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Tags film , bigfoot , patterson gimlin

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Old 25th September 2007, 01:06 AM   #7681
manofthesea
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post

Maybe after for a little added perspective read 'When does BFRO "research" resemble religion?' under Websites and Organizations.
Just to display some of my devoutness, how 'bout this: Are there any threads concerning the search for the elusive "li'lfoot"? By this, I mean is there anybody discussing the possibility that the 'hobbit', or florens man, has managed to survive until present? C'mon, just think of all the possibilities, and the comparative ease it would be to conduct individual research. For example, I'm assuming that a person would need a relatively small amount of plaster and such. And we could just bang some small sticks and stuff. But, seriously I would like to know if this has been proposed here. It would be darned interesting to me. Just imagine, people traipsing through the jungles of New Guinea searching for 'small head'-ed people.
Thanks, man. They have some really good (to me) articles on the 'hobbit' at Livescience.

ETA: I have been to Port Moresby and had a good, safe (and inebriated) time there.

Last edited by manofthesea; 25th September 2007 at 01:23 AM. Reason: No Offense Intended
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Old 25th September 2007, 06:27 AM   #7682
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Actually, the Hobbit or 'Florence Man' has been proven to live in Northern Michigan:

This older lady kept having these things happen to her... She lived in a trailer home, and often late at night while watching Leno, (She hates 'That Letterman, he's so smug'), she would fall asleep, and then the screen door would slam, and the garbage can outside would be turned over in a loud crash. She would leap up and look out the window, and see only the top of somethings hairy head, and a pipe with smoke rings drifting up.

Investigator measured the bottom of the window at 4'6" and the top of the Hobbits head was estimated at 3'11", so therefore there are Hobbits in Northern Michigan.
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Old 25th September 2007, 06:32 AM   #7683
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Tube had written...

Quote:
To create something of a summary of the issues regarding Patterson's "plaster pour" film segment and the "cast display" film segment, I've decided to create a webpage about it here:
Tube says there is an issue regarding the plaster pouring and cast segments.....but when asked for for more details about these "issues".....all you smart skeptics can come up with is....

1) Who said it did?

Perhaps it will decrease it?

2) In what way does it decrease the likelihood that there is no Bigfoot ?

3) Put a number on that yet, Sweaty? You have calculated that, right?

And from Tube........golden silence.

Apparantly there is no real issue, or problem, concerning the plaster casts.


Actually.....the problem I see regarding the footprints at the scene, was how Roger even made them, considering how much weight was required to depress the soil as deeply as it was.

In addition to that...why did he bother making the fake trackway continue so far beyond the point where the filming stopped.....when all he had to do was turn left and go up into the woods. Instead the trackway turned to the right and continued across the open creekbed.

Perhaps Roger was enjoying carrying a few hundred pounds on his back, making the fake footprints???
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Old 25th September 2007, 06:48 AM   #7684
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Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
....
Actually.....the problem I see regarding the footprints at the scene, was how Roger even made them, considering how much weight was required to depress the soil as deeply as it was.
... Where is your evidence regarding how deeply the soil was depressed?

As soon as you provide that information, then you can duplicate the substrate conditions and proceed to show us what weight and foot dimensions are required to produce a print of the same depth..

Holding up a cast, showing us a photo of a print and proclaiming:

" A real, live, walking foot made this print, and here is a cast of that print. "

.... may pass for indisputable evidence in some circles, but it doesn't even come close, here ..
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Old 25th September 2007, 07:15 AM   #7685
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Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
So what? Maybe Chris Murphy's version is wrong.

In what way does that increase the likelihood of the PG film being a hoax?
It can support a theory of a hoax if we see incongruencies in event sequences, film documentation, timelines, and less-than-full disclosure from P&G.

Knowing that Murphy is obviously wrong is not just a trivial fact that was just learned. It points directly to an outstanding problem for any student of the PGF. It tells you that when any PGF author makes a statement, it may not be true. We learn that those authors will say things that are unsupportable by the evidence on hand. Almost nothing can be taken for granted. These authors all face a similar problem. The only way to tell the story of how the PGF happened is to tell the story(s) told by Patterson and Gimlin. That story is always told with the unstated presumption that P&G are telling truths. Everyone writes about how Patty was filmed in the afternoon of October 20, 1967. But that in itself is assumed because it's the story that P&G told everyone. We have no direct evidence that the date is accurate.

Imagine yourself now trying to write a 2-page essay on the story of how the PGF came to be and what happened at Bluff Creek. Which time-of-day do you pick for the initial Patty encounter? Did Roger's horse rear-up and crush his foot, or what? Did they track Patty for 3.5 miles, or what? How many Patty tracks did Roger cast? Do you describe the plaster pouring footage as being a staged demonstration, or as showing Roger making casts of the actual footprints of Patty?

The take home message is that there is still more to learn from the PGF, and that famous Bigfoot authors who try to document the PGF may not be stating facts.

We know that Murphy was wrong, and now we want to know what gave Meldrum the confidence to say that the cast display footage was taken back in Yakima after the Patty encounter.
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Old 25th September 2007, 08:32 AM   #7686
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Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
Tube says there is an issue regarding the plaster pouring and cast segments.....but when asked for for more details about these "issues".....all you smart skeptics can come up with is....

1) Who said it did?

Perhaps it will decrease it?

2) In what way does it decrease the likelihood that there is no Bigfoot ?

3) Put a number on that yet, Sweaty? You have calculated that, right?

And from Tube........golden silence.

Apparantly there is no real issue, or problem, concerning the plaster casts.
Oh wicked. The master of golden silences and intellectual cowardice once again opened his mouth just long enough to stick his foot in it.

So for all your talk of weighing the probabilities, you can't tell me by how many percentage points I can jack up my likelihood of the PGF being a hoax statistic in light of some little knit-picks such as:

- Hey man, so the horse fell on you and crushed a stirrup or you did a Legolas off the back of the horse, camera in hand?

- Hey man, so did you bring the gear to stage a plaster casting and filming it before catching one in a million with Patty or did you film your self casting Patty's tracks after the filming.

- Yeah hey Bob, I know you don't remember using the camera and all but any thoughts on the shots showing you AND Rog?

That's just a few of many, mind you. That's not even including the great big easy ones.

Quote:
Actually.....the problem I see regarding the footprints at the scene, was how Roger even made them, considering how much weight was required to depress the soil as deeply as it was.
We'd love to hear your math.

Quote:
In addition to that...why did he bother making the fake trackway continue so far beyond the point where the filming stopped.....when all he had to do was turn left and go up into the woods. Instead the trackway turned to the right and continued across the open creekbed.
I love when Pattycakes drop whoppers like these. Yes, why would Roger put concerted effort into making a hoax appear legitimate? This is coming of course from the logic of the kid with the Martian civilization photo collection. Go get 'em, Sweaty!

I sense another golden silence coming soon.
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Old 25th September 2007, 08:56 AM   #7687
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
Just to display some of my devoutness, how 'bout this: Are there any threads concerning the search for the elusive "li'lfoot"? By this, I mean is there anybody discussing the possibility that the 'hobbit', or florens man, has managed to survive until present? C'mon, just think of all the possibilities, and the comparative ease it would be to conduct individual research. For example, I'm assuming that a person would need a relatively small amount of plaster and such. And we could just bang some small sticks and stuff. But, seriously I would like to know if this has been proposed here. It would be darned interesting to me. Just imagine, people traipsing through the jungles of New Guinea searching for 'small head'-ed people.
Thanks, man. They have some really good (to me) articles on the 'hobbit' at Livescience.

ETA: I have been to Port Moresby and had a good, safe (and inebriated) time there.
MOTS, I'm going to go ahead and be the guy that barks USE THE SEARCH FEATURE at you. Usually I'm the guy that falls over bringing you a link but I'm still crippled by upgrade weirdness.

Tell you what, I'll meet you half way. For a good start and an easy read with both WP and Correa weighing in on the subject, click that search feature and look for the thread titled 'flores man... please be real'.

Here's your starter question. Do you think Homo floresiensis feet and purported orang pendek prints are a match?

("Inbreeding!" I hear the hairy homo apologists say.)
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6

Last edited by kitakaze; 25th September 2007 at 09:29 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old 25th September 2007, 09:03 AM   #7688
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Quote:
In addition to that...why did he bother making the fake trackway continue so far beyond the point where the filming stopped.....when all he had to do was turn left and go up into the woods. Instead the trackway turned to the right and continued across the open creekbed.
Yes, a sasquatch should have hit the woods immediately. I'm glad you agree.

BH probably could not climb a hill or manuever through trees very well in the suit, in answer to your hypothetical.
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Old 25th September 2007, 09:24 AM   #7689
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
BH probably could not climb a hill or manuever through trees very well in the suit, in answer to your hypothetical.
I'll have a side of Luminous bait, extra bold.
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2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

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Old 25th September 2007, 09:39 AM   #7690
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Did someone say 'little bigfoot'?
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Old 25th September 2007, 10:27 AM   #7691
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Yes, a sasquatch should have hit the woods immediately. I'm glad you agree.
Wrong, LTC. I did not say that a Sasquatch 'should have turned left'.

My question is why would ROGER turn right, and continue walking much further than he had ANY REASON to, with heavy weight on his back?

If the trackway was faked...someone would have had to walk a long way with a LOT of extra weight on themselves to make impressions as deep as they were.

It makes zero sense for that person to walk many feet longer than was necessary, to make a trackway to co-incide with the filmed walk.
Yet that's what the skeptics here propose happened.



Quote:
BH probably could not climb a hill or manuever through trees very well in the suit, in answer to your hypothetical.
There would have been no need for the supposed 'man-in-the-suit' to continue walking more than just a few feet into the woods. The footprints would have naturally faded on the forest floor.
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Old 25th September 2007, 10:39 AM   #7692
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Good ol' Sweat. Just ignore whatever doesn't fit the point you think you got.
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 25th September 2007, 10:53 AM   #7693
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Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
If the trackway was faked...someone would have had to walk a long way with a LOT of extra weight on themselves to make impressions as deep as they were.
Again ..

What trackway ? ( documented where )

How deep ?

How was it determined how deep it was and how it was made ?

You can't claim what someone can and can't do without experimenting ( or producing the documented work of others ) and demonstrating whether what you claim is possible or not...


You seem to be confused about which forum you are posting on ...
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Old 25th September 2007, 12:28 PM   #7694
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Is it even a given that the Patty subject made the casts that were casted? Perhaps the Patty Subject did not weigh enough to make any footprints, and with the oversized feet just glided across the ground without sinking in.
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Old 25th September 2007, 01:08 PM   #7695
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Quote:
The footprints would have naturally faded on the forest floor.
Yeah, after about 3.5 miles...

I guess Sweaty thinks if he keeps on saying the same thing, "heavy weight", we'll just get tired and let it go.

Well, we won't. There is no actual connection between any tracks found at the site, and the biped that was filmed by RP. There is no evidence that any tracks were any deeper than those that would be left by a human being.

"Roger said so", is not evidence. Gimlin filming Roger pouring casts is just a film of Roger pouring casts unless it can be shown that it's related to the PGF.

Sweaty, who filmed Roger and Bob riding the horses?
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Old 25th September 2007, 03:39 PM   #7696
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Sweaty, who filmed Roger and Bob riding the horses?
Oh now come on! A third person at Bluff Creek getting a panned shot of both Gimlin and Patterson, and then zooming in on Roger? You PGF skeptics will grab at any straw you can find.
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Old 26th September 2007, 06:17 AM   #7697
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Oh now come on! A third person at Bluff Creek getting a panned shot of both Gimlin and Patterson, and then zooming in on Roger? You PGF skeptics will grab at any straw you can find.
We don't have any proof that the camera man was even a man... perhaps it was Patty her/itself. hmmm?
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Old 26th September 2007, 06:37 AM   #7698
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No saddlebags on either man's horse as far as I can tell. If they have rifles, they are on the left side of the horses as far as I can tell.
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Old 26th September 2007, 07:09 AM   #7699
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Why was the pack horse with them when they were riding around looking to film bigfoot?

They came back to their camp to sleep and eat, etc. The camp was close to Bluff Creek. Even if they brought lunch and water for two, that would fit in their saddle bags.

If they did not eat lunch in camp, where did they eat lunch?

So, what was the pack horse for? It obviously wasn't carrying casting supplies. What was it carrying that they needed while riding around looking for tracks and signs of bigfoot? A second roll of film is small and should have been with Patterson in his saddlebags. Their rifles would be on their own horses in scabbards.

I suppose it could have been carrying horse feed, but it seems likely that they'd feed the horses back at camp at the end of the day. Gimlin says they fed the horses at camp the night of the filming.

Is there any indication that Roger and Bob were staying overnight away from their camp? Even so, you can easily camp out overnight without a pack horse.
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Old 26th September 2007, 11:11 AM   #7700
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
......................
Is there any indication that Roger and Bob were staying overnight away from their camp? Even so, you can easily camp out overnight without a pack horse.
Gimlin related in the green interview that they loaded up the pack horse in the event
they decided to spend the night..

Of course, not taking casting material seems like a bit of an oversight, since the purpose
of the whole trip was allegedly to investigate tracks....
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Old 26th September 2007, 12:59 PM   #7701
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They don't appear to be going far enough from camp to need to stay overnight. They knew they were going back to Bluff Creek that day, where they'd been before, and it was not far from their camp.

If you are going within easy riding distance of your camp, why prepare to spend the night? You can just ride back into camp, like you did to get the casting materials.

After that ride back and forth to camp for plaster, they still had plenty of daylight, right? So how far away could they have been?
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Old 26th September 2007, 01:23 PM   #7702
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http://www.bigfootencounters.com/interviews/john.htm

Quote:
Gimlin: The day we got the film footage, I left early in the morning and Roger slept in. I just rode out and around, I always got up early and so I rode on out. My horse loosened a shoe and I came back in to tack the shoe on tighter. About 10:00, mid morning or so, I sat around there for a little while, because Roger was gone when I got back. Supposedly he had gone down the creek there, ..ah Bluff Creek there and after awhile he came back and asked what area I had covered that morning? I told him and he says why don’t we ride up into this area we had ridden into before, a desolate type area down a couple of canyons, there’s a creek running through it. So we went ahead and fixed lunch and he said let’s get our gear together so when we ride out we can stay if we have to and stay a little bit later into the night if we need to. We packed up the pack horse and it was about mid day, perhaps a little bit after noon time when we went around this bend in the creek bed. There was a fallen tree and as we came around it there was this creature standing by the creek. That’s when everything started happening. The horses started jumping around, raising the devil and spooking from this creature. Roger, well his horse was rearing up and jumping around. . .he slid off him, got his camera out of the saddle bags and started trying to get pictures of this creature as it was walking away.
I don't find the pack horse out of line with being prepared to stay out a while, if the found themselves far from base camp after dark..

I do find no casting casting gear out of line.. It's what they were there for..
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Old 26th September 2007, 02:02 PM   #7703
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
So, what was the pack horse for? It obviously wasn't carrying casting supplies.
How do you know they didn't carry casting supplies everywhere with them? Is it because Gimlin said they had to return to the truck to get the plaster after the Patty encounter? How can we know if that statement is true anyway?

If P&G did hoax the trackway, it would have been odd to leave the plaster behind when they decided to do it. Why start making hoaxed footprints if you don't have the plaster on hand?

Could some of these horseback scenes have been filmed in Yakima or elsewhere in Washington, before the trip to Bluff Creek?
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Old 26th September 2007, 03:13 PM   #7704
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I just find the pack horse odd. Two guys on horseback should not need a pack horse to film scenery and camp out overnight. The only extra gear they supposedly had with them was the movie camera and an extra roll of film, and possibly a still camera. Rifles are normal and are in scabbards on your own horse.

Assuming they really did not have casting materials with them, then they knew they would have to return to camp if they came upon any tracks they wanted to cast.

Then again, what does a guy who is going to hoax a film at Bluff Creek need a pack horse for???
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Old 26th September 2007, 03:23 PM   #7705
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What's unbelievable is that you have all of this telephoning going on about the film and the events at Bluff Creek to just about every bigtime footer in the area, and not one of them goes out to the site of the filming to see it and document it for themselves.

Not one.

On Sunday, Dahinden, McClarin, and Green see the film. They still don't go out to the site, though.

I have to believe that they wanted to go out to the site, but were not able to for some reason, such as Patterson wouldn't tell them the location.

I cannot believe they weren't chomping at the bit to get out there.
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What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 26th September 2007, 03:37 PM   #7706
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By October 25th, they have gone to the trouble of setting up a screening in B.C. at the university, but no one has bothered to look at the site.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 26th September 2007, 03:42 PM   #7707
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Bob Titmus went to Bluff Creek after seeing the screening at UBC. Does he count? Laverty may have heard or read about it locally before he found the tracks.
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Old 26th September 2007, 04:01 PM   #7708
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Quote:
Bob Titmus went to Bluff Creek after seeing the screening at UBC. Does he count?
No. He acted normally. Had he seen the film at DeAtley's on Sunday, I'm sure he'd have been up there on Monday, like the rest should have been.

From Sanderson. Has anyone seen this Kunsler drawing of Patty?

Quote:
Roger Patterson was at one time employed in show business, and Bob Gimlin was not available when a film unit went to make a documentary of this affair, and the creature in the film does look exactly like a drawing by Mr. Martin Kunsler for an article published by Sports Afield in 1960
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 26th September 2007, 04:04 PM   #7709
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The pack horse may have been used mostly as a prop for Roger's Bigfoot search "documentary". He may have thought it gave the footage a look of realism. The guys are out looking for Bigfoot and need a pack horse because they are fully equipped for anything anywhere anytime. Roger at least wants it to look that way in his documentary. It was the same thing when he put a wig on Gimlin. Create a dramatic but false world around your film.

I noticed something else. When we first see P&G and the pack horse - the black pack horse carries bulky saddlebags. In the next scene - a white pack horse is carrying large wooden boxes. All of a sudden we get a white horse that isn't in the first scene.

We now have to account for at least 4 horses and 3 men.

Look
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Old 26th September 2007, 04:56 PM   #7710
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I have said it over and over..
This is all about Patterson's ( Patterson the would-be producer /director ) documentary ..
He made a costume for the documentary, shot the footage ( maybe early September ), had a look at it with 1967 projection technology, decided to float it as a real encounter and the rest is history ...

Gimlin made a decision to go along, and never decided on the right time to come clean..
Now it's too late .. ( in his mind ) ..
If there was a million dollars on the table, the story might be different.
Problem is, no one with a million dollars cares...

Patty Patterson knows the truth. She is not ambitious and wants to be left alone. At the least, no offer has been big enough ..

That's my rough take on it ...
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Old 26th September 2007, 05:07 PM   #7711
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
MOTS, I'm going to go ahead and be the guy that barks USE THE SEARCH FEATURE at you. Usually I'm the guy that falls over bringing you a link but I'm still crippled by upgrade weirdness.

Tell you what, I'll meet you half way. For a good start and an easy read with both WP and Correa weighing in on the subject, click that search feature and look for the thread titled 'flores man... please be real'.

Here's your starter question. Do you think Homo floresiensis feet and purported orang pendek prints are a match?

("Inbreeding!" I hear the hairy homo apologists say.)
Got one too many beer on my bloodstream right now, maybe that's why I can't remember that thread...

Got one too many beer on my bloodstream right now, maybe that's why I'm feeling too lazy to use the search function, LOL...

Got one too many beer on my bloodstream right now, maybe that's why I fail to see anything new, but despite of this, carry on...
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Old 26th September 2007, 05:09 PM   #7712
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Did someone say 'little bigfoot'?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...939c510bf4.jpg
Four toes?
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Old 26th September 2007, 06:14 PM   #7713
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I've been advised of a very interesting website by an individual deep within my secret cabal of cryptid informants. Thus, while I would like to take credit for impressive Google-fu in all matters Crypto, I cannot.

http://www.pulpanddagger.com/canuck/Kong_mask.html

Two photos from the site show the "undersuit" that Rick Baker is wearing:





The most interesting part for me is that professional ape costumers recognise the limitations of the cheap and baggy ape-suit, which they derisively call a "boo suit", and work hard to create the illusion of musculature:

"Far from being a simple zippered boo-suit, the costume invented for Kong '76 (actually four costumes were used) realistically depicted the appropriate musculature beneath the fur through a special undersuit with silicone filled muscles."
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Old 26th September 2007, 07:10 PM   #7714
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LTC8K6,

I think Sanderson means Kunstler.


m

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Old 26th September 2007, 07:45 PM   #7715
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I recognise the issue has been brought up before, by Correa Neto I believe, but I though I would revisit it because of what I've found recently. Here is a skeletal reconstruction of "Patty" by Reuben Steinforf, of 5'7" Patty fame:

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.p...&mode=threaded



Over on Metafilter, a front page post came up recently that referenced the work of Hyungkoo Lee's cartoon character skeletons:

http://www.metafilter.com/65005/Hyun...oon-characters

Lee is an outstanding sculptor, and frankly puts Steindorf in the dust artistically:




Other artists besides Lee and Steindorf have had the same idea, and frankly my favorite is a much less sublime image:

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Old 27th September 2007, 01:20 AM   #7716
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
MOTS, Huh?
USE THE SEARCH FEATURE The what?

Here's your starter question. Do you think Homo floresiensis feet and purported orang pendek prints are a match? Orange what?

)
But really, thanks.

The film discussion is deep. The depth of new arguments concerning a 40 year old film is incredible.
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Old 27th September 2007, 05:14 AM   #7717
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This is a sweet breakdown of the padding BOBBY H wore that day in Willow Creek.
http://www.bermuda-triangle.org/html/unmasked.html
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Old 27th September 2007, 05:24 AM   #7718
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Quote:
I noticed something else. When we first see P&G and the pack horse - the black pack horse carries bulky saddlebags. In the next scene - a white pack horse is carrying large wooden boxes. All of a sudden we get a white horse that isn't in the first scene.
Yep. The more we study, the more we see. Bob only brought 3 horses, though...
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 27th September 2007, 05:42 AM   #7719
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
This is a sweet breakdown of the padding BOBBY H wore that day in Willow Creek.
http://www.bermuda-triangle.org/html/unmasked.html
I disagree. I saw that article previously and was unimpressed. I agree with the author that the padded suit reveals itself in a few ways, but his ability to clearly explain things is poor. It needs severe editing. For one thing, the arrow that is supposed to indicate a nipple is located in the wrong place.

Additionally, the author keeps talking about a padded bodysuit underneath a costume skin. That may have been used, but if so it would rule out the testimony of Bob Heironimus. He didn't put on a bodysuit before putting on the costume itself.
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Old 27th September 2007, 06:11 AM   #7720
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You're right, the body suit angle does not make sense.
*Some good points are the hair on the chest and the folded padding/fur on the back of the arms and tops of the thighs.
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