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Tags "Making a Murderer" , Brendan Dassey , documentaries , murder cases , Steven Avery , Teresa Halbach , tv shows

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Old 12th May 2017, 08:58 AM   #3641
Wayward son
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
We disagree here, at least to the "wasting your time" bit. If she argues ineffective assistance of counsel, with or without DNA, she's got a shot (statistically, see: https://www.innocenceproject.org/wp-...IAC_Report.pdf) of about 8 to 20% for reversal.
I wasn't trying to make the statement that ineffective counsel is always a waste of time, just that based on Zellner's past strategy it would be. Any lawyer could take over this case and make that argument, and while that strategy has a low success rate in general, it's likelihood of success when SA had two highly paid and well-respected lawyers and most ineffective counsel successes had court appointed completely incompetent and sometimes drunk representation. While it is possible that ineffective counsel will be a part of her strategy, it will be a minor part. Ferguson's original counsel was completely incompetent, but the prosecution and the rest of the legal system were completely underhanded and unethical. Zellner is after the big fish and exposing the big fish is what leads to $100 million civil suits (as is the case with Ferguson).

Quote:
There is another possibility - she still believes he didn't do it, but hasn't found strong evidence either way.

It's been a year. How long do you think it will take?
It took more than 4 years in the Ferguson case. She not only had to compile all the evidence (there was no physical evidence against him, simply a story line that was impossible), but she had to get every witness to recant their testimony and admit to the pressure and the threats that the prosecution used against them to get them to lie on the stand. It often takes a long time to get any of these people to agree to meet with you. It would likely take a lot more with the SA case because of the publicity. I don't know if she would go after all the people who testified in this case, as she has physical evidence to work with, but if she has a witness who counters the official story, which she has claimed she has at least one, she would be using that to slowly put pressure on all of the other witnesses. For 6 months she has had the pieces of evidence that she asked for new testing on. She had originally said that the testing for those items would be done around the end of March, but there was a delay before she received the items. I would imagine that we will hear something by late June, early July.

Maybe she is wrong this time. But the length of time that has occurred so far is not a concern. She is not interested in inflicting a crack in the dike. Her goal is to blow it up.
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Old 12th May 2017, 10:19 AM   #3642
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Originally Posted by Kaosium View Post
I came across this site in trying to answer my own question, here's what they wrote about that:



I don't find all these arguments convincing, for example I'm pretty damn sure every cop knows they can check the tenth digit of the VIN (which on a '99 Rav 4 is visible through the window on the driver's side dash) for the model year, and if necessary could pop the hood and check the catalyst sticker, so I don't think the explanation above is absolutely convincing, but the basic idea of the call simply being a double-check is not implausible to me.
Here is what Buting wrote

These tapes included calls the dispatcher had received on a phone line instead of via radio. Detectives and officers seemed to speak so freely in these phone calls that I had to wonder if even they knew they were being recorded. It was like listening to the Nixon Watergate tapes, only with slightly less profanity. In this unexpected gold mine of detail was the call Colborn made to the dispatcher about the license plate on Teresa Halbach’s car two days before the vehicle officially turned up. During Avery’s trial, Dean established that the call transcript read similarly to what an officer might say if he came upon a vehicle while on patrol. After the dispatcher read off the plate numbers, Colborn asked, “A ’99 Toyota?” This sounded suspiciously like Colborn had been looking at Teresa’s 1999 Toyota RAV4 when he made that call. But how could this be, if Teresa’s vehicle had not even been found yet? Unless, perhaps, Colborn really had found it but didn’t for some reason report the discovery.
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Old 12th May 2017, 08:10 PM   #3643
marplots
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Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
(much snipped)
Maybe she is wrong this time. But the length of time that has occurred so far is not a concern. She is not interested in inflicting a crack in the dike. Her goal is to blow it up.
You give a compelling explanation. I'm convinced.
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Old 12th May 2017, 08:16 PM   #3644
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Here is what Buting wrote

These tapes included calls the dispatcher had received on a phone line instead of via radio. Detectives and officers seemed to speak so freely in these phone calls that I had to wonder if even they knew they were being recorded. It was like listening to the Nixon Watergate tapes, only with slightly less profanity. In this unexpected gold mine of detail was the call Colborn made to the dispatcher about the license plate on Teresa Halbach’s car two days before the vehicle officially turned up. During Avery’s trial, Dean established that the call transcript read similarly to what an officer might say if he came upon a vehicle while on patrol. After the dispatcher read off the plate numbers, Colborn asked, “A ’99 Toyota?” This sounded suspiciously like Colborn had been looking at Teresa’s 1999 Toyota RAV4 when he made that call. But how could this be, if Teresa’s vehicle had not even been found yet? Unless, perhaps, Colborn really had found it but didn’t for some reason report the discovery.
One side said it is best explained by him looking at the RAV-4. The other says this is a normal, checking of information thing.

There's a test that could be done. How often, on the tapes (say, going back a year) does this cop do the same "checking?" If never, it means he was probably looking at TH's vehicle. If "lots" then probably not.

The data exists.
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Old 12th May 2017, 08:32 PM   #3645
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
One side said it is best explained by him looking at the RAV-4. The other says this is a normal, checking of information thing.

There's a test that could be done. How often, on the tapes (say, going back a year) does this cop do the same "checking?" If never, it means he was probably looking at TH's vehicle. If "lots" then probably not.

The data exists.
Is there a legitimate reason to allow the cops two days to "find" the car after establishing where it was?

After all it was a minor matter of a missing person who the cops had already claimed was dead. I think already.
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Old 12th May 2017, 08:39 PM   #3646
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Shaun Attwood comes up with this theory

Pam, knowing Mike Halbach was familiar with the Avery lot, asked him to go with her for a look-see. She probably called Colborn (the first bridge to law enforcement) and mentioned her and Mike’s plan. Colborn probably couldn’t resist and met them out there. This was on the 3rd, the same day Teresa was reported missing. The sun set on the 3rd around 5:45 pm, with Teresa being reported missing at 4 pm. They were a bit spread out during the search, with Colborn coming across the RAV4 first. Knowing that he didn’t have a warrant, he called dispatch on his cell phone instead of his official radio. At the moment dispatch said Teresa’s name, you can hear Pam in the background exclaiming “The car is here!” as she walked up to it. Colborn didn’t realize his 911 call had been recorded. You can see how surprised he was on the stand when they played back his call. He hadn’t expected to hear himself, and was unprepared to explain why he had described the vehicle as a ’99 after reciting the license plate, indicating he was in the presence of the RAV4. The next day, Friday the 4th, knowing Teresa’s car was on the compound, Colborn approached the Averys and first spoke with Steven’s parents. At some point, Steven was questioned about meeting Teresa. Steven gave them an unabashed account of Teresa’s visit. He let Colborn do a cursory check of his residence without a warrant. Colborn was fishing. Steven let him search his place, but Colborn found nothing. Colborn admitted to Lenk that he had found Teresa’s car on the 3rd without a warrant. Lenk, not asking to be, was now complicit. He wasn’t going to rat out Colborn, and still had it out for Steven. Once Lenk realized he was complicit in an illegal search, he was more inclined to do other illegal things to protect himself. He was already complicit with Colborn for covering their butts in 1995 about the Gregory Allen tip for which he was about to be deposed. Knowing there was nothing out of place according to Colborn’s search of Steven’s home, Lenk decided to plant blood evidence and remove the license plates the evening of the 4th. This helped to distance Colborn from the RAV4 regarding the plates. Lenk did this alone. No one else had to know about the blood. Lenk and Colborn in good faith at that time were sure beyond the shadow of a doubt that Steven had done it – just like the meth users had anticipated. Why would Lenk cross to the dark side?
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Old 12th May 2017, 11:32 PM   #3647
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
One side said it is best explained by him looking at the RAV-4. The other says this is a normal, checking of information thing.

There's a test that could be done. How often, on the tapes (say, going back a year) does this cop do the same "checking?" If never, it means he was probably looking at TH's vehicle. If "lots" then probably not.

The data exists.
Yes; that has occurred to me, too.

If it's a routine thing to do, then there must be other logs of it being done.
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Old 13th May 2017, 07:41 AM   #3648
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What Culhane left out of her report

In Mr. Buting's book, he quotes (p. 243) some of his cross-examination of Sherry Culhane concerning the positive result from the negative control:
Q. At no time, in this report, do you ever disclose, that in order to make that finding, you had to deviate from a protocol, did you?
A. No.
Q. Anyone reading this report would never know that, in order for you to make that call and say that that's Teresa Halbach's DNA, you had to do something you have never done in your career as a crime lab analyst, right?
A. Without discovery, no.

Concerning the DNA evidence in the Duke lacrosse case, Professor Paul Giannelli said words to the effect that a defense attorney should not have to search through a haystack to find an exculpatory needle. The same principle holds here. Professor Giannelli was the reporter for the ABA's committee which drafted the model rules for DNA evidence. I have less respect for Ms. Culhane and the laboratory than I did before, which is no mean feat.
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Old 13th May 2017, 09:08 AM   #3649
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
In Mr. Buting's book, he quotes (p. 243) some of his cross-examination of Sherry Culhane concerning the positive result from the negative control:
Q. At no time, in this report, do you ever disclose, that in order to make that finding, you had to deviate from a protocol, did you?
A. No.
Q. Anyone reading this report would never know that, in order for you to make that call and say that that's Teresa Halbach's DNA, you had to do something you have never done in your career as a crime lab analyst, right?
A. Without discovery, no.

Concerning the DNA evidence in the Duke lacrosse case, Professor Paul Giannelli said words to the effect that a defense attorney should not have to search through a haystack to find an exculpatory needle. The same principle holds here. Professor Giannelli was the reporter for the ABA's committee which drafted the model rules for DNA evidence. I have less respect for Ms. Culhane and the laboratory than I did before, which is no mean feat.
The needle you mention is overblown. It would be great news for the defence if there was Steven Averys' DNA in the negative control, but not the DNA of the analyst.

The focus defense puts on the presence of DNA of the analyst in the negative control makes me skeptical they have anything good to present.

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Old 13th May 2017, 09:27 AM   #3650
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It's the cover-up

If she really thought that this were no big deal, then Sherry Culhane should have disclosed it in her report. But (as the cross-examination highlighted) she did something that she had never done before. It's not the size of the needle; it's the fact that it was placed in the haystack that counts against the credibility of the lab.
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Old 13th May 2017, 10:16 AM   #3651
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
If she really thought that this were no big deal, then Sherry Culhane should have disclosed it in her report. But (as the cross-examination highlighted) she did something that she had never done before. It's not the size of the needle; it's the fact that it was placed in the haystack that counts against the credibility of the lab.
This. It forces one to wonder what other things were not found in discovery, just because the lab is usually trusted to follow established procedures and be impartial as to the results.

Remember: the defense team wasn't allowed to be present for fear of contamination, yet other people (apparently unconnected to the case) were.

It throws a ray of suspicion where there should be none.
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Old 13th May 2017, 12:31 PM   #3652
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consumptive DNA testing and the ABA standards

DragonLady,

"(e) If a motion objecting to consumptive testing is filed, the court should consider ordering procedures that would permit an independent evaluation of the analysis, including but not limited to the presence of an expert representing the moving party during evidence preparation and testing, and videotaping or photographing the preparation and testing."
From Standard 3.4 Consumptive testing, written by the American Bar Association.

I have posted this before. I don't know whether or not the defense objected to consumptive testing. But the principle is clear; the defense should have been able to observe in person or at least with video. And the presence of other people eviscerates the rationale given for refusing to let the defense observe.

I wish I shared your optimistic assessment of the impartiality of forensic labs. As long as they are part of law enforcement, they will favor the prosecution over the defense. Labs need to become independent of police.
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Old 13th May 2017, 12:57 PM   #3653
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Quote:
Labs need to become independent of police
I agree. I'm not sure why I always assumed they were.
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Old 14th May 2017, 06:56 PM   #3654
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Shaun Attwood comes up with this theory

Pam, knowing Mike Halbach was familiar with the Avery lot, asked him to go with her for a look-see. She probably called Colborn (the first bridge to law enforcement) and mentioned her and Mike’s plan. Colborn probably couldn’t resist and met them out there. This was on the 3rd, the same day Teresa was reported missing. The sun set on the 3rd around 5:45 pm, with Teresa being reported missing at 4 pm. They were a bit spread out during the search, with Colborn coming across the RAV4 first. Knowing that he didn’t have a warrant, he called dispatch on his cell phone instead of his official radio. At the moment dispatch said Teresa’s name, you can hear Pam in the background exclaiming “The car is here!” as she walked up to it. Colborn didn’t realize his 911 call had been recorded. You can see how surprised he was on the stand when they played back his call. He hadn’t expected to hear himself, and was unprepared to explain why he had described the vehicle as a ’99 after reciting the license plate, indicating he was in the presence of the RAV4. The next day, Friday the 4th, knowing Teresa’s car was on the compound, Colborn approached the Averys and first spoke with Steven’s parents. At some point, Steven was questioned about meeting Teresa. Steven gave them an unabashed account of Teresa’s visit. He let Colborn do a cursory check of his residence without a warrant. Colborn was fishing. Steven let him search his place, but Colborn found nothing. Colborn admitted to Lenk that he had found Teresa’s car on the 3rd without a warrant. Lenk, not asking to be, was now complicit. He wasn’t going to rat out Colborn, and still had it out for Steven. Once Lenk realized he was complicit in an illegal search, he was more inclined to do other illegal things to protect himself. He was already complicit with Colborn for covering their butts in 1995 about the Gregory Allen tip for which he was about to be deposed. Knowing there was nothing out of place according to Colborn’s search of Steven’s home, Lenk decided to plant blood evidence and remove the license plates the evening of the 4th. This helped to distance Colborn from the RAV4 regarding the plates. Lenk did this alone. No one else had to know about the blood. Lenk and Colborn in good faith at that time were sure beyond the shadow of a doubt that Steven had done it – just like the meth users had anticipated. Why would Lenk cross to the dark side?
Thats interesting in trying to explain the facts. The license plate removed.
Watching MAM again Buting mentions the inconsistent prosecution theory of Steves blood but no fingerprints....so he had on gloves or he didnt? Did the prosecution answer that simple question or was it they claim he had them on then took off the gloves to go inside the car? makes no sense.

Guilters often have trouble accepting numerous "professionals" conspiring to frame someone and support the system even in untruthful situations which is happening in this case, imo. So Lenk and Colburn becoming the foot soldiers for their bosses is understandable. Will they squeel if things fall apart?

This Vogel guy and TKourcek were called out in the civil suit. The Manitowoc mafia with Petersen seems to have attempted protecting them and probably Peterson. The state too encourages saving $36 million.' Lenk and Colburn little minion soldiers tossed under the bus for the dirty work. That makes some sense.

Lenk and Colburn motive mentioned above is interesting. Just how much did they have to gain or lose to plant evidence, ruin their career or get promoted? They at the least bring conflict of interest into the case is interesting as Pete Baetz mentions. Factbender allowing so many people to tromp around, especially Lenk and Colburn makes Facttbender an incompetent or scum-cop in the mob.

Im still clueless, the garage and trailer clean and also the SUV, imo, clean of a murder location so the quarry pits and TH being outside the SUV seems to be some kind of "scene" that took place. Barrels in his backyard, chipped into small pieces of bones but only some of them in the trailer pit doesnt make sense.

The Detroit police corruption tweet by Brendans lawyer was strange (Lenks old employment in Detroit) makes one wonder how dirty is this guy?

The first I thought of the cops doing the shooting was Samson but its possible as anyone else especially if you dont believe the garage -magic -bullet isnt honest evidence.

Lenk ....Dirt from Detroit?
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Old 18th May 2017, 08:33 AM   #3655
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2016- "Most of Ms. Halbach's bones and 29 of her teeth were not found in Mr. Avery's burn pit," Zellner argued in her motion. "State expert Leslie Eisenberg testified that the volume of bones discovered in the burn pit was two- to three-fifths of what might be expected ... Dr. Eisenberg testified that she suspected that the bones found in the Radandt quarry, which included a pelvis, were human."

Did Judge WIllis just ignore this? Like he ignored the VoiceMails being deleted he probably didnt see how the bones had any relevance to the case....geeez
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Old 19th May 2017, 09:45 PM   #3656
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Originally Posted by JREF2010 View Post
2016- "Most of Ms. Halbach's bones and 29 of her teeth were not found in Mr. Avery's burn pit," Zellner argued in her motion. "State expert Leslie Eisenberg testified that the volume of bones discovered in the burn pit was two- to three-fifths of what might be expected ... Dr. Eisenberg testified that she suspected that the bones found in the Radandt quarry, which included a pelvis, were human."
Spin, or lying by omission?

The bones in the burn pit
Quote:
Leslie Eisenberg, a forensic anthropologist, gives testimony regarding the bones found on the Avery property. She states that a fragment of almost every bone in the human body was found in the burn pit, which she believed to be the primary burn site of the body. She suspected two bone fragments found in a quarry on the Avery property appeared to be human pelvic bone. However, these bone fragments were never linked to Teresa. If the bones had been moved to the burn pit from another location, she would've expected to see breakage due to transport, which she did not see. She finds it "highly unlikely" that the bones were not burned in the fire pit.
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Old 20th May 2017, 12:26 AM   #3657
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Spin, or lying by omission?

The bones in the burn pit
Roger Ramjets:
Have you considered reading the book written by the man closest to the investigation who was not a Manitowoc plant?

Jeremy Buting: Illusion of Justice.

One click on kindle, but don't fall for straightforward facts when slavish adherence to the rulings of authority is more comfortable.
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Old 20th May 2017, 07:05 AM   #3658
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Spin, or lying by omission?

The bones in the burn pit
Makes you wonder if the second "bone site" was just evidence of another, unsolved and unknown murder Avery committed. Anyone else missing?
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Old 20th May 2017, 08:27 AM   #3659
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Makes you wonder if the second "bone site" was just evidence of another, unsolved and unknown murder Avery committed. Anyone else missing?
I wonder that, too.

If the local police suspected Avery of an earlier murder, it becomes more understandable they would want to be sure he was convicted for this one.
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Old 20th May 2017, 04:10 PM   #3660
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Makes you wonder if the second "bone site" was just evidence of another, unsolved and unknown murder Avery committed. Anyone else missing?
Always a lateral thinker, marplots. We can never have too many serial killers to add levity to the the news cycle.
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Old 20th May 2017, 06:16 PM   #3661
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Have you considered reading the book written by the man closest to the investigation who was not a Manitowoc plant?
No, I have not. However I might consider it if you can convince me that the claims on stevenaverycase.com are false. Specifically, I need solid evidence of the following:-

1. Leslie Eisenberg did not believe that the burn pit was the primary burn site of the body.

2. A fragment of almost every bone in the human body was not found in the burn pit, or if it was then a similar or greater proportion was also found at the dump site.

3. Eisenberg did not find it "highly unlikely" that the bones were not burned in the fire pit.

4. The pelvic bone fragment found at the dump site was linked to Teresa, including evidence that it was left behind when other bones were moved from there to Avery's property.

5. It actually is more likely that "a planter managed to scoop up the tiniest pieces of bones to plant, while forgetting the largest and most obvious."

6. When officers returned to the garage to perform a thorough search and found two bullet fragments, one was not a 'small, partially destroyed fragment in a crack in the cement', and the other was not 'under an air compressor in the back of the garage' - they were actually both planted.

7. The bullet was not matched to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty to have been fired from Avery's exact rifle, or if it was then the State Crime Lab or Calumet County did participate in the frame-job by providing Manitowoc County officers with a bullet and DNA to plant.

8. If Teresa was shot in the back of the head while kneeling or laying on the ground, blood would not have been confined to the area below her head, but in fact would have splattered all over the garage.

9. When blood is transferred into a vial, a needle is not inserted through the rubber cap, so there is no legitimate explanation for a hole being there.

10. The evidence tape on the vial box was not cut in a meeting with Avery's own lawyers.

11. The results of the EDTA test do not make it extremely improbable that Avery's preserved blood was planted in six places in the car.

12. Lenk actually did have the access code to the room where the blood vial was stored, and there are indications that he knew the blood vial existed and he did personally go to the Clerk of Courts office to collect evidence for transfer.

13. In the call between Colborn and the dispatcher, one or both of them did sound 'excited, nervous, or confused' - suggesting that Colborn was looking right at the missing vehicle (and thinking of how it could be used to frame Avery).

14. The car was found on the Avery lot with plates, or even if it wasn't they were not 'folded and stashed in another car on the lot' (because that would indicate a serious effort to hide the identity of the vehicle).

15. Avery actually had plenty of time to crush the car without arousing suspicion.

16. It is not 'highly unlikely' that the police found the car almost immediately after Teresa was reported missing, took an unnoticeable amount of blood from Avery's vial and planted it in six spots in the car, removed the plates, drove it onto the Avery lot without detection, covered it with a car hood and tree branches, and ran across the yard near the residences to hide the plates in another vehicle. In fact this is the most likely scenario (and here's why...).
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Old 20th May 2017, 06:33 PM   #3662
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.. dup

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Old 20th May 2017, 06:34 PM   #3663
Samson
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I did note that 5 tyres were identified by the steel, which suggests the primary burn would need to be achieved with this much fuel.

As our friend Mike Halbach would say,

No, I don't think so.

I am not sure about the locked up vial and I have read that website when Kaosium posted it.
It is scientifically impossible to eliminate the flesh without trace in Avery's burn pit, and even with fuel it would take days.

In practice, it's usually an issue for people who try it, unless they know something about the subject. They tend to underestimate the fuel requirements.

Most killers, I would say well over 99 percent, do something else when faced with the need to dispose of a body. They bury it, or they dump it in a remote area. Burning does not confer any particular advantage.

If the goal is to reduce human remains to a dry fraction that can be used to frame someone, burning confers two huge advantages. First, the remains can be transported in a small container without being recognized as what they are. Second, the cause and circumstances of the death are obliterated. Burned remains establish the fact of murder. Everything else must be inferred, as indeed it was.

Charlie Wilkes from IA

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Old 21st May 2017, 03:21 PM   #3664
Ampulla of Vater
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
No, I have not. However I might consider it if you can convince me that the claims on stevenaverycase.com are false. Specifically, I need solid evidence of the following:-

1. Leslie Eisenberg did not believe that the burn pit was the primary burn site of the body.

2. A fragment of almost every bone in the human body was not found in the burn pit, or if it was then a similar or greater proportion was also found at the dump site.

3. Eisenberg did not find it "highly unlikely" that the bones were not burned in the fire pit.

4. The pelvic bone fragment found at the dump site was linked to Teresa, including evidence that it was left behind when other bones were moved from there to Avery's property.

5. It actually is more likely that "a planter managed to scoop up the tiniest pieces of bones to plant, while forgetting the largest and most obvious."

6. When officers returned to the garage to perform a thorough search and found two bullet fragments, one was not a 'small, partially destroyed fragment in a crack in the cement', and the other was not 'under an air compressor in the back of the garage' - they were actually both planted.

7. The bullet was not matched to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty to have been fired from Avery's exact rifle, or if it was then the State Crime Lab or Calumet County did participate in the frame-job by providing Manitowoc County officers with a bullet and DNA to plant.

8. If Teresa was shot in the back of the head while kneeling or laying on the ground, blood would not have been confined to the area below her head, but in fact would have splattered all over the garage.

9. When blood is transferred into a vial, a needle is not inserted through the rubber cap, so there is no legitimate explanation for a hole being there.

10. The evidence tape on the vial box was not cut in a meeting with Avery's own lawyers.

11. The results of the EDTA test do not make it extremely improbable that Avery's preserved blood was planted in six places in the car.

12. Lenk actually did have the access code to the room where the blood vial was stored, and there are indications that he knew the blood vial existed and he did personally go to the Clerk of Courts office to collect evidence for transfer.

13. In the call between Colborn and the dispatcher, one or both of them did sound 'excited, nervous, or confused' - suggesting that Colborn was looking right at the missing vehicle (and thinking of how it could be used to frame Avery).

14. The car was found on the Avery lot with plates, or even if it wasn't they were not 'folded and stashed in another car on the lot' (because that would indicate a serious effort to hide the identity of the vehicle).

15. Avery actually had plenty of time to crush the car without arousing suspicion.

16. It is not 'highly unlikely' that the police found the car almost immediately after Teresa was reported missing, took an unnoticeable amount of blood from Avery's vial and planted it in six spots in the car, removed the plates, drove it onto the Avery lot without detection, covered it with a car hood and tree branches, and ran across the yard near the residences to hide the plates in another vehicle. In fact this is the most likely scenario (and here's why...).


Boom chakalaka.

And there you have it. It looks like Samson has some work to do (and this does not include quoting other anonymous posters from the internet).
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Old 21st May 2017, 05:36 PM   #3665
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Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
Boom chakalaka.

And there you have it. It looks like Samson has some work to do (and this does not include quoting other anonymous posters from the internet).
Says she who thinks Kirsten Lobato is guilty
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Old 22nd May 2017, 12:26 AM   #3666
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
No, I have not. However I might consider it if you can convince me that the claims on stevenaverycase.com are false. Specifically, I need solid evidence of the following:-
I agree with most of the points, I'll just comment on the ones who are explainable.

Quote:
8. If Teresa was shot in the back of the head while kneeling or laying on the ground, blood would not have been confined to the area below her head, but in fact would have splattered all over the garage.
This one depends a lot on the weapon and the angle of the shot. However if her head was wrapped up in paper and/or cloth it is entirely possible to do without any splatter.

Quote:
9. When blood is transferred into a vial, a needle is not inserted through the rubber cap, so there is no legitimate explanation for a hole being there.
That's how vacutainers work, but you can use a second needle to remove some blood afterwards without creating a visible second hole. That's what a hematological analyzer would do.

Quote:
15. Avery actually had plenty of time to crush the car without arousing suspicion.
I think this one should be easy, he had three or four days before he became the focus of the investigation and it's hard that he wouldn't have the time to crush the car. Whether he would have the wits to do it is another matter entirely.

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Old 22nd May 2017, 05:13 AM   #3667
Samson
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I am not sure where you are all going with this.

Let us remember there is strong and sober witness evidence saying the Rav4 was driven from the lot and turned left at 3 or 4 pm.

Is this evidence wrong?
If it is correct, was Teresa driving the car?
Was Steven Avery driving the car?
Was someone else driving the car?
Was Elon Musk driving the car?
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Old 22nd May 2017, 05:24 AM   #3668
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I am not sure where you are all going with this.
The case for the defense isn't nearly as strong as you make it out to be, for starters.

Quote:
Let us remember there is strong and sober witness evidence saying the Rav4 was driven from the lot and turned left at 3 or 4 pm.

Is this evidence wrong?
If it is correct, was Teresa driving the car?
Was Steven Avery driving the car?
Was someone else driving the car?
All are possible and don't disprove the evidence presented. If it was Theresa it makes the murder less likely, that's it. There is no evidence whatsoever it was Theresa driving the car though.

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Old 23rd May 2017, 03:53 AM   #3669
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The case for the defense isn't nearly as strong as you make it out to be, for starters.



All are possible and don't disprove the evidence presented. If it was Theresa it makes the murder less likely, that's it. There is no evidence whatsoever it was Theresa driving the car though.

McHrozni
It may be helpful to explain Steve's movements before and after driving the car.
I am certain he didn't so am not required to speculate, but those who believe Teresa did not drive the car from the lot are obliged to create a narrative.

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Old 23rd May 2017, 09:22 AM   #3670
Ampulla of Vater
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Says she who thinks Kirsten Lobato is guilty
Dahlink,

I read every word of the transcripts for the Lobato trial. Every. word.

Don't tell me about personal research!
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Old 23rd May 2017, 09:29 PM   #3671
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I think that at this time it is pointless to be still arguing about the current evidence. The future of this case rests on new evidence and we should know about that shortly (I said a couple days ago that I suspect by the end of June, although I now wouldn't be surprised if it is within the next two weeks). Zellner was working on a few other cases over the previous couple weeks (winning the reinstatement of a nine million dollar wrongful conviction settlement) and now appears to have her test results for this case (the State has also indicated that the tests have been done and they expect her to file shortly - the State has also received the results of the tests). Based on her twitter avatar changes over the past couple days she appears pretty confident (she first changed to a tsunami picture and then to picture of a scanning electron microscope from the place that was doing those tests). Rumour has it that after she brought those results to Avery he was pretty ecstatic, and asked (or agreed for) her to do one more thing before filing.

Assuming that her case is focused around the SEM tests then it appears that she will be arguing that either the Rav4 key DNA and/or the DNA from the hood latch swab were planted. But, there may be much more coming. I have long said that I had been 50/50, but Zellner agreeing to take the case shifted me towards the not guilty side. We will see shortly if she has the goods. Based on her confidence I suspect that she does.

I will be most interested in seeing the reactions (denials?) from the side that appears to be on the losing end (assuming that the new evidence is either strong, or poor) - whether that is Avery supporters if Zellner's new findings are basically a puff of smoke (that will include myself as I fully expect Zellner to bring strong evidence), or of those who think Avery is guilty if Zellner's finding show planting of evidence.

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Old 23rd May 2017, 09:31 PM   #3672
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(double post)

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Old 24th May 2017, 12:21 AM   #3673
Samson
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Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
I think that at this time it is pointless to be still arguing about the current evidence. The future of this case rests on new evidence and we should know about that shortly (I said a couple days ago that I suspect by the end of June, although I now wouldn't be surprised if it is within the next two weeks). Zellner was working on a few other cases over the previous couple weeks (winning the reinstatement of a nine million dollar wrongful conviction settlement) and now appears to have her test results for this case (the State has also indicated that the tests have been done and they expect her to file shortly - the State has also received the results of the tests). Based on her twitter avatar changes over the past couple days she appears pretty confident (she first changed to a tsunami picture and then to picture of a scanning electron microscope from the place that was doing those tests). Rumour has it that after she brought those results to Avery he was pretty ecstatic, and asked (or agreed for) her to do one more thing before filing.

Assuming that her case is focused around the SEM tests then it appears that she will be arguing that either the Rav4 key DNA and/or the DNA from the hood latch swab were planted. But, there may be much more coming. I have long said that I had been 50/50, but Zellner agreeing to take the case shifted me towards the not guilty side. We will see shortly if she has the goods. Based on her confidence I suspect that she does.

I will be most interested in seeing the reactions (denia case.ls?) from the side that appears to be on the losing end (assuming that the new evidence is either strong, or poor) - whether that is Avery supporters if Zellner's new findings are basically a puff of smoke (that will include myself as I fully expect Zellner to bring strong evidence), or of those who think Avery is guilty if Zellner's finding show planting of evidence.
After studying multiple similar cases, I can say clearly that the arguments about guilt or innocence become irrelevant if one data point precludes the guilt narrative, and the evidence trawled into the net by the prosecution is shown to be brick by brick explicable by a narrative excluding suspect.

This is such a case.

Of course there are many data points precluding suspect. (inmate as kindly termed in some discussions).
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Old 24th May 2017, 12:55 AM   #3674
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
It may be helpful to explain Steve's movements before and after driving the car.
I am certain he didn't so am not required to speculate, but those who believe Teresa did not drive the car from the lot are obliged to create a narrative.
The prosecution alleged an accomplice and successfully prosecuted him, remember? He drove the car and the phone to create an appearance Theresa Haslbach left the property while Steve was busy building an alibi with his girlfriend.

This scenario also explains why there is Stevens' blood in the car, but no fingerprints. He didn't do much in the car, but his accomplice either worse gloves or else his touch was so light it didn't leave recoverable fingerprints, or else wiped them off in some way - perhaps accidentally.

The case is not very hard for prosecution to create narratives that support each other.

McHrozni
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Old 24th May 2017, 08:45 AM   #3675
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The state would have more credibility saying that Avery attached the cell phone to a pigeon, or let the dog drive the Rav than Dassey.
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Old 24th May 2017, 12:09 PM   #3676
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Incidentally, on Monday the State, ordered by the state DOJ, sent the bullet fragment to an Illinois lab for retesting - tested and returned the next day, so this was on a pretty frantic timeline. I can't imagine that they would be doing that if Zellner's tests had found nothing significant (and by that I mean Zellner's tests on other evidence, as while she had requested to test the bullet fragment to determine the organ from which Teresa's cells on the fragment came from, as well as NAA analysis comparing the fragment to the unspent shells in Avery's bedroom, that had been denied). So between that and Zellner's avatar teasing on twitter, I think that something major is coming. But I have been wrong before.

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Old 24th May 2017, 06:05 PM   #3677
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the more i think of the bullet and Lenk being around too often and how no one else found it earlier and the other shell cases that had nothing and all the other samples that had nothing against Avery and nothing in the trailer so Krafty Kratz moves it all to the garage but then truth is nothing was really found out there but this one "desperate" piece of evidence LENKING TH DNA to the garage fictional scenario.

common sense tells me the bullet would have a lot of blood on it from TH and Ive never heard that comment made by SC.

it just doesnt add up and if the evidence were real then Wisconsin needs to fire a bunch of police and detectives and just have Colburn and Lenk as the SuperHeroDetectives that only have to wonder around a crime scene and evidence everyone else missed is suddenly found!!!
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Old 24th May 2017, 06:59 PM   #3678
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flying through the RUMORS posts on the new release, Im going with RUMOR here

someone already twitted (just rumor) that test came back that this bullet is made from different metal (whatever it calls) not as the rest of the bullets collected from SA garage....

someone else mentioned its an easy test and they could prove it quickly.

personally I dont know.
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Old 24th May 2017, 07:09 PM   #3679
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Originally Posted by JREF2010 View Post
flying through the RUMORS posts on the new release, Im going with RUMOR here

someone already twitted (just rumor) that test came back that this bullet is made from different metal (whatever it calls) not as the rest of the bullets collected from SA garage....

someone else mentioned its an easy test and they could prove it quickly.

personally I dont know.
Pretty shocking. I don't know what to make of it, considering the rumors I've been hearing about the case. Steven Avery wrote a complete confession and sent it to the Washington Post.

JUST A RUMOR FOR NOW....
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Old 24th May 2017, 07:16 PM   #3680
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delete

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