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Old Yesterday, 10:37 AM   #601
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Oh, for God's sake, I labeled it NIMBY because it is a literal case of "Not In My Back Yard". I was explicitly not using NIMBY in the traditional, pejorative sense.

Give it a rest. Save your righteous indignation for appropriate targets.

ETA: Of course location is not the only problem. Duh. There are many good reasons for opposing Trump's wall. I have said so repeatedly, though not in the post that pulled your hair trigger because that post was just a simple, innocent observation that land owners are objecting, in part, to the construction of a wall on their property, loosely, their back yards.
Whatever.
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Old Yesterday, 10:38 AM   #602
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//DEVIL'S ADVOCATE

You can say your not for open borders all you want, but if "closed" borders that are basically only closed on the honor system are "open" in all but pedantics.

DEVIL'S ADVOCATE//

Now back to the real world a sane border control policy would not be rejected by the Dems. Increased patrols, sensor networks, better training for border control agents, even limited physical barriers in some locations, stuff like that I'm sure could be put on the table for at least valid consideration and discussion.
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Old Yesterday, 10:52 AM   #603
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I was appalled that Democratic Representative Gutierrez was for open borders. I believe he is the only one I saw with that POV.

Obviously it is not the common view of the Democrats but the right-wing, including Trump, have been repeating the lie so often they believe it no matter how many times it is refuted.
I was not aware of Gutierrez, who retired in 2018. I Googled his name + "open borders" and found only links to right wing sites that I didn't read, since I thought they may quote him out of context. His WP page doesn't contain the phrase "open borders", but says that in 2009 he introduced a bill involving improved border security, so I still haven't found evidence of his position on this. Got any handy sources?
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Old Yesterday, 10:54 AM   #604
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I was not aware of Gutierrez, who retired in 2018. I Googled his name + "open borders" and found only links to right wing sites that I didn't read, since I thought they may quote him out of context. His WP page doesn't contain the phrase "open borders", but says that in 2009 he introduced a bill involving improved border security, so I still haven't found evidence of his position on this. Got any handy sources?
I saw him clearly state it himself when he was walking or marching with a small group of Hispanics.
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Old Yesterday, 03:52 PM   #605
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You don't disagree but you still labeled it NIMBY.

I don't think NIMBY is the issue. That implies it is only the location that is the problem: yes we need a wall, just not here.

1600 Pennsylvania Ave. seems like a good spot. We can protect the country from one of its worst threats, and BONUS ... the government already owns the property.
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Old Today, 12:30 AM   #606
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I was not aware of Gutierrez, who retired in 2018. I Googled his name + "open borders" and found only links to right wing sites that I didn't read, since I thought they may quote him out of context. His WP page doesn't contain the phrase "open borders", but says that in 2009 he introduced a bill involving improved border security, so I still haven't found evidence of his position on this. Got any handy sources?
Being quoted out of context does happen a lot these days.

Chris B.
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Old Today, 03:08 AM   #607
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Why can't we secure the border to ensure no more illegal crossings.
Declare Amnesty for those illegals who have been here 10+ years and have been law abiding (other than by coming/working here illegally).
Let them apply for citizenship and grant them citizenship. Let's welcome them to their new civic duty of paying income taxes.
They really should pay some sort of fine for not paying income tax for those 10 years they were here if they were working.

For those who have been here less than 10 years, send them back out and let them come in again legally (provided these folks are not criminals with records of course).

Chris B.
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Old Today, 03:35 AM   #608
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Declare Amnesty for those illegals who have been here 10+ years and have been law abiding (other than by coming/working here illegally).

You mean people like Melanija Knavs?

Quote:
Let them apply for citizenship and grant them citizenship.

I think that she already did.

Quote:
Let's welcome them to their new civic duty of paying income taxes.

I'm not sure that the members of that family do that.
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Old Today, 04:02 AM   #609
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Why can't we secure the border to ensure no more illegal crossings.
No one in this thread says we can't.

We are saying two things: (1) The wall is an inefficient way of doing so (and is really being pushed for purely political advantage) and (2) Congress considered funding the wall and said no and at this point, a National Emergency is not at all warranted by the circumstances.

Stop pretending that either one is in favor of the Emergency declaration or one wants open borders. There's a reason that some Republicans voted for the wall but against the emergency declaration. (The name of the fallacy you are applying here is "false dichotomy".)
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Old Today, 04:04 AM   #610
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Declare Amnesty for those illegals who have been here 10+ years and have been law abiding (other than by coming/working here illegally).
Let them apply for citizenship and grant them citizenship. Let's welcome them to their new civic duty of paying income taxes.
They really should pay some sort of fine for not paying income tax for those 10 years they were here if they were working.
This part should perhaps be directed at the Republicans. It is not what Trump has suggested.

It would make a better case for enhance security at the border perhaps. It does not make a wall the best use of funds.
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Old Today, 04:25 AM   #611
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Why can't we secure the border to ensure no more illegal crossings.
Why can't we do it with anything other than a dumb wall?
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Old Today, 04:30 AM   #612
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
No one in this thread says we can't.

We are saying two things: (1) The wall is an inefficient way of doing so (and is really being pushed for purely political advantage) and (2) Congress considered funding the wall and said no and at this point, a National Emergency is not at all warranted by the circumstances.

Stop pretending that either one is in favor of the Emergency declaration or one wants open borders. There's a reason that some Republicans voted for the wall but against the emergency declaration. (The name of the fallacy you are applying here is "false dichotomy".)
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
This part should perhaps be directed at the Republicans. It is not what Trump has suggested.

It would make a better case for enhance security at the border perhaps. It does not make a wall the best use of funds.
I don't think we're going to see anything to help illegal immigrants in this Country until the border is secure.

This problem has been ignored by all parties. It's time something is done and if that means declaring a National Emergency I'm all for it. And once the border has been secured I expect to see some Immigration reform.

Political parties aside I'm sick of hearing promises to deal with immigration by all sides yet nothing gets done. It's a disgrace.

Chris B.
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Old Today, 04:38 AM   #613
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Why can't we do it with anything other than a dumb wall?
What do you suggest? Mine fields?

Chris B.
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Old Today, 04:47 AM   #614
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
What do you suggest? Mine fields?
Have you not read this thread or other discussions about this issue? If not, why pretend like you have any sort of knowledge about it? You don't come off very well doing that.
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Old Today, 05:36 AM   #615
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Have you not read this thread or other discussions about this issue? If not, why pretend like you have any sort of knowledge about it? You don't come off very well doing that.
I've read this thread and suggest you do so as well. This thread is mainly a lot of bellyaching about Trump's wall with no discussion of another method to keep illegals from crossing our border. (I do remember seeing one post suggesting a fence patrolled by tigers, but that must have been a joke.)

Instead of complaining about the National Emergency, why not use some of that vast gray matter to come up with an alternative that would prevent illegals from crossing our borders.

If building a wall won't work, what will?
I want the immigration crisis solved. Do you?
I want secure borders that prevent illegal crossings. Do you?
I want a path to citizenship for current illegals. Do you?

I realize these opinions from a Trump supporter may seem uncomfortable for you but there's really no need to be insulting. I'm all for discussion of the problems as I'd like to see them solved.

Chris B.
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Old Today, 05:41 AM   #616
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
I've read this thread and suggest you do so as well.
Been there, done that.

Quote:
This thread is mainly a lot of bellyaching about Trump's wall with no discussion of another method to keep illegals from crossing our border.
Yeah because the heavy lifting's already been done.

Quote:
If building a wall won't work, what will?
I told you to read the thread. There are alternatives to patrol the border that don't involve a stupid, ineffective and expensive wall that'll have to be perpetually manned.
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Old Today, 05:53 AM   #617
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Been there, done that.



Yeah because the heavy lifting's already been done.



I told you to read the thread. There are alternatives to patrol the border that don't involve a stupid, ineffective and expensive wall that'll have to be perpetually manned.
That's fine. It would seem you don't wish to have a conversation on other methods that could be used to prevent illegal border crossings other than a wall. I will take that as a silent confirmation that building a border wall is the right thing to do.

Chris B.
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Old Today, 06:05 AM   #618
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
That's fine. It would seem you don't wish to have a conversation on other methods that could be used to prevent illegal border crossings other than a wall. I will take that as a silent confirmation that building a border wall is the right thing to do.
That's tremendously dishonest of you, but I didn't expect anything else given your unwillingness to educate yourself on this issue.

The reason why I'm unwilling to discuss this further is the same reason why I won't start from scratch the next time a truther shows up to start yet another 9-11 thread. At some point it's no use playing whack-a-mole with those who won't learn or listen.
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Old Today, 06:09 AM   #619
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
I
I want secure borders that prevent illegal crossings. Do you?
.
I do not
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Old Today, 06:14 AM   #620
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Ah, we found one.
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Old Today, 06:46 AM   #621
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Why can't we secure the border to ensure no more illegal crossings.
...
For about the same reasons we can't secure our cities, towns and villages to ensure no more illegal killings, or illegal anything.
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Old Today, 06:49 AM   #622
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1. Most illegal immigrants don't "cross the border." They come legally into the country on temporary work or travel Visas or similar arraignments and then just don't leave.

2. Point 1 is such common knowledge that has been pointed out so many times it you don't get it its because you are choosing to remain willfully ignorant.
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Old Today, 06:49 AM   #623
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I do not
Nor do I. Belz, you found another
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Old Today, 06:56 AM   #624
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
That's fine. It would seem you don't wish to have a conversation on other methods that could be used to prevent illegal border crossings other than a wall. I will take that as a silent confirmation that building a border wall is the right thing to do.
What a truly moronic thing to write. It isn't even a semi-respectable gotcha, it's just plain infantile.
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Old Today, 07:10 AM   #625
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Nor do I. Belz, you found another
I might actually get an answer from #2 here.

Why would you not want to stop illegal immigration at all?
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Old Today, 07:11 AM   #626
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
I've read this thread and suggest you do so as well. This thread is mainly a lot of bellyaching about Trump's wall with no discussion of another method to keep illegals from crossing our border. (I do remember seeing one post suggesting a fence patrolled by tigers, but that must have been a joke.)

Instead of complaining about the National Emergency, why not use some of that vast gray matter to come up with an alternative that would prevent illegals from crossing our borders.

If building a wall won't work, what will?
I want the immigration crisis solved. Do you?
I want secure borders that prevent illegal crossings. Do you?
I want a path to citizenship for current illegals. Do you?

I realize these opinions from a Trump supporter may seem uncomfortable for you but there's really no need to be insulting. I'm all for discussion of the problems as I'd like to see them solved.

Chris B.
Do you REALLY want the crisis solved?
Because it is dead easy to do. And it doesn't require a wall.
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Old Today, 07:13 AM   #627
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
I don't think we're going to see anything to help illegal immigrants in this Country until the border is secure.

This problem has been ignored by all parties. It's time something is done and if that means declaring a National Emergency I'm all for it. And once the border has been secured I expect to see some Immigration reform.

Political parties aside I'm sick of hearing promises to deal with immigration by all sides yet nothing gets done. It's a disgrace.

Chris B.

So you're not concerned that Congress has already denied the funds for this (vanity) project? Screw 'em. Trump can just take charge and declare an emergency.

And, were a Democratic president to declare an emergency in similar conditions, you'd not complain about executive overreach. You might dislike the outcome, but you know, it's the prerogative of the President.

Is that your position?
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Old Today, 07:15 AM   #628
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
What do you suggest? Mine fields?

Chris B.
Increasing the number of agents at the border, the technology used and increasing the number of judges who can hear asylum cases so that they can be processed in a timely manner and people can move through the system legally without waiting for years at the border?

And, dare I say it, some additional fencing at areas which are carefully selected based on research and experience, rather than a fanciful wall that is built without the benefit of careful thought.
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Old Today, 07:20 AM   #629
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Increasing the number of agents at the border, the technology used and increasing the number of judges who can hear asylum cases so that they can be processed in a timely manner and people can move through the system legally without waiting for years at the border?

And, dare I say it, some additional fencing at areas which are carefully selected based on research and experience, rather than a fanciful wall that is built without the benefit of careful thought.
Clearly you want open borders!!
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Old Today, 07:36 AM   #630
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I might actually get an answer from #2 here.



Why would you not want to stop illegal immigration at all?
For the same reasons I don't want anyone to actually propose to get rid of murder, rape or jay-walking: it's an unobtainable goal, and at some point, the increases in the state's grip on power and money no longer justify the decrease in crime.

I personally find the rates of murder, theft and jaywalking in my corner of the world quite acceptle. "Less" of course would always be "better", all else being equal, but all else is not equal if you spend additional money on intrusive measures. There is no murder crisis here.

Now, I do not really have an opinion on whether illegal immigration across the souther border of the USA constitutes a "crisis" (I don't live there, and am not American), but sense that many Americans don't think so. And anyway, it will never be "solved" to everybody's satisfaction.

This is genuinly a matter of political opinion and political majorities. The problem to be solved is not "illegal immigration", but what levels with which hooks and loops and quirks ends up being low enough to be accepted by enough of the voting population. A presidential decleration of "emergency" is exactly the wrong way to approach this. It' s a totally arbitrary decision, and the stated "problem" cannot possibly be solved that way.
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Old Today, 07:50 AM   #631
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
For the same reasons I don't want anyone to actually propose to get rid of murder, rape or jay-walking: it's an unobtainable goal, and at some point, the increases in the state's grip on power and money no longer justify the decrease in crime.
Come on, Oystein. Do you really think that's a reasonable answer? We still want to eliminate murder, even though we know we'll never attain the goal. It gives us an incentive to fight back against it and limit it as much as reasonably possible. Same for all other undesirable things, including illegal immigration. That's what we're talking about, and it's insulting that you're trying to pretend otherwise.

Bob said that he doesn't want to prevent illegal crossings. At all. You said you agreed. If that's not what you meant, you might want to be more careful what you agree to.
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Old Today, 11:49 AM   #632
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Why can't we do it with anything other than a dumb wall?
What do you suggest? Mine fields?

Chris B.

There isn't anything you can imagine aside from dumb walls and minefields which might address the problem? Even after all the discussion in this and other threads?

I suggest that you aren't trying very hard. Or looking very hard, either.
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Old Today, 11:58 AM   #633
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
For the same reasons I don't want anyone to actually propose to get rid of murder, rape or jay-walking: it's an unobtainable goal, and at some point, the increases in the state's grip on power and money no longer justify the decrease in crime.

I personally find the rates of murder, theft and jaywalking in my corner of the world quite acceptle. "Less" of course would always be "better", all else being equal, but all else is not equal if you spend additional money on intrusive measures. There is no murder crisis here.

Now, I do not really have an opinion on whether illegal immigration across the souther border of the USA constitutes a "crisis" (I don't live there, and am not American), but sense that many Americans don't think so. And anyway, it will never be "solved" to everybody's satisfaction.

This is genuinly a matter of political opinion and political majorities. The problem to be solved is not "illegal immigration", but what levels with which hooks and loops and quirks ends up being low enough to be accepted by enough of the voting population. A presidential decleration of "emergency" is exactly the wrong way to approach this. It' s a totally arbitrary decision, and the stated "problem" cannot possibly be solved that way.
I don't think this twisted nuance is going to go over well in this thread.
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Old Today, 12:28 PM   #634
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Come on, Oystein. Do you really think that's a reasonable answer? We still want to eliminate murder, even though we know we'll never attain the goal. It gives us an incentive to fight back against it and limit it as much as reasonably possible. Same for all other undesirable things, including illegal immigration. That's what we're talking about, and it's insulting that you're trying to pretend otherwise.



Bob said that he doesn't want to prevent illegal crossings. At all. You said you agreed. If that's not what you meant, you might want to be more careful what you agree to.
That's not what Bob and I disagreed with. We disagreed with this: "I want secure borders that prevent illegal crossings. Do you?"
I took this to mean "all" illegal crossings, for the borders, as they are already prevent "some" illegal crossings, and you surely did not mean to express that you are fine with the status quo.

Illegal border crossings are vastly more tolerable than murder or rape, and I think there is no border crisis that justifies the drastic and expensive measures proposed, especially seeing their limited effectiveness.
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Old Today, 12:36 PM   #635
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
That's not what Bob and I disagreed with. We disagreed with this: "I want secure borders that prevent illegal crossings. Do you?"
I took this to mean "all" illegal crossings, for the borders, as they are already prevent "some" illegal crossings, and you surely did not mean to express that you are fine with the status quo.

Illegal border crossings are vastly more tolerable than murder or rape, and I think there is no border crisis that justifies the drastic and expensive measures proposed, especially seeing their limited effectiveness.
Well because like Bob, for some reason you saw the need to answer a simple question with a broad to the point of being meaningless philosophical truism.
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Old Today, 01:24 PM   #636
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
That's not what Bob and I disagreed with. We disagreed with this: "I want secure borders that prevent illegal crossings. Do you?"
I took this to mean "all" illegal crossings, for the borders, as they are already prevent "some" illegal crossings, and you surely did not mean to express that you are fine with the status quo.

Illegal border crossings are vastly more tolerable than murder or rape, and I think there is no border crisis that justifies the drastic and expensive measures proposed, especially seeing their limited effectiveness.
I'm sorry, none of that makes any sense. Why did you take such an unreasonable interpretation of that sentence as a starting point? ChrisBFRPKY asked the question you quoted above. Obviously he's not asking whether we should make it our ultimate and all-encompassing goal to stop every single instance of illegal immigration, bringing the problem to exactly zero before we move on to any other problem. None of that bears any ressemblance to his question.
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Old Today, 02:22 PM   #637
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm sorry, none of that makes any sense. Why did you take such an unreasonable interpretation of that sentence as a starting point? ChrisBFRPKY asked the question you quoted above. Obviously he's not asking whether we should make it our ultimate and all-encompassing goal to stop every single instance of illegal immigration, bringing the problem to exactly zero before we move on to any other problem. None of that bears any ressemblance to his question.
His question was loaded, and we seem to disagree on what it was loaded with.

Can you make explicit what loading you assume on the question?
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Old Today, 02:40 PM   #638
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
His question was loaded, and we seem to disagree on what it was loaded with.
I say bacon. You?

Quote:
Can you make explicit what loading you assume on the question?
Sure. He said he wanted secure borders that prevent illegal crossings. I think that's pretty clear, no ulterior motive required.
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Old Today, 03:43 PM   #639
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I say bacon. You?







Sure. He said he wanted secure borders that prevent illegal crossings. I think that's pretty clear, no ulterior motive required.
This assumes that borders currently are not secure, assumes borders can be made secure (absolutely, or to undefined, arbitrary degree), assumes that borders currently do not prevent illegal crossings (absolutely, or to some unspecified and arbitrary standard), and assumes that borders can be made to prevent illegal crossings (again either absolutely all of them, or enough according to an unspecified and arbitrary standard.

This question was so loaded, so vague, such terrible ******** that any intelligent person HAS to disagree.
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