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Old 18th October 2018, 02:44 PM   #1361
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
It seems video clips are the only thing you understand, Baylor. Just in case your head exploded at the start of that second one, here is a screenshot from it:

https://i.imgur.com/BLIjPio.jpg
Now I'm wondering how much less likely British police are to be killed by their citizens than American police. Quite a lot, I'd guess.
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Old 18th October 2018, 02:51 PM   #1362
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
But if there's any threat to them or the suspect they run away then congratulate themselves for running away. Then you congratulate them for running away.
Feel free to provide verifiable proof of this happening.
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Old 18th October 2018, 03:44 PM   #1363
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
It's also a what-Mail-readers-reckon issue.

The Mail feeds its readers what they want, which is a constant supply of stuff to be scared of and outraged by, and we shouldn't be too surprised if they come to imagine such biased stuff reflects reality.
As opposed to the moral-fagging and manufactured outrage of your preferred publications.
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Old 18th October 2018, 03:55 PM   #1364
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Which publications would they be?
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Old 18th October 2018, 03:55 PM   #1365
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
As opposed to the moral-fagging and manufactured outrage of your preferred publications.
I'm unsure of your colloquialisms, what does moral-fagging mean?
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Old 18th October 2018, 04:00 PM   #1366
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Well, the English usage of Fag would be a lower school pupil assigned as a personal servant to an Upper School boy at an English Public School.

I have no idea as to what an American would ascribe to the term.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 18th October 2018 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 18th October 2018, 04:30 PM   #1367
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Well, the English usage of Fag would be a lower school pupil assigned as a personal servant to an Upper Cchool boy at an English Public School.

I have no idea as to what an American would ascribe to the term.
It's generally used here as a slur against homosexuals. It's probably Baylor's way of making very clear his position on anyone who's not a straight white American male.
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Old 18th October 2018, 04:46 PM   #1368
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Well, the English usage of Fag would be a lower school pupil assigned as a personal servant to an Upper Cchool boy at an English Public School.

I have no idea as to what an American would ascribe to the term.
Outed. You are Jacob Rees Moggs.
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Old 18th October 2018, 04:55 PM   #1369
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Upper School Boy of course!
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Old 18th October 2018, 05:00 PM   #1370
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Fagging

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 18th October 2018, 05:18 PM   #1371
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Well, the English usage of Fag would be a lower school pupil assigned as a personal servant to an Upper School boy at an English Public School.

I have no idea as to what an American would ascribe to the term.

In my school, all first year pupils were 'fags'.
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Old 18th October 2018, 07:12 PM   #1372
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In 1970s Australia, a fag would be a cigarette. Which is a usage I believe we took from the British.
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Old 19th October 2018, 03:43 AM   #1373
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I don't know about you chaps, but I simply can't survive without having a fag in my mouth at least once a day.
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Old 19th October 2018, 03:51 AM   #1374
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
I don't know about you chaps, but I simply can't survive without having a fag in my mouth at least once a day.
Luckily Iíve never been a smoker, so never had to ask another chap if I could bum a fag.
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Old 19th October 2018, 09:42 AM   #1375
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Now I'm wondering how much less likely British police are to be killed by their citizens than American police. Quite a lot, I'd guess.
According to this site, http://www.policerollofhonour.org.uk/ there were 5 officers killed whilst on duty in 2017.
Four were killed as a result of vehicle incidents and the other was Keith Palmer who was the officer stabbed to death at the Palace of Westminster.

This site states https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/2...low/984477001/ that in the USA 128 were killed, the second lowest total in 50 years, of which 44 had been shot and killed.

According to wikipedia England and Wales has 302 officers per 100,000 people and the US has 284.
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Old 19th October 2018, 10:17 AM   #1376
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Originally Posted by Mr Fied View Post
According to this site, http://www.policerollofhonour.org.uk/ there were 5 officers killed whilst on duty in 2017.
Four were killed as a result of vehicle incidents and the other was Keith Palmer who was the officer stabbed to death at the Palace of Westminster.

This site states https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/2...low/984477001/ that in the USA 128 were killed, the second lowest total in 50 years, of which 44 had been shot and killed.

According to wikipedia England and Wales has 302 officers per 100,000 people and the US has 284.
So just working those figures up a bit. UK has a population of 66 million. The USA has a population of 327 million or pretty much exactly 5 times our. Therefore if the US police died at the same rate as ours they would have had 25 deaths in 2017, whereas they actually has 5 times that number. That's what you get when you allow guns into widespread use in the populace, I guess.

If police in the USA were shot at the same rate as police here, precisely 0 would have been killed (by guns).
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Old 19th October 2018, 11:09 AM   #1377
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And the other side of the coin, from this article https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7507051.html

Quote:
According to justice charity Inquest, a total of 23 people have been killed by police in shootings in England and Wales between 2006 and 2016.

But it is a very different story in the US, where far more police officers are armed.

In 2016 alone, the Washington Post reported 957 deaths caused by police shootings and a community project, killedbypolice, claims six people have already been killed in 2017.
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Old 19th October 2018, 11:22 AM   #1378
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Originally Posted by Mr Fied View Post
And the other side of the coin, from this article https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7507051.html
Yep, we've done this a few times. If the USA police killed their citizens at the same rate as we do in the UK, there would be about 10 or 11 deaths in the whole country in a year. There's 100 times as many as that.
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Old 20th October 2018, 12:23 PM   #1379
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I worked as a security guard in Boston and was then a smoker. I caused consternation when I announced one night that I could murder a fag.
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Old 20th October 2018, 12:33 PM   #1380
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Should have told them you were going to eat some faggots for dinner.
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Old Yesterday, 03:10 AM   #1381
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Edited by zooterkin:  Edit for rule 11. Please raise FM issues in the correct forum.


All right, aren't our police wonderful?

From a book English Justice published in 1932:

Quote:
Many people seem to think that it is dangerous to criticise judges, magistrates or police. Without public criticism institutions, however excellent, become unhealthy and decay. Even if it were desirable to do so, however, it is impossible to hush things up. The mischief is done. What is urgently required is that criticism shall be well informed, and directed to the proper quarters. Diagnosis is needful before remedies are applied

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Old Yesterday, 03:15 AM   #1382
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Edited by zooterkin:  Edit for rule 11. Please raise FM issues in the correct forum.

All right, aren't our police wonderful?

From a book English Justice published in 1932:

Got anything a bit more current? It’s just possible that things might have changed in some way over the last 86 years.

ETA: For example: https://www.lawcom.gov.uk/project/co...ing-the-court/

And: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19204860

Quote:
The offence is a form of contempt of court, but has not been successfully prosecuted since 1931.
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Old Yesterday, 05:18 AM   #1383
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Got anything a bit more current? Itís just possible that things might have changed in some way over the last 86 years.

ETA: For example: https://www.lawcom.gov.uk/project/co...ing-the-court/

And: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19204860
Mind you, it was fairly platitudinous in 1932 and is so today, so in some ways it's remained equally relevant.
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Old Yesterday, 08:00 AM   #1384
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What one policeman says is probably true, what two policemen say may be true, but what three policemen say is never true.
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Old Yesterday, 08:04 AM   #1385
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I think that one of the major reasons why the police make so many mistakes is that the law and procedures are long and complicated, such that we think it obvious that those who defend and prosecute should have specialist degrees, but many police have only basic numeracy and literacy skills.
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Old Yesterday, 08:08 AM   #1386
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Mind you, it was fairly platitudinous in 1932 and is so today, so in some ways it's remained equally relevant.
Unlike this:

Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
What one policeman says is probably true, what two policemen say may be true, but what three policemen say is never true.
Which is just inane.
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Old Yesterday, 08:56 AM   #1387
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Originally Posted by Mr Fied View Post
And the other side of the coin, from this article https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7507051.html
Every 9 minutes a US Police Officer is attacked....
Every 18 minutes a US Police Officer is assaulted with a deadly weapon....
Every 31 minutes a US Police Officer is injured while being assaulted....
Every 1 hour, 8 minutes a US Police Officer is shot at....
Every 8 hours, 45 minutes a US Police Officer kills a civilian....
Every 5 days, 1 hour, 40 minutes a US Police Officer is murdered in the line of duty...
Every 18 days, 8 hours, a US Police Officer shoots and kills an innocent* person.




*For various values of innocent. Most of the people included in this count were committing crimes at or immediately before the shooting. Count only includes shootings done in the line of duty, so does not include Domestic Violence killings, Off Duty self and home defense killings, deaths from Tasers, car accidents, those hit by stray bullets during shoot outs, or general deaths in custody.
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Old Yesterday, 11:06 AM   #1388
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Which never happened, instead the Vatican said it "died with him".
Ironic.
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Old Yesterday, 03:37 PM   #1389
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Every 9 minutes a US Police Officer is attacked....
Every 18 minutes a US Police Officer is assaulted with a deadly weapon....
Every 31 minutes a US Police Officer is injured while being assaulted....
Every 1 hour, 8 minutes a US Police Officer is shot at....
Every 8 hours, 45 minutes a US Police Officer kills a civilian....
Every 5 days, 1 hour, 40 minutes a US Police Officer is murdered in the line of duty...
Every 18 days, 8 hours, a US Police Officer shoots and kills an innocent* person.

*For various values of innocent. Most of the people included in this count were committing crimes at or immediately before the shooting. Count only includes shootings done in the line of duty, so does not include Domestic Violence killings, Off Duty self and home defense killings, deaths from Tasers, car accidents, those hit by stray bullets during shoot outs, or general deaths in custody.
That's quite informative. I wonder what the stats are for Europe (we could use the EU for "Europe") and the OECD sans the US, where both the police and the general population are less trigger happy?
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Old Yesterday, 04:53 PM   #1390
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Every 9 minutes a US Police Officer is attacked....
Every 18 minutes a US Police Officer is assaulted with a deadly weapon....
Every 31 minutes a US Police Officer is injured while being assaulted....
Every 1 hour, 8 minutes a US Police Officer is shot at....
Every 8 hours, 45 minutes a US Police Officer kills a civilian....
Every 5 days, 1 hour, 40 minutes a US Police Officer is murdered in the line of duty...
Every 18 days, 8 hours, a US Police Officer shoots and kills an innocent* person.




*For various values of innocent. Most of the people included in this count were committing crimes at or immediately before the shooting. Count only includes shootings done in the line of duty, so does not include Domestic Violence killings, Off Duty self and home defense killings, deaths from Tasers, car accidents, those hit by stray bullets during shoot outs, or general deaths in custody.
I'm quite impressed that approximately 1 in 3 of attacks on Police Officers results in them being injured. That sees like quite a high success rate. Perhaps they should consider running away more?
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Old Yesterday, 06:23 PM   #1391
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What I have learned from this thread is that police in the UK do a much better job of protecting the public than police in the USA.

The UK police also seem to do a much better job of protecting themselves, with minimal on-the-job injuries and deaths.
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Old Yesterday, 06:58 PM   #1392
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
I'm quite impressed that approximately 1 in 3 of attacks on Police Officers results in them being injured. That sees like quite a high success rate.
I was actually more impressed from a few other things when I was looking up all the stats. Firstly that less than 10% of incidents where a police officer is shot at ends with the shooter being shot dead (I couldn't find a stat for just shot and injured, from what I can tell no one records that information in any way that is publicly accessible. Even for deaths I had to rely on databases such as the Guardian's "The Counted" site.) Secondly, that only around half of the cops attacked with deadly weapons are injured. Got to give kudos to training and protective gear there. When you have to get in close with someone with a weapon, the odds are you are getting hurt, so without the training and protective gear, I'd be expecting a far higher injury and death count.

Quote:
Perhaps they should consider running away more?
Except that they aren't allowed to. If you're a cop you have to run towards the shooting, not away. Look at the flack that the cop got after the Parklands School shooting for waiting for backup and not going in alone. Can you imagine the outcry if the cops fled from an armed suspect who then went on to kill more people, all because they didn't want to be injured?
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Old Yesterday, 07:28 PM   #1393
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
What I have learned from this thread is that police in the UK do a much better job of protecting the public than police in the USA.

The UK police also seem to do a much better job of protecting themselves, with minimal on-the-job injuries and deaths.
The Police in the UK, just like the Police here in New Zealand, and to a degree those in Australia, have a very different job situation to those in the US. In the UK when you do a traffic stop you can practically guarantee that there will not be a gun or other weapon in the car, and on the rare occasion that there is, that the driver and passengers will not respond to your stop by attacking you with it. In the US the second most deadly call out for Officers is traffic stops, with more officers being shot and killed by drivers than any other part of the job with the exception of Domestic Violence call outs.

The fact the killings of Police Officers in places like the UK, and here in NZ, are so rare shows that the police can use other methods and simply for the most part have zero need to defend themselves against guns and knives on a very regular bases. If every hour, a Police Officer somewhere in the UK was being shot at, do you think that the police killings in the UK would still be as low as they are now? I can't even find any stats on how often the British Cops get shot at, just how many shots they have fired!

There is a major training difference too. If a British Cop sees an armed robbery, they are trained to get somewhere safe and call in armed backup to deal with it. In the US the Cop on the spot is trained to deal with the situation him or herself. This is often better for those getting robbed as help arrives a lot faster, but I expect it also increases the odds of someone getting shot.

At the end of the day due to the lack of publicly held weapons, that the general public are less likely to attack an officer (about 1 assault every 22 minutes compared to 8 minutes in the US), the fact that the average UK Police Officer doesn't carry a gun, and a difference in the training of how to responded to armed suspects, really means that comparing UK and US police is like comparing apples and oranges.

For funs we could compare US and South African Police.

In South Africa the police kill ~400 a year, but have just 1/6 the population of the US, meaning that they shoot 2.4x the number of people per capita than US police do.

A South African Police Officer is also 4.3x more likely to be killed on duty than a cop in the US, and there are actually around 1000 more total murders a year in SA than in the US!

The US police shooting fatality rate is not an aberration, it's a direct result of a society that values a right for anyone to carry and use gun, a disrespect for the Police and Authority and a culture of violence, and when we look at other violence and armed societies, we see similar figures as a result.
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Old Yesterday, 07:42 PM   #1394
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
In South Africa the police kill ~400 a year, but have just 1/6 the population of the US, meaning that they shoot 2.4x the number of people per capita than US police do.
I'm not sure that tells the story...the general population isn't really the right denominator to use. It might still show a similar pattern but you would have to look at crime rates to establish the population of 'potential police kills' - after all hopefully the cops aren't just shooting people at random.
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Old Yesterday, 08:28 PM   #1395
PhantomWolf
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I'm not sure that tells the story...the general population isn't really the right denominator to use. It might still show a similar pattern but you would have to look at crime rates to establish the population of 'potential police kills' - after all hopefully the cops aren't just shooting people at random.
Hopefully not, though to listen to some people you'd think it.

The reality is that very nearly everyone that gets shot by the police is engaged in a criminal activity, and most of that activity is attempting to kill someone, be it an officer or someone else.

Yes there are a handful of incidents each year where a totally innocent person who was minding their own business gets shot, and a number more where someone who was committing a crime gets shot when what they were doing didn't require shots being fired, I don't think that anyone disagrees with that, and I don't think anyone would disagree that it would be wonderful to see those shootings even lower. But here's the thing. When the number of 1,000 people a year being killed is pulled out, first off they are adding into that figure all the people that were killed in car accidents involving a police vehicle. They are including all domestic violence killings by a police officer. They are including all off-duty self defense killings by officers. They are including all off-duty criminal killings by officers. They are including all deaths due to complications with Tasers. They are including all deaths in custody regardless of the cause. So it's not actually true that Police Officers shoot 1,000 people a year in the line of duty.

The second thing about the figure is that it's really there for shock value as a weapon against the police, but in doing so it conflates those that were totally innocent with the scum that quite frankly got what they deserved. How do you compare the shooting of a guy standing on his patio with a hose, totally unaware of the police presence, with a guy who is choking out an officer while holding his head underwater? Or a guy that has just stabbed his girlfriend 17 times and is going in the the 18th? Or the guy that just put 15 rounds into an officer using a M-1 rifle? Or the guy with a machete who is so high on drugs and alcohol that tasers don't even phase him and is charging at the officers? Or the driver of a car that swerved to try and deliberately run down an officer who was deploying road spikes? Or a bank robber who is shooting wildly in a crowded street as they try and get away from pursuit?

Yeah there are sad stories in the middle ground too, passengers in the car which the driver used to try and run down cops, a daughter getting hit by a bullet that passed through her father as he pointed a rifle at the cops, a guy with a phone in his hand mistaken for a gun. People that where not really doing anything wrong themselves, but were in the presence of someone that certainly was and they got caught in the crossfire. But the fact is, and reading through things like The Counted it becomes really clear, that for every 1 of the stories of someone that didn't deserve to get shot, there are about 20 or so criminals who were attacking the police or others in an attempt to kill them and getting shot for it.

I think I digressed a bit, and getting back to the initial point. The culture of guns and violence and a lack of respect for Authority bleeds significantly over into criminality. When you have these things, as you do in places like the US and SA, then you have a huge group of people who have a lack of respect for police, are willing to commit crime, and are likely armed while doing it. That leads to armed criminals who are more willing to use violence against the police. With countries where guns and lack of respect are lesser issues we don't see the same levels of violence against Cops, and as a result we don't see the same levels of police shootings, and without those levels of tension and fear, then innocent people are far less likely to be killed by mistake because there is more room for error. In NZ and the UK if you wait a moment to identify that silver flash in a person's hand, you might not shoot a person with a phone, and because guns are so rare you're not likely to be shot, whereas in the US, you wait those extra seconds and it could very likely be you on the slab in the morgue, with your family mourning you. It makes policing in the difference countries something that is just a totally different experience, and not really comparable.

Anyways I think I have waffled on long enough, but hopefully there is a point or two in there somewhere.
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