IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags "Making a Murderer" , Brendan Dassey , documentaries , murder cases , Steven Avery , Teresa Halbach , tv shows

Closed Thread
Old 14th February 2017, 11:27 AM   #3401
JREF2010
Graduate Poster
 
JREF2010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,786
Heres Brendans hearing.

Interesting the Prosecution says his cousin was obviously lying because she was crying during recant.....but Pam Strum and the Len/Detective were both crying too? hmm?

So according to the prosecution Pam and the Len/DetectiveOreily was lying?

http://fox6now.com/2017/02/14/appell...-inmates-case/

audio
JREF2010 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th February 2017, 07:48 AM   #3402
JREF2010
Graduate Poster
 
JREF2010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,786
Seems the decision will be around June? nothing in stone.

My reading is 73-IQ qualifys as mentally retarded, and Brendan without a lawyer during the interrogation with Factbender and Weaslegart should be tossed out.

On the second interrogation, "the setup" by fake Lawyer Len Kachinsky, who set Brendan up with the Crying Christian Detective ODell, who coerced Brendan to draw pictures of rape and murder aka "confess so I can help you".....is obvious to most humans I would think.

seems clear the prosecution should lose this one. however it is a court room so one never knows.... habeas vs nabeas come into play.

theres no physical evidence to support Brendans claims, of the murder rape in the trailer.
this seems to tilt it to Brendans release, imo.

the prosecution had a argument though in Brendan was telling the truth or imagined it. and "didnt appear to be coerced" per Judge Hamilton who stated he watched the video.(Hamilton was also on the panel who stopped Brendans release)
But thats only Judge Hamiltons opinion or reading faces, Judge Hamilton isnt an IQ of 73 so how would he know?

in the end its a mess, it could go either way....at least the interview was recorded. However the prosecution has hidden the May 13th , the first interrogation with Brendan, and one Judge brought that up. Why did they leave that out? Wheres that tape?

Is it a huge legal benefit for Steve if Brendan gets released?

One things for sure, there should be no murder interrogation of retarded witnesses without legal defense being present...come on...you dont need a PHD to know this, right?

Last edited by JREF2010; 15th February 2017 at 09:34 AM.
JREF2010 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th February 2017, 09:25 AM   #3403
JREF2010
Graduate Poster
 
JREF2010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,786
Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
Some states have open discovery, in which a prosecutor must disclose everything. I am not sure about Wisconsin.
What do you think about the carbon dating and technology to detect edta in 2017 vs 2007?

I was also wondering if you saw the actual DNA charts the FBI and Culhane delivered to the prosecution. Was it all standard RFU values etc..?

any inputs on what Zellners tests are going to show?
JREF2010 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th February 2017, 11:38 AM   #3404
Wayward son
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 541
Originally Posted by JREF2010 View Post
Is it a huge legal benefit for Steve if Brendan gets released?
Probably not. It would be if it was the other way around.

Listened to the oral arguments from earlier this week. I don't know which way the court will rule. I thought both judge Rovner and judge Williams were leaning towards BD, and judge Hamilton against, but there is really no way to know which way any of them will go. I am betting 5:1 (or maybe it is just biased hoping) that the court will uphold the ruling from last August overturning Dassey's conviction, and if that is the case I can't see the state re-prosecuting Dassey without having their only real piece of "evidence".

Last edited by Wayward son; 15th February 2017 at 11:58 AM.
Wayward son is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th February 2017, 01:56 PM   #3405
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 9,476
Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
Probably not. It would be if it was the other way around.

Listened to the oral arguments from earlier this week. I don't know which way the court will rule. I thought both judge Rovner and judge Williams were leaning towards BD, and judge Hamilton against, but there is really no way to know which way any of them will go. I am betting 5:1 (or maybe it is just biased hoping) that the court will uphold the ruling from last August overturning Dassey's conviction, and if that is the case I can't see the state re-prosecuting Dassey without having their only real piece of "evidence".
How did you listen to the oral arguments?
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th February 2017, 01:47 AM   #3406
Wayward son
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 541
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
How did you listen to the oral arguments?
Link
Wayward son is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th February 2017, 03:02 AM   #3407
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 9,476
Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
Thanks but not accessible from NZ for some reason.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th February 2017, 08:26 AM   #3408
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of)
Posts: 26,247
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Thanks but not accessible from NZ for some reason.

Try accessing it through a VPN. There are quite a few free ones out there. Even browser add-ons.

It will let you spoof your location so you can see things that are locked out by geography.
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th February 2017, 07:28 PM   #3409
AlaskaBushPilot
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 4,248
That was an interesting tape. One judge I didn't like at all. Bought into the prosecution argument that the cops can be this deceptive and manipulative to a kid the equivalent of 9 or 10 years old mentally.

The motive for the cops was to use Dassey to convict Steven Avery. So what if they over-did it a little bit and got Dassey to nearly admit cannibalism along with the other absurd "shot her, stabbed her, raped her, stomped her" guesses Brendan made.


A travesty if Dassey isn't released.
AlaskaBushPilot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th February 2017, 10:17 PM   #3410
Wayward son
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 541
Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
That was an interesting tape. One judge I didn't like at all. Bought into the prosecution argument that the cops can be this deceptive and manipulative to a kid the equivalent of 9 or 10 years old mentally.
That was judge David Hamilton. Interestingly enough he was Obama's first judical nomination (lifting him from the United States District Court for the Southern District of Indiana to the 7th circuit). The Republicans, especially Sessions and Inhofe, tried to filibuster him. Conservapedia and other christian fundamentalist right-wing people/organizations hate him based on a couple of his rulings. Also, interestingly, he was one of the three-judges who stayed Dassey's release a couple months ago.

I read a person or two who thought that Hamilton was just playing devil's advocate. But, I have my doubts based on the following interview from 8 years ago, and to be honest, he is correct in terms of what the current supreme court legal precedent is for voluntary confessions - as much as feel that it is travesty - there is very little wiggle room for BD:

(TL/DR - Hamilton goes into oral arguments having read the material and almost always with a preliminary standpoint. He questions/argues from that standpoint - in part to signal to the other judges where he stands and in part to probe what he feels are the biggest weaknesses for one (or both sides). He does change his mind/position after oral arguments, but only rarely - 2-10% of the time).

"LM: What is the value of oral argument to you?

Judge: Well, it depends. I met with a group of students recently in appellate practice who asked me in essence whether I approached oral argument fairly and objectively, and I said well, not really, no, because it’s rare for me to come in neutral. the expectation here among the members of the court is that you are sufficiently prepared to be ready to cast a vote after the arguments – a tentative vote but one that you are very likely to stick with – so that we want to do the hard thinking now while we’re all together for argument and for conference face-to-face. and so, what I get out of oral argument, regardless of the quality of the oral argument, is the opportunity to listen to and talk to my colleagues about the case for the first time. that’s really critical. as often as not, we’re talking to each other as much as we’re talking to the counsel in the case.

I try to go into an oral argument with both a preliminary view and some thoughts about what it might take to change my mind. Questions are usually aimed in that direction, as well as signaling to colleagues what I’m worried about, what I’m thinking about, particularly if you’re looking at a case that has multiple paths to different results or multiple paths to the same result. What’s most important? should we do this on procedural grounds? should we reach the substance of the dispute? The dialogue is pretty transparent, I think. you can watch our discussions and questions and probably make some pretty good guesses about likely votes.

I can tell you I always appreciated arguing in front of judge ripple because he would be quite explicit: “counsel, here’s my biggest problem with your side of the case.” In essence, “give me your best shot. What’s the best response you have to this potential weakness?” If I’m counsel in the case, those are the questions I want, and those are the questions that I try to ask as a judge.

But also, even if I’m not troubled about a case, I will frankly try to ask a question or two just so there’s some give-and-take discussion. We do ask counsel to come here to have a conversation about the cases, and I think we ought to go ahead and do that and not be a totally cold bench. Obviously there are times when we are way hotter than counsel may want or like.

this has come up in some particularly controversial cases where oral arguments may have been especially contentious. I would ask counsel to be a little patient with our impatience. I think I said this in an oral argument a year or two ago, in essence said, “counsel, we’ve read everything you wrote for us. this is our turn.” I know it’s frustrating for counsel not to be able to give a prepared speech about the strongest points in their case. that’s what I wanted to do in oral argument too. But for our purposes, our job is to probe the softest spots in the argument. this is our chance to talk back and wrestle with the arguments in the briefs, so please don’t take the interruptions amiss. time is limited, and if we are asking questions, it’s usually because it’s something we think is important.

LM: do oral arguments ever change your determination of which side should prevail on the appeal, in addition to shaping the opinion?

Judge: yes, it changes outcomes. It certainly shapes opinions, and somewhere between 2 and 10% of the time it will change outcomes. now, is that change the result of the brilliance of oral advocacy, a mistake in my preparation, or questions from a colleague that get me to see the case in a different light? all of the above. It can be any of those things. I try to be well prepared for oral argument, but there’s a reason there are three of us. and there are also situations in which somebody who has a good case may just not have written a very good brief, and we just don’t quite get it until we hear the oral argument.

Oral argument also helps shape the opinions. It is the opportunity for a group dialogue. I realize it’s highly stylized and formalistic, but you’re bringing together several minds, the judges and the counsel, to focus on the questions: What are the implications if we agree with you about this? Or this is a very confusing area of state practice; help explain this to us so we don’t mess it up. all kinds of ways that we’re helped by that.

We are generalists, and one of the difficult challenges of this job is that we’re doing very public work in areas where counsel are far more expert than we are. Oral argument is really a chance for us to kind of ask some dumb questions and make sure we understand the larger context in which this dispute arises."

Last edited by Wayward son; 16th February 2017 at 10:26 PM.
Wayward son is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 18th February 2017, 01:23 PM   #3411
JREF2010
Graduate Poster
 
JREF2010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,786
The Dateline show- Fassbender speaks. I have a reserved thing on him because he isnt taking in to account the evidence planting, so accepting Lenk and Colburns Magic Evidence Finding trick....he seems biased. But he doesnt seem "out to get Steve" like KKrapts does.

KenK is all about slanderous attacks, while Fassbender says "the evidence is overwhelming"....the blood...etc...the key..... so they perform the Brendan witch hunt, that makes sense.

FBender mentions the bones, the Key is quote "HUGE" to Fassbender.
So he seems biased on the evidence being overwhelming.

So there it is....I get this.

Ken is another story, he makes up fiction and tosses words and calls Steve psycopath on the Dateline show, blatantly calls Steve Avery a psycopath.

the elephant in the room is Lenk and Colburn, which isnt brought up "enough" to either.

add> on the Brendan interrogation, they asked Factbender about IQ and he did admit it is possible Brendan could be manipulated.
at times I read into him, that hes trying to support the prosecution/himself but also distancing himself from any ill-cop corruption if it went on. He seems to admit making mistakes etc. I dont think he knew anything about the IQ issue. He said he doesnt access IQ's.

He is definitely pro-Guilty and of course based on the evidence. I wonder if Lenk and Colburn were watching or RH and Ratdant

Last edited by JREF2010; 18th February 2017 at 02:03 PM.
JREF2010 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 18th February 2017, 04:29 PM   #3412
JREF2010
Graduate Poster
 
JREF2010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,786
Dateline- Sweaty Ken...says "Avery has no remorse for his behavior". "Hes/Averys a psychopath".

He claims Steve was calling TH and creeping her out, fixated on her, and answered the door in a towel....

it was odd to hear him talk about sexual creepiness knowing now he was busted for actually doing that, so its amazing how Ken Sweaty makes up these bizarre scenarios and thoughts that are not proven by any real data...like "hes a psycho path" or "he was creeping TH out"...a twisted imagination from someone who really did go pervert and Mr. Sweaty got called on it and busted.

I wont buy Mr. Sweatys book because the TV Fiction-Rape Murder on MaM is probably all the book is.

Factbender and Liegart at least would be a book of the cops viewpoint, probably duped by the fake evidence, so they went in totally blind-sided, duped by the fake evidence.
I would be surprised if Factbender and Liegart had anything to do with the planting of evidence. Neither of them had motive of the $36 million dollar lawsuit.

Sure they manipulated Brendan and werent good enough to investigate all people as suspects and do a good investigation.

I'll hold on to the Petersen/MCDS Kuchick Vogel...Lenk And COlburn as the evidence planters....or "Gardners".

Steves cousin knew the local cops had it out for him after his release from prison.
So she would lean towards Lenk/Colburn possible part of the actual murder.

Zellner stands confident the science is going to prove STeve was framed, she hasnt swayed from that at all.

FBender defends Colburn and Lenk were there because they are small towns and short on resources. So they all help, all the depts and agencys. So he didn find Lenk and Colburns ability to find all the evidence suspicious. hmmmm?

Last edited by JREF2010; 18th February 2017 at 04:31 PM.
JREF2010 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 18th February 2017, 05:22 PM   #3413
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 9,476
Originally Posted by JREF2010 View Post
Dateline- Sweaty Ken...says "Avery has no remorse for his behavior". "Hes/Averys a psychopath".

He claims Steve was calling TH and creeping her out, fixated on her, and answered the door in a towel....

it was odd to hear him talk about sexual creepiness knowing now he was busted for actually doing that, so its amazing how Ken Sweaty makes up these bizarre scenarios and thoughts that are not proven by any real data...like "hes a psycho path" or "he was creeping TH out"...a twisted imagination from someone who really did go pervert and Mr. Sweaty got called on it and busted.

I wont buy Mr. Sweatys book because the TV Fiction-Rape Murder on MaM is probably all the book is.

Factbender and Liegart at least would be a book of the cops viewpoint, probably duped by the fake evidence, so they went in totally blind-sided, duped by the fake evidence.
I would be surprised if Factbender and Liegart had anything to do with the planting of evidence. Neither of them had motive of the $36 million dollar lawsuit.

Sure they manipulated Brendan and werent good enough to investigate all people as suspects and do a good investigation.

I'll hold on to the Petersen/MCDS Kuchick Vogel...Lenk And COlburn as the evidence planters....or "Gardners".

Steves cousin knew the local cops had it out for him after his release from prison.
So she would lean towards Lenk/Colburn possible part of the actual murder.

Zellner stands confident the science is going to prove STeve was framed, she hasnt swayed from that at all.

FBender defends Colburn and Lenk were there because they are small towns and short on resources. So they all help, all the depts and agencys. So he didn find Lenk and Colburns ability to find all the evidence suspicious. hmmmm?
There is much made of the hole in the vial but Lenk just took the cork out, and enough blood to wet the qtip to paint it so it looked just like someone painting blood with a qtip.
He took a big risk by any standard, why?
Teresa was executed, the bullet trajectories show this. It looks like a cop who had a compliant subject with authority figure issuing calm instructions by her car, into which the body ws rolled straightaway for processing. She was shot by a left handed man and Lenk is left handed, I established that by watching him in a video.
But this seems implausible, Lenk was not personally liable for the law suit, and it would be difficult to be sure Avery had no alibi. In fact Avery had an outstanding alibi with the love call to Jodi at 5pm.
This alibi was ignored because no cop would plant evidence.
And so on, an enigma wrapped in a mystery and Catch 22 powers in from the sidelines declaring no cop would dare brazenly plant evidence, but he did. So did the relatives plant the evidence to jail Jeremy Bamber, and the cops to jail Arthur Thomas, and the cops to keep Raffaele Sollecito in jail when the shoeprints went sideways.....
And cops lie like flatfish, ask Mark Lundy, you can't get an innocent man behind bars without lying cops.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 18th February 2017, 10:06 PM   #3414
JREF2010
Graduate Poster
 
JREF2010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,786
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
There is much made of the hole in the vial but Lenk just took the cork out, and enough blood to wet the qtip to paint it so it looked just like someone painting blood with a qtip.
He took a big risk by any standard, why?
Teresa was executed, the bullet trajectories show this. It looks like a cop who had a compliant subject with authority figure issuing calm instructions by her car, into which the body ws rolled straightaway for processing. She was shot by a left handed man and Lenk is left handed, I established that by watching him in a video.
But this seems implausible, Lenk was not personally liable for the law suit, and it would be difficult to be sure Avery had no alibi. In fact Avery had an outstanding alibi with the love call to Jodi at 5pm.
This alibi was ignored because no cop would plant evidence.
And so on, an enigma wrapped in a mystery and Catch 22 powers in from the sidelines declaring no cop would dare brazenly plant evidence, but he did. So did the relatives plant the evidence to jail Jeremy Bamber, and the cops to jail Arthur Thomas, and the cops to keep Raffaele Sollecito in jail when the shoeprints went sideways.....
And cops lie like flatfish, ask Mark Lundy, you can't get an innocent man behind bars without lying cops.
I wondered about the Vial, is there any chance an entire Vial was taken?
The white styrofoam case holds several Vials, you can see the empty slots in the pictures. Seems someone would just take a Vial not take a little and put it back....but I suppose anything could happen.

the fact the styrofoam box was opened and not noted is sloppy keeping.
JREF2010 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 18th February 2017, 11:31 PM   #3415
Wayward son
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 541
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
There is much made of the hole in the vial but Lenk just took the cork out, and enough blood to wet the qtip to paint it so it looked just like someone painting blood with a qtip.
Zellner has said that the blood was planted, but Buting and Strang are incorrect when it comes to how. I suspect that the blood - if planted as Zellner says she has evidence for - does not come from the vial, but most likely from dried blood perhaps within the trailer - my guess is the bathroom sink - or perhaps in a work area - SA had a recent cut and there could be dried blood on a rag, bandage, anything - and it was reconstituted with something like normal saline (something most emergency vehicles would have) in order to transfer via swab.

Quote:
She was shot by a left handed man
How could this be known?
Wayward son is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th February 2017, 12:17 AM   #3416
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 9,476
Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
Zellner has said that the blood was planted, but Buting and Strang are incorrect when it comes to how. I suspect that the blood - if planted as Zellner says she has evidence for - does not come from the vial, but most likely from dried blood perhaps within the trailer - my guess is the bathroom sink - or perhaps in a work area - SA had a recent cut and there could be dried blood on a rag, bandage, anything - and it was reconstituted with something like normal saline (something most emergency vehicles would have) in order to transfer via swab.



How could this be known?
Zellner is playing a long game, and she may be releasing red herrings. Lenk is known to have had access to the vial, the cork shows it has blood staining on the side consistent with remove and replace. I am confident this is how the blood was planted.
The shots to Teresa were downwards and from the left rear of the skull. They were angled differently to probably ensure quick death. This looks like a left handed execution of a victim who was obeying instructions.
However I see difficulties with Lenk being this executioner, and Zellner says the phone call deletions are pivotal.
We need a detective from fiction to reveal the narrative that pulls all together.
Holmes, Poirot?
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th February 2017, 10:40 AM   #3417
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 47,181
Originally Posted by JREF2010 View Post
I wondered about the Vial, is there any chance an entire Vial was taken?
The white styrofoam case holds several Vials, you can see the empty slots in the pictures. Seems someone would just take a Vial not take a little and put it back....but I suppose anything could happen.

the fact the styrofoam box was opened and not noted is sloppy keeping.

Those boxes are made like that so that several tubes can be stored if need be, but there's no evidence at all there was ever more than one tube in this instance. There would be no reason for more than one to be collected.

The hole in the rubber bung is absolutely typical of the hole that's made by the other end of the double-pointed needle when that rather outdated design of vacutainer is used as indended. I've used bazillions of the things and that is how they look. (The design has since been changed because blood on the outside of a collection vial is not held to be good 'elf'n'safety these days.)
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th February 2017, 07:52 PM   #3418
JREF2010
Graduate Poster
 
JREF2010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,786
DEC 1,2016The nine items of evidence that Zellner asked to undergo advanced testing will be released to Calumet County Sheriff's Lt. Mark Wiegert and his agency’s evidence custodian at a time and date agreed upon by Wiegert’s agency and the clerk of the Circuit Court for Manitowoc County.

Once Wiegert receives the exhibits, he will bring them to the State Crime Laboratory in Madison, where the samples will be split in half. Sherry Culhane, the state’s DNA analyst, will split the evidence while consulting with Dr. Karl Reich, a forensic scientist from the Chicago area. Reich was designated by Zellner’s law firm to help facilitate the independent testing process.

“However, if cutting (the floor blood flakes) in half will result in an insufficient sample to conduct Radiocarbon testing, the state agrees that the entire sample may be consumed to facilitate testing,” the agreement stated.

Zellner’s firm will pay all the costs associated with the scientific testing.

The agreement does not specify a time frame when the tests on the nine articles of evidence will be completed, but Zellner told USA TODAY NETWORK last week that she anticipated the testing could be done in 60 to 90 days.


Jan, Feb.....March. the suspense builds...
JREF2010 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th February 2017, 08:00 PM   #3419
JREF2010
Graduate Poster
 
JREF2010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,786
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Those boxes are made like that so that several tubes can be stored if need be, but there's no evidence at all there was ever more than one tube in this instance. There would be no reason for more than one to be collected.

The hole in the rubber bung is absolutely typical of the hole that's made by the other end of the double-pointed needle when that rather outdated design of vacutainer is used as indended. I've used bazillions of the things and that is how they look. (The design has since been changed because blood on the outside of a collection vial is not held to be good 'elf'n'safety these days.)
I havent read anything about a missing vial, just wondering.
Steve makes some comment in his 2nd arrest interrogation "they have a bunch of blood " from him. I wonder how many times they visited him for blood?

yeah, the hole in the cap was removed as a big-event, the styrofoam evidence seal box opened and sloppy storage leaves it open to suspect.

the burdens on the defense for sure and the target suspects seem to be four people specifically.

the broken tailight is interesting, RH made the lie about it and the courts didnt allow it to be tested. strange?
JREF2010 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th February 2017, 08:19 PM   #3420
JREF2010
Graduate Poster
 
JREF2010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,786
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Zellner is playing a long game, and she may be releasing red herrings. Lenk is known to have had access to the vial, the cork shows it has blood staining on the side consistent with remove and replace. I am confident this is how the blood was planted.
Thats how I read it too, Zellner is putting the tests on the vial. That was the original source for planting. Maybe it changed as the work began?
Interesting in Zellners tweet on how it happened is different. What data made her say that? hmmm?

Its not a mystery anymore who Zellner says it is.
JR was on the property 4 times after it was closed to public, RH was using false names. Person A and Person B. Will the cell phone and deleted vm's be more key than the DNA? I dont know.

The results should be out of the labs soon. Some probably already completed.
Zellner said 60-90 days in Dec 1 so end of Feb, should be about it.
JREF2010 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th February 2017, 09:54 AM   #3421
JREF2010
Graduate Poster
 
JREF2010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,786
I cant help but wonder what if.....the results are inconclusive at the lab.

What are the requirements and expectations for the tests?

I understand if its RC14 says 1995 blood, or EDTA detected. Thats slam dunk.

But what if its just blurred, like the Sollecito DNA charts where there were other "unknowns" or the RFU was below normal, or if Wiegarts and Culhanes want to do another test and delays it longer and gets different results 2yrs from now...
all these other possibilities.

Zellner has the tower info, and some witness she said came forward like they always do when the testing starts. Its not TV, so there are the HAbeus Maybe-us stuff that can ignore finding the truth due to legalities and political votes.

And does Zellner have any more chances at testing the other items this Judge rejected? like the bones from the quarry, the broken light, the hood latch, the fingerprints?

Did Culhane have to turn over all her RAW data from her tests to really determine if she had any abnormal interpretations or bias in her testing?
The fact they didnt allow the Defense to be present due to lab contamination, but then Culhane said she was training a class around the evidence being tested screams foul play.

It all comes back to the prosecutors in these cases.
They want to win at all costs and become blind and ignorant.
They forget part of their job is protecting the innocent too, like the defendants.
The Prosecutions job is to get the criminals but also protect the innocent people from being imprisoned with wrongful convictions.

Maybe Lenk and Colburn duped them all.....Krafty, Factbender, all of them by creating the "mountain of evidence". If you believe the evidence is real, the key the SUV, the blood, the bullet then it would seem odd people support Steve Avery.
JREF2010 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th February 2017, 12:34 PM   #3422
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 25,810
Avery wrote a letter to Kratz about making money together.

Originally Posted by DailyMail
Steven Avery begged the lead prosecutor of his trial, who many Making a Murderer viewers believe had him wrongly convicted of murder, to represent him in an appeal - and bragged that they could "get money together" from the case.

In a chilling prison letter, shown exclusively to DailyMail.com, Avery then tries to pin the blame for the murder of Teresa Halbach on an innocent family member.

In the letter, which did not appear in the hit Netflix series, Avery writes: "You don't work for the State no more so why don't you take my appeal?"

"You know the case and you got Candy Avery."

"See we can all get money together."

"This would be the truth that she Candy did it good."

"See you can call up here a [sic] talk to me as a [sic] Attorney on my case!!! action right?"

In scrawled handwriting he adds: "You and another attorney can take it right? Let me know soon."...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...esent-him.html
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th February 2017, 01:24 PM   #3423
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 9,476
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Avery wrote a letter to Kratz about making money together.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...esent-him.html
That is more compelling evidence, imagine someone who had done a crime asking to be represented at appeal by a prosecutor.
Just trying to picture it.
Avery clearly expects the truth to emerge, but like all those in the can his case knowledge is poor.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st February 2017, 10:08 AM   #3424
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 25,810
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
That is more compelling evidence, imagine someone who had done a crime asking to be represented at appeal by a prosecutor.
Just trying to picture it.
Avery clearly expects the truth to emerge, but like all those in the can his case knowledge is poor.
Why doesn't Steven believe that the police killed Teresa in order to frame him? Why does he believe that Candy Avery killed her?
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st February 2017, 11:33 AM   #3425
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 9,476
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Why doesn't Steven believe that the police killed Teresa in order to frame him? Why does he believe that Candy Avery killed her?
I'm not sure how good Steven is with a gun, but did he shoot her execution style? Where did he shoot her?
Are you suggesting he did the crime?
If he didn't the letter makes limited sense, if he did the letter is quite ridiculous.
But I realise Kratz brandishes it to make his work look righteous, he just has no comprehension of the absurdity involved in a guilty man suggesting a prosecutor might help him at appeal.
I think Kratz saw a slam dunk with the blood in the car, and I have some sympathy for him. How could he realise Lenk had planted it?
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st February 2017, 02:17 PM   #3426
DragonLady
Illuminator
 
DragonLady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,588
Quote:
Why doesn't Steven believe that the police killed Teresa in order to frame him?
Why would he?

If I were in his shoes -and innocent- I would think someone else killed her, but that the police were dead set believing it was me, and so planted evidence to be certain the whole world knew it, even if the jury didn't convict.

I might be tempted to do the same, if I completely believed an individual had committed a terrible crime, but wasn't certain there would be enough evidence to prosecute or convict.
__________________
http://www.troubador.co.uk/book_info.asp?bookid=2499

“She would be half a planet away, floating in a turquoise sea, dancing by moonlight to flamenco guitar.” ~ Janet Fitch

The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One
DragonLady is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2017, 01:57 AM   #3427
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,919
Originally Posted by JREF2010 View Post
So for the Hoodlatch the DNA was there because:

a) Steve licked the hoodlatch
b) Someone planted it
Forensic DNA kits have been able to profile touch traces since at least 1998. Skin is a poor DNA donor, but if you touch something, you still leave enough DNA there to get an accurate profile in some cases. This could easily be one of such cases, because the car hood is heavy enough for you to leave an appreciable amount of DNA there and because it's protected from rain and dew. More modern kits, in use since about the time of the murder, greatly increase the likelihood of obtaining something useful.

I wonder if they tested the steering wheel of the Rav4. The results of that could be very telling.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه

Last edited by McHrozni; 22nd February 2017 at 01:59 AM.
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2017, 03:05 AM   #3428
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,919
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Those boxes are made like that so that several tubes can be stored if need be, but there's no evidence at all there was ever more than one tube in this instance. There would be no reason for more than one to be collected.

The hole in the rubber bung is absolutely typical of the hole that's made by the other end of the double-pointed needle when that rather outdated design of vacutainer is used as indended. I've used bazillions of the things and that is how they look. (The design has since been changed because blood on the outside of a collection vial is not held to be good 'elf'n'safety these days.)
Out of curiosity, what do you do for a living?

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2017, 03:35 AM   #3429
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 47,181
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Out of curiosity, what do you do for a living?

I'm a vet who specialises in clinical biochemistry and haematology. I've been using vacutainer tubes just like that since I was a student in the early 1970s.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2017, 04:01 AM   #3430
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,919
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm a vet who specialises in clinical biochemistry and haematology. I've been using vacutainer tubes just like that since I was a student in the early 1970s.
Aha, I see

I realize this is a tad off topic, but it's just a quick question of personal interest - how do you draw blood from a small dog (8 kg range)? Do you use a smaller vacutainer for animals of such size?

Since it's entirely off topic, can you answer in PM? Thanks

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2017, 04:33 AM   #3431
monro
New Blood
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1
Red face Bullets

I recently decided to watch, Making a Murderer, and like many of you, didnt know what to think. Guilty?? Innocent??

There are so many variables that it got confusing really quick....so many questions?

I have read all these pages and now seem to have a better understanding, of some of the facts.

The one that has really bothered me, I have not seen answered. Maybe someone can enlighted me, as I have no knowledge of forensics.

If TH was shot in the head, would the bullet not have lodged in her brain?
And if it did lodge in her brain, wouldn't this bullet have had brain matter on it if it did come out, as they say?
But if it didnt come out and stayed lodged, wouldnt it have been found in the fire and ash with the skull?

I do believe that Colborn and Lenk did have something to do with planting of evidence but as to his innocence or quilt, I am still on the fence.
monro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2017, 06:09 AM   #3432
JREF2010
Graduate Poster
 
JREF2010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,786
I dont know how much more they will study the bullet. The 22 Merlin rifle is a common rifle. Bobby Dassey had one too. The skepticism I have towards anything found so much later and under so many other skeptical views associated to anything Lenk and Colburn are associated with leaves the bullet a weak piece of evidence. Its another sample I would like to see more of the SCulhane DNA reports and graphs and have someone like Chris H here explain it. The bullet was severely deformed obviously and the police had access to the rifle from the trailer Steve lived in (though it wasnt his rifle it was in the trailer). The control sample ran with the bullet was also contaminated with SC own DNA which some say destroys the test credibility. She couldnt retest it because there wasnt enough DNA to retest.
Even more suspiciously usually the Defense can assign someone to be present during testing in the lab but they prevented that request stating "too many people in the lab causes problems and possible contamination" excuse but SC says on the stand she sneezed or something on the sample control and this happened while she training some lab techs. The fact they had lab tech training going on seems conflicting with what they told the Defense. And you saw the memo sent to SC to place Avery at the garage or trailer.....once again 400 some samples showed nothing, until oddly Lenk and MCSD is around and they do their "magic evidence finding trick" again.

Im reading the site on RH, there was a question on why they didnt test the plastic hood release latch in the SUV, it should have had blood and DNA from Steve in addition to the supposed hood latch. good points. Also the very noticeable scrapes and cuts on RH hands are captured in pictures.

Zellner has much more info and she only added RH and JR as the main susupects, Lenk and Colburn the "gardners".....is she right?
JREF2010 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2017, 09:15 AM   #3433
Chris_Halkides
Penultimate Amazing
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,042
ABA model rules on DNA evidence

The ABA model rules for DNA evidence have a section for tests that consume the whole sample:

Standard 3.4 Consumptive testing

(a) When possible, a portion of the DNA evidence tested and, when possible, a portion of any extract from the DNA evidence should be preserved for further testing.

(b) A laboratory should not undertake testing that entirely consumes DNA evidence or the extract from it without the prior approval of the prosecutor if a law enforcement officer is requesting the testing, or of defense counsel if the testing is requested by defense counsel or defense counsel’s agent.

(c) Before approving a test that entirely consumes DNA evidence or the extract from it, the prosecutor should provide any defendant against whom an accusatorial instrument has been filed, or any suspect who has requested prior notice, an opportunity to object and move for an appropriate court order.

(d) Before approving a test that entirely consumes DNA evidence or the extract from it, the attorney for any defendant against whom an accusatorial instrument has been filed, or for any other person who intends to conduct such a test, should provide the prosecutor an opportunity to object and move for an appropriate court order.

(e) If a motion objecting to consumptive testing is filed, the court should consider ordering procedures that would permit an independent evaluation of the analysis, including but not limited to the presence of an expert representing the moving party during evidence preparation and testing, and videotaping or photographing the preparation and testing.
__________________
It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz)
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 08:06 PM   #3434
JREF2010
Graduate Poster
 
JREF2010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,786
I wonder who will be on the "hook" for the money when the wrongfully convicted sue this time? It's such a bizarre case. How many people have been wrongfully convicted twice, its a lot of lawsuit dollars no doubt.

Zellner- today

we know winning petitions to vacate convictions take time-ahead of schedule- evidence of innocence piles up.
JREF2010 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th February 2017, 02:53 AM   #3435
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 9,476
I bought Shaun Attwood's book on Kindle cloud.

I like this guy, he has all the credentials of a stray activist, none, yet these cases are always progressed this way. Damien Echolls married his stray activist, they would never have killed him, but she got him out.

I like this passage from Atwell for an essay in confirmation bias.

For testing, bullets were sent to DNA Analyst Sherry Culhane, whose lab notes showed direction from Special Agent Tom Fassbender directing her to “try to put [Teresa] in [Steven’s] house or garage.” She went on to testify that the expectation “had no bearing on my analysis at all,” which was her attempt to cover her tracks after the conspiracy had been exposed. As part of a team effort to frame Steven, Sherry violated critical aspects of scientific protocol. Sherry had also played a role in Steven’s first wrongful conviction. After comparing a hair from Steven’s T-shirt with a hair found on Penny Beerntsen, Sherry had concluded that the hairs were a possible match. When prosecutor Vogel’s role in Steven’s first wrongful conviction was on the verge of being exposed, Vogel blamed the conviction on Sherry’s hair analysis. It also took Sherry over a year to carry out the DNA test that exonerated Steven in the Beerntsen case. Sherry found traces of Teresa’s DNA on the bullet from Steven’s garage, while also finding traces of her own DNA on the control samples. The test was contaminated. She should have performed the test again, but that option wasn’t available because she had used up the entire sample. To put Teresa in Steven’s garage, Sherry ignored the protocol and glossed over problems because the test results gave Kratz exactly what he was looking for.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th February 2017, 03:57 AM   #3436
JREF2010
Graduate Poster
 
JREF2010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,786
This will be interesting when they put the bullet under the real professionals microscope. The Raw Data, the charts and full transparency exposed.
SC will once again be found to be corrupt and incompetent....but disturbing.
Seems so many cases nothing happens to the State employees when caught, as if they are immune from telling the truth and protected from perjury and being corrupt. They are allowed to keep their jobs and become repeat offenders.

Anyone think SC was another one smirking , like Colburn, in the MaM, as they sat on the stand?

Like an arrogance she had knowing the defense are powerless schmucks, the defense is a joke to her. Possibly because the Defense dont know the secret, its all rigged.
JREF2010 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th February 2017, 04:28 AM   #3437
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 9,476
Originally Posted by JREF2010 View Post
This will be interesting when they put the bullet under the real professionals microscope. The Raw Data, the charts and full transparency exposed.
SC will once again be found to be corrupt and incompetent....but disturbing.
Seems so many cases nothing happens to the State employees when caught, as if they are immune from telling the truth and protected from perjury and being corrupt. They are allowed to keep their jobs and become repeat offenders.

Anyone think SC was another one smirking , like Colburn, in the MaM, as they sat on the stand?

Like an arrogance she had knowing the defense are powerless schmucks, the defense is a joke to her. Possibly because the Defense dont know the secret, its all rigged.
You know of course that they become judges and senators.
There is no way around it yet.
Promotions and plaudits, the most disturbing is dude that sentenced Damien Echols to death, denied his appeal, and is now a state senator.
Disturbing, disturbing, check him out ( name eludes me right now but my facts are correct)
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th February 2017, 01:41 AM   #3438
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,919
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
For testing, bullets were sent to DNA Analyst Sherry Culhane, whose lab notes showed direction from Special Agent Tom Fassbender directing her to “try to put [Teresa] in [Steven’s] house or garage.” She went on to testify that the expectation “had no bearing on my analysis at all,” which was her attempt to cover her tracks after the conspiracy had been exposed. As part of a team effort to frame Steven, Sherry violated critical aspects of scientific protocol. Sherry had also played a role in Steven’s first wrongful conviction. After comparing a hair from Steven’s T-shirt with a hair found on Penny Beerntsen, Sherry had concluded that the hairs were a possible match. When prosecutor Vogel’s role in Steven’s first wrongful conviction was on the verge of being exposed, Vogel blamed the conviction on Sherry’s hair analysis. It also took Sherry over a year to carry out the DNA test that exonerated Steven in the Beerntsen case. Sherry found traces of Teresa’s DNA on the bullet from Steven’s garage, while also finding traces of her own DNA on the control samples. The test was contaminated. She should have performed the test again, but that option wasn’t available because she had used up the entire sample. To put Teresa in Steven’s garage, Sherry ignored the protocol and glossed over problems because the test results gave Kratz exactly what he was looking for.
How does her own DNA in a control sample invalidate the presence of Steven Averies' DNA in a different sample? I remember that from the show, and it was never explained. I am somewhat familiar with the tests, and near as I can tell, the greatest danger of such contamination is that you'll generate a mixture of technicians' DNA and that of the interest of the investigation, complicating the interpretation, maybe even make it impossible to study.

This clearly wasn't the case here. What is therefore your basis for dismissing the result due to the contamination from a known source?

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th February 2017, 01:42 AM   #3439
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,919
Originally Posted by monro View Post
I recently decided to watch, Making a Murderer, and like many of you, didnt know what to think. Guilty?? Innocent??
It's quite possible Steven Avery is guilty, but the breaches of protocol by the police impart me with reasonable doubt. A more balanced view than the heavily biased one from the series could dispel those.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th February 2017, 03:20 AM   #3440
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 9,476
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
It's quite possible Steven Avery is guilty, but the breaches of protocol by the police impart me with reasonable doubt. A more balanced view than the heavily biased one from the series could dispel those.

McHrozni
McHrozni:

You have scientific knowledge yet appear to embrace a Schrodinger's cat reality here. Status unknown. This is abject nonsense surely like the waif a little pregnant. Evidence was planted, Steve has alibis for Africa, and she was shot in the back of the head execution style then incinerated.
Why in God's good name do you see uncertainty?
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:26 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.