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Tags "Making a Murderer" , Brendan Dassey , documentaries , murder cases , Steven Avery , Teresa Halbach , tv shows

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Old 30th January 2016, 05:11 PM   #1761
AlaskaBushPilot
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The quarry site is natural for the volunteer searchers, this was their stated plan: to start from where she was last sighted, leaving Avery Road onto 147. That is Steve's testimony.

So you are working under a scenario where she is stopped, diverted, and the car is somewhere in the vicinity. You do a grid search on a map. Well the quarry is immediately adjacent to Avery's property, south. It is accessible by either way on 147, although West is a little longer route.

These teams were actually on foot, on the properties to the north and east so logically the same thing is going to be true on the south. If you look directly into Avery's property from the south, you are going to see the concealed RAV4. But you would need to get up close and peek behind the hood leaning up on it or the plywood. It's extremely suspicious at a glance.

This is one possibility for the RAV4 getting into the cops' hands, or citizen agents before a legal search has been conducted. Why the family member, the ex-private detective is sent in there with a camera. And those end up prime exhibits at trial.
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Old 30th January 2016, 05:15 PM   #1762
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Samson - sorry.

I mine gravel pits. To build roads, building pads, septic rock or whatever.

So it is natural for me to say "pit" from a gravel-mining context when I should be saying quarry. Steve has a burn pit. The "pit" is the quarry to me in my own vernacular. I would be driving my dump truck into what you call the quarry on the south and that I would call a pit. Rip out some rock with a loader or excavator. Dump it somewhere and doze it out. Might have to screen it first, I dunno.

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Old 30th January 2016, 05:26 PM   #1763
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
Very good "wild card" I haven't thought through, so yes this might straighten out some perplexing decisions by whoever it was. I don't know Steve's history.

I do have to apologize for something, not my fault really but everything is in such a state of flux as you work through these trial transcripts.

You see the expert's report on the quarry bones, and it just seems such a clincher on human bones in the pit, same condition as the Janda burn barrel #2 and Steve's pit, chards of human bones cast out on three sides of it.

But when he is on the stand it is actually the defense on cross-examination that really presses him on whether they are human or not, then re-direct on top of that resulting in...

the expert saying he cannot say with "scientific certainty" they are human. In the report it is female, same age range and height if I remember correctly but then in the end it's "no certainty".

There are cut marks, longways along the bone, someone separating meat from bone. All the burn sites have nonhuman bone too by the way.


The expert's best guess is that Avery's burn pit is the primary burn site, surprising to me. It comes down to the teeth. More teeth shards should be coming from Janda's barrel, I don't quite understand why. I think this means it is not compelling. It's just a guess and no degree of confidence. It is made clear that the total assembly of bones from all three sites is Theresa Halbach, executed with two shots to the head by a very small caliber .22, and cut up before she was burned.
You are speaking of the pelvic bone here? I haven't reached past day 4 so I haven't read any of that. I just want to make sure I am following you. I have been quite overwhelmed with real life and I have not resumed reading the transcripts... yet. Your info is very appreciated.


So let's think this through. (Me thinking aloud here...)

I am thinking it occurred in the trailer. She had to obtain payment, the documents were inside his trailer so maybe he just attacked her right inside the door of the trailer. He strangled her or beat her up badly. Maybe she was unconscious and he loaded her into her car and drove to the quarry and shot her in the head to finish her off and burned her up right there. He might have put bullets in her just as overkill. I do not believe there was a clean-up of blood in the garage and I do not believe Brenden was involved.

The alternative is that he told her he had another car and they drove down toward the quarry and it all took place there.

I think he never thought they would look for the car at his place before he could get rid of it. I can't figure out why he didn't do it on the 1st or 2nd though. By the evening of the third it was being looked for and was on the news. The vehicle just really does not make sense to me. He had to know it would be located. I don't think the bad decision was due to alcohol because he literally had 3 days to get rid of it and didn't.

ETA: what day is the bone testimony on?

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Old 30th January 2016, 05:29 PM   #1764
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
The quarry site is natural for the volunteer searchers, this was their stated plan: to start from where she was last sighted, leaving Avery Road onto 147. That is Steve's testimony.

So you are working under a scenario where she is stopped, diverted, and the car is somewhere in the vicinity. You do a grid search on a map. Well the quarry is immediately adjacent to Avery's property, south. It is accessible by either way on 147, although West is a little longer route.

These teams were actually on foot, on the properties to the north and east so logically the same thing is going to be true on the south. If you look directly into Avery's property from the south, you are going to see the concealed RAV4. But you would need to get up close and peek behind the hood leaning up on it or the plywood. It's extremely suspicious at a glance.

This is one possibility for the RAV4 getting into the cops' hands, or citizen agents before a legal search has been conducted. Why the family member, the ex-private detective is sent in there with a camera. And those end up prime exhibits at trial.
I think you might be onto something. What if the cops found the vehicle on the Avery property via illegal search so they staged it to be found via the cousin?
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Old 30th January 2016, 05:33 PM   #1765
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
Samson - sorry.

I mine gravel pits. To build roads, building pads, septic rock or whatever.

So it is natural for me to say "pit" from a gravel-mining context when I should be saying quarry. Steve has a burn pit. The "pit" is the quarry to me in my own vernacular. I would be driving my dump truck into what you call the quarry on the south and that I would call a pit. Rip out some rock with a loader or excavator. Dump it somewhere and doze it out. Might have to screen it first, I dunno.
Thank you I thought so. So to summarise, it appears the bones recovered from three quite distinct locations can be assembled meaningfully into Teresa's skeleton.
Also there were two bullet holes as though two quick shots in succession?

Do you see why this at least makes logically possible a theory which has Lenk pulling her over, executing her with two shots to be sure of immediate death, driving her body in her car to the quarry, with the minor head bleeding as the heart stopped immediately consistent with the back seat evidence, dissembling the body so he could burn bits one by one with a propane burner, and then planting most of the bones in two other locations to implicate the man who is potentially bankrupting him?

Note I am asking if this scenario is indeed consistent with what transcripts you have studied, no matter how extreme the crime would be, rather than in any way suggesting it is what happened.


Alternatively, is there any one data point that excludes this theory already?
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Old 30th January 2016, 07:18 PM   #1766
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Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
There are two issues with the vial that again the defense made a huge deal out of in the documentary but that are easily explained.

1. The broken seal. This was likely done back in 2002:

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-co...nted-Blood.pdf

2. The hole in the top of the rubber stopper of the vial. If you've ever had blood drawn and the techs need to capture it in vials they will often insert a small IV first and then attach a vial to the exterior needle of the IV so that it can be easily filled. This is what puts the hole in the vial that everyone thinks is how the blood was drawn out of the vial.

If it's any consolation though, even Kratz has stated that if a test is developed that can prove the blood in the SUV was from the vial that Avery deserves a new trial. I wonder if you will accept that science though?
It should have been transparent the first time they tested it. Re-tested in a transparent environment under a neutral party maybe. If the reality is its a unreliable test then never mind.

..dont forget whose name is associated with this evidence too...old Lenk, the magic-evidence man.
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Old 30th January 2016, 07:25 PM   #1767
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I highly recommend reading the transcripts.

We're all constrained by the actual evidence, and anything that is not supported by some kind of evidence is just speculation or conjecture.

To point the blame at anyone -be it Steven Avery, Officer Lenk, or William Shatner- requires evidence.
William Shatner? he does look kind of suspicious sometimes, but I dont think he could lift the barrel.

Zellner is more interesting, imo, she's reviewed more than Judge Willis allowed I assume. I agree reading transcripts are great places for info, but if its just someone like Lenk at times, or Colburn, saying they did nothing wrong. So not all transcripts are the truth.

The FBI EDTA testing will be reviewed again and the raw data and whatever they can gather will be gone over in great depth.

I'm very curious what the law is about a tainted jury, that could be extremely revealing and the people would, imo, be credible. Like the guy at the propane truck and the bus driver. The jurors voted 7= Not Guilty first round, first vote...what happened in there?
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Old 30th January 2016, 07:28 PM   #1768
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Originally Posted by Tony99 View Post
The cut appears to be on the outside middle finger of his right hand.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...cf870e62ae.jpg

Looks deep-ish, but not too terrible. It does appear to be in a likely location to transfer blood to the key/ignition of the RAV. Particularly if he was holding that finger out to avoid further contact or injury.
My big problem is zero fingerprints anywhere on the vehicle.

I wonder if there were any materials in the blood samples that would indicate he may have been wearing gloves e.g. cotton, nylon, some fibers.
I'm having a difficult time with blood soaking in a large enough quantity from that cut to seep through gloves other than light cotton/fabric or a hole directly over the cut in the glove.
Maybe AlaskaBP can chime in, but when I worked around metal, construction and scraps I always wore stiff leather gloves as did coworkers.
I've worked with multiple cuts on my fingers/hands and blood never came close to soaking through leather gloves.
That SUV must be huge to Zellner, they bought an exact duplicate for their study.
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Old 30th January 2016, 07:46 PM   #1769
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delete...

Last edited by Ampulla of Vater; 30th January 2016 at 09:30 PM. Reason: in his trailer, not on
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Old 30th January 2016, 08:59 PM   #1770
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Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
I think you might be onto something. What if the cops found the vehicle on the Avery property via illegal search so they staged it to be found via the cousin?
This. OR, Theresa's brother and ex were snooping the property and found the RAV. They let Colburn know what they found. Colburn showed up to verify the plates with his phone call (not radio) to dispatch. They very likely gave Colburn or Lenk the spare key to the RAV.
The sheriff even let them organize and orchestrate the search party in which the aunt (the only one with a camera) happened to find the RAV in 15min with gods help.

I can see a scenario where TH's brother or other distraught family member is approached by the sheriff convinced they know who murdered their daughter/sister, but lack hard evidence to put him away. Theresa's spare RAV key would go a long way in helping lock up a murderer.
Why would the family not 'aide' the sheriff? They are helping to ensure justice for Theresa.
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Old 30th January 2016, 09:04 PM   #1771
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Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
I really don't think the blood was planted.
Why wouldn't they have put some in his trailer to seal the deal?
Its being argued that Steven Avery's blood was planted on the RAV.
It wouldn't mean anything to plant Steve Avery's blood in his own trailer...he lives there.

Now if they had access to Theresa's blood, that should have been found in his trailer if she was killed there...or the garage...or anywhere on the property really.
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Old 30th January 2016, 09:29 PM   #1772
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Originally Posted by Tony99 View Post
Its being argued that Steven Avery's blood was planted on the RAV.
It wouldn't mean anything to plant Steve Avery's blood in his own trailer...he lives there.

Now if they had access to Theresa's blood, that should have been found in his trailer if she was killed there...or the garage...or anywhere on the property really.
OMG. I need to go to bed. You are so right. I have no idea what I was thinking. I wish I could remove that stupid post.
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Old 30th January 2016, 09:39 PM   #1773
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Happy to answer questions here in a bit. But I just wanted to show the best picture of how easy it would have been to ID this vehicle without setting foot on Avery's property.

Again, these searchers are on foot following roads, in the fields, looking for any sign of Theresa. Car, body, purse items, whatever. There's no talk about people being in the quarry, but there is on every other side so it is reasonable to assume it there too.

On the top right is someone standing on the roof of a car. Behind it is a white car. Those two cars are on the south edge of Avery's property. On the berm behind is the quarry. That's what we do when we mine it. We put a berm up so nobody walks or drives off the mine face.

Behind that guy is the berm, and it is higher than he is standing. So if you are on this quarry land, like every other side on foot looking for Theresa, you are well above Theresa's car looking down on this shiny new rig.

To the left of the picture and out of view is the pond. There is one row of cars except for this poorly camouflaged toyota RAV4. Double-parked.

This is the quarry where the other burn site was. You could also just drive in the road from the quarry. Someone could have done that too. There isn't a locked gate or anything.

The family of Theresa has been a little too smug with the prosecution, as if they are in on something, and this is not to disparage them in any way. It was a horrific loss and she was executed, just such utter stupidity, waste of a good life.

But the fact is they were engaged in a large scale search, in vehicles and on foot, eminating from Avery's outward. This quarry is the south side. It's a candidate intercept/abduct and conceal site. Close by. So logically aren't you looking there? And doesn't it look like that's even what happened, one good theory of the timeline, fitting all the evidence? Not Brendan's rape-in-trailer-stabbing timeline anyway.

This information brings in the troopers, right? Through the family, who is organizing the search. It is just a little too lucky the private eye in the family is going in with a camera she borrows from the search organizer, the brother, and zeros in right away on that RAV4. I see that now. It's the same kind of smugness about hacking into her cell phone records.

They did help solve the case, I mean in terms of the missing person's case. The family has the most to lose so they're obviously running this search operation, with the help of a group that does that sort of thing. They just followed their blueprint on missing persons with the flyers, the systematic mapping of the area - google earth - so that quarry is going to pop up and they'll search it. They know, or think that Steve Avery is the last to see her alive.

You can certainly see why the family would be dead certain it was Steve Avery. The way that things unfolded to them. You help find her car, and Steve Avery's blood is in it. Case closed.
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Old 30th January 2016, 09:56 PM   #1774
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
You can certainly see why the family would be dead certain it was Steve Avery. The way that things unfolded to them. You help find her car, and Steve Avery's blood is in it. Case closed.
Oh the sublime simplicity of it all. Well put. Every crime thriller needs a twist though...

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Old 30th January 2016, 10:12 PM   #1775
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Thank you I thought so. So to summarise, it appears the bones recovered from three quite distinct locations can be assembled meaningfully into Teresa's skeleton.
Also there were two bullet holes as though two quick shots in succession?
They recovered, by volume, an estimated 40%-60% of her skeleton. Quite a bit in Dassey Burn Barrel #2, Steve's burn pit, and the ones in the quarry. They're not duplicate bones of anything in the other two sites, so the total was roughly half of her.

What's important is the two head shots being in the Left Parietal and Occipital. These are either level or downward, from the side or rear... you don't know which came first.

The defense is clawing all the way - the experts have signed "death by homicide, gunshot" and the defense is making them say well okay, she might have died of drowning or poison first. Then shot, then burned.

The bullet they tied to theresa is a 16 twist barrel, the Marlin is the most common of that class, but not the only one. The ballistics guy says he thinks it is the gun.

Quote:
Do you see why this at least makes logically possible a theory which has Lenk pulling her over, executing her with two shots to be sure of immediate death, driving her body in her car to the quarry, with the minor head bleeding as the heart stopped immediately consistent with the back seat evidence, dissembling the body so he could burn bits one by one with a propane burner, and then planting most of the bones in two other locations to implicate the man who is potentially bankrupting him?
I don't rule anything out, really because of the multiplicity of evidence meddling and contradicting, changing testimony. A full hour of difference in time versions by people with equally plausible motives and background. Placed at the scene. It's a huge mess and reasonable people will disagree on very different versions.
Quote:

Note I am asking if this scenario is indeed consistent with what transcripts you have studied, no matter how extreme the crime would be, rather than in any way suggesting it is what happened.


Alternatively, is there any one data point that excludes this theory already?
Well, I haven't looked at it from that point of view so I can't say. Got another week of trial to go through.

edit: One thing for sure though, Lenk has not said what he was doing on certain days - the 4th is one of them I know for sure. He didn't sign in on another critical day. There's a possiblilty for planting the plate, in fact. The key, people seem to be in general extremely suspicions of. He drops it, exits to do something else, then on re-entering calls attention to it. Well nobody else is looking there because it has been searched and even photographed.

So if Lenk has corrupted this much then the only question is how far he can go. To murder, that seems way out there. But murder to me is inconceivable to begin with, even if I am Steven Avery. Who knows how this came down.

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Old 30th January 2016, 10:17 PM   #1776
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the expert saying he cannot say with "scientific certainty" they are human. In the report it is female, same age range and height if I remember correctly but then in the end it's "no certainty".
(shakes head)

That doesn't make sense to me. Anthropologists and archeologists and paleontologists...they all KNOW bones. They can reconstruct a single skeleton from a group of cavemen. They can reconstruct whole towns and figure out who was the king and who was the dishwasher just looking at bits of bones. They can find -and identify- nearly microscopic fragments of fossils so old they've turned to stone. They can find "nanobacteria" in rocks from Mars.

But this guy can't tell with certainty if the bones in the quarry were human? If all the bones found assemble a person, is there only part of a person without those bones? Or would those bones be extra -and evidence of another murder?

Further, if they weren't human, then what were they? What other kind of being could they have come from?
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Old 30th January 2016, 10:18 PM   #1777
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Originally Posted by Tony99 View Post
They very likely gave Colburn or Lenk the spare key to the RAV.
Good catch.

This has come out, the "valet key", since the trial. Internet sleuths. Reddit. By looking at the photo evidence.

Talk about a hot subject on appeal.
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Old 30th January 2016, 10:24 PM   #1778
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The family of Theresa has been a little too smug with the prosecution, as if they are in on something, and this is not to disparage them in any way.

.......

It's the same kind of smugness about hacking into her cell phone records.
I got that sense from the movie, too. Rather...like the attitude of a wife telling her husband's latest girlfriend to get lost. Just "we're in the right and our actions are not for you to question" or something like that.
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Old 30th January 2016, 10:36 PM   #1779
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Further, if they weren't human, then what were they? What other kind of being could they have come from?
I couldn't say. The defense suggested deer. The answer was no, definitively.

This diagram is in the exhibits, I forget where but it shows where they supposedly came from on a female skeleton. This evidence has been collected the same way as at the other burn sites. These detectives, the evidence technician qualified ones, don't know even if Theresa is dead yet, if these bones are hers but there's bones, possibly human, being discovered in an ever wider circle.

So these guys come in with a screening system, you have a larger, wider mesh size on top and a smaller mesh size underneath that, and then a tarp underneath.

They shovel the remains from the fire into these screens, which is assorting them by size. They throw out sticks, old cans, nails, whatever, and put the bony looking stuff in a box. Ship it to the lab.

They sort into animal bone, non-bone, and human bone. The least amount of human material is at the quarry. The pertinent expert says it can't be said with a scientific certainty. No DNA. So a reasonable person can say they don't believe the expert's impression of this as human bones. I'm going with human bones for now.

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Old 30th January 2016, 10:47 PM   #1780
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
What's important is the two head shots being in the Left Parietal and Occipital. These are either level or downward, from the side or rear... you don't know which came first.
Thank you for that. Steve is a great assassin.

ETA did I read some where he is five foot one inch?
Ok just checked, 5 foot 6

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Old 31st January 2016, 01:07 AM   #1781
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How safe is the analysis that those are indeed bullet holes? Could they have resulted from destruction of cremains, e.g. with a pick of some sort?
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Old 31st January 2016, 04:43 AM   #1782
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
How safe is the analysis that those are indeed bullet holes? Could they have resulted from destruction of cremains, e.g. with a pick of some sort?
No is the common sense answer I fear. We are clearly dealing with an execution. Sometimes it is difficult to imagine a person in a trusted position in the community could be a perpetrator, and it takes time to adjust to a fearsome reality.

For example

https://nz.news.yahoo.com/top-storie...-own-baby-son/
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Old 31st January 2016, 06:31 AM   #1783
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I haven't seen it mentioned that the car crusher was actually run by a third party. The testimony is it was "sort of a portable unit." LE had to call in the people who ran it to get them to raise it up so they could see what had been crushed. Perhaps that is why it wasn't yet crushed.

Day 6 page 28
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Old 31st January 2016, 07:12 AM   #1784
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post



<snip>

This photo has given me pause.

The info I have gotten has all come from this thread, and in its course the mentions of the car and how it was concealed had given me the impression that it was rather more well concealed than this photo shows.

I know it's an argument from incredulity, and I am no fan of those by any means, but it doesn't seem likely that someone who lived and worked at that or any salvage yard would have considered any of what is around the SUV to be concealment of any sort at all. Even temporary concealment.

It looks almost like it was meant to call attention to the vehicle.

Being somewhat familiar with the operation of salvage yards, if I passed that car without any other preconceptions, just driving through the yard, I would immediately wonder what the hell it was doing there, like that.

I have to think that Avery would have done a better job, starting with not picking that spot in the first place, and if he was going to try and hide it it would have actually been ... well ... hidden, not just have a couple of things leaned up against the side of it.

I admit that it might be possible that he could have left the car in such a state, but it doesn't seem at all likely. That looks much more like something that someone intended to be found.
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Old 31st January 2016, 11:12 AM   #1785
Samson
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
This photo has given me pause.

The info I have gotten has all come from this thread, and in its course the mentions of the car and how it was concealed had given me the impression that it was rather more well concealed than this photo shows.

I know it's an argument from incredulity, and I am no fan of those by any means, but it doesn't seem likely that someone who lived and worked at that or any salvage yard would have considered any of what is around the SUV to be concealment of any sort at all. Even temporary concealment.

It looks almost like it was meant to call attention to the vehicle.

Being somewhat familiar with the operation of salvage yards, if I passed that car without any other preconceptions, just driving through the yard, I would immediately wonder what the hell it was doing there, like that.

I have to think that Avery would have done a better job, starting with not picking that spot in the first place, and if he was going to try and hide it it would have actually been ... well ... hidden, not just have a couple of things leaned up against the side of it.

I admit that it might be possible that he could have left the car in such a state, but it doesn't seem at all likely. That looks much more like something that someone intended to be found.
Oh sure the vehicle was intended to be found. With Avery's blood near the ignition and other places.
If he was innocent, in that hypothetical instance framing is the inevitable finding of fact.
Framing with blood from a vial, dna on a key, and dna on a hood latch. If he is innocent, all those items were deliberately planted, as well as the bones and vehicle.
Who had access to all those things, and opportunity to plant?

Let us think of wrongful convictions generally, and with hindsight it can be seen that innocence is often easier to prove than guilt, and I believe Avery's proof of innocence is straightforward, but proof of guilt of the actual killer harder to come by.

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Old 31st January 2016, 11:57 AM   #1786
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I know it's an argument from incredulity,
Yep.

Quote:
but
here it comes...

Quote:
it doesn't seem likely that someone who lived and worked at that or any salvage yard would have considered any of what is around the SUV to be concealment... It looks almost like it was meant to call attention to the vehicle... much more like something that someone intended to be found.
Black is white, up is down - all evidence against against Avery is actually proof of his innocence!
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Old 31st January 2016, 12:23 PM   #1787
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Oh sure the vehicle was intended to be found. With Avery's blood near the ignition and other places...

Framing with blood from a vial, dna on a key, and dna on a hood latch... all those items were deliberately planted, as well as the bones and vehicle
So all the evidence was planted? By the police?

Quote:
Avery's proof of innocence is straightforward
Of course. All you have to do is dismiss all the evidence. Just start with the presumption that Avery is innocent, and the rest is obvious...

Quote:
but proof of guilt of the actual killer harder to come by.
Assuming you are correct there are 3 possibilities (in order of incredulity):-

1. Someone else killed Halbach and attempted to frame Avery. The police helped (either in collusion or independently) by planting DNA etc.

2. Someone else killed Halbach, then the police framed Avery by faking all the evidence.

3. The police killed Halbach and faked all the evidence!

Just one little problem with these theories - no evidence for them. But I forgot - in your upside-down world all the evidence against Avery is actually the opposite!
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Old 31st January 2016, 01:38 PM   #1788
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
So all the evidence was planted? By the police?

Of course. All you have to do is dismiss all the evidence. Just start with the presumption that Avery is innocent, and the rest is obvious...

Assuming you are correct there are 3 possibilities (in order of incredulity):-

1. Someone else killed Halbach and attempted to frame Avery. The police helped (either in collusion or independently) by planting DNA etc.

2. Someone else killed Halbach, then the police framed Avery by faking all the evidence.

3. The police killed Halbach and faked all the evidence!

Just one little problem with these theories - no evidence for them. But I forgot - in your upside-down world all the evidence against Avery is actually the opposite!
Ramjets, what do you think of this interview transcript I just typed out?

"Megan: Is there a theory you do have in your mind because after watching the series we're all like what the heck did happen?

Buting: Well unfortunately we may never know what happened because of the way this case was investigated there was evidence that was lost, and particularly the bones. The bones for us was a very important part of the case and it didn't get as much coverage in the documentary as maybe I might have hoped. Ah, there was clearly evidence that the bones had been moved, the question became was the body burned there or burned elsewhere and moved there. And if the body was burned elsewhere and moved there there is no question in any reasonable mind that Steven Avery had to be innocent. Because nobody would burn a body somewhere else and then bring the cremains and dump them in their back yard. So, unfortunately because of the way the state investigated they took no pictures of the burn pit behind his house and so there was no visual record of how the bones were distributed and what they looked like and the kinds of things a forensic archaeologist would use to rely on in making the conclusion whether they were dumped here or whether they originated here.

Fletch: And the thing that confused me was guilty of homicide but not guilty of mutilating a corpse, how do you get the bones in the condition they are in without some sort of mutilation of the corpse?

Buting: You're right and we filed a motion that those verdicts were inconsistent given the state's theory that, how could they say he was guilty of the homicide but not say he was guilty of the mutilation of the corpse, ah, you know sometimes jurors compromise and there's been some statements finally from some of the jurors leaking out now that that's what happened, that some of them were holding out for not guilty then they compromised by getting people to agree to vote not guilty on that I gather."

Does this challenge your current view of the case?
Does it challenge the view of anyone here?

You see we have something resembling a proof of Avery's innocence by now on the thread. What do we all do next? Try to fit one the junkyard rogues into it and collusion with framing with Lenk and Colborn? Or do we cut out the middlemen?

Remember Yossarian and his hospital bedfellow with drips in and drains out?
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Old 31st January 2016, 01:43 PM   #1789
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Yep.

here it comes...

Black is white, up is down - all evidence against against Avery is actually proof of his innocence!

A remarkably low content response. Verging on zero.
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Old 31st January 2016, 02:06 PM   #1790
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Someone asked upthread where the bone evidence was in the trial and off the top of my head it was back in the early teens like day 13, 14, around there - but more than two days. There's a trial index.

Tubba Blubba that was the same question I had. The transcripts indicate this was one of the best forensic results with at least two experts going on extensively about how clear it is. She was definitely executed by .22 caliber bullet, there's even lead traces on the skull pieces. Did they plant that? No way.

Same thing with the cut marks; saw marks. That's what happened. So you have an execution, by .22 to the head, two shots, and she is stuffed into the back of the RAV4. Butchered first, then burned. The bleeding through the hair, the blood in the back - a lot of detail in the blood evidence pointing to it going down that way.

And you have to ask why she is stuffed in the back of the RAV4 after she is shot. It looks really good to me that she is taken to the quarry. One scenario I was looking for was a blow to the head, knocking her unconscious, bleeding in the RAV4 while taken to the actual rape scene. But no testimony or evidence to that effect. No skull pieces, and there were a lot of them, with blunt force trauma or whatever.

There is no testimony about exit wounds, and I don't remember defense counsel pointing that out. Because without exit wounds you don't have a bullet in the garage.

If you are following the logic of the prosecution's "public" trial as opposed to the actual trial with no motive or timeline of events... Steve has these torture-chamber fantasies where he has her in ropes, handcuffs, and leg irons. We are talking about a long, horrific and ghastly thing for Theresa to endure before she is executed. Whether Brendan is in on it or not.

It can't have happened that way unless he's got an underground bunker they haven't found yet. I can't offer a storyline that fits all the evidence because no story line can. You have to dismiss either some evidence or testimony in order to write your story.

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Old 31st January 2016, 02:13 PM   #1791
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Oh sure the vehicle was intended to be found. With Avery's blood near the ignition and other places.
If he was innocent, in that hypothetical instance framing is the inevitable finding of fact.
Framing with blood from a vial, dna on a key, and dna on a hood latch. If he is innocent, all those items were deliberately planted, as well as the bones and vehicle.
Who had access to all those things, and opportunity to plant?

Let us think of wrongful convictions generally, and with hindsight it can be seen that innocence is often easier to prove than guilt, and I believe Avery's proof of innocence is straightforward, but proof of guilt of the actual killer harder to come by.
Just saw this, confirming the early note the tube of blood vial lid was removed, its not all about the little hole in the stopper. The framing would be back on the table, and this alone would get a new trial (and probably Lenk looked at even more).

http://www.businessinsider.com/inves...od-vial-2016-1
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Old 31st January 2016, 02:17 PM   #1792
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Originally Posted by Tony99 View Post
Its being argued that Steven Avery's blood was planted on the RAV.
It wouldn't mean anything to plant Steve Avery's blood in his own trailer...he lives there.

Now if they had access to Theresa's blood, that should have been found in his trailer if she was killed there...or the garage...or anywhere on the property really.
I wouldnt put that idea past Lenk, he was very likely thinking about it.

The fact these two guys, Lenk and Colburn, werent supposed to be there in the first place, had to be "baby sat" by other police officers and then of all the other honest police and detectives searching the bedroom...Lenk finds a key to the SUV...its almost comical.

And then you think? well...if he had access to that key to plant, he must have had access to the SUV earlier...right? I mean where would he get the key?

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Old 31st January 2016, 02:24 PM   #1793
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
You see we have something resembling a proof of Avery's innocence by now on the thread.
Yeah right.

Quote:
What do we all do next? Try to fit one the junkyard rogues into it and collusion with framing with Lenk and Colborn?
Nah, just go full-on CT and insist that the cops killed her. Either that or it was aliens...

Because the more 'out there' the theory is, the more true it must be!
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Old 31st January 2016, 02:41 PM   #1794
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Originally Posted by JREF2010 View Post
Just saw this, confirming the early note the tube of blood vial lid was removed, its not all about the little hole in the stopper. The framing would be back on the table, and this alone would get a new trial (and probably Lenk looked at even more).

http://www.businessinsider.com/inves...od-vial-2016-1
Excellent find for a CTer like me. Except it is looking like a conspiracy of one to start with, and one ring in, the hapless and dopey Colborn.
I am convinced Kratz was hoodwinked, and if it is possible to feel sorry for him, I am getting there.
He apparently agrees to a new trial when they find the preservative in the SUV blood, which they no doubt will. There will be some molecular composition match for the vial blood and the SUV blood.
Zellner is enjoying herself I bet.
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Old 31st January 2016, 02:44 PM   #1795
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Yeah right.

Nah, just go full-on CT and insist that the cops killed her. Either that or it was aliens...

Because the more 'out there' the theory is, the more true it must be!
As I suggest innocence is a cakewalk to prove. Avery has alibis everywhere you look. Just the phone calls from dear Jodi work for me.
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Old 31st January 2016, 02:53 PM   #1796
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Excellent find for a CTer like me. Except it is looking like a conspiracy of one to start with, and one ring in, the hapless and dopey Colborn.
I am convinced Kratz was hoodwinked, and if it is possible to feel sorry for him, I am getting there.
He apparently agrees to a new trial when they find the preservative in the SUV blood, which they no doubt will. There will be some molecular composition match for the vial blood and the SUV blood.
Zellner is enjoying herself I bet.
At first the idea of a police killing someone is unimaginable, but when you place someones career and pension, and face saving to the community in the soup...you are right, they (Lenk & Colburn) definitely have huge motive.

add> that Petersen Sheriif making the comment "itd been easier to jsut kill Avery" came to mind...geez?

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Old 31st January 2016, 03:12 PM   #1797
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Quote:
At first the idea of a police killing someone is unimaginable
Why? They do it all the time. They just usually do it in the midst of some kind of confrontation, rather than by preplanning and design. Or...we could say "that's when we KNOW they do it".

Is it really farfetched to believe we have just as many LEOs who murder in cold blood as we do accountants, dentists, and truck drivers?

What would make being in law enforcement so magickally immune to the same character flaws as those in any other profession?
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Old 31st January 2016, 03:16 PM   #1798
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
How safe is the analysis that those are indeed bullet holes? Could they have resulted from destruction of cremains, e.g. with a pick of some sort?
True. They use the experts, the defense should have their own experts give an appraisal and scenario.

Sometimes lawyers think so differently than a CT does, Lawyers are focused to choose and win the case where we can sit for years and go over stuff. Like the person who noticed the picture with Teresa with a different set of keys, not the one Lenk "found".

If Lenk and Colburn planted the SUV it gives them access to the keys, and they could by taking the keys from the SUV, ensure no one drove off in it.

more to come for sure...
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Old 31st January 2016, 03:17 PM   #1799
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Originally Posted by JREF2010 View Post
At first the idea of a police killing someone is unimaginable, but when you place someones career and pension, and face saving to the community in the soup...you are right, they (Lenk & Colburn) definitely have huge motive.

add> that Petersen Sheriif making the comment "itd been easier to jsut kill Avery" came to mind...geez?
As I have conceded the Lenk theory was developed quickly by a far greater crime thinker than I will ever be, as the only solution. You know him, he used to post here.
The problem for Petersen's tidy solution is the relatives could carry on the action, or at least it would be hard for Lenk to know either way. Furthermore when someone is suing and ends up dead, other than in a brilliantly staged accident, the investigators must look straight at his enemies. He had them alright. But the Halbach idea was genius. "Sorry kid, nothing personal."

It worked ...... so far.

Meanwhile, piece by piece the jigsaw is going together with style. IMO.
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Old 31st January 2016, 03:20 PM   #1800
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Why? They do it all the time. They just usually do it in the midst of some kind of confrontation, rather than by preplanning and design. Or...we could say "that's when we KNOW they do it".

Is it really farfetched to believe we have just as many LEOs who murder in cold blood as we do accountants, dentists, and truck drivers?

What would make being in law enforcement so magickally immune to the same character flaws as those in any other profession?
your obviously correct, but you know by false tv andy griffith show standards priests and police are supposed to be honest....be as adults that innocence is a stinking lie.

I wonder if Lenk and Colburn knew Avery had a 22? Maybe they got too confident thinking they were the smartest crooks in the world! even wearing police uniforms to convince the jury and judge.

Where did Lenk get the 22 shell that he wiped Hallbachs DNA on it?
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