ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags flat earth conspiracies

Reply
Old 18th November 2019, 04:29 AM   #41
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,918
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
There ought to be consequences for being wrong about flat earth.
If there were consequences, they'd just choose something else to be defiantly, stubbornly wrong about. Consequence-free contrarianism is its own reward.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 05:05 AM   #42
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
All kinds of research has been done about why people become conspiracy theorists.

The reward of "consequence-free contrarianism" has never been identified as a factor, to my knowledge.

It's all stuff like this:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/ful...63721417718261
Quote:
Belief in conspiracy theories appears to be driven by motives that can be characterized as epistemic (understanding one’s environment), existential (being safe and in control of one’s environment), and social (maintaining a positive image of the self and the social group).

Hating people and wanting to see them punished just for holding false beliefs is kinda weird. Why do people feel that way? I feel bad abut making fun of them sometimes, personally. It's not me being my best self.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan

Last edited by kellyb; 18th November 2019 at 05:31 AM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 07:41 AM   #43
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Sagan was a fan of "consequence-free freethought."

https://www.skeptic.com/reading_room...nd-skepticism/
Quote:
The chief difficulty I see in the skeptical movement is in its polarizations: Us vs. Them — the sense that we [skeptics] have a monopoly on the truth; that those other people who believe in all these stupid doctrines are morons; that if you’re sensible, you’ll listen to us; and if not, you’re beyond redemption. This is unconstructive. It does not get the message across.
Very strange to see "consequences for abuse of free-thought" advocated on a skeptics forum.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 08:52 AM   #44
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 25,033
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Sagan was a fan of "consequence-free freethought."

https://www.skeptic.com/reading_room...nd-skepticism/


Very strange to see "consequences for abuse of free-thought" advocated on a skeptics forum.
True if you think everything contrary is simply a matter of free thought. At some point, though, is there not a dividing line between free thought and delusional foolishness? It seems as if these days one of our problems is that we are obligated to respect every stupid idea that comes around as just another way of looking at things. There is a consequence for abuse of free thought, if it involves physical realities that are immediate. You fall to your death, die of disease, kill your kids, get run over, have a heart attack, get bitten by the snake, mauled by the bear, and so forth, and few would take you to task for telling a person "don't do that, or you'll get killed." But somehow when the consequences are not immediate, idiocy becomes controversy, smoke bombs threaten fire, and we end up endangering the very earth because we must respect even the most flagrant delusions.

I do blame religion for much of this. To varying degrees, adherents of various religions are taught that it is not only permissible, but necessary, to deny the obvious. It's hard to keep that genie in the bottle.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)

Last edited by bruto; 18th November 2019 at 08:54 AM.
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 08:56 AM   #45
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
True if you think everything contrary is simply a matter of free thought. At some point, though, is there not a dividing line between free thought and delusional foolishness? It seems as if these days one of our problems is that we are obligated to respect every stupid idea that comes around as just another way of looking at things. There is a consequence for abuse of free thought, if it involves physical realities that are immediate. You fall to your death, die of disease, kill your kids, get run over, have a heart attack, get bitten by the snake, mauled by the bear, and so forth. But somehow when the consequences are not immediate, idiocy becomes controversy, smoke bombs threaten fire, and we end up endangering the very earth because we must respect even the most flagrant delusions.

I do blame religion for much of this. To varying degrees, adherents of various religions are taught that it is not only permissible, but necessary, to deny the obvious. It's hard to keep that genie in the bottle.
How does flat earth theory hurt anyone, though?

Some broad principle of "you're entitled to be ******* to believers because they're wrong" does not seem morally sound at all, and it's contrary to skepticism and secular western values in general.

If you're going to say irrational beliefs should come with externally imposed consequences, that's kind of the path to totalitarian China, isn't it?
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 09:51 AM   #46
rockysmith76
Muse
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 640
It can't globally on the Flat earth silly, the flatness would impede this. Fake news!
rockysmith76 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 10:22 AM   #47
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,722
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Just a guess, but I think there's a lot of overlap in the Venn diagram.
I wonder what would happen if we added a Holocaust denier set to that diagram.
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 10:53 AM   #48
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,722
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
There are certainly a number of the "Leaders" that clearly know that they are pedaling BS, and others that are trolls, but there are also those that have been sucked into and either don't want to know the truth because it's now their community and they don't want to be excommunicated, or because they simply don't have the education to be able to combat the lies being told to them.
I agree. However, I don't see how any of this contradicts my claim that the majority of flat- Earthers are sincere. Yes, the originators were mostly trolls, who set out to prove they could make the Matrix generation believe virtually anything... if it was packaged correctly. (spoiler alert: they were right). And, of course, there are the inevitable opportunists looking to separate fools from their money. But both of these groups are dwarfed by the rank and file; an army of self absorbed half-wits willing to believe anything that makes them feel important.
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 11:02 AM   #49
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,722
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Some self-identifying skeptics are the same way, just one the other side, and they believe what they believe about the earth's shape because NASA says so, and their teachers told them it was true as kids. They've never put a moment's thought into how to debunk it themselves, but they know people who disagree with them are sheep, or stupid.
Interesting. Virtually the exact same argument promulgated by Holocaust deniers, almost word for word.
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 11:34 AM   #50
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Interesting. Virtually the exact same argument promulgated by Holocaust deniers, almost word for word.
Ha! If you say so, man.

So, you're a skeptic, but you wholly disagree with Sagan here?

Quote:
The chief difficulty I see in the skeptical movement is in its polarizations: Us vs. Them — the sense that we [skeptics] have a monopoly on the truth; that those other people who believe in all these stupid doctrines are morons; that if you’re sensible, you’ll listen to us; and if not, you’re beyond redemption. This is unconstructive. It does not get the message across.
and here:
https://www.brainpickings.org/2016/1...ce-compassion/
Quote:
We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are… Because its explanatory power is so great, once you get the hang of scientific reasoning you’re eager to apply it everywhere. However, in the course of looking deeply within ourselves, we may challenge notions that give comfort before the terrors of the world.
and...
https://www.brainpickings.org/2015/1...nce-democracy/
Quote:
We are constantly prodding, challenging, seeking contradictions or small, persistent residual errors, proposing alternative explanations, encouraging heresy. We give our highest rewards to those who convincingly disprove established beliefs.
Quote:
Finding the occasional straw of truth awash in a great ocean of confusion and bamboozle requires vigilance, dedication, and courage. But if we don’t practice these tough habits of thought, we cannot hope to solve the truly serious problems that face us.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan

Last edited by kellyb; 18th November 2019 at 11:47 AM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 11:53 AM   #51
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 19,594
A poster here used to comment in threads like this that for almost everyone, most of the time, the earth is practically flat.

This was typically followed by the question: what have you done today or even this week that required you to know that the earth was not flat?

For most people the answer is: nothing.

I'm not trying to steal that position, just thought it appropriate to the thread.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 12:06 PM   #52
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
A poster here used to comment in threads like this that for almost everyone, most of the time, the earth is practically flat.

This was typically followed by the question: what have you done today or even this week that required you to know that the earth was not flat?

For most people the answer is: nothing.

I'm not trying to steal that position, just thought it appropriate to the thread.
I'm not really sure where the train of thought is supposed to go from there, or what exactly is being implied.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 12:19 PM   #53
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 22,020
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
There are certainly a number of the "Leaders" that clearly know that they are pedaling BS, and others that are trolls, but there are also those that have been sucked into and either don't want to know the truth because it's now their community and they don't want to be excommunicated, or because they simply don't have the education to be able to combat the lies being told to them.
The Flat Earthers are an extreme case of it, but that's true for all Woo Movements. There's a handful of legit predatory people at the top, some genuinely mentally ill people in the margins, and a lot of sad people who just want to belong filling out the rest.

One of my favorite moments was something Penn Jillette said on the B.S. episode about alien abduction enthusiasts but it holds true for most Woo Slingers. (Language cleaned up for the MA).

Quote:
There's no evidence that these people had any unusual experiences. They're just like all the rest of us with dreams and fantasies. We all need a little attention. That shrink is a scumbag bitch taking money from lonely, sad people in exchange for BS, but the abductees are just people who pathologically need a little attention like... well, like us. You want to stop all this alien BS? Just pay attention to the people around you. Say Hi. Humans are desperate for human contact. Let's not make our fellow travelers spend sixty bucks an hour to some pig-dog to be the center of attention. People shouldn't have to convince themselves they have a reptilian lover in outer space to get a few minutes of your time. P & T are siding with the creeps. We always have. We love them. We are them. There are enough earthly reasons to be interested in each other. The BS just gets in the way.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 12:27 PM   #54
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 25,033
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
How does flat earth theory hurt anyone, though?

Some broad principle of "you're entitled to be ******* to believers because they're wrong" does not seem morally sound at all, and it's contrary to skepticism and secular western values in general.

If you're going to say irrational beliefs should come with externally imposed consequences, that's kind of the path to totalitarian China, isn't it?
Obviously (or so I'd thought) the kind of consequences differ. Flat earth belief hurts no-one as long as it does not result in stupid policies or practices that do hurt someone. Dismal history pretty clearly indicates that it would be wrong and foolish to punish or cause harm to people for their beliefs, but I think it equally wrong to suggest that we may not criticize them, or that we must accept them even if they do result in negative consequences. A flat earther is pretty harmless bloviating on the internet. A bit more harmful if he teaches his children with false ideas. A bit more harmful if he is hired by a university to teach astronomy. Those are all consequences of his belief. It would be wrong to burn him at the stake, but would it be wrong to call him a fool? Wrong to consider him unqualified to teach science? Those are all consequences imposed for his belief.

I suspect we're now seeing some of the result of the idea that everything is an opinion, all opinions deserve respect, and reality is malleable.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 01:27 PM   #55
CORed
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 9,189
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
A poster here used to comment in threads like this that for almost everyone, most of the time, the earth is practically flat.

This was typically followed by the question: what have you done today or even this week that required you to know that the earth was not flat?

For most people the answer is: nothing.

I'm not trying to steal that position, just thought it appropriate to the thread.
It's a valid point. However, as an avid watcher of sunrises and sunsets, every time I see the clouds turn orange with filtered sunlight reflecting of their bottom side, as the shadow of the earth moves up or down opposite the sun, I know it's round. Flat earthers, despite some vague handwaving about perspective, refraction and the "spotlight sun", utterly fail to account for what can be seen twice on every clear day.
CORed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 01:34 PM   #56
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 22,020
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
A poster here used to comment in threads like this that for almost everyone, most of the time, the earth is practically flat.

This was typically followed by the question: what have you done today or even this week that required you to know that the earth was not flat?

For most people the answer is: nothing.

I'm not trying to steal that position, just thought it appropriate to the thread.
Ah yes the "Sherlock Holmes Argument."

"Not knowing" is one thing. I disagree that it's in anyway excusable for a sane person living in 2019, but it's a far cry from actively joining a movement to argue against it.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 01:49 PM   #57
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Obviously (or so I'd thought) the kind of consequences differ. Flat earth belief hurts no-one as long as it does not result in stupid policies or practices that do hurt someone. Dismal history pretty clearly indicates that it would be wrong and foolish to punish or cause harm to people for their beliefs, but I think it equally wrong to suggest that we may not criticize them, or that we must accept them even if they do result in negative consequences. A flat earther is pretty harmless bloviating on the internet. A bit more harmful if he teaches his children with false ideas. A bit more harmful if he is hired by a university to teach astronomy. Those are all consequences of his belief. It would be wrong to burn him at the stake, but would it be wrong to call him a fool? Wrong to consider him unqualified to teach science? Those are all consequences imposed for his belief.

I suspect we're now seeing some of the result of the idea that everything is an opinion, all opinions deserve respect, and reality is malleable.
Honestly, even calling him names is counterproductive. That's how you get Trump supporters.

Do you think parents should be prohibited from teaching their kids their religion, or should we move to the Chinese system?
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 01:50 PM   #58
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Ah yes the "Sherlock Holmes Argument."

"Not knowing" is one thing. I disagree that it's in anyway excusable for a sane person living in 2019, but it's a far cry from actively joining a movement to argue against it.
What are you referring to?
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 01:51 PM   #59
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 22,020
We can have intellectual standards without jackbooted thugs kicked your door in at the middle of the night and dragging your kids off to camps to be re-educated.

There's no law that says saying, thinking, promoting, or walking outside picketing with a sign that says "2+2=5" is illegal. You can't be arrested for it, you can't be jailed for it, you won't be deported for it.

But you just wouldn't function in society for long with that opinion because nobody would be making excuses for you or making you being wrong easier on you.

That's all we need to do.

Being wrong shouldn't be illegal. What it should be is difficult.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 01:52 PM   #60
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The Flat Earthers are an extreme case of it, but that's true for all Woo Movements. There's a handful of legit predatory people at the top, some genuinely mentally ill people in the margins, and a lot of sad people who just want to belong filling out the rest.

One of my favorite moments was something Penn Jillette said on the B.S. episode about alien abduction enthusiasts but it holds true for most Woo Slingers. (Language cleaned up for the MA).
"UFOlogists" aren't like that.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 01:53 PM   #61
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
We can have intellectual standards without jackbooted thugs kicked your door in at the middle of the night and dragging your kids off to camps to be re-educated.

There's no law that says saying, thinking, promoting, or walking outside picketing with a sign that says "2+2=5" is illegal. You can't be arrested for it, you can't be jailed for it, you won't be deported for it.

But you just wouldn't function in society for long with that opinion because nobody would be making excuses for you or making you being wrong easier on you.

That's all we need to do.

Being wrong shouldn't be illegal. What it should be is difficult.
Yeah, that's absolutely intellectual totalitarianism you're advocating. That scares the bejezzus out of me.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 01:57 PM   #62
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Obviously (or so I'd thought) the kind of consequences differ. Flat earth belief hurts no-one as long as it does not result in stupid policies or practices that do hurt someone.
I really think y'all are hurting people. YOU. You act in abusive ways towards them and it's just going to make them weirder. You're advocating objectively anti-social behavior.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 01:58 PM   #63
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 22,020
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Yeah, that's absolutely intellectual totalitarianism you're advocating. That scares the bejezzus out of me.
"Intellectual totalitarianism." Is that what we're calling anti-intellectualism these days?

And this is why Flat Eartherism exist. Because people see some stupid, "Lookit at me go against the grain, swimming up stream, dancing to my own drum" value in being wrong as if factual correctness is a form of Fascism.

This isn't intellectual freedom it's childish "You can't tell me what to do"ism. This is poking yourself in the eye with a sharp stick just to take that uppity person who said "Poking yourself in the eye with a sharp" down a notch because who the hell does he think he is to tell you what to do...
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 02:02 PM   #64
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 22,020
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I really think y'all are hurting people. YOU. You act in abusive ways towards them and it's just going to make them weirder. You're advocating objectively anti-social behavior.
Only if you live in a naive dreamworld where being factually wrong has no consequences.

Civility stopped being a thing when people decided being civil removed any onus on them to be right.

Since it's the comparison you've landed on, that is why every 3 second we have a Trumper demanding we a "civil discussion with them" about something that's already been settled.

The idea that anyone could look at our current landscape and argue that "too much intellectual standards" is the problem we are having is insane.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 02:07 PM   #65
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Do you ever wonder if maybe you're being a little sociopathic?
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 02:07 PM   #66
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 25,033
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Honestly, even calling him names is counterproductive. That's how you get Trump supporters.

Do you think parents should be prohibited from teaching their kids their religion, or should we move to the Chinese system?
I never said that people should be prohibited from teaching their kids their religion, and don't believe so, nor should we butt into people's lives and tell them their ideas are wrong when they're minding their own business. But I do believe we should reserve the right to oppose them when they're minding ours.

We seem to be in a double bind, where it's outré to criticize those who make it their business to criticize us. To pretend that plain error renders fact controversial, to let crackpots pollute our world, marginalize our friends, threaten epidemics, endanger the world itself, through their ideas.

Sure flat-earthers are basically harmless kooks and fools, but all those I've seen have also relied for their arguments on conspiracies that require the explicit and vociferous bad-mouthing of those who disagree with them. They call us fools, sheep, dupes. And it seems we, to stay pure, must respond with, "well, I respectfully disagree."
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 02:08 PM   #67
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 22,020
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Do you ever wonder if maybe you're being a little sociopathic?
Listen. I'm 40 years old. I've heard every possible version, of every possible argument form every possible angle from people making a new variation on trying to get "Telling people they are wrong is mean" to stick.

You ain't going to be the one.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 18th November 2019 at 02:09 PM.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 02:09 PM   #68
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
 
Hellbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 14,087
Yea, I can't see how this is any sort of totalitarianism, either.

To extend Joe's example, If you believe 2+2=5, great, that's fine. But if you try to pay for your $5 happy meal with 2 $2 bills, I'm going to have you charged with theft when you walk out of the restaurant, belief not-withstanding.

A belief, no matter how sincere, doesn't free you from any potential consequences of having that wrong belief, and no one is obligated to protect you from the consequences. Arguing that is just...insane.
__________________
History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell
Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 02:15 PM   #69
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
What do you call this bullying behavior? You you call it "education" or something?
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 02:17 PM   #70
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Listen. I'm 40 years old. I've heard every possible version, of every possible argument form every possible angle from people making a new variation on trying to get "Telling people they are wrong is mean" to stick.

You ain't going to be the one.
At no point did I say disagreeing with people was wrong. What you're doing is purely motivated by sadism, though.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 02:20 PM   #71
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 22,020
And that's what I mean when I call Flat Eartherism an anti-intellectual performance piece.

That's why I didn't get engaged in the "Do they literally, intellectually, honestly believe it is true or not?" question. Because I think not only is that not the question we should be asking but it doesn't even apply, not really anyway. Because the factual accuracy of the statement isn't important to them, it's holding opinion that other people disagree with.

Look how strongly, almost violently people react to other people telling them they are wrong. It transcends the actual wrongness and becomes some personal affront, this "How dare this person tell me what to think?" rage affect.

See? We're one page in and the screaming already has nothing to do with the fact that the shape of the Earth is not up for debate in any way, shape or form.

It's not opinion. Those are intellectual. It's a persona.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 02:21 PM   #72
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 22,020
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
At no point did I say disagreeing with people was wrong. What you're doing is purely motivated by sadism, though.
Okay... I'm not doing your game. Believe whatever you want. That is, it seems for you, the point.

All you're doing is proving my point.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 02:22 PM   #73
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I never said that people should be prohibited from teaching their kids their religion, and don't believe so, nor should we butt into people's lives and tell them their ideas are wrong when they're minding their own business. But I do believe we should reserve the right to oppose them when they're minding ours.

We seem to be in a double bind, where it's outré to criticize those who make it their business to criticize us. To pretend that plain error renders fact controversial, to let crackpots pollute our world, marginalize our friends, threaten epidemics, endanger the world itself, through their ideas.

Sure flat-earthers are basically harmless kooks and fools, but all those I've seen have also relied for their arguments on conspiracies that require the explicit and vociferous bad-mouthing of those who disagree with them. They call us fools, sheep, dupes. And it seems we, to stay pure, must respond with, "well, I respectfully disagree."
I know you can come up with excuses for feeling entitled to be the WrongThink police, but it's just that. Excuses. There is no justification for this.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 02:24 PM   #74
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
How did y'all come across the word "skepticism" to describe yourselves?

You know Carl Sagan would be horrified by you, right? But Sagan's skepticism is for pussies or something?
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 02:26 PM   #75
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 22,020
Ah "One True Skeptic Card." I'm surprised it took this long.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 02:28 PM   #76
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Where did y'all organize out of? How did you get from whatever you were doing before being buttholes to believers, to here?
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 02:29 PM   #77
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Ah "One True Skeptic Card." I'm surprised it took this long.
When did you realize you were a "skeptic", Joe? How did you land in this forum?
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 02:30 PM   #78
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 22,020
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Where did y'all organize out of?
What does that even mean?

This isn't the first discussion where you seem incapable of or unwilling to argue against an individual and instead demand they tell what group they belong to so instead you can argue against that.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 02:31 PM   #79
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 22,020
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
When did you realize you were a "skeptic", Joe? How did you land in this forum?
Again I'm not interested in yet another of your multi-page attempts to argue the semantics of what group someone belongs to instead of making an adult, rational argument.

Play your games with someone else.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 02:31 PM   #80
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What does that even mean?

This isn't the first discussion where you seem incapable of or unwilling to argue against an individual and instead demand they tell what group they belong to so instead you can argue against that.
How do you justify what you do as "skepticism"?
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:39 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.