died the night of the abduction making it all rather moot.

[Fudbucker]

Originally Posted by Babbylonian

I didn't even suggest that a general alarm would have prevented the attack against George Harrison, let alone a bedroom-specific one.

What I suggested is that security measures that would seem Looney Tunes for a regular person, or even a very rich but relatively anonymous person (someone whose picture isn't in tabloids occasionally, let alone every single week), aren't crazy or suspicious when it comes to the home of Michael Jackson. I'd consider a bedroom alarm in that situation if for no other reason than it's the place where I'd be most vulnerable, and I'd rather be awake with a chance of escape than have somebody kill me in my sleep. I'd probably be even more scared if people thought that I was molesting children.

David Letterman had a stalker who got into his place and Rebecca Schaeffer (an unknown compared to the others I've mentioned) was famously killed by a stalker at the doorway of her apartment.

If I was worried about that I would have a blaring alarm that would wake everyone in the house, esp. security, who would come running to save me. Or, if I had enough money, I would just pay a bodyguard to stand guard outside the bedroom door. I wouldn't install some doorbell chime you can barely hear. ESP. if I'm taking something like propofol before I go to sleep.

If you're paranoid about being attacked, and you take heavy sedatives to sleep, wouldn't you want your alarm to sound like the world was coming to an end? Wouldn't you have guns nearby for self-defense? I don't buy the paranoia explanation.

I especially don't buy it when the person who has such an alarm installed is also fond of sharing his bed with little boys, AND he's been accused of molestation... all sorts of red flags go up, and for good reasons.

"Asked what he does with children in his bed he says: 'When you say bed, you are thinking sexual, they make that sexual. It's not sexual. We're going to sleep, I tuck them in and I put a little music on and when it's story time I read a book.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz...#ixzz4D0EQ7ufw

The point is brought up that no one would let their kids stay with him, and the reason is because MJ's behavior is indicative of pedophilia.

[Foolmewunz]

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

If I was worried about that I would have a blaring alarm that would wake everyone in the house, esp. security, who would come running to save me. Or, if I had enough money, I would just pay a bodyguard to stand guard outside the bedroom door. I wouldn't install some doorbell chime you can barely hear. ESP. if I'm taking something like propofol before I go to sleep.

If you're paranoid about being attacked, and you take heavy sedatives to sleep, wouldn't you want your alarm to sound like the world was coming to an end? Wouldn't you have guns nearby for self-defense? I don't buy the paranoia explanation.

I especially don't buy it when the person who has such an alarm installed is also fond of sharing his bed with little boys, AND he's been accused of molestation... all sorts of red flags go up, and for good reasons.

"Asked what he does with children in his bed he says: 'When you say bed, you are thinking sexual, they make that sexual. It's not sexual. We're going to sleep, I tuck them in and I put a little music on and when it's story time I read a book.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz...#ixzz4D0EQ7ufw

The point is brought up that no one would let their kids stay with him, and the reason is because MJ's behavior is indicative of pedophilia.

No. The point is that like the OP, you're arguing from assertions and personal incredulity.

You want to diddle boys in private.... you dead bolt the front door, or put a chain lock on it. Ever stayed in a hotel? The staff can come through your keypad locked door at will. You have internal bolts or chains to prevent that. He had a chime. It went off when someone entered his bedroom suite, not when they were on the stairs. The staff and several associates had the keypad code. He just wanted to know when someone was coming and it could've been for multiple reasons, yet you've eliminated all but one of those reasons.

[Foolmewunz]

Originally Posted by truethat

This post is completely irrelevant to what he was saying?

Hey, good to see you back. Now we can learn what we're supposed to think about this case.

The post is quite relevant. The poster claims that there is only one possible reason for having an alarm "in his bedroom".... GASP. There are several possible reasons.