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21st August 2007, 06:19 AM | #7161 |
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Quote:
If science demands physical proof for one species, then it should require it for both. Right now, there is no physical evidence for the Ivory Billed Woodpeckers existance. Yes, there is this footage - to that I say "So, show me real evidence". I apply that same mentality to my research, my job and any other issue where someone is trying to convince me of something --- show me. I cut no one slack in this regard. I am glad they are out looking for the Ivory Billed Woodpecker, if its out there, it deserves the chance to survive and have its numbers increase. But, dont expect me to think differently just because it existed once. The same rules should absolutely apply, and they do - which is exactly why they are out looking for the IBW. I am sorry you keep taking my comments so harshly, but really - I am allowed to think anyway I want. I would think you would applaud me for having such a tough stance on proof. Geesh, cant win for losing with this crowd. LMAO |
21st August 2007, 06:35 AM | #7162 |
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No, Melissa.
You can't win for lack of reading and understanding. Proof, at this point, isn't even the issue. And no one is saying you shouldn't be waiting for physical evidence. And no one is saying that we should accept that the IBW exists based on the scant evidence so far. What we are saying is that you don't seem to be able to grasp the probabilities. Bigfoot has been looked for and researched for over 40 years. What do we have? Absolutely nothing. Zero. No evidence at all that can be called anything better than weak circumstancial. The chances of Bigfoot being a real creature are less than the chances of me Winning the lottery while doing surgery during a space walk. Researching it, at this point, is a waste of time and money. If Bigfoot existed, there would be evidence by this time, no matter how shy he was. And yes, you are allowed to think however you want. That doesn't mean you're correct. My entire argument hasn't been so much about the existence of Bigfoot or the IBW, but about being able to realistically and reasonbly evalutate probabilities. That, and your obvious inability to recognize and appreciate the differences between legitimate research, such as the current work being done to try and find the IBW, and farciacal con games, such as Bigfoot research. I was clarifying why Bigfoot research is not science, and why the compariosn to the IBW research is a slap in the face to the real scientists trying to find that animal. Of course, you keep wanting to go back and claim that we're trying to say the IBW exists, even though we've specifically stated, several times, that no one is claiming that. I'm revising my opinion. Decietful and ignorant. |
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21st August 2007, 06:38 AM | #7163 |
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What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break? |
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21st August 2007, 06:39 AM | #7164 |
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History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell |
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21st August 2007, 06:48 AM | #7165 |
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Thats what I said. Am I typing in english? Do I need to draw pictures or something? Here is the quote:
Originally Posted by Melissa
Originally Posted by Huntsman
Dont get pissy with me because someone generalized a statement and had to regroup. Take your own advice and read before typing. The more you type, the more your opinion of me just doesnt matter Thank you. Oh by the way - you are the last person on this website who should be discussing ignorance. You have proven yours time and time again. The last post is just the most laughable. |
21st August 2007, 06:55 AM | #7166 |
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So, it's not made up to assign a characteristic mid-tarsal break to a non-existant animal?
So, if I claimed Bigfoots could fly, that's not made up because there are flying animals, right? You don't get pissy with us because you can't understand an arugment in context, and would rather attack strawmen. I can only assume you do it intentionally; I refuse to believe anyone capable of typing could be so lacking in thinking ability. And that's what gets me "pissy", as you say. Now, do you have anything valid to say in defense of Bigfoot "research" or belief? Any reason we should still be spending time and money running around the woods looking for the boogeyman? |
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History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell |
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21st August 2007, 06:58 AM | #7167 |
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Originally Posted by Huntsman
I also do not need to justify what I do in my free time - because Its my time to waiste and my money. But, thanks for your concern. P.S. I have already explained a hundred times why I am involved and will remain involved. If you havent read those posts - go back and find them, they have been within the last couple weeks. |
21st August 2007, 07:09 AM | #7168 |
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Quote:
Maybe she caught that deliberate obtuseness disease? |
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What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break? |
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21st August 2007, 07:12 AM | #7169 |
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Quote:
Attempts to dodge the issue are not going to work. Attempts to claim MTB's in general were the topic are also not going to work. Melissa clearly knew what was meant. |
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What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break? |
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21st August 2007, 07:13 AM | #7170 |
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LTC if your not going to read my replies, then I have no reason to continue this discussion. I am tired of you not reading what I am saying and simply making up comments to suit your side of the discussion.
Learn how to have a conversation, then maybe one day we can try this again, I dont have time for this. |
21st August 2007, 07:16 AM | #7171 |
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What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break? |
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21st August 2007, 07:18 AM | #7172 |
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21st August 2007, 07:20 AM | #7173 |
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Nope. I am just saying I think his conclusions regarding this issue are at least debatable for the reasons I presented.
How many footprints would show the break (assuming the animals are real and have this feature)? I don't know, but I suppose not all of them. Of course it would depend on a number of variables, some related to the substract and some depending on the creature itself. But I would expect to see registers of folds in the skin where the "break" is, even if the foot itself was kept rigid when it impacted or stood over the soil. The smooth surfaces seen on some casts (even in those with alleged dermals) are indications, at least for me, that's something is wrong with Meldrum's interpretation. Could these giant apes have lived outside their known range and evolved? Well, they could... But they also could not... I'd rather stick to what we know and not be too bold when it comes to speculations. Yes, knoweledge is always subject to change. People may be looking and who knows, eventually find bones of Gigantopithecus in Thailand and India, but their climate and vegetation are very different from North America. Findings in Northern China would certainly be a better support. Its true that some animals are quite widespread. The many species of deer and wolves come to mind. But species say, of wolves from Europe, Asia and North America have similar diets and their bodies are not very different. When it comes to bigfoot/Gigantopithecus, we would have to change (according to our current knoweledge status) locomotion, body shape and diet... Such a change is possible? But what if Gigantopithecus we bipedal? Given the evidences we have so far I think its too much of a stretch. But again, I may be wrong. And when I look in to the various descriptions and renderings of bigfeet... OK, we do have an ape about the size. If it weren't interesting and worth looking in to, we would not be discussing it here! |
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21st August 2007, 07:26 AM | #7174 |
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What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break? |
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21st August 2007, 07:29 AM | #7175 |
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What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break? |
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21st August 2007, 07:37 AM | #7176 |
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http://www.bermuda-triangle.org/html...of_folklo.html
Scroll down a bit for some interesting Wallace/Green/Crew information. |
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What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break? |
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21st August 2007, 07:39 AM | #7177 |
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Regardless of whether it's extinct now, science had sufficient physical proof to identify and classify the Ivory Billed Woodpecker -- Species: Campephilus principalis; Kingdom: Animalia; Phylum: Chordata; Class: Aves; Order: Piciformes; Family: Picidae; Genus: Campephilus. There has not been sufficient physical proof presented for science to identify and classify bigfoot, and that's one of the main reasons analogies between the IBW and bigfoot fall flat.
RayG |
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21st August 2007, 07:54 AM | #7178 |
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6
Do we also start from the position that bigfoot, the one that supposedly inhabits the PNW, does/can not exist? If I don't think it's impossible, does that make me a fringe believer? (even though I don't believe) RayG |
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21st August 2007, 07:57 AM | #7179 |
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I understand why you say that RayG - as the Ivory Billed Woodpecker was once known to exist, granted that is a given. But, it has been listed as extinct - so I think the same rules should apply and in fact they do. The video was enough to get Cornell back out into the field, but not enough to say that without a doubt the IBW is now out of extinction.
Im glad they are not holding a double standard. |
21st August 2007, 08:10 AM | #7180 |
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Originally Posted by RayG
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21st August 2007, 08:30 AM | #7181 |
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"Stupidly"...wow good form there Yeti Sweat...good form indeed
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Footprints can be faked..even the amazing,spectacular MTB,stories can be made up,noises can be described that were never really heard or mistaken for something else,arse prints can be divined from a hole in the mud,hair can be called unknown,films can be hoaxed....why bother analyzing much further than that? Bigfoot Nation needs something concrete for science to poke and prod...if not Bigfeetsus is no more real than the Tooth Fairy or the Great Pumpkin.
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If playing intrepid Bigfoot researcher is what you consider fun and productive than by all means knock yourself out Sweatster....as for me I'd like it proven to be whatever it is...either an actual living breathing creature...or a huge pile of Bull Scheize...either way...only proof will do.
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Secondarily (sp?) because Bigfoot Nation tends to act as if they are Bigfeetsuses special chosen people...and all us scofftics/skeptics are to stupid to see that obviously Bigfeetsus exist. Many of you CLAIM to have seen one or seen a trackway or heard a spooky scream in the night and over at the Bigfoot Think Tank forum many of you carry on as if the creature has been proven and categorized already...when in fact nothing could be further from the truth..which chaps my hide...so I join in the discussion every once and again...to add my two cents...and if that involves angering you...than all the better.
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You ask us to buy into Bigfeetsus on what has been brought forth to this point...all of which is useless...so Sweat...when and if The Bigfoot Nation brings something more to the table..I'll be fascinated,amazed and heartily dining on crow....until than though I toss the question right backatcha... Who should just SHUT UP?? |
21st August 2007, 08:34 AM | #7182 |
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Originally Posted by Correa Neto
Originally Posted by Correa Neto
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21st August 2007, 08:48 AM | #7183 |
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You do believe things and that's why it's strange to hear you say otherwise. You believe that the possibility of Bigfoot is worth entertaining, and it is worth establishing a hobbyist intrigue around this belief. You say you are on a fence and remain neutral, but your actions and arguments are those of an advocate for existence. You are told you are "fringe" because you appear to advocate and defend various evidences that are proposed to represent Bigfoot.
Since about a year or so ago, many Bigfooters decided to actively try to distance themselves from the the designation of "believer". They say they don't believe in Bigfoot per se, and instead just follow where the evidence leads. As if to say that the sum total of presented evidence (or parts) compels any rational person to automatically arrive at a predisposition for existence. They never consciously choose to believe, but instead the evidence itself flips switches inside their brains pointing towards "The animal exists", and this thing called belief has nothing to do with it. But there is no escape from belief and believing. At the minimum, the advocates must believe that at least some of the evidence is not hoaxed or misidentified. The fence-sitter does not automatically arrive on the fence because they don't have any beliefs. It is their established beliefs that put them on the fence, so to speak. |
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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21st August 2007, 08:52 AM | #7184 |
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So, now your talents extend to Psychic abilities WP?
Dont quit your day job as a jerk Your much better at that. |
21st August 2007, 08:55 AM | #7185 |
Show me the monkey!
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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21st August 2007, 08:57 AM | #7186 |
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21st August 2007, 09:00 AM | #7187 |
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Thank you Drapier - I figured if I spoke in a language that seems to be understood, my point would be made much faster.
Funny how you remark at rude comments toward your fellow skeptics - but when its someone with an opposing opinion those nasty remarks seem to be ok. Hypocrites. Learn how to have a debate. |
21st August 2007, 09:01 AM | #7188 |
Show me the monkey!
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The Grinch That Stole Bigfoot
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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21st August 2007, 09:05 AM | #7189 |
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Google doesn't work for you ? It comes in handy when one is a researcher..
Does ' Ice Age ' mean anything to you ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleisto...acial_features I Don't think the glaciers made it to southern China during the Pleistocene .. |
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Maybe later.... |
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21st August 2007, 09:11 AM | #7190 |
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Quote:
If we go with a Patty-esque bigfoot, I would say you start from that position, then modify it as evidence for it that you accept comes to you. This does not allow you to invent evidence, though. Or to call things evidence that really aren't. As an individual, you are of course free to do nearly whatever you wish, but you are not free to expect others to accept... |
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What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break? |
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21st August 2007, 09:19 AM | #7191 |
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Ahh, but you didnt answer his question LTC.
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21st August 2007, 09:59 AM | #7192 |
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21st August 2007, 10:04 AM | #7193 |
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What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break? |
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21st August 2007, 10:05 AM | #7194 |
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Hey thanks Drapier Glad I could help out in the long line of firsts for this topic, on this forum. It truly is an honor.
Seriously, if you think the attitude here is conducive to any serious discussion of the actual issue - well, I feel sorry for you. In less than 4 pages of this very thread I have seen more people assume they know me right down to my personality - hell Im surprised no one has offered fashion tips they know I will love. Every so often I do manage to have a intellectual exchange with someone here - but more times than not I am insulted and treated like a freak. Now, tell me why I should be nice to people who are clearly not even so much as decent toward me? I think I have shown, when treated with a little bit of decency - I can be a very nice person, but just like you all - I tire of the BS and random uneducated attacks that would make a 5th grader proud. I thought this forum could handle serious discussion - maybe its only a select few. My bad |
21st August 2007, 10:07 AM | #7195 |
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NVM. Not even worth it.
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21st August 2007, 10:13 AM | #7196 |
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Quote:
Could you stop these generalizations, please? I'll answer your question anyway. You should always stay on the high road. It always works out better if you don't take the low road. Treating people decently, even if you perceive that they have treated you poorly, always works out for the best in the long run. Look at just about any board anywhere. The most respected posters are the ones who keep their cool and don't resort to low tactics. |
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What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break? |
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21st August 2007, 10:20 AM | #7197 |
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21st August 2007, 10:39 AM | #7198 |
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Inevitably perhaps, the sullen opponents plod towards each other, the arena reverberating with cheers, chants, and the thud of stomping feet. The noise level builds steadily as the antagonists close to only arms-length distance. The crowd noise becomes a deafening roar as they stand nearly eye-to-eye, foreheads scant inches apart. Slowly one of the combatants raises his head and, with the force of a category 5 hurricane, unleashes a torrent of abuse about the head and shoulders of his stunned victim.
"Poopy-pants!" he screams "Momma's boy!" he bellows "You sanctimonious sack of doggie-doo!" he shrieks as the audience sits in both mortified horror and eager anticipation of further abuse. His target, rocked by the vile invective, stumbles and falls to one knee. Seeing his opponent weakened, he senses the opportunity to end this quickly. "Intellectual infant!" he blathers, as spittle drips from his lips. "Sorry son of a... er... hmm... ahem... sorry, got off track. Right. Never mind, back to your umm... debate. RayG |
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21st August 2007, 10:59 AM | #7199 |
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A bit short of time here to do the propper link-digging this requires for a detailed discussion (I would -and need- to see such data including for other purposes). I could only make a quick googling (the most promissing links require subscriptions). From the results, I selected these two links:
Fig. 1 at http://palaeoworks.anu.edu.au/pubs/Hopeetal04.pdf shows reconstructions of vegetation at Asia 40Ky ago Scrolling down at http://earth.usc.edu/~geol150/evolut...eistocene.html you'll see a reconstruction of North America's vegetation 18Ky ago. I would like to point two issues: 1. You have a dataset from 40Ky ago and another from 18 Ky bp; since the Pleistocene was characterized by several climate fluctuations, expect doing nothing but obtaining some generalized impressions. 2. Both maps I linked to are from a time when Gigantopithecus, as far as we know, were gone. A propper and good evaluation would require comparing reconstruction maps for each cycle since the oldest fossil remains of Gigantopithecus. Note that the more you go back in time the more you'll loose "resolution". This put, I must say its not just a matter Southern Asia and North America having or not similar vegetation and climate zones at one or more points sometime durint the Pleistocene. Its also a matter of the different climate and vegetation zones our hipothetical giant apes would have to cross to reach North America. These animals would have to be adaptable enough to, from the forests they originally inhabited, expand their range across tundra, steppe, temperate semidesert and dry grassland to reach the distribution inferred by sighting reports in North America. Call me a brick head, but I have serious problems imagining that... I may be wrong, but I guess a definitive answer would require some other bones. Things like the the base of a skull, the upper two vertebrae (axis and atlas) or femurs or hip bones. Note that the "only a mandible" reasoning also leaves open space for this interpretation that loks like a mix between a gorilla, a baboon and a bear: Who knows? Bipedal, knuckle-walkers or quadrupedal? Analogies with other primates are what allow guys who studied the remains, such as Ciochon, to say they were knuckle-walkers. I'll choose their side of the fence untill better evidence is presented... |
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21st August 2007, 11:28 AM | #7200 |
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Humm, all depends on my mood. But, I do like Pink - but my favorite is Red Everything a woman does is a good excuse for shopping
Originally Posted by Drapier
I suppose I wont waist your time by saying I am very skeptical and critical of all evidence presented to me.. lmao. |
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