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Tags 2020 elections , democratic party , presidential candidates

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Old 13th January 2019, 07:48 PM   #361
Stacyhs
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At least we know the candidate can lie on a frequent and consistent basis, engage in childish name-calling and bullying, grab women by the kitty, and commit crimes and still get elected. Oh, wait...we're not talking about a Republican candidate...
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Old 13th January 2019, 07:59 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
At least we know the candidate can lie on a frequent and consistent basis, engage in childish name-calling and bullying, grab women by the kitty, and commit crimes and still get elected. Oh, wait...we're not talking about a Republican candidate...
Yes, you are clearly talking about Bill Clinton.
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Old 13th January 2019, 08:22 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
At least we know the candidate can lie on a frequent and consistent basis, engage in childish name-calling and bullying, grab women by the kitty, and commit crimes and still get elected. Oh, wait...we're not talking about a Republican candidate...
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Yes, you are clearly talking about Bill Clinton.
Oh, whataboutism at its finest. That sure excuses Donnie's behavior, doesn't it?

Next time, try using it against someone who hasn't been out of office for 2 decades.
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Old 13th January 2019, 09:03 PM   #364
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Looks wise, Ms. Gabbard has a real President Lynda Carter thing going.
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Old 13th January 2019, 09:45 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
Then why were you comparing her to Clinton? Her views were far more anti-gay than the mainstream Democrats at the time. It's not accurate to downplay them.

I'm not seeing where you get your certainty from. By her statements, she didn't change her mind on abortion or homosexuality, but changed her view on them as public policy because she didn't want to end up like Islam. That's a fair weather ally at best (well, to some if we ignore the alt-right level Islam rhetoric), and a political opportunist at worst.

Judging by the rest of her history, I'm going with opportunist.
I was only comparing her to Clinton there in the sense of how Clinton came on board with gay marriage even later than Gabbard.

It's hard to say if her views were more anti-gay than average for a democrat or not, because so many politicians are, like you mention, primarily just opportunists who will claim to think wherever the most popular current position is. Did Clinton ever really oppose gay marriage when she claimed to, for another comparison? Hard to say. I think most politicians didn't really care either way by 2006 or so.

Regarding whether or not she's a "fair weather ally" - people can separate their personal views of personal morality from their deeply held convictions about what the government role should be. For example, I'll vote for Christians, even when they think atheists like me are going to hell, as long as I'm confident that they also believe in separation of church and state.

I really don't think Gabbard is an opportunist, because of her wildly unpopular positions on Syria. Political opportunists don't generally take positions that are demonized by the establishments of both major parties.

That's just my opinion, though.
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Old 13th January 2019, 10:08 PM   #366
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Gabbard is Gillibrand spelled out in seashells. Opportunists, both. Gillebrand's back story is a little more digestible.
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Old 13th January 2019, 10:11 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Gabbard is Gillebrand spelled out in seashells. Opportunists, both. Gillebrand's back story is a little more digestible.
I can almost understand why someone would think she's "kooky", but I'm really not seeing "opportunist". "Opportunists" shy away from positions that can be painted as "kooky".

Why do you think she's an opportunist?
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Old 13th January 2019, 10:28 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I can almost understand why someone would think she's "kooky", but I'm really not seeing "opportunist". "Opportunists" shy away from positions that can be painted as "kooky".

Why do you think she's an opportunist?
Upstate moderate-to-conservative Democrat. Was in the Blue Dog caucus when in the House. Either that was opportunistic(she was from a purple district in mid-upper NY state) or her edging to the left is opportunistic. Her for it/against it waffling on the Anti-Boycott(Israel) bill that she sponsored is also noteworthy.

I just don't find her come to Jesus interview that convincing. She's in a more progressive Democratic Party and from a state that votes progressive/liberal. Finding her own earlier opinions embarrassing might work if she was a student at that time. She was a Congresswoman and over forty.

I feel she'll continue the Democratic sell-out to big business and Wall Street. Just my personal feelings - nothing more to go on than the above. Will I accept her as the candidate? Sure. I'll be more accepting if her post 2011 conversion continues.
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Old 13th January 2019, 10:36 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Upstate moderate-to-conservative Democrat. Was in the Blue Dog caucus when in the House. Either that was opportunistic(she was from a purple district in mid-upper NY state) or her edging to the left is opportunistic. Her for it/against it waffling on the Anti-Boycott(Israel) bill that she sponsored is also noteworthy.

I just don't find her come to Jesus interview that convincing. She's in a more progressive Democratic Party and from a state that votes progressive/liberal. Finding her own earlier opinions embarrassing might work if she was a student at that time. She was a Congresswoman and over forty.

I feel she'll continue the Democratic sell-out to big business and Wall Street. Just my personal feelings - nothing more to go on than the above. Will I accept her as the candidate? Sure. I'll be more accepting if her post 2011 conversion continues.
Yeah, that makes sense. I don't exactly trust her completely, which I really do Warren.

I still lean to thinking Gabbard is more eccentric than opportunist because of her Syria stance, though. And the idea that she had a "come to Jesus" experience about the folly of all things neoconservatism as a result of her Iraq tour has the ring of truth to it.
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Old 13th January 2019, 11:09 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I was only comparing her to Clinton there in the sense of how Clinton came on board with gay marriage even later than Gabbard.

It's hard to say if her views were more anti-gay than average for a democrat or not, because so many politicians are, like you mention, primarily just opportunists who will claim to think wherever the most popular current position is. Did Clinton ever really oppose gay marriage when she claimed to, for another comparison? Hard to say. I think most politicians didn't really care either way by 2006 or so.
I don't think you are addressing my point about why this comparison is inaccurate. Gabbard was against civil unions, not just gay marriage. And anti-gay bullying for schools. And she called people "homosexual extremists" on multiple occasions. That's all more anti-gay than the average Democrat of the day, including Clinton. Even Bush supported civil unions.
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Old 13th January 2019, 11:22 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
I don't think you are addressing my point about why this comparison is inaccurate. Gabbard was against civil unions, not just gay marriage. And anti-gay bullying for schools. And she called people "homosexual extremists" on multiple occasions. That's all more anti-gay than the average Democrat of the day, including Clinton. Even Bush supported civil unions.
I know she was against civil unions 15 years ago. I'm just noting that she changed her mind and became thoroughly pro-gay marriage before Clinton & other major Democrats became pro-gay marriage.

Maybe in her heart of hearts she's still a tad twitchy about gayness, but since she wouldn't try to executive action ban gay marriage or anything like that, it doesn't really matter. She might think I'm going to Naraka after death, too, but since I don't think hell is real and I believe she supports the separation of church and state, I don't really care all that much about that, either.
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Old 14th January 2019, 07:10 AM   #372
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Pretty much all that matters is defeating Trump. Everything else is way down the priority list.

An under qualified progressive candidate who has controversial opinions, a background that concerns progressives, and who is Hindu, would not be an optimal choice. To put it mildly.
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Old 14th January 2019, 07:33 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Pretty much all that matters is defeating Trump. Everything else is way down the priority list.

An under qualified progressive candidate who has controversial opinions, a background that concerns progressives, and who is Hindu, would not be an optimal choice. To put it mildly.
Probably not, but it's hard to say for absolutely sure this early in.

Personally, I'm unlikely to vote for her unless polling close to the primary shows her as more likely to beat Trump in a hypothetical matchup compared to the other progressives running.
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Old 14th January 2019, 07:36 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Best to get it out BEFORE you pick a nominee. Figure on the Republicans being able to dig.
If picking the nominee was less of a public spectacle, I'd agree with you.

But it's going to be public. With debates and attack ads and muck slinging all out in the open.
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Old 14th January 2019, 07:54 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Gabbard is an example of a common phenomenon -- one that's politically incorrect to point out.

Ex-military are extra welcome to the Democratic party for obvious reasons, and they undeservedly rise through the ranks because of that. Evidence: Gabbard.

People of color and woman are extra welcome to the Republican party for obvious reasons, and they undeservedly rise through the ranks because of that. Evidence: Clarence Thomas, Sarah Palin.
You're probably right.
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Old 14th January 2019, 08:43 AM   #376
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Warren needs to show she can put Trump in his place. She played right into his hands when she took the DNA test. Trump owned the decision cycle on the whole Pocahontas thing. She needs to show she can make Trump respond her, on her terms.
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Old 14th January 2019, 08:46 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Gabbard is an example of a common phenomenon -- one that's politically incorrect to point out.

Ex-military are extra welcome to the Democratic party for obvious reasons, and they undeservedly rise through the ranks because of that. Evidence: Gabbard.

People of color and woman are extra welcome to the Republican party for obvious reasons, and they undeservedly rise through the ranks because of that. Evidence: Clarence Thomas, Sarah Palin.
Political parties are always going to seek out spokespeople from demographics they either A) feel they are weak/unpopular with or B) their political opponents have painted them as being weak/unpopular with or C) actually are weak/unpopular with.

That's hardly a sinister thing to just... acknowledge as something that happens.

Hell that's literally a working definition of how large scale politics works. Find a demographic you feel you aren't "connecting" with and try to connect with them.
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Old 14th January 2019, 08:50 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Warren needs to show she can put Trump in his place. She played right into his hands when she took the DNA test. Trump owned the decision cycle on the whole Pocahontas thing. She needs to show she can make Trump respond her, on her terms.
Trump's base will love him and vote for him the same no matter what he does, as long whatever he does is sufficiently awful for their tastes.

It's voter enthusiasm based on policies people want and need that the Democratic candidates need to be going for to defeat Trump, IMO. If we can get voter turnout back to Obama 2008 levels, it'll be easy.
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Old 14th January 2019, 09:02 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Trump's base will love him and vote for him the same no matter what he does, as long whatever he does is sufficiently awful for their tastes.

It's voter enthusiasm based on policies people want and need that the Democratic candidates need to be going for to defeat Trump, IMO. If we can get voter turnout back to Obama 2008 levels, it'll be easy.
The only thing that's going to be easy is the acceptance speech. Getting the turnout back to 2008 levels is going to take a lot of work and a lot of fire in the belly.
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Old 14th January 2019, 10:18 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Warren needs to show she can put Trump in his place. She played right into his hands when she took the DNA test. Trump owned the decision cycle on the whole Pocahontas thing. She needs to show she can make Trump respond her, on her terms.
Given that Trump has already revived the Pocahontas-thing, I'll dare say she'll have plenty of opportunities to try and turn the conversation.
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Old 14th January 2019, 10:35 AM   #381
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In all seriousness, I'd like to see her challenge him to an IQ test.

Not even kidding.
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Old 14th January 2019, 05:22 PM   #382
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Timing and venue is everything there. It could work if you do it right.
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Old 14th January 2019, 06:06 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Political parties are always going to seek out spokespeople from demographics they either A) feel they are weak/unpopular with or B) their political opponents have painted them as being weak/unpopular with or C) actually are weak/unpopular with.

That's hardly a sinister thing to just... acknowledge as something that happens.

Hell that's literally a working definition of how large scale politics works. Find a demographic you feel you aren't "connecting" with and try to connect with them.
It's the "undeservedly rising through the ranks" part that I'm calling bs on.
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Old 14th January 2019, 06:51 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
It's the "undeservedly rising through the ranks" part that I'm calling bs on.
What the hell is 'deeserving'? Do we get what we deserve? Are we deserving of what we get? I don't think we are. It's amazing how far people climb up the ladder simply because of connections and that is true in both parties.
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Old 14th January 2019, 08:07 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
In all seriousness, I'd like to see her challenge him to an IQ test.

Not even kidding.
I can't see that playing out any way other than badly for Warren.

Trump wouldn't rise to the challenge. He'd bluster and blather and shamelessly rope Warren into a game of Chase the Buffoon.

The test will not happen. If Warren tries to castigate Trump for it, she'll just look increasingly childish and irrelevant. Can you imagine the headlines? "Warren insists on IQ challenge, Trump: Nah."

Or, when it becomes obvious that Trump won't play along, she can back off and let the matter drop. Which just makes her look weak.

And either way, she's handing Trump one or two news cycles of distraction from the real issues that need to be addressed. Immigration, healthcare, Russian aggression... And the Democrat nominee is caught up in a media slapfight over IQ tests.
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Old 14th January 2019, 08:20 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I can't see that playing out any way other than badly for Warren.

Trump wouldn't rise to the challenge. He'd bluster and blather and shamelessly rope Warren into a game of Chase the Buffoon.

The test will not happen. If Warren tries to castigate Trump for it, she'll just look increasingly childish and irrelevant. Can you imagine the headlines? "Warren insists on IQ challenge, Trump: Nah."

Or, when it becomes obvious that Trump won't play along, she can back off and let the matter drop. Which just makes her look weak.

And either way, she's handing Trump one or two news cycles of distraction from the real issues that need to be addressed. Immigration, healthcare, Russian aggression... And the Democrat nominee is caught up in a media slapfight over IQ tests.
Wow! I agree with you on something. That just may be the 7th sign.

I'd love to play him in chess or poker. I don't think he is smart or knwledgeable. But we'll never know.

That said, I might use Trump's claim of being smart against him. I'd play his game and call him Mr. MORON and Liar in chief. I'd attack attack attack. I'd make sure that he knows he's as dumb as a box of rocks.

And when someone would say I'm not respecting the office, I'd say I'd love to treat the office with respect. The moment Trump does.
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Old 14th January 2019, 08:21 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What the hell is 'deeserving'? Do we get what we deserve? Are we deserving of what we get? I don't think we are. It's amazing how far people climb up the ladder simply because of connections and that is true in both parties.
This is true for pretty much anything. Working hard is great when it comes to your job, but if you really want a promotion then you need to make connections with the people above you so that they know who you are and if you'll fit into the company management structure. Politics is a job, hence the same rules apply.
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Old 14th January 2019, 08:28 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
This is true for pretty much anything. Working hard is great when it comes to your job, but if you really want a promotion then you need to make connections with the people above you so that they know who you are and if you'll fit into the company management structure. Politics is a job, hence the same rules apply.
I learned that the hard way.
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Old 14th January 2019, 09:59 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I can't see that playing out any way other than badly for Warren.

Trump wouldn't rise to the challenge. He'd bluster and blather and shamelessly rope Warren into a game of Chase the Buffoon.

The test will not happen. If Warren tries to castigate Trump for it, she'll just look increasingly childish and irrelevant. Can you imagine the headlines? "Warren insists on IQ challenge, Trump: Nah."

Or, when it becomes obvious that Trump won't play along, she can back off and let the matter drop. Which just makes her look weak.

And either way, she's handing Trump one or two news cycles of distraction from the real issues that need to be addressed. Immigration, healthcare, Russian aggression... And the Democrat nominee is caught up in a media slapfight over IQ tests.
I'd challenge him to one early on, before any of the general debates, and when he refused, offer one public putdown about it (actually written by the funniest DNC staffer out there, heh) and then quietly keep the issue (and a few more well-written comments about it) up my sleeve for if he pissed me off in a debate.
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Old 15th January 2019, 12:07 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I can't see that playing out any way other than badly for Warren.

Trump wouldn't rise to the challenge. He'd bluster and blather and shamelessly rope Warren into a game of Chase the Buffoon.

The test will not happen. If Warren tries to castigate Trump for it, she'll just look increasingly childish and irrelevant. Can you imagine the headlines? "Warren insists on IQ challenge, Trump: Nah."

Or, when it becomes obvious that Trump won't play along, she can back off and let the matter drop. Which just makes her look weak.

And either way, she's handing Trump one or two news cycles of distraction from the real issues that need to be addressed. Immigration, healthcare, Russian aggression... And the Democrat nominee is caught up in a media slapfight over IQ tests.
(bolding mine)

Absolutely. Best advice to give to all serious Democratic candidates.
I hope they'll heed your advice.
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Old 15th January 2019, 12:12 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
In all seriousness, I'd like to see her challenge him to an IQ test.

Not even kidding.
Don't you know that IQ tests only measure a person's ability to take an IQ test?--Every Liberal Poster on this Board.
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Old 15th January 2019, 12:30 AM   #392
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I do think that what 2020 needs is an "Anti-Trump", a candidate that allows people to exorcise the country and themselves from the last four years, similar to the way Obama ran as an Anti-Bush.
Candidates shouldn't run as if in opposition to Trump, but they should emphasize what they will do different going forward.
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Old 15th January 2019, 02:56 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What the hell is 'deeserving'? Do we get what we deserve? Are we deserving of what we get? I don't think we are. It's amazing how far people climb up the ladder simply because of connections and that is true in both parties.
Don't go all dictionary on me please. But at least spell it right.

That's shorthand for rising up the ranks faster than other people who have better qualifications, ala the examples I cited.

As for it being true in both parties, I pointed that out explicitly in the part you failed to quote back. Pay better attention.
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Old 15th January 2019, 05:52 AM   #394
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As could be expected: Tulsi Gabbard defended by Glenn Greenwald on Tucker Carlson's show ... (link)

If she manages to transform just a small % of Democratic voters into "Tulsi or bust" idiots, that would be "mission fulfilled".
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Old 15th January 2019, 09:43 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Firestone View Post
If she manages to transform just a small % of Democratic voters into "Tulsi or bust" idiots, that would be "mission fulfilled".
You think she's a republican plant and that's her objective?
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Old 15th January 2019, 10:03 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
You think she's a republican plant and that's her objective?
No, I don't think that.
But when you see how she is treated by Fox and RT, that is exactly what they hope her campaign will achieve.

Maybe she is a "useful idiot".
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Old 15th January 2019, 10:18 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by Firestone View Post
No, I don't think that.
But when you see how she is treated by Fox and RT, that is exactly what they hope her campaign will achieve.

Maybe she is a "useful idiot".
The wiki says: "propagandist for a cause of whose goals they are not fully aware and who is used cynically by the leaders of the cause" - pretty sure whatever is going on with Gabbard, it's not that, either.

FWIW, "the left" in general seems pretty "meh" about her. The only person I know who just adores her is a former "Ron Paul libertarian" ("former" strictly in the sense that he can't really be that any more, because Paul isn't on the scene any more.)

Honestly, I think whether or not a "whoever-or-bust" movement rises up will depend mostly on if the DNC is again seen as tilting the tables in the primary.
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Old 15th January 2019, 11:22 AM   #398
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Here's some interesting oppo research on Kamala Harris. Did you know that she dated California political legend Willie Brown while Brown was married? The relationship didn't have a happy ending:

Quote:
But the day after Christmas, Brown stunned his friends by announcing that he was breaking up with Kamala.
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Old 15th January 2019, 06:04 PM   #399
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New York Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand Announces 2020 Presidential Run

New York Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand says she is running for president, joining a growing number of Democrats who are seeking to challenge President Trump in 2020.

Gillbrand announced her decision on CBS's The Late Show with Stephen Colbert, saying she is filing her exploratory committee for the White House on Tuesday evening.

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/15/67829...esidential-run
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Old 15th January 2019, 07:13 PM   #400
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Is Gillibrand kind of a "fiscal conservative"?

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/03/n...BEF384&gwt=pay
Quote:
"We could have gone further in reducing America’s debt with a sensible compromise that both cut discretionary spending and raised revenues. It is unfortunate Congress missed that opportunity"
"Cutting discretionary spending" means cutting Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid, basically always, as far as I know.
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