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23rd September 2008, 04:46 AM | #16401 |
Illuminator
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23rd September 2008, 05:19 AM | #16402 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2005
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Thanks for posting that. You saved me the trouble of typing it out from the book. Where did you get the clip of Grover?
"In medicine, death by natural causes is a loosely-defined term used by coroners describing death when the cause of death was a naturally occurring disease process, or is not apparent given medical history or circumstances. Thus, deaths caused by active human intervention (as opposed to the failure of medical intervention to prevent death) are excluded from this definition, and are described as unnatural deaths." -Wikipedia I would not consider death by drowning "natural causes". Grover was pointing out how unlikely it is to find bones of a sasquatch when we don't find bones of naturally dying bears when bears may be 100 times more numerous. Maybe with a funded study some would turn up. Start looking here: |
23rd September 2008, 05:24 AM | #16403 |
Thinker
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 186
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Skeptical Videos
Yeah - I sent you an off-line message through YouTube. I think it can be a great vehicle for sharing information and it is time that some people (like Captain Disillusion") use it to spread logic and reason since there is a grossly disproportionate amount of nonsense perpetuated out there.
But I'm slowly (in my so-called "free time") working on what I call "skeptisode guides" to paranormal TV shows on my website www.doctoratlantis.com/skeptisode.htm. If I can get all the parts together my next Bigfoot video will address Patty's walk. |
23rd September 2008, 06:12 AM | #16404 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2003
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Oh, LAL, I already answered. Once again, since it seems you haven't noticed it - I saw it. Too bad you fail to acknoweledge the real nature and the many shortcomings of the material presented there - wild speculations mostly based on anecdotes.
Bigfootery has been repacking and reselling the same decades-old pieces of unreliable evidence, sometimes adding some new (usually baseless) speculations. LMS (the book and the video) is an example of this; may eventually be entertaining, but that's all- entertainement purposes only. Since wild speculations and anecdotes can not substitute absence of reliable evidence and poor methodology, these works have little chances to convince skeptics. If the material were half as good as footers claim, it would have made to Nature. But we all know that a paper based on evidence suspected of being hoaxed will not make it. Come to think of it, what happened at bigfootery lastly? Nothing but hoaxes coupled with the odd anecdote. The bigfoot body recently found surely put an end to the whole "silly suit business"... The stunning Tomagami bigfoot imagery surely are high-quality evidence... |
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Racism, sexism, ignorance, homophobia, intolerance, extremism, authoritarianism, environmental disasters, politically correct crap, violence at sport stadiums, slavery, poverty, wars, people who disagree with me: Together we can find the cure Oh, and together we can find a cure to religion too… |
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23rd September 2008, 06:15 AM | #16405 |
Philosopher
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Posts: 8,594
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No. It isn't.
The ash deposit was merely inches thick and the lateral blast deposits were only 3ft thick at the volcano. The resulting landslide due to the collapse of the side of the volcano was an average of 150ft thick but was confined to the valley of the Toutle River. All rather moot anyway as the majority of reported BF sightings in Washington are west and north of Mt. St.Helens, according to the map of BF sightings for Washington at BFRO , whereas the area most affected by the eruption was to the northeast and east. So, not that many BF in the area to be buried, by the looks of things. Again, it's always handy to check facts before speculating. |
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Vote like you’re poor. A closed mouth gathers no feet" "Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke "It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite |
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23rd September 2008, 06:19 AM | #16406 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2005
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Do you actually think 7000 dead animals were found? It was an estimate.
Wolves and wolverines were thought to be extinct in the area but later were found to not be extinct in the area. They may just have been there all along. (Of course I heard anecdotes about them still being around so I wasn't overly surprised when the officials caught up with local lore.)
Quote:
Quote:
A cyber friend sent me information on how estimates are made (she took a course in it) when I was wondering how they got a remnant of 3-6 mountain lions in Great Smokies National Park. I'll post it later when I find it if you're interested. |
23rd September 2008, 06:26 AM | #16407 |
Illuminator
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Please point me to the post where you already answered. I can't find it. Call analysis, films and casts don't seem to be anecdotes to me. Just how was any of that based on anecdotes? And how were the analyses "wild speculation"? Do you remember Dr. Andrew Nelson's conclusions on the PGF? |
23rd September 2008, 06:32 AM | #16408 |
Illuminator
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23rd September 2008, 06:49 AM | #16409 |
Philosopher
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Racism, sexism, ignorance, homophobia, intolerance, extremism, authoritarianism, environmental disasters, politically correct crap, violence at sport stadiums, slavery, poverty, wars, people who disagree with me: Together we can find the cure Oh, and together we can find a cure to religion too… |
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23rd September 2008, 07:30 AM | #16410 |
Illuminator
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23rd September 2008, 07:36 AM | #16411 |
Philosopher
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http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ostcount=16183
The calls- Not confirmed as being from bigfeet, other options not The film- Suspected of being a hoax, too blurry The casts- Suspected of being hoaxes and misidentifications Lots of things regarding PGF are anecdotal- all we have are actually anecdotes. Patterson and Gimlim claim the film is from a female bigfoot; they and other people claim that the footprints were made by the film subject; Hieronimus claims to be the guy in the suit and Morris claims he was involved on making it. None of the above individuals managed to back the claims propperly. Anecdote. The "hoaxers would not replicate hernia" stuff? Not sure if it was from the book or video. Would you be surprised to know I was not impressed? Would you be surprised to know that this is because I doubt PGF has enough definition to support such level of detail analysis (hernias, moving toes/fingers, facial expressions, braids, poops, bullet wounds, etc. are a no-go)? |
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Racism, sexism, ignorance, homophobia, intolerance, extremism, authoritarianism, environmental disasters, politically correct crap, violence at sport stadiums, slavery, poverty, wars, people who disagree with me: Together we can find the cure Oh, and together we can find a cure to religion too… |
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23rd September 2008, 07:56 AM | #16412 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
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Well, as the #1 fruitcake in this thread, thanks sharky, I'd just like to congratulate the troops. Well done. Just a reminder that the burden is not on us and I am proud of the fact that we take the burden on anyway.
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What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break? |
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23rd September 2008, 08:03 AM | #16413 |
Thinker
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 186
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1) I got the clip from A&E's "Ancient Mysteries: Bigfoot".
2) Longer answer required: Grover was saying we don't find bears of "naturally dying bears" to distinguish the rarity of finding a corpse of a bear that died from non-human intervention (rare) from those that die at the hand of man through hunting or car-accidents (extremely common). It's a form of special pleading. He's saying if you take this subset of the population of this known living creature and only look for the those we find which were "stumbled upon" (my words) then you won't find any. Only you do. Now you want to exclude those that drowned? Be serious. At best he's making a strained comparison. We know there are bears. We see bears. We find their bodies. We hunt them. We photograph them. There is a lot more evidence for bears than just the bodies, mind. Even if you didn't see bears their population is known from hair traps which carry their DNA, and scat samples which also carry DNA. But we do see bears. So if Bigfoot are so rare that we'll never find bones, then how come people keep seeing them? And if they're so common that people see them frequently, then how come they're never hit by cars or shot - in other words why do we have no bodies? People see animal bodies all the time. I live in North Georgia (which I would not characterize as Bigfoot Country). I see dead deer, raccoons, opossum, squirrels, birds, cats, dogs, and turtles on the road with such frequency and regularity that I barely take notice unless the kill is either spectacularly gruesome or unusually stinky. The bones should be there if the creature is there. A lack of bones isn't proof that there is no Bigfoot - but a surfeit of bones would certainly stick in the craw of skeptics who wanted to deny the creature's existence. As a skeptic myself, I still admit that Bigfoot is my favorite cryptid. Much to the dismay of my wife who has to endure me TIVOing every show to do with "Big & Hairy." I'm waiting for the bones, the body, or the live specimen. Costumes in a freezer just aren't to my taste, despite their being such a local delicacy. |
23rd September 2008, 09:03 AM | #16414 |
Philosopher
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Another interesting thing to do would be to stop playing the victim role, since many a footer quite often abuse the freedom of speech that exists here.
Skeptics at this (and other boards) are frequently offended by footers. After countless pages of verbal abuse from certain posters, no wonder sometimes a skeptic will send one or two flaming torpedoes aimed towards a footer. |
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Racism, sexism, ignorance, homophobia, intolerance, extremism, authoritarianism, environmental disasters, politically correct crap, violence at sport stadiums, slavery, poverty, wars, people who disagree with me: Together we can find the cure Oh, and together we can find a cure to religion too… |
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23rd September 2008, 09:07 AM | #16415 |
Loose Cannon
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Posts: 475
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Wow.... just ....wow.... methinks Carch that you might just want to look into some anger management classes,but seeings how you went to all the trouble of typing out your little cry baby tirade I'll play along.
Have you ever for one second thought that maybe just maybe some of us are intrigued by the thought processes involved with a person who BLEEVS that a heretofore undiscovered 8 foot tall Hairy Biped roams throughout every stretch of tall trees across the whole of the US in great enough numbers to sustain a breeding population and has done so for at least 400 years despite the utter dirth of any meanigful evidence. Furthermore that enaging these people and their lack of any real criitical thinking skills might just be considered interesting to some of us?? Have you ever allowed that thought to squeeze it's way into your skull Carchy ol bean?? This is what's called a hobby Carch...and interesting activity that we like to spend a bit of our day doing....I "waste" as you like to put it roughly an hour a day doing this...hardly an obsession. There's also a wee bit of fighting the good fight involved....can't allow TRU BLEEVER to gain any ground don't ya know...lest the entire world be overrun with Ghost researchers and Bigfeetsus Field Reps. |
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Get the fork ready......cuz Bigfeet is about done!! |
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23rd September 2008, 09:10 AM | #16416 |
Loose Cannon
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Get the fork ready......cuz Bigfeet is about done!! |
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23rd September 2008, 09:24 AM | #16417 |
Loose Cannon
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 475
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Lu do you actually think that they didn't find dead animals in any numbers at all to base this estimate on?? Do you think they saw one dead example of each species and leapt to an arbitrary number of 7,000 individuals??
What about wolves?? What about wolverines? They may have been there all along?? Ahh but they may not have either Lu...ever allow that to enter your thinking?? On the other hand Bigfeetsus were said to have been in the area...hell it was a relative Hot Zone of Hairy Bipedal shenanigans...yet not a single Sasquatch body among the known dead. Oh yeah...I forgot...they were buried under a mile of ash...yeah.....that's the ticket. |
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Get the fork ready......cuz Bigfeet is about done!! |
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23rd September 2008, 09:38 AM | #16418 |
Illuminator
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Location: Inland NW
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What happened to PGF?
Hey, Sweaty, #27. |
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Normal in a weird way. |
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23rd September 2008, 09:57 AM | #16419 |
Philosopher
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Diferent pattyfaces... Lots of artistic freedom IMHO.
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Racism, sexism, ignorance, homophobia, intolerance, extremism, authoritarianism, environmental disasters, politically correct crap, violence at sport stadiums, slavery, poverty, wars, people who disagree with me: Together we can find the cure Oh, and together we can find a cure to religion too… |
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23rd September 2008, 10:05 AM | #16420 |
Loose Cannon
Join Date: Mar 2006
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The PGF has pretty much been slapped silly on this thread for 3 years.
The timeline,the suit,the detail,the filmstock,the frame speed,the editing, Rodge's past,Bob H's past,shadow angle ...pretty much all of it. It all ends up devolving though into Lu incessantly reciting long passages of anecdotal evidence or Sweetsy yammering on and on about "replicate the suit...aaaaaaaahh" Given this knowledge...to me this has become the Bigfeetsus thread not just the PGF thread...and all Bigfeetsus lore is open to debate. But anyone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. |
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Get the fork ready......cuz Bigfeet is about done!! |
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23rd September 2008, 11:45 AM | #16421 |
Graduate Poster
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Yeah, somebody should make up a list of bigfoot myths that keep popping up in this thread. That way when somebody starts talking about the gait can not be duplicated, everyone can respond "see answer to bigfoot myth #1" where this video clip/experiment is described with the appropriate link. That would save a lot of time and commentary IMO.
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23rd September 2008, 12:10 PM | #16422 |
Thinker
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 186
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Well, it'll take me a long time to get to all of them, but here's a start:
www.doctoratlantis.com/bigfoot_myths.htm |
23rd September 2008, 01:11 PM | #16423 |
Philosopher
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Originally Posted by crowlogic
First lets not to mix apples with oranges. One thing is an individual tendering a belief – this boils down to individual rights and choices. Want to spend money buying bigfoot books, bigfoot videos, cameras to capture bigfoot images, etc.? Want to spend days hunting for bigfoot among the woods? OK. It’s your hobby, it’s not my problem or anyone else’s (#1). It is the very same thing as collecting Star Wars or Star Trek memorabilia. Some might consider silly, but so what? Note that discussing pseudoscience may also be a hobby. And don’t even dare mentioning my Klingon cruiser plastic model kit. How the individual communicates this belief to the society, the influence of this belief with his/hers relationships within the society are completely different things. It is true that no substantial resources are being diverted from good science towards bigfootery (at least this seems to be the case). However, some footers quite often (willing or not) spread misinformations and half truths. This is what skeptics are fighting. No one is fighting someone’s right to believe in bigfoot. It’s the spreading of lies, of half-truths, of misinformation which is being fought. Make no mistake, misinformation spreading can be potentially harmful. No big motivation to change the world. Just setting a couple of things straight. #1- Unless you are using the money supposed to buy your toddler’s milk or will need to be rescued… |
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Racism, sexism, ignorance, homophobia, intolerance, extremism, authoritarianism, environmental disasters, politically correct crap, violence at sport stadiums, slavery, poverty, wars, people who disagree with me: Together we can find the cure Oh, and together we can find a cure to religion too… |
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23rd September 2008, 04:32 PM | #16424 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,255
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That was no answer. I asked if you'd seen it and got a dismissal of sources. And then you asked me a question you would have known the answer to if you'd actually seen it.
Quote:
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See above.
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MK Davis wasn't in LMS either. |
23rd September 2008, 05:10 PM | #16425 |
Agave Wine Connoisseur
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Monsterquest .. No bias there ... Nosiree ..
Besides they didn't try to do the walk - they tried to pose like the subject of the film .. Not exactly the same task .. |
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Maybe later.... |
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23rd September 2008, 05:14 PM | #16426 |
Illuminator
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I didn't mean just ash; I didn't make that clear. I've read (somewhere other than on the Internet) Harry Truman was buried under 200' of mud and ash. I couldn't find that but I did find this:
"From: Tilling, Topinka, and Swanson, 1990, Eruptions of Mount St. Helens: Past, Present, and Future: USGS General Interest Publication. ... Part of the avalanche ( May 18, 1980 eruption of Mount St. Helens) surged into and across Spirit Lake, but most of it flowed westward into the upper reaches of the North Fork of the Toutle River. At one location, about 4 miles north of the summit, the advancing front of the avalanche still had sufficient momentum to flow over a ridge more than 1,150 feet high. The resulting hummocky avalanche deposit consisted of intermixed volcanic debris, glacial ice, and, possibly, water displaced from Spirit Lake. ... The dumping of avalanche debris into Spirit Lake raised its bottom by about 295 feet and its water level by about 200 feet. ..." Rick Noll noted in his presentation at the Willow Creek Symposium 2003 an area may have reported activity, then nothing for 10 years, then reported activity again. He didn't know why. |
23rd September 2008, 05:25 PM | #16427 |
Muse
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23rd September 2008, 06:50 PM | #16428 |
Agave Wine Connoisseur
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Maybe later.... |
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23rd September 2008, 07:49 PM | #16429 |
Illuminator
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There weren't any when I came in. I was here alone for about nine months and at no time did I denigrate, mock, swear or abuse the freedom of speech. I did use the term "scoftic" at one point (but not directed at anyone in particular) borrowed from Roger Knights because it seemed appropriate. When Huntster joined he was greeted with, "Oh good, another wacko." I can't imagine Roger Knights, or Kathy Strain or Henry May abusing the freedom of speech here. "Many a footer"? You mean Sweaty and carcharodon? That's two They're more than outnumbered.
Did you read this? "Let's cool off the discussion a little please. Remember the MA, and do not resort to attacking each other. Let's keep it civil, and on topic, and also let's not start off topic arguments about other boards. All posts after this point need to be civil, and on the topic of Bigfoot - nothing else. Posted By:chillzero" I'm not a bigfoot. You can't talk about me. |
23rd September 2008, 08:47 PM | #16430 |
New Blood
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 11
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I'm just gonna hop in here for 2 minutes and say that I did my own Bigfoot search a few years back. I lived near a huge forest and me and some friends decided to go look for it. We went prepared, carrying baseball bats, a tape recorder and video camera. We went deep into the middle somewhere on a trail, and sat down. We then took the tape recorder and played a bigfoot sound (which we found on the internet) as loud as it could. Waited.....waited......
We heard some sounds returning, enough to scare the crap out of us, and we got up and ran away. The video tape showed nothing visual or audio, and so we concluded that we were pansies and probably ran away from a raccoon. But that didn't stop us from going to school with the bigfoot sound on the recorder, and telling everybody that we recorded bigfoot in a forest. What happened next? Well we got people to actually believe (and try to make other people believe) that we were authentic. Teachers knew about it, other students. It was great. Moral of the story. Bigfoot seems to be more of a legend that's passed down to people, and people will believe it whether or not they've had any experience with it. It's quite possible that an animal exists that's been called bigfoot, that hasn't been documented. I'd put my money on that option, instead of sound bytes and videos. And the last conclusion that I heard a comedian say about Bigfoot is that, Bigfoot must be blurry. The videos are fine, the animal is just blurry. |
23rd September 2008, 10:19 PM | #16431 |
Illuminator
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24th September 2008, 01:23 AM | #16432 | ||
Penultimate Amazing
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