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Tags protest incidents , Recep Erdogan , US-Turkey relations

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Old 18th May 2017, 02:41 AM   #1
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Does diplomatic immunity cover this...?

Express:'Pro-Erdogan thugs' batter women as they savagely attack Kurdish protestors in Washington

"VIOLENT clashes erupted outside the Turkish ambassadors’ residence in Washington DC after President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s security physically attacked Kurdish protestors.

"Nine people were hurt and two arrests were made during the altercation, which occurred during the controversial Turkish leader’s meeting with Donald Trump at the White House.

The scuffle broke out when the Turkish president’s security attacked protestors carrying the flag of the Kurdish PYD party outside the residence, according to witnesses.

Metropolitan Police Department spokesman Dustin Sternbeck said the brawl erupted between two groups, however, he didn’t specify on the circumstances.

Doug Buchanan, a DC Fire and EMS spokesman, said two of those hurt were seriously injured and were taken to hospitals by ambulance."

The pictures of the besuited security kicking protesters on the ground clearly show these are men used to getting away with violence.

Some reports say that the police, though present, were supposedly "overwhelmed," which seems a bit bizarre.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 18th May 2017 at 02:45 AM.
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Old 18th May 2017, 02:46 AM   #2
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Surely diplomatic immunity trumps the constitution...
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Old 18th May 2017, 02:46 AM   #3
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I'm sure Trump appreciates the strong leadership. I doubt bodyguards have diplomatic immunity.
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Old 18th May 2017, 06:37 AM   #4
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Doesn't really matter, the guards will likely be out of the country before any charges would be brought, and they are not going to be extradited.
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:10 AM   #5
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Those weren't even Turkish nationals. It was REM doing Everybody Hurts.

Last edited by marplots; 18th May 2017 at 07:11 AM.
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Old 19th May 2017, 08:53 AM   #6
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Quote:
That protest ended violently, with pro- and anti-Erdogan sides exchanging blows. Voice of America caught the beginning of the fight.

That footage quickly demonstrated that the physical altercation originated with several men in suits who were at the front edge of the pro-Erdogan crowd on the south side of the circle. In a news conference Wednesday, D.C. police stated that some of those involved were members of Erdogan’s security detail — which the Turkish state news agency Anadolu confirmed. “Police did not heed Turkish demands to intervene,” Anadolu said, as The Post has reported, so the guards moved in to “disperse them.”

The police didn’t “heed” those demands to break up a peaceful protest, of course, because those protests were legal, protected under the First Amendment.

On Thursday afternoon, a new wrinkle: It turns out that Erdogan himself observed the brawl from the driveway of the ambassador’s residence.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...esters-in-d-c/

So how will Trump respond? Well he demand that Erdogan explains what happened or whether he ordered his thugs to beat up peaceful protesters?

Trump has a fantastic opportunity to shore up his "were not going to let other countries push us around" yet if fails to act on something as brutal and brazen as this it's yet another (of countless) example of Trumps failure to even remotely live up to the "strongman" persona he's tried to develop.
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Old 19th May 2017, 09:01 AM   #7
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Trump probably has been kept away from information about this incident. He admires Erdogan's authoritarian bent and would likely personally approve of the Turkish president ordering an attack on the protesters; but on the other hand, allowing a foreign government's goons to attack Americans on US territory certainly seems antithetical to the public image Trump wants to promote of himself.
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Old 19th May 2017, 09:09 AM   #8
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Flynn told Trump what a nice guy Erdogan is, a true friend who will give you $500,000 if you do what he wants.
Can any of the wounded protesters make a better offer?
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Old 19th May 2017, 09:35 AM   #9
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I'm wondering what would have happened if, after the attack of the goons(TM), a skilled protester had, say, dislocated the arm of a goon or perhaps caused him to bleed his own blood.
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Old 19th May 2017, 10:13 AM   #10
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Those weren't just any protestors, they were either Gülenists who seek to overthrow the fair and just President or they were Kurdish terrorists. The peaceful Turkish-Americans were just protecting themselves from violence perpetrated by the protestors.
It's so all so clear, isn't it?
At least that's how it played in the press here for the most part.
Funny how most of those "Turkish-Americans" who were kicking the heads of people on the ground all wore suits and ties and had ID badges round their necks.
The same thing happened at the Brookings Institute in DC last year when Erdoğan's thugs roughed up a few protestors on the sidewalk.
As for the police, there weren't so many because it was a rather small group protesting. I think they did the best they could under the circumstances.
It's just how Erdoğan's security people roll. And this was on Embassy Row in DC. Imagine what happens here.
I'm glad that the State Dept. at least summoned the Turkish ambassador and expressed their dismay at what happened. John McCain even said that the ambassador should be kicked out.
Other than speaking out about it, nothing can or will be done about it.
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Old 20th May 2017, 05:23 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by FenerFan View Post
As for the police, there weren't so many because it was a rather small group protesting. I think they did the best they could under the circumstances.
If I was a sarcastic person, I might wonder why they were so ineffectual, given the propensity of some officers to shoot people at the drop of a hat....
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Old 20th May 2017, 05:28 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
If I was a sarcastic person, I might wonder why they were so ineffectual, given the propensity of some officers to shoot people at the drop of a hat....

Turks probably aren't brown enough.
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Old 20th May 2017, 06:51 AM   #13
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Assuming they had a diplomat stamp, then they can't be charged (though arrested and embarrassed would have been nice.)

They can, however, be kicked out of the country and forbidden to return. Which is no small thing as all these thug-o-crats want to vacation in places like the US as well as keep money here.


The offending country can waive this (IIRC Russia let a drunk high diplomat get charged in the US for killing someone) but I wouldn't hold my breath in this case.
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Old 15th June 2017, 08:54 PM   #14
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The D.C. Police have filed charges. Good for them.

Quote:
A U.S. police decision to file criminal charges against 12 Turkish security guards accused of beating up protesters in Washington, D.C., is further rattling the already-tense relationship between the United States and the Turkish government.

The D.C. metropolitan police announced the charges and arrest warrants on Thursday amid growing outrage among U.S. lawmakers over the May 16 incident. Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan slammed the police move, according to media reports, while the Turkish Foreign Ministry called the U.S. action “unacceptable” and summoned the U.S. ambassador in Ankara to protest.
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...assault-239598
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Old 15th June 2017, 09:00 PM   #15
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This incident aside, official diplomatic immunity includes murder and rape. The person is deported and that's it. It's to stop unethical false charges. Just like embassies are considered to be sovereign spaces.
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Old 15th June 2017, 10:25 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
This incident aside, official diplomatic immunity includes murder and rape. The person is deported and that's it. It's to stop unethical false charges. Just like embassies are considered to be sovereign spaces.
Except they may face criminal charges back home.
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Old 15th June 2017, 10:48 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Except they may face criminal charges back home.
No. They generally cannot face criminal charges back home, because the crime wasn't committed at home.

What can happen in a case where the crime is sufficiently serious and genuine (and it has happened) is that the country of the diplomat who commits such a crime revokes their diplomatic immunity, thus allowing the host country to prosecute.
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Old 15th June 2017, 11:17 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. They generally cannot face criminal charges back home, because the crime wasn't committed at home.
I thought she meant a crime committed on embassy grounds, which is part of the home territory.
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Old 15th June 2017, 11:30 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. They generally cannot face criminal charges back home, because the crime wasn't committed at home.

What can happen in a case where the crime is sufficiently serious and genuine (and it has happened) is that the country of the diplomat who commits such a crime revokes their diplomatic immunity, thus allowing the host country to prosecute.
Hilited: I think you're assuming a very small sub-set of countries, e.g. those tagged with "civilized". I can think of a couple of dozen off the top of my head where the governments and justice systems wouldn't care if the crime was commited in another galaxy. I don't think I'd want to be a Chinese, Thai, North Korean, Russian or Singaporean citizen (just to name a nice cross-section) citizen who did something to put the home team in a bad light. A Chinese businessman caught scamming people might be subject to five years in an American country club white collar prison. In China, he might well be shot. Twice. Once for the crime, another time for causing the government to lose face.
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Old 15th June 2017, 11:33 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I thought she meant a crime committed on embassy grounds, which is part of the home territory.
I was replying to the OP. If said Erdogan security forces had diplomatic immunity (it doesn't look like they did, but I haven't read the details), and had they bashed heads including killing someone, they could not be prosecuted. It sucks and has meant some horrendous crimes went unprosecuted. But it's a tradeoff and protects our diplomats from false charges.

BTW, just because someone is part of a foreign leader's entourage, I'm not sure that automatically confers diplomatic immunity. It's typically applied to embassy staff.

But I could be wrong.

As for facing charges back home, I do believe 'cannot' is the wrong verb. May or may not depending on circumstances, but cannot? No, that would be applying our laws in countries they don't apply in.

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Old 16th June 2017, 03:17 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Hilited: I think you're assuming a very small sub-set of countries, e.g. those tagged with "civilized". I can think of a couple of dozen off the top of my head where the governments and justice systems wouldn't care if the crime was commited in another galaxy.
In that case Norway isn't a civilized country. Among other things, we can be punished for smoking pot or hiring prostitutes abroad, even if it's legal in that country. Or, in fact, if we do it in a different galaxy.
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Old 16th June 2017, 03:36 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Hevneren View Post
In that case Norway isn't a civilized country. Among other things, we can be punished for smoking pot or hiring prostitutes abroad, even if it's legal in that country. Or, in fact, if we do it in a different galaxy.
I was using the term loosely because I didn't want to get into the whole "western democracy" thing. Just being lazy.

(OTOH, have you seen what an Oslo hotel charges for room service breakfast? You don't know whether to order or call your banker to open a Letter of Credit!)
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Old 16th June 2017, 04:50 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
As for facing charges back home, I do believe 'cannot' is the wrong verb. May or may not depending on circumstances, but cannot? No, that would be applying our laws in countries they don't apply in.
The word "generally" allows for exceptions, but I stand by that as the norm.
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Old 16th June 2017, 05:00 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by FenerFan View Post
The D.C. Police have filed charges. Good for them.



http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...assault-239598
This will probably lead nowhere. Even if they are declared guilty by an US court it will not be possible to have the sentence executed as I doubt that Turkey will acknowledge the decision of any US court in the case at hand.

However the next time Erdogan visits the USA he will need to rely on another group of body gards, as these 12 will probably be declared persona non grata in the USA.
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Old 16th June 2017, 05:03 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I was replying to the OP. If said Erdogan security forces had diplomatic immunity (it doesn't look like they did, but I haven't read the details), and had they bashed heads including killing someone, they could not be prosecuted. It sucks and has meant some horrendous crimes went unprosecuted. But it's a tradeoff and protects our diplomats from false charges.

BTW, just because someone is part of a foreign leader's entourage, I'm not sure that automatically confers diplomatic immunity. It's typically applied to embassy staff.
I actually didn't think it would be likely that they did have immunity, but of course there have been cases which hinged on that very point of who is covered and who isn't.
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Old 16th June 2017, 05:12 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by FenerFan View Post
The D.C. Police have filed charges. Good for them.



http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...assault-239598
You're not a terrorist are you, abi?
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Old 16th June 2017, 07:00 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
This will probably lead nowhere. Even if they are declared guilty by an US court it will not be possible to have the sentence executed as I doubt that Turkey will acknowledge the decision of any US court in the case at hand.

However the next time Erdogan visits the USA he will need to rely on another group of body gards, as these 12 will probably be declared persona non grata in the USA.
The "if" in your first paragraph is a big if; US courts are not very keen on in absentia trials. As for the second paragraph, I'd thunk that the US would gladly let them in, whether it's to stand trial or to serve their prison terms.
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Old 16th June 2017, 07:56 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
You're not a terrorist are you, abi?
Aşk olsun dostum. Just doing my part to increase "welfare and peace."
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