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Old 16th April 2023, 06:25 PM   #1
AlaskaBushPilot
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Beating Government School Age Discrimination

Parents of kids who are far more advanced than their peers discover that school systems generally discriminate against them by forcing them to enroll in 1st grade at age 6, 2nd grade at age 7 and so forth. Our kids would not have been able to graduate from an accredited high school until they were age 18.

We've been homeschooling and the kids finished their first high school curricula at age 10 so they've been just studying what they are interested in and making a lot of money as independent contractors since then. Our 12 year old cleared over two thousand dollars in three days a couple weeks ago.

We have been stymied on college scholarships because even if you score the highest possible on the SAT, many of these scholarships require a GPA from an "accredited" school and you can't enroll as a high school senior just to establish that GPA even if you have already finished calculus, trigonometry, analytical geometry, etc.... but you are only 12 years old.

Here's how we have pulled off a coup. Our kids just enrolled in correspondence school at the 7th and 8th grade level. But this school has a special agreement with the University that allows kids to enroll in University classes at an amazing discount... and the university has no age restrictions.

When they put this program together they were thinking gifted high school seniors would be taking a few college classes. But since they put no age restrictions in there, you can register at any age.

So even though they are technically in 7th and 8th grade, they are simultaneously enrolled at the University as of now. They had to pass some entrance/placement exams, but that has never been the problem. The problem was paying for tuition when we knew they could get scholarships if only they were not discriminated against on the basis of age.

We don't need the scholarships now because the University effectively gives you one if you are in this correspondence program through the school district. It isn't free, but it is greatly reduced and we do not have to re-take classes they have already taken just to establish a GPA for scholarship purposes.
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Old 17th April 2023, 03:47 PM   #2
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Can only say Wow! Way to beat the system.

A mind IS a terrible thing to waste, and so many go wasted in the government school system.
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Old 17th April 2023, 10:01 PM   #3
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Government schools meet the needs of most students. However, there are a few students at both ends of the intelligence spectrum (and probably a few others) where their needs are not met. I have always felt that these students need special education. For those that are highly intelligent money should hardly be an issue. They should be allowed to develop to their full potential and then when they reach adulthood make discoveries that revolutionize the world.
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Old 18th April 2023, 12:01 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Government schools meet the needs of most some students.
ftfy.
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Old 18th April 2023, 12:23 AM   #5
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I think "most" is reasonable.
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Old 18th April 2023, 01:49 AM   #6
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Why are they going to college?
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Old 18th April 2023, 05:30 AM   #7
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OP, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but your beliefs about college acceptance requirements are a steaming pile of bull ****. You are either wildly misrepresenting the scenario to a comical degree, or you have ****** up the application process on an industrial scale.

Home schooled students are not an oddity anymore, nor have they been for decades. Most colleges and universities have their home schooled entrance criteria posted on their home page FAQ's because it is so common now. Here's a quick look at some local school up in Massachusetts:

https://college.harvard.edu/admissio...n-requirements

All three of my kids graduated college from different states with teenage home schooled students who didn't seem to have to jump through the strange hoops you claim exist. Maybe at a street corner community college they flounder a bit, but not at the kind of school your exceptionally accomplished children would be targeting. MIT and Caltech would be falling all over each other to offer free ride scholarships, and you wouldn't hear a peep about "accredited high schools". In fact, theyd be on everyone's home page as prodigy stories

{ETA}If you genuinely think that this accredited HS thing is some kind of roadblock, they can bag a GED and there is no further imaginary obstacle. {/ETA}Simply post what kind of programs they are interested in and I'll link the application pages in this thread to credible colleges and universities, free of charge.

ETA: Alaska generally requires a GED applicant to be 18 yrs old, I see. Mea culpa. Perhaps you could indicate which schools your kids have been applying to which have this odd "accredited high school" requirement? I can't even find a school that doesn't offer application programs for home schooled students, and underage overachievers graduating college before they are old enough to drive is an everyday thing at any major school.

Also, you should probably abandon any ideas of a scholarship, as you have posted many times about your multi million dollar payday settlements and how your children already make thousands of dollars a day as independent contractors. Offering financial assistance would be a joke to people of your staggering means. An academic scholarship would be freely offered though for your young prodigies, so please post their interests so I can have the appropriate recruiters banging on your door with lucrative full rides.
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Old 18th April 2023, 05:31 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why are they going to college?
You may want to reword your post. The student in the OP is going to university for obvious reasons.
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Old 18th April 2023, 05:38 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
You may want to reword your post. The student in the OP is going to university for obvious reasons.
(I was using the word like a lot of the USA folk use it - to mean university.)

Sorry but given just this post I'd say it isn't obvious - plus I've read other posts of AlaskaBushPilot and how he has described his and his family's attitude seems to be against the orthodoxy of much to do with education.

(AlaskaBushPilot - no insult or anything meant by saying against the orthodoxy - couldn't think of a better worded concise summary.)
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Old 18th April 2023, 01:59 PM   #10
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Put it this way. Most people today who have high paying jobs have a qualification given to them by a university. About the only exception are businesspeople who develop an original idea. Steve Jobs is one such example.
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Old 18th April 2023, 05:51 PM   #11
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Obviously you've missed your calling. The education system could use people who can turn pupils into superpowered singularities of professional and academic success.

What I don't understand is why you're still so intent on rushing them through the education system when they're obviously doing fine and spending their time productively. How's getting a formal degree a few years earlier going to help?
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Old 18th April 2023, 06:44 PM   #12
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Why stop at home high schooling? Keep right on going to Home Colleging! Then they can have Home Doctorate degrees recognized by the Home Accreditation Mill. This thread is like a machine that prints money.

First course: Age Discrimination 101: What does it mean?
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Old 18th April 2023, 07:36 PM   #13
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I assume the above two posts are jokes so no need to respond.
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Old 19th April 2023, 09:55 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
I assume the above two posts are jokes so no need to respond.
Joking delivery perhaps, but with perfectly serious points.

For instance, do you agree with the OP's assertion that this is a matter of age discrimination? I don't mean in the pissant pedantic sense. In substance, do you think colleges unfairly refuse to admit child prodigies on the basis of their being too young?
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Old 19th April 2023, 04:08 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Joking delivery perhaps, but with perfectly serious points.

For instance, do you agree with the OP's assertion that this is a matter of age discrimination? I don't mean in the pissant pedantic sense. In substance, do you think colleges unfairly refuse to admit child prodigies on the basis of their being too young?
Thank you for the translation.

That is a good question. On the one hand it would be great if they could graduate at a very young age and then go on to make world-changing discoveries. On the other hand, they may have problems interacting with people several years older than they are. This would be especially true if they were home schooled. But if they could show they can behave like an older person they should be able to go to college / university. So I think there is no one answer.
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Old 20th April 2023, 06:34 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Thank you for the translation.

That is a good question. On the one hand it would be great if they could graduate at a very young age and then go on to make world-changing discoveries. On the other hand, they may have problems interacting with people several years older than they are. This would be especially true if they were home schooled. But if they could show they can behave like an older person they should be able to go to college / university. So I think there is no one answer.
As I see it, the university has a liability problem, too. Generally, freshmen are overwhelmingly legal adults when entering school, so the school protocols are designed around adult students. A minor student results in some odd caregiving responsibilities that the institution may not be prepared to provide?

ETA: I don't think that qualifies as age discrimination, per the OP's implication
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Old 22nd April 2023, 09:44 AM   #17
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In many states there is a process called "emancipation" which provides most rights of adulthood. For instance in California it can apply to 14-17 y/o and provides:

1. Live where you want.
2. Sign contracts.
3. Keep the money you earn.
4. Buy, sell, lease, or give away any interest you have in real or personal property.
5. Get a work permit without parental consent.
6. Enroll yourself in school.
7. Sue someone in your own name.
8. Make a valid Will.
9. Consent to your own medical, dental, and psychiatric care.
10. Stay out as late as you want. (Curfew laws do not apply to emancipated minors.)

Also marriage or joining the military results in emancipation.

Judge and parents have to approve it.
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Old 23rd April 2023, 07:47 AM   #18
Thermal
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Originally Posted by marting View Post
In many states there is a process called "emancipation" which provides most rights of adulthood. For instance in California it can apply to 14-17 y/o and provides:

1. Live where you want.
2. Sign contracts.
3. Keep the money you earn.
4. Buy, sell, lease, or give away any interest you have in real or personal property.
5. Get a work permit without parental consent.
6. Enroll yourself in school.
7. Sue someone in your own name.
8. Make a valid Will.
9. Consent to your own medical, dental, and psychiatric care.
10. Stay out as late as you want. (Curfew laws do not apply to emancipated minors.)

Also marriage or joining the military results in emancipation.

Judge and parents have to approve it.
Which could be made more complicated with a minor who is intellectually advanced but socially and emotionally more in line with their peers.
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Old 29th April 2023, 03:25 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why are they going to college?
We thought about skipping college altogether, a relative was a founding engineer at Zenith and only had a high school degree.

We figure there is no harm in it. One is in microprocessor engineering, the other in process technology.

The process technology grads are starting at six figures in the oil industry here up on the North Slope. 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off. That's ideal for someone who wants to run their own contracting enterprises on their time off, while accumulating a passive pension at the same time.

Our little engineer loves math and science, the high school classes are just too low a level. He started working with a top field applications engineer at Renesas Corporation on their suite of microcontroller products. An apprenticeship of sorts. He is about to retire and had to finish up some big contracts so for the time being our son went back to school.
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Old 29th April 2023, 03:31 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
OP, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but your beliefs about college acceptance requirements are a steaming pile of bull ****. You are either wildly misrepresenting the scenario to a comical degree, or you have ****** up the application process on an industrial scale.

Home schooled students are not an oddity anymore, nor have they been for decades. Most colleges and universities have their home schooled entrance criteria posted on their home page FAQ's because it is so common now. Here's a quick look at some local school up in Massachusetts:

https://college.harvard.edu/admissio...n-requirements

All three of my kids graduated college from different states with teenage home schooled students who didn't seem to have to jump through the strange hoops you claim exist. Maybe at a street corner community college they flounder a bit, but not at the kind of school your exceptionally accomplished children would be targeting. MIT and Caltech would be falling all over each other to offer free ride scholarships, and you wouldn't hear a peep about "accredited high schools". In fact, theyd be on everyone's home page as prodigy stories

{ETA}If you genuinely think that this accredited HS thing is some kind of roadblock, they can bag a GED and there is no further imaginary obstacle. {/ETA}Simply post what kind of programs they are interested in and I'll link the application pages in this thread to credible colleges and universities, free of charge.

ETA: Alaska generally requires a GED applicant to be 18 yrs old, I see. Mea culpa. Perhaps you could indicate which schools your kids have been applying to which have this odd "accredited high school" requirement? I can't even find a school that doesn't offer application programs for home schooled students, and underage overachievers graduating college before they are old enough to drive is an everyday thing at any major school.

Also, you should probably abandon any ideas of a scholarship, as you have posted many times about your multi million dollar payday settlements and how your children already make thousands of dollars a day as independent contractors. Offering financial assistance would be a joke to people of your staggering means. An academic scholarship would be freely offered though for your young prodigies, so please post their interests so I can have the appropriate recruiters banging on your door with lucrative full rides.
That was so sweet, thank you!

The settlements don't go to me, silly. I am paid as an expert witness in the trials.

Even multimillionaires take scholarships that are available, this is just another silly comment. And we are paying tuition. It's just a lot less than it would otherwise be.

Look at the Alaska Performance Scholarship for example, it requires a GPA from an accredited school. And it is not the only one.

Last edited by AlaskaBushPilot; 29th April 2023 at 03:51 PM.
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Old 29th April 2023, 03:34 PM   #21
AlaskaBushPilot
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Originally Posted by marting View Post
In many states there is a process called "emancipation" which provides most rights of adulthood. For instance in California it can apply to 14-17 y/o and provides:

1. Live where you want.
2. Sign contracts.
3. Keep the money you earn.
4. Buy, sell, lease, or give away any interest you have in real or personal property.
5. Get a work permit without parental consent.
6. Enroll yourself in school.
7. Sue someone in your own name.
8. Make a valid Will.
9. Consent to your own medical, dental, and psychiatric care.
10. Stay out as late as you want. (Curfew laws do not apply to emancipated minors.)

Also marriage or joining the military results in emancipation.

Judge and parents have to approve it.
Yes, thank you for being a reasonable person instead the knee-jerk hate.

We looked into it. They have to be 17 in this state.
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Old 29th April 2023, 03:42 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Joking delivery perhaps, but with perfectly serious points.

For instance, do you agree with the OP's assertion that this is a matter of age discrimination? I don't mean in the pissant pedantic sense. In substance, do you think colleges unfairly refuse to admit child prodigies on the basis of their being too young?
It isn't the University. We've already met with them. The kids are registered right now. They were just not eligible for a bunch of scholarships requiring they go through government approved high schools.

Thermal is insisting above that I don't know colleges enroll homeschool students when I already said they are registered at the University NOW.

The problem was the traditional high schools would not let them enroll in high school classes. The older boy would be in 7th grade and have to take 7th grade classes. The younger boy would be in 6th grade and have to take 6th grade classes.

But the older boy has already had calculus I and trig.

The younger boy has already finished 3 of his college process technology books.

Because of their ages, the traditional schools all want to force them into their age group. We have found a program through a correspondence school where they allow the kids to take college classes.

We want scholarships. They require a GPA from an accredited (government sanctioned) school.

Last edited by AlaskaBushPilot; 29th April 2023 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 29th April 2023, 03:47 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
On the other hand, they may have problems interacting with people several years older than they are. This would be especially true if they were home schooled. But if they could show they can behave like an older person they should be able to go to college / university. So I think there is no one answer.
It's the opposite.

They interact with adults better than kids their own age because all of their education and training has been with adults.

This is the first thing adults say about them - how they act like adults instead of children.
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Old 29th April 2023, 03:53 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Can only say Wow! Way to beat the system.

A mind IS a terrible thing to waste, and so many go wasted in the government school system.
Thanks Greg.

We sometimes hope that people with kids who are advanced can figure out a way to allow them to flourish instead of being held back.

Because what tends to happen is that they get bored, resentful, and become behavioral problems.
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Old 29th April 2023, 04:44 PM   #25
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YMMV, but I am of the opiinion that children gain far more than just academic advancement from being schooled with their peers: indeed, I would argue that the social skills learned in school may even be more usefull in the long term than any advantage that may come from hot-housing of students that their parents have identified as "talented", or otherwise "special".
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Old 1st May 2023, 04:41 PM   #26
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On what information do you base that opinion?
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Old 1st May 2023, 05:06 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
Yes, thank you for being a reasonable person instead the knee-jerk hate.

We looked into it. They have to be 17 in this state.
In Alaska? 16, actually.

https://www.akleg.gov/basis/statutes.asp#09.55.585
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Old 3rd May 2023, 08:36 AM   #28
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ABP: first off, apologies, I was on hairtrigger when responding to your post. Had a customer bull ******** the bejesus out of me, but that wasn't your problem.

So your kids are picking up some credit classes online. That's cool, my kids have done so, and I even have a bunch from continuing education courses and a few fun classes I took. Will they be able to accumulate enough credits to meet graduation requirements? Typically, the schools offer a few here and there, but you'd never accumulate enough to actually graduate with a degree, and often, the credits are not transferrable to a credible institution. Maybe it makes more sense to get them on the prodigy program ASAP? By the time they are 16, having met HS requirements will mean nothing. Strike while the iron is hot, man. Right now, they are virtually guaranteed a free ride almost anywhere. In four years or so, they are closer to the average range.

Also, you said your multi million dollar settlement was champagne popping time. But if you were just the expert, why would you care? I put out occasional reports for construction litigation, and I get paid the same either way, and (at least in theory) I don't have a dog in the race. My concern is strictly about the judge's opinion on my findings, after playing dueling experts.

ETA: you opened with claiming this was a case of "age discrimination". Do you really think that is the case?
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Old 18th May 2023, 02:01 PM   #29
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Classes start Monday.

We met with the Registrar's office and Admissions people yesterday - wow, they were so warm and encouraging! We had to submit forms for who gets to see their University records and to get permission to attend college as minors.

For those not paying attention because of the hate, our first son is technically in 7th grade. Because that is the law. Repeat: he is in 7th grade. Because of the law.

He is not allowed to be in 8th grade, in 9th, in 10th, in 11th, or 12th grade. I know how stupid that sounds because he is a college student. He scored a 92 on the math placement exam, where even a 70 qualified him for calculus. So the University admitted him and he is enrolled for the summer semester.

Our "6th grader" will be starting college during the upcoming school year. But he has already finished 3 of the textbooks in the Process Technology program.

How did we accomplish this?

There is a dual enrollment program between the University and the School District. Originally it was thought that seniors in high school who were gifted could sign up for college courses and get dual enrollment: the classes count towards high school graduation and they get college credit too.

But they did not put an age restriction on the dual enrollment program. That's why our son is in 7th grade, but he is simultaneously earning college credit because he is taking college courses in this dual enrollment program. This is the loop hole that allows us to effectively evade the age discrimination.



Thermal - well thank you for that apology. We're pretty accustomed to it. We have taken a lot of abuse for 14 years, beginning with being ridiculed for singing the ABC song through mommy's womb every day. "Ha ha ha, look at those deluded parents thinking a fetus can learn..."

We have been raided by child protective services because nasty people filled with hate called and filed complaints against us when we had our first son walking at 8 weeks old. We were following peer reviewed science literature like Zelazo's "Walking in the Newborn", 1971. Look it up on PubMed.

We did try to meet with public school officials at various times to see about enrolling them for socialization purposes but they absolutely would not consider letting them be in a higher grade than their age placement. Yes, that is discrimination. And they didn't just say "no". It was mocking, ridicule, and statements like they would never "do that" to their own children.

They're going to graduate college through this program, yes. And it looks like some very caring people have figured out how to get everything paid for.

Effectively, it is a full ride. We already paid tuition for the summer but they are going to get us fully reimbursed. It seems like every day more people who believe in our kids are stepping up to help us.

Oh it matters very much to me how these cases turn out. One just settled where two bad guys stole millions from a public charity. It was a very complicated financial swindle that took us 2 years to unravel. They hid documents, burned a building down to destroy evidence, and because they were politically connected got a criminal investigation by the Attorney General's office quashed. They came very close to getting away with it.

We don't just testify. My principle partner has a fraud credential so we do financial forensics. The judge said our report was the best he had ever seen. The very last submission had to do with cash skimming and the other side first tried to block admission. But the judge ruled against them. After that ruling, they settled. Because a jury would have been infuriated. I did all that cash skimming analysis and probably 80% of the total work on that case.

We got to subpoena all kinds of records: from banks, from title companies, from a trust, a real estate company, and put half a dozen people under oath to answer questions after years of getting away with this. So the lawyers count on us to lay out where we need records from, who needs to answer questions, and what the questions are. We prepare exhibits for their depositions and for the trials.

I have had a lot of very interesting cases, the biggest of which was the North Slope Oil Royalty litigation - that was a settlement in the billions. In my first deposition, Exxon asked who wrote the textbooks I used for my graduate statistics classes. They hired one of the authors to criticize my report. Ronald Coase was on a team with me in 1989. Look him up. Great guy, RIP.


I can't convey how much gratitude we have for all the people at the University and this dual enrollment program. Not one word of sophistry about how bad it is to have young people performing at this level and interacting with adults on adult matters.

Instead, it has been a lot of congratulations, a lot of genuinely warm heartfelt encouragement. Most shocking of all is to hear them say what a great father, lol.
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Old 30th May 2023, 12:02 AM   #30
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I can't speak for your kids. And I'm neither myself a teacher nor personally involved in any school system. But to the best of my understanding Oregonian schools are also loathe to place students very far from their age group, regardless of what their actual academic knowledge level is. The rationale as I understand it is that a significant part of the educational experience is presumed to come not merely from direct academic instruction, but also from socialization and negotiation with peers.

I nearly married a nice lady who had two autistic little boys, aged appropriately (at the time) for early grade elementary school. Neither could talk or read, beyond repeating short sentences from their surroundings; like movie clips, or song lyrics that had been repeated often in front of them. They spent half their school day in special education classes. But spent the other half with classmates of their respective age level. Because, I was told, that socialization was deemed to be important. I myself also ran afoul of the academics vs socialization issue back in my pre-college days. I was a bit of an autodidact, and finished high school years ahead, academically speaking, of most classmates. (And with some 10+ AP classes). But also socially stunted...and that really held me back once it came to college/life/etc afterward. It's not that I didn't have friends or anything. I just...wasn't very good at reading people, or getting my needs met in friendships/relationships. And I was painfully shy/scared about about a host of things but also brazen and tonedeaf about others. I've no doubt that there are and were any number of ways in which I (or my parents) could have better prepared myself for actual life and...you know, people; it just didn't happen in my case.

Not my place to judge or anything, just sharing.
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Old 30th May 2023, 05:36 AM   #31
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How much scholarship are you missing out on by not attending accredited high school and how much more money are your kids standing to make by entering the workforce several years earlier than their peers? You might find that entering the work force several years early is worth paying more tuition, even using loaned money.

I would also worry that they may have trouble finding professional work at such a young age, regardless of what degrees they may hold. Pursuing post-graduate degrees might be a productive way to toll time until they reach the age of majority and are more attractive to those looking to hire.

I too would worry about the social costs of depriving children of socialization with like aged peers. There were a few 16 year old home school savant types at my college and they tended to really suffer in social scenarios, both because of their age but also often because of their stunted social skills. Not to get too lurid, but I imagine skipping schooling is also curtailing a lot of potential for figuring out adult socialization like romance and sex with similar aged peers also navigating their blunder years.

On the other hand, it was also very common for talented students to totally flame out in harder college coursework. Anyone with even average intelligence and half paying attention can breeze through the high school curriculum without too much effort and may find that they really don't have the habits and self-discipline required to strenuously apply themselves to more difficult work. Smart kids that get bored with the pace of classroom teaching is a real problem that should be addressed, though I'm not convinced that sequestering away to home-schooling is the best option.
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Old 31st May 2023, 06:35 AM   #32
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I'm not convinced that sequestering away to home-schooling is the best option.
It's not like they are in a monastery..
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Old 31st May 2023, 11:45 AM   #33
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I have these conversations with my HS freshman teen daughter. She was private til this year and is now varsity on 3 teams at her high school and straight A's including 4 AP courses. I told her if she wants to learn more, I can enroll her at the college and she will gert credit. I tell her that her school will not promote this but it is available to her. I instill to her that she is the architect of her own education and give her all the available tactics to get it.

Being into sports though and being varsity and so tall at her age she is advantaged where she is at the moment. It's a million dollar potential if she gets the right school.

She could do more sports time if she completed more credits by fall of her senior year and had the time (ie get out of school at noon) to do a job/sport before enrolling in any scholarship,which I am sure she will get at this point.

The California teachers wont tell her this....but I do. Her cousin went to Harvard on this strategy...not that I'd send her there. Most elite universities are suspect to me right now, as is blatantly evident in their accomplishments, or lack thereof.
The "can do" spirit can be done without them. And better without them for most liberal arts.
So I tell her she needs to know the resources she wants and where those are- and then decide..

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