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Old 21st February 2019, 10:16 AM   #361
Upchurch
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And I don't disagree on that point.

But political reality sadly sometimes requires some unfairness.

You've got to sell a little harder to the people further away from you. That's a bit cynical and maybe a little manipulative, but it is a thing.
To be fair, I'm not trying to sell anything or talking about a group of people. I'm asking one person how they came to their decision that one quote swung them against Clinton that hard compared to someone like Trump.
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Old 21st February 2019, 10:38 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Your problem is that you trust the Washington Post more than the NY Post, or the Washington Times.

If you stuck to those august publications instead, such problems of perception would vanish for you.
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Old 21st February 2019, 10:42 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
To be fair, I'm not trying to sell anything or talking about a group of people. I'm asking one person how they came to their decision that one quote swung them against Clinton that hard compared to someone like Trump.
Because at least some of them were looking for reasons to not like Hillary and not looking for reasons to not like Trump.

My evidence is all politics ever of all time.
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Old 21st February 2019, 11:10 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by W.D.Clinger View Post
Following a quotation of my one post in this thread, ServiceSoon wrote:

That much is accurate, if "soon" is taken to mean several years and "the Mexican State of Texas" is taken to be one of the political units in which US immigrants outnumbered other citizens of Mexico. (In the state of Coahuila y Tejas, comprised of three districts (not states) including one that more or less coincided with the parts of modern Texas then claimed by Mexico, English-speaking settlers were a minority.)

Not at all. Those who bother to check will find I wrote nothing that could be construed as such a claim.
I asked a question to help me further my understanding of your position and/or your objection to my statement. I was not intending to misconstrue your position. Since you took issue with the first form of this question, what if I ask it in the opposite way "Do you agree that non-Mexican immigrants outnumbering Mexican Citizens played a role in the switch of ownership for this parcel of land?

Originally Posted by W.D.Clinger View Post
True.

Nonetheless, you attributed two serious errors to the slide show you saw in St Louis, in addition to omitting a rather important fact that's highly relevant here: Years after Mexico had declared its independence from Spain, but shortly before that independence had been achieved, Moses Austin negotiated a land grant with the Spanish governor of Mexico that called for a settlement of 300 immigrant families. Moses Austin died soon thereafter, and the settlement was accomplished by his son, Stephen F Austin, during the years after Mexico had achieved its independence. Austin and his settlers maintained generally good relations with the government of newly independent Mexico, which of course included Texas at that time, leading to more immigration of English-speaking settlers into Texas. Conflicts eventually arose, including a conflict over the settlers' importation of slaves, leading Austin to support Santa Anna's rise to power. Mexico eventually feared the United States might attempt to annex Texas; in 1832 the English-speaking settlers of Texas held a convention designed to reaffirm their loyalty to Mexico while requesting reforms such as a return to less restrictive immigration policy and a greater degree of influence within, or some degree of independence from, Coahuila y Tejas (which included Mexican Texas).
Can you please explain how any of the additional details you provided in this post invalidate my original claim that, "the allegiance, customs, ideas, and ambitions of the inhabitants affect the governance of a providence."

There are many different ways to peacefully change the type of government in a community that is already established; one of those ways is through the entry of immigrants. I would describe this method as a hostile takeover .

Originally Posted by W.D.Clinger View Post
In the following, I have highlighted your errors of commission:

Following the Texas Revolution of 1836, Texas became the independent Republic of Texas; Texas has never been a US territory. Although a majority of Texans would probably have preferred for Texas to be annexed by the United States, that course was opposed by political leaders of the US because Texas would have become a slave-holding state and also because annexation would have led immediately to war with Mexico, as did result when Texas became part of the United States in 1845/1846.
I agree that I made an error when I said that Mexico did not control immigration to their territory. At first, they did indeed welcome immigrants. Later, they reversed that position and severely restricted immigration. One of the reasons for that was the fear that they would lose the territory to the new inhabitants. That fear turned out to manifest.

I was also mistaken when I said that Mexican territory became a US territory or they could have voted for allegiance to the US. However, what is important and still supports my original thesis, is that Mexico lost control of that territory as a result of non-Mexican citizens (Legal Immigrants).

If I make the following changes to my original statement, can you agree with it?
Originally Posted by Servicesoon
This is a cautionary tale; Mexican Authorities lost ownership of the parcel of land known today as Texas, due to the amount of non-Mexican immigrants that resided in the Mexican territory.

In this example, immigration completely transformed the lives of the people whom lived in this territory. Concern for immigration into a country isn't automatically racist or bigoted, sometimes it's a realistic concern that has been proven possible by historical examples.
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Old 21st February 2019, 11:49 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
You're saying that calling Trump out on pandering to racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic and Islamaphobic people, Clinton put herself on a similar level of undesirableness as the guy who was pandering to racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic and Islamaphobic people?
I think that those people picked up the "deplorables" label as a badge of honor. "I'm a deplorable!" sure sounds better than "I'm a racist homophobe!"

(They could frame themselves as the victims of hate instead of the aggressors.)

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Old 21st February 2019, 11:52 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
You're saying that calling Trump out on pandering to racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic and Islamaphobic people, Clinton put herself on a similar level of undesirableness as the guy who was pandering to racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic and Islamaphobic people?
No, she said that half of his base deserved to be painted with that broad brush. It made me question which half she believed should be included and how far the splatter flew.

I voted for her, but that, and actions that seemed to make it clear that many of us in the "fly-over" states were just not important to her, put her in the same class of "people who spout things just to get elected." The next Democratic candidate needs to understand that such loose language sticks in the minds of those are neither die-hard reds or blues.
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Old 21st February 2019, 11:59 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
"Oh, Hillary called racists deplorable. I'll show her, by siding with the racists!!"
But, in not making it clear who was included in that list of nasty character traits, she made some feel she was making too wide-spread an assumption. There are Trump supporters who are not included in that statement and, while I fully realize that she made that clear, it was the type of statement that undoubtedly generated a groan within her circle of advisers. And is the type of pronouncement I am arguing needs to be guarded against in the next campaign.

By the way, I never said anyone sided with the racists because of that statement. That was all you.
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Old 21st February 2019, 12:03 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by Elvis666 View Post
But, in not making it clear who was included in that list of nasty character traits, she made some feel she was making too wide-spread an assumption.
She specified exactly who she was talking about. If one didn't consider themselves part of those groups, then they weren't included.

Quote:
By the way, I never said anyone sided with the racists because of that statement. That was all you.
Yes, that's the very obscure literary trick known as "hyperbole".
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Old 21st February 2019, 12:27 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by Elvis666 View Post
But, in not making it clear who was included in that list of nasty character traits, she made some feel she was making too wide-spread an assumption.
I posted the quote. How much clearer did she have to make it?

Incidentally, I am also in flyover country and grew up in a small mid-western towns (with a short stint in Texas). I can't tell you how many times since the election, I've been told that I don't know what it's like in rural America.
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Old 21st February 2019, 12:32 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Incidentally, I am also in flyover country and grew up in a small mid-western towns (with a short stint in Texas). I can't tell you how many times since the election, I've been told that I don't know what it's like in rural America.
I was amused by a Youtuber who claimed that city liberals didn't understand what the "average" American wants, which is odd considering that 63% of Americans live in cities.
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Old 21st February 2019, 12:34 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I posted the quote. How much clearer did she have to make it?

Incidentally, I am also in flyover country and grew up in a small mid-western towns (with a short stint in Texas). I can't tell you how many times since the election, I've been told that I don't know what it's like in rural America.
And there is no such thing as a single Rural America. A small town in Alabams is different then a small town in Kansas which is different then a small town in California.
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Old 21st February 2019, 12:38 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And there is no such thing as a single Rural America. A small town in Alabams is different then a small town in Kansas which is different then a small town in California.
Well, of course they are. But, somehow, because I thought Trump was an idiotic choice for President, my experiences as a midwestern American are not the experiences of a Real Americanô. (Heard that one a lot, too.)
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Old 21st February 2019, 12:43 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by Elvis666 View Post
No, she said that half of his base deserved to be painted with that broad brush. It made me question which half she believed should be included and how far the splatter flew.

I voted for her, but that, and actions that seemed to make it clear that many of us in the "fly-over" states were just not important to her, put her in the same class of "people who spout things just to get elected." The next Democratic candidate needs to understand that such loose language sticks in the minds of those are neither die-hard reds or blues.
That's full of crap. This is such an absurd analysis of what she said. It's people LOOKING to be offended and seizing on anything so they can be. Hillary's remark was hyperbolic to be sure, but the point was Trump was appealing to xenophobia and racism and that is who she was talking about when she called half his supporters deplorables.

Sure, describing 'half' his supporters as deplorables may have been an exaggeration, but it very likely had no effect on anyones vote considering all the awful things Trump said. I'm convinced that anyone who says that turned them against Hillary are being disingenuous.
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Old 21st February 2019, 12:47 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
That's full of crap. This is such an absurd analysis of what she said. It's people LOOKING to be offended and seizing on anything so they can be. Hillary's remark was hyperbolic to be sure, but the point was Trump was appealing to xenophobia and racism and that is who she was talking about when she call half his supporters deplorables.

Sure, describing 'half' his supporters as deplorables may have been an exaggeration, it very likely had no effect on anyones vote considering all the awful things Trump said. I'm convinced that anyone who says that turned them against Hillary are being disingenuous.
Which is all 100% true and 100% beside the point since there's no way to vet voters for disingenuous motivations.

Yeah it would be wonderful if we somehow had a magical "This vote doesn't count because the person casting it is wrong/hypocritical about the main reason they are casting it" machine at every polling station, but we don't.

Votes you lose because the voters aren't being reasonable are still votes you lost.

Politics is the game of still getting those votes and the Democrats acting like they are just too good to play it (usually as an after the fact rationalization for the fact that they just aren't good at it) is not doing them any favors.
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Old 21st February 2019, 12:52 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Votes you lose because the voters aren't being reasonable are still votes you lost.
But did they? Were any votes lost because of her comment? I doubt it, actually.
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Old 21st February 2019, 12:57 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
But did they? Were any votes lost because of her comment? I doubt it, actually.
This.

I live in pretty much the definition of rural America (Arkansas).

There is no one I heard complaining about the deplorable comment that hadn't already been complaining about everything else Hillary beforehand. While they may not have decide to vote Trump, they had already decided they would NOT vote Hillary.

I don't think she lost much from that, it just gave a lot of people who already weren't going to vote for her a thin rationalization.
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Old 21st February 2019, 01:18 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I don't think Joe's take is any more simplistic than the take of "drugs are bad and should be illegal".
That's oversimplified too, obviously it leaves out which drugs under which circumstances should be illegal.

When seatbelts were introduced then later mandated, one didn't argue, so what a lot of people die of heart disease. If they choose not to wear the seatbelt how does that differ from choosing a bad diet?

Joe's argument leaves out a gazillion issues in those drug overdoses.
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Old 21st February 2019, 01:23 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Really?

Here's what she actually said:


You're saying that calling Trump out on pandering to racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic and Islamaphobic people, Clinton put herself on a similar level of undesirableness as the guy who was pandering to racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic and Islamaphobic people?
Yet another case where the news media sold the scandal, Clinton said something bad, and the main media never reported on the real story.

It was the same with the coal jobs comment, the news media left out the next sentence, so we have to create new jobs for them.

I also fault Clinton for doing a poor job of countering the misleading partial statements.
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Old 21st February 2019, 01:27 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
To be fair, I'm not trying to sell anything or talking about a group of people. I'm asking one person how they came to their decision that one quote swung them against Clinton that hard compared to someone like Trump.
I never said that any quote swung me against Clinton, I said it made it more difficult to decide between the two. It was a race between two awful candidates. It is obvious now that one was vastly more so than the other and I feel fortunate that it was not the one for which I voted.

If anyone had told me in 2014 that the Republicans could field a candidate that could cause me to vote for Clinton, I would have found it amusing. I freely admit being one of the many who thought that surely they had more sense than to nominate someone like Trump. I hoped they would quickly come to their senses, but recent events points to doubling down on the stupid.
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Old 21st February 2019, 01:28 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Which is all 100% true and 100% beside the point since there's no way to vet voters for disingenuous motivations.

Yeah it would be wonderful if we somehow had a magical "This vote doesn't count because the person casting it is wrong/hypocritical about the main reason they are casting it" machine at every polling station, but we don't.

Votes you lose because the voters aren't being reasonable are still votes you lost.

Politics is the game of still getting those votes and the Democrats acting like they are just too good to play it (usually as an after the fact rationalization for the fact that they just aren't good at it) is not doing them any favors.
I'm just saying that this remark was irrelevant in regards to their vote. Not that their votes didn't count. Whether Hillary or the Democrats did a competent job appealing to say rural voters is another issue. Or are you saying that she should have been tailoring her remarks to appeal to racists and xenophobes?
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Old 21st February 2019, 01:34 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by Elvis666 View Post
I never said that any quote swung me against Clinton, I said it made it more difficult to decide between the two.
Well, yeah, but why did it make it more difficult to decide?

It was not that broad of a brush to paint with, only the racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic and Islamaphobic people who supported Trump. Although, there does seem to be more of them than I would like to believe possible in this day and age.
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Last edited by Upchurch; 21st February 2019 at 01:36 PM. Reason: i seem to be repeating myself. I need to stop repeating myself.
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Old 21st February 2019, 01:45 PM   #382
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who's to say the deplorable remark didn't actually bring in more votes for Hillary, because said deplorable persons figured by voting for Hillary, they would trash her name by association.




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Old 21st February 2019, 01:59 PM   #383
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Oh, I'm sorry. I thought this was the national emergency thread. My mistake.
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Old 21st February 2019, 02:01 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Oh, I'm sorry. I thought this was the national emergency thread. My mistake.
All roads lead to Hillary, don't you know?
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Old 21st February 2019, 02:04 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
All roads lead to Hillary, don't you know?
If Hillary hadn't lost the election, then Trump wouldn't be in the position where he just had to declare an emergency. Good thing we didn't entrust her with the presidency after that bungle.
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Old 21st February 2019, 02:04 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Oh, I'm sorry. I thought this was the national emergency thread. My mistake.
There is no emergency. What's left to discuss?
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Old 21st February 2019, 02:06 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
All roads lead to Hillary, don't you know?
Unless of course that road has a wall built across it thanks to the state of emergency.
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Old 21st February 2019, 03:52 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yet another case where the news media sold the scandal, Clinton said something bad, and the main media never reported on the real story.

It was the same with the coal jobs comment, the news media left out the next sentence, so we have to create new jobs for them.

I also fault Clinton for doing a poor job of countering the misleading partial statements.

Why would the media that was misleading people by using partial statements made by Hillary give any extra time to her trying to point out the way they misled them.
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Old 21st February 2019, 04:56 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by Elvis666 View Post
I don't see anything ironic about it. That's exactly what happened. But that was for an election where more than one Democrat got to grab a gold ring. When the presidential race heats up, I fear we'll see a repeat of 2016, as 20-plus wannabes vie for the same seat.
You're using examples but they don't necessarily correlate. My comment said, "ironically" because the results in 2018 were counter to your analysis. Fed-up or disgruntled voters were fed-up by Trump and voted (per exit polls) against him.

Now you're saying that a large field means something... defeat? Trump came out of the largest field in recent memory. If your analogies were working, that would mean the outsider firebrand in the Democratic Party will let Kamala, Bernie and Biden split the votes and take pluralities but not majorities in enough early states to take the nomination. Might happen; might not.

I'm not arguing with your underlying causes being issues. I'm arguing that the effects aren't necessarily logical conclusions and thus the analogies aren't working.
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Old 21st February 2019, 05:03 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by gregthehammer View Post
who's to say the deplorable remark didn't actually bring in more votes for Hillary, because said deplorable persons figured by voting for Hillary, they would trash her name by association.




Remember, Trump voters claim they liked to have a candidate who told it like it is and wasn't PC.
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Old 21st February 2019, 05:31 PM   #391
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I keep wondering if wall supporters are bothered at all by Trump's shifting claims on the status of the project. His message started out simple: Build a big, beautiful wall. But it's gotten very complicated (no one knew walls could be so complicated). Now we've got steel slats, replacement projects billed as new and a mishmash of definitions that Trump, or someone, keeps tweeting about. Now, IMO the barrier should be a mishmash - there is no one design that works for 2,000 miles of border - but I wonder if the reality still has the same impact as the symbol he floated to get elected.

I always figured Trump's appeal probably had something to do with not having focus groups and trying to craft some slick message. But his tweets seem more and more stage-managed lately.

Some wall supporters are the same demographic being hit by fentanyl overdoses. Is that fence supposed to keep fentanyl (and the even deadlier carfentanil) out of the country? How? It's full of holes!

Maybe the gullible still believe it will keep the brown hordes from advancing. But they also know they've been lied to - a lot.
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Old 21st February 2019, 05:44 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
This.

I live in pretty much the definition of rural America (Arkansas).

There is no one I heard complaining about the deplorable comment that hadn't already been complaining about everything else Hillary beforehand. While they may not have decide to vote Trump, they had already decided they would NOT vote Hillary.

I don't think she lost much from that, it just gave a lot of people who already weren't going to vote for her a thin rationalization.
Well, one good old boy, Mike Huckabee, certainly played it for what it was worth. The "deplorables" comment was an unfortunate sound byte that the Great Right Wing Noise Machine exploited. It wasn't to appeal to the deplorables. They are already voting their racist-xenophobic-misogynist party line. It was to get the soccer moms in suburbia and exurbia believing that Hillary said that if they were pondering voting for change - the Trump kind- then THEY TOO WERE DEPLORABLES.

The lie was dissected and refuted but as with position papers and debate statements the Dems haven't learned that you have to hammer the bejeezus out of your message. Every time a lying talking head mentioned it, there should've been thirty-seven Dem spokespersons lining up and asking them and the public why the right wing is making up such lies and distortions. Youtube, Twitter, Blimps, Billboards, everything.....
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Old 21st February 2019, 05:54 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Elvis666 View Post
I don't see anything ironic about it. That's exactly what happened. But that was for an election where more than one Democrat got to grab a gold ring. When the presidential race heats up, I fear we'll see a repeat of 2016, as 20-plus wannabes vie for the same seat.
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
You're using examples but they don't necessarily correlate. My comment said, "ironically" because the results in 2018 were counter to your analysis. Fed-up or disgruntled voters were fed-up by Trump and voted (per exit polls) against him.

Now you're saying that a large field means something... defeat? Trump came out of the largest field in recent memory. If your analogies were working, that would mean the outsider firebrand in the Democratic Party will let Kamala, Bernie and Biden split the votes and take pluralities but not majorities in enough early states to take the nomination. Might happen; might not.

I'm not arguing with your underlying causes being issues. I'm arguing that the effects aren't necessarily logical conclusions and thus the analogies aren't working.
I don't get Elviss666's conclusions. I think what we learned in 2018 was the Democrats and Trump made EVERY RACE about him. And Trump lost the vast majority of them.

Comparing the 2016 to the 2018 to the 2020 elections is a huge mistake. How big the field is at this point is meaningless. What matters is the candidate picked and whether he can deliver. Nothing else really matters. That there is a huge Democratic field this time suggests that one hell of a lot of Democrats see a General election they can win if they can capture the nomination.

Normally, if economic conditions are good, the incumbent is almost impossible to beat. But nothing is normal when it comes to Chief Crazy Golden Showers.
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Old 21st February 2019, 05:56 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
I agree that I made an error when I said that Mexico did not control immigration to their territory. At first, they did indeed welcome immigrants. Later, they reversed that position and severely restricted immigration. One of the reasons for that was the fear that they would lose the territory to the new inhabitants. That fear turned out to manifest.

I was also mistaken when I said that Mexican territory became a US territory or they could have voted for allegiance to the US.
Thank you.

Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
However, what is important and still supports my original thesis, is that Mexico lost control of that territory as a result of non-Mexican citizens (Legal Immigrants).
That is important to you, perhaps, but my participation in this thread has been limited to correcting your errors. Whether you believe the true history of Texas supports your thesis is not a matter of interest to me.
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Old 21st February 2019, 06:46 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Remember, Trump voters claim they liked to have a candidate who told it like it is and wasn't PC.
But what they DON'T like is someone telling them that "what it REALLY is" is they are lazy ignorant dole-bludging goobers who shouldn't be allowed out walking without a license. Because that would hurt their feelings...perhaps it would even be politically incorrect.
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Old 21st February 2019, 11:06 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
To be fair, I'm not trying to sell anything or talking about a group of people. I'm asking one person how they came to their decision that one quote swung them against Clinton that hard compared to someone like Trump.
Looking for Mr. Goodbar. Found Mr. Goodbar.

End of story.
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Old 21st February 2019, 11:25 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
There is no emergency. What's left to discuss?
Trump's wagging the 'emergency' dog; the idiots that buy his border fear mongering, wagers on whether his Tweets will convince the Trumper bought SCOTUS justices to go with confirmation biased rationalizations about POTUS powers or use their ******* brains and rule on the obvious abuse of power, and wagers on when the GOP Senators are going to stop supporting the bastard.

And maybe some other stuff.
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Old 21st February 2019, 11:28 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Why would the media that was misleading people by using partial statements made by Hillary give any extra time to her trying to point out the way they misled them.
Of course they wouldn't have on their own. But that doesn't mean Clinton couldn't have influenced the public discussion with influential framing.
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Old 22nd February 2019, 02:22 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by Elvis666 View Post
No, she said that half of his base deserved to be painted with that broad brush. It made me question which half she believed should be included and how far the splatter flew.
If you actually listened to her speech, she was calling the racists, the xenophobes and misogynists deplorable. This fact was lost on most of the public and media, as the conservatives wanted it to. Much like Al Gore invented the internet, her deplorable comment was taken out of context and weaponized. Fortunately, I think most Americans did understand the context at the time, they certainly do now. Trump cultists are deplorable, and this is more evident today than ever.
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Old 22nd February 2019, 05:34 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Well, one good old boy, Mike Huckabee, certainly played it for what it was worth. The "deplorables" comment was an unfortunate sound byte that the Great Right Wing Noise Machine exploited. It wasn't to appeal to the deplorables. They are already voting their racist-xenophobic-misogynist party line. It was to get the soccer moms in suburbia and exurbia believing that Hillary said that if they were pondering voting for change - the Trump kind- then THEY TOO WERE DEPLORABLES.

The lie was dissected and refuted but as with position papers and debate statements the Dems haven't learned that you have to hammer the bejeezus out of your message. Every time a lying talking head mentioned it, there should've been thirty-seven Dem spokespersons lining up and asking them and the public why the right wing is making up such lies and distortions. Youtube, Twitter, Blimps, Billboards, everything.....
The Republican party sure does seem to be much more organized. It's amazing how they all seem to use the same terms and memes, all at the same time. It's almost like there is some sort of terminology playbook that gets sent out to FOX, Limbaugh, the politicians themselves, and every other GOP Pundit.

In contrast, the Dems just don't seem so organized. They don't have a centralized propaganda arm like the Great Right Wing Noise Machine to distribute easy soundbites for the hard of thinking to repeat. There's no Dem version of Reagan's 11th Commandment, either. As such, we just don't get the automatic wagon circling on that side.

I guess it's good that the Dems can think for themselves and be more individual, but it's sure harder to mobilize such people than it is those who can only think in bumper-sticker slogans.
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