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View Poll Results: The raid was...
Absolutely a good thing - no question 128 77.58%
An outrage, a travesty - what about Magna Carta? Did she die in vain? 4 2.42%
I'll wait before I make a judgement thank you. 27 16.36%
Mar-X-Lago! 6 3.64%
Voters: 165. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 23rd September 2022, 06:54 AM   #2881
Bob001
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
.....
If trump does get convicted and is sentenced to prison, it will be to a so-called 'white collar' prison, a low-security prison. One without bars or even, for the most part, locks. But judging by comments made by some high profile people who have served prison sentences in one of the low security prisons, it is far from "a cakewalk." Bernard Kerik, a former New York City Police Commissioner (later pardoned by trump), served three years in a federal 'white collar' prison in Cumberland Maryland. He says the experience was horrendous.

A former FBI agent, currently serving a fifteen year sentence for official corruption, says trump -- given his high profile -- would probably have to be placed in solitary, isolated from other inmates, even in a 'white collar' prison. One reason is, as Bernard Kerik explained, in today's white collar prisons there are many "inner city inmates," mostly drug dealers serving short sentences with no history of violent behavior. How they would react to being in contact with trump is an unknown, of course, but prison officials would be likely to handle the former president very cautiously, keeping him isolated from other inmates. Being warden of the prison where donald trump was beaten or worse, would be the ultimate career-killer. And they'd know it.
It's almost impossible to believe a president could be sentenced to actual prison. I could imagine house arrest in a property controlled by the government, maybe on a military base, or even a facility built for the purpose on prison grounds. But Trump isn't going to genpop.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 06:57 AM   #2882
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
As has been said more than once every accusation is a confession. Trump literally is incapable of understanding that not everyone is like him.
When people are critical of his actions - stiffing his contractors, philandering, lying, sexual assault... - he thinks that those people are just secretly jealous of him - that they wish they'd had the balls to be as cool as he is. That's why no effort to shame him for his immorality will ever succeed. He thinks those qualities are what makes him a "winner". The only way to really shame him is to target his vanity. Mock his intelligence or appearance and he's truly wounded. But call him a liar and a thief and he seems to secretly enjoy it.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 07:00 AM   #2883
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It's almost impossible to believe a president could be sentenced to actual prison. I could imagine house arrest in a property controlled by the government, maybe on a military base, or even a facility built for the purpose on prison grounds. But Trump isn't going to genpop.
Likely the best we can hope for is a comedy skit about Trump in Oz, like the Seinfeld in Oz skit.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 07:17 AM   #2884
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Likely the best we can hope for is a comedy skit about Trump in Oz, like the Seinfeld in Oz skit.

Back in 1991 Joe Pesci starred in a movie called "The Super", in which a slumlord was sentenced to live under house arrest in an apartment in one of his own properties. I'm sure Trump owns a crappy apartment building somewhere.

Last edited by Armitage72; 23rd September 2022 at 07:18 AM.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 07:28 AM   #2885
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It's almost impossible to believe a president could be sentenced to actual prison. I could imagine house arrest in a property controlled by the government, maybe on a military base, or even a facility built for the purpose on prison grounds. But Trump isn't going to genpop.
That, and so many other things written regarding treating trump with kid gloves, are a sad reflection on the current state of American society. The country that once rebelled against the tyranny of kings has effectively adopted a royalty of their own and set them up as above the law that applies to all other citizens. Your country, and your legal system, should be very ashamed of this attitude. I cannot imagine a former Canadian prime minister being treated with such deference after committing a treasonous crime.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 07:28 AM   #2886
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Back in 1991 Joe Pesci starred in a movie called "The Super", in which a slumlord was sentenced to live under house arrest in an apartment in one of his own properties. I'm sure Trump owns a crappy apartment building somewhere.
He should also be forced to eat at his own restaurants. Didn't they have a lot of health violations over the years? Maybe that's why he only eats take-out.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 07:29 AM   #2887
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Back in 1991 Joe Pesci starred in a movie called "The Super", in which a slumlord was sentenced to live under house arrest in an apartment in one of his own properties. I'm sure Trump owns a crappy apartment building somewhere.
Can't we just ship him to Gitmo and get it over with?
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Old 23rd September 2022, 07:53 AM   #2888
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It's almost impossible to believe a president could be sentenced to actual prison. I could imagine house arrest in a property controlled by the government, maybe on a military base, or even a facility built for the purpose on prison grounds. But Trump isn't going to genpop.
I'd vote for home detention on Saint Helena.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 07:57 AM   #2889
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
I'd vote for home detention on Saint Helena.
I'd prefer Mount St. Helens myself.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 07:59 AM   #2890
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Originally Posted by azazal View Post
Can't we just ship him to Gitmo and get it over with?

That or something similar would certainly be preferable. I was just building on the idea that he wouldn't be sent to an actual prison.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 08:10 AM   #2891
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
That, and so many other things written regarding treating trump with kid gloves, are a sad reflection on the current state of American society. The country that once rebelled against the tyranny of kings has effectively adopted a royalty of their own and set them up as above the law that applies to all other citizens. Your country, and your legal system, should be very ashamed of this attitude. I cannot imagine a former Canadian prime minister being treated with such deference after committing a treasonous crime.
Easy to say, but convicting Trump of actual crimes -- proving responsibility and intent for violating specific elements of specific laws -- won't be a slam dunk. He could be prosecuted and acquitted. And close to half the country will always believe he was framed and will look to wreak revenge on anybody they can blame. The ultimate question is what's best for the country, and locking him up might not be it.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 08:14 AM   #2892
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Easy to say, but convicting Trump of actual crimes -- proving responsibility and intent for violating specific elements of specific laws -- won't be a slam dunk. He could be prosecuted and acquitted. And close to half the country will always believe he was framed and will look to wreak revenge on anybody they can blame. The ultimate question is what's best for the country, and locking him up might not be it.
No, not really. If he broke the law, he should be locked up. If he didn't, he shouldn't be. That's the best for the country. And I don't see how the judge could have any other option.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 08:32 AM   #2893
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Easy to say, but convicting Trump of actual crimes -- proving responsibility and intent for violating specific elements of specific laws -- won't be a slam dunk.
Very little is a 'slam dunk'. But I assume any prosecutors will be very careful to ensure any case against him is solid. And from what we have seen, the case against Trump over the possession of classified documents is about as solid as you can get. No issues of "free speech". No need to worry about a paper trail leading to Trump and cooperating witnesses from the Trump side. Its as simple as you can get:
- Are these government documents?
- Were they in your possession?
Case closed.
Quote:
He could be prosecuted and acquitted.
I would say a more likely scenario is a hung jury. Potential trials against Trump are not likely going to occur in deep-red areas of the country (where Trump might get a favorable jury). He MIGHT (just might) get a MAGAchud on the jury, or someone who is easily influenced by Trump, but its unlikely you would get 12 jurors all saying "not guilty". (At least based on the evidence that we have in public).
Quote:
And close to half the country will always believe he was framed and will look to wreak revenge on anybody they can blame.
Which is not really relevant when it comes to laying legal charges.

What only matters is "where in the country is a potential jury pool drawn from".

As for the MAGAchuds "Wrecking revenge"... Those people would likely never be happy, and trying to appease them by giving a free pass to crimes committed by Trump only delays the problem, until something else causes them to "rise up".

Plus, is appeasement really the best option?
Quote:
The ultimate question is what's best for the country, and locking him up might not be it.
"Our political leaders are above the law" is a bad message, and a bad precedent to set.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 08:41 AM   #2894
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Because that's what Donny would do!
Yep, this is the way they work, and think everyone else does, too.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 08:52 AM   #2895
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
No, not really. If he broke the law, he should be locked up. If he didn't, he shouldn't be. That's the best for the country. And I don't see how the judge could have any other option.
The trouble is that there is no evidence, no matter how compelling, which would convince around 40% of the US population. They would find him not guilty regardless of the evidence presented.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 08:55 AM   #2896
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
"Our political leaders are above the law" is a bad message, and a bad precedent to set.
True, but if you're a prominent Republican, it is the case.

Matt Gaetz seems to have evaded trial, much less conviction.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 08:56 AM   #2897
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The trouble is that there is no evidence, no matter how compelling, which would convince around 40% of the US population. They would find him not guilty regardless of the evidence presented.

That's their problem and has nothing to do with Trump's guilt and punishing him for his crimes. The entire country doesn't have to be unanimous for a jury to reach a verdict.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 08:59 AM   #2898
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
That, and so many other things written regarding treating trump with kid gloves, are a sad reflection on the current state of American society. The country that once rebelled against the tyranny of kings has effectively adopted a royalty of their own and set them up as above the law that applies to all other citizens. Your country, and your legal system, should be very ashamed of this attitude. I cannot imagine a former Canadian prime minister being treated with such deference after committing a treasonous crime.
Same in France: Nicolas Sarkozy, former French president, has been sentenced for several offences, and the idea that he could have benefited from a preferential treatment is anathema to most French citizens :

Nicolas Sarkozy

Quote:
….

. In 2021, Sarkozy was convicted of corruption in two separate trials. His first conviction resulted in him receiving a sentence of three years, two of them suspended and one in prison; he has appealed against the ruling. For his second conviction, he received a one-year sentence, which he is allowed to serve under home confinement.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 09:08 AM   #2899
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
That's their problem and has nothing to do with Trump's guilt and punishing him for his crimes. The entire country doesn't have to be unanimous for a jury to reach a verdict.
A jury does though...
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Old 23rd September 2022, 09:21 AM   #2900
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Very little is a 'slam dunk'. But I assume any prosecutors will be very careful to ensure any case against him is solid. And from what we have seen, the case against Trump over the possession of classified documents is about as solid as you can get. No issues of "free speech". No need to worry about a paper trail leading to Trump and cooperating witnesses from the Trump side. Its as simple as you can get:
- Are these government documents?
- Were they in your possession?
Case closed.
Those two questions would establish that he's in violation of the Presidential Records Act, but that law has no consequences (there's no punishment for violation).

You need a bit more for teethier violations, like the Espionage Act.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 09:23 AM   #2901
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The trouble is that there is no evidence, no matter how compelling, which would convince around 40% of the US population. They would find him not guilty regardless of the evidence presented.
I would guess that jury selection might eliminate MAGAs with a predisposition to think T not guilty. Warn candidates that, if they say they could be neutral and they've said otherwise on social media, they could be charged with lying to the court. This would depend on the rules in the jurisdiction involved.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 09:40 AM   #2902
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
No, not really. If he broke the law, he should be locked up. If he didn't, he shouldn't be. That's the best for the country. And I don't see how the judge could have any other option.
If?
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Old 23rd September 2022, 10:02 AM   #2903
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I have a couple questions, related to discussions on other forums:

- Executive Orders have the weight of law, but does that apply to the president? It's been my impression that while a president can at any time issue a new Executive Order revising or revoking any existing Executive Order, until the president does so the president is required to abide by the Executive Order just like everyone else is. (In particular, I'm thinking about Executive Order 13526, which sets the foundation for the current classification system.)

- Are there any legally binding actions that a president can take that can be enforced without there being any written documentation of that action (except, of course, for declassifying Top Secret/SCI documents)? Laws and Executive Orders need to literally be signed by the president before they take effect. Do presidential appointments need to be made in writing? Do presidential pardons need to be made in writing?
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Old 23rd September 2022, 10:24 AM   #2904
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Thing 1: You just gotta love the "they were looking for Hilary's emails" stuff.

So what is he saying - they had reason to think that he had her emails at his place? Why would they think that? Why would he HAVE them in the first place? And if he did have them, why wasn't he sharing them with everyone?

Then again, I almost think there might be something to it. I can believe that he had printouts of the "classified" emails that she had had on her server. He wanted to keep copies of them for personal use. Of course, in doing so, he is in possession of classified material that was actually created before he was even in office, so cannot lay any claim to in any way. So much for the "My administration is going to fully punish anyone who mishandles classified information."

Thing 2: Speaking of mishandling classified information
The Trump lawyers have now asked the DOJ to send a list of all the classified documents that they seized from Mar-a-lago.

Think about that for just a minute. Trump needs the DOJ to tell HIM what classified documents they seized from HIM. As in, he doesn't know what classified documents he had that he no longer has.

How is that for properly handling classified information? He doesn't even know what classified documents he had in his possession!

The DOJ response to Trump's lawyers should be pretty simple: what classified documents did we seize? Ask your client. If he can't tell you what classified documents are missing, then it just proves that he is mishandling classified documents.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 10:28 AM   #2905
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Back in 1991 Joe Pesci starred in a movie called "The Super", in which a slumlord was sentenced to live under house arrest in an apartment in one of his own properties. I'm sure Trump owns a crappy apartment building somewhere.
Trump would've offered his dad a match at the end.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 10:38 AM   #2906
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Easy to say, but convicting Trump of actual crimes -- proving responsibility and intent for violating specific elements of specific laws -- won't be a slam dunk. He could be prosecuted and acquitted.
IMHO, this is the reason that Trump is trying to create doubt over whether the documents are classified: jurors will have an easier time convicting a former president and potential future presidential candidate if they are shown that he possessed vital national secrets that he was (mis)using for his own purposes than if he merely had some routine records from his time as president that he wasn't supposed to keep, and showing that he had classified documents is the best way to show that he possessed vital nation secrets.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 11:22 AM   #2907
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
I have a couple questions, related to discussions on other forums:

- Executive Orders have the weight of law, but does that apply to the president? It's been my impression that while a president can at any time issue a new Executive Order revising or revoking any existing Executive Order, until the president does so the president is required to abide by the Executive Order just like everyone else is. (In particular, I'm thinking about Executive Order 13526, which sets the foundation for the current classification system.)

- Are there any legally binding actions that a president can take that can be enforced without there being any written documentation of that action (except, of course, for declassifying Top Secret/SCI documents)? Laws and Executive Orders need to literally be signed by the president before they take effect. Do presidential appointments need to be made in writing? Do presidential pardons need to be made in writing?
Yes, Yes, Yes. Fleeting thoughts through the transom of the President's mind or verbal drivel frrom the lips of a blithering idiot is an untenable system. Presidential acts/orders carry the weight of law, but there have always been caveats.

The Constitution prohibits ex post facto laws and vague musings are impossible to enforce. POTUS does have wide latitude in declassification but reasonable limits still apply.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 11:59 AM   #2908
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
I'd vote for home detention on Saint Helena.
Kerguelen, much more isolated and much less hospitable. And I'm sure President Macron would love the pleasure of hosting him there.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 12:08 PM   #2909
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Easy to say, but convicting Trump of actual crimes -- proving responsibility and intent for violating specific elements of specific laws -- won't be a slam dunk. He could be prosecuted and acquitted. And close to half the country will always believe he was framed and will look to wreak revenge on anybody they can blame. The ultimate question is what's best for the country, and locking him up might not be it.
By doing that you're declaring Trump and his ilk above the law, which is awful precedent for the country.

If Starr had actually found Clinton had committed crimes, do you think the other side would have hesitated to jail Clinton? No, me neither.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 12:08 PM   #2910
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Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
Kerguelen, much more isolated and much less hospitable. And I'm sure President Macron would love the pleasure of hosting him there.
How about Château d'If?
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Old 23rd September 2022, 12:12 PM   #2911
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Old 23rd September 2022, 12:15 PM   #2912
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
How about Château d'If?
Weather's too nice.

Another alternative, offer him Cromwell's choice.

Last edited by Gulliver Foyle; 23rd September 2022 at 12:17 PM.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 01:39 PM   #2913
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Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
By doing that you're declaring Trump and his ilk above the law, which is awful precedent for the country.

If Starr had actually found Clinton had committed crimes, do you think the other side would have hesitated to jail Clinton? No, me neither.
They would certainly have tried, and it would also have been tremendously destructive and divisive for the country, much more so than Clinton's impeachment, which should never have happened. I'm all for prosecuting as many of Trump's ilk as possible, just as dozens of Nixon's co-conspirators, including the Attorney General, went to prison. But the plain fact is that the President does hold a unique position in our society, and that has to be a consideration. That's why Ford pardoned Nixon, for which he was criticized at the time but which is generally agreed now was the right decision.

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Old 23rd September 2022, 02:12 PM   #2914
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
. . .
Them's the true believers right there.
Frankly, I'm relieved it's only a third.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 02:22 PM   #2915
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
They would certainly have tried, and it would also have been tremendously destructive and divisive for the country, much more so than Clinton's impeachment, which should never have happened. I'm all for prosecuting as many of Trump's ilk as possible, just as dozens of Nixon's co-conspirators, including the Attorney General, went to prison. But the plain fact is that the President does hold a unique position in our society, and that has to be a consideration. That's why Ford pardoned Nixon, for which he was criticized at the time but which is generally agreed now was the right decision.
The President holds a unique position in our society, assuredly, but the question is, does a former President hold a unique legal position in our society? That is, should the law treat a former president differently? Or is the former president now just like a regular citizen in terms of the law? I don't see anything in our traditions, customs, law, constitution, etc., that would suggest that a former president is anything but a citizen, legally.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 02:46 PM   #2916
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
The President holds a unique position in our society, assuredly, but the question is, does a former President hold a unique legal position in our society? That is, should the law treat a former president differently? Or is the former president now just like a regular citizen in terms of the law? I don't see anything in our traditions, customs, law, constitution, etc., that would suggest that a former president is anything but a citizen, legally.
After, what, like six years at least, of hearing "Lock her up!", I'd think the country would be perfectly alright with a former politician being placed behind bars. So what if it's not who they were hoping for.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 03:00 PM   #2917
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Thing 2: Speaking of mishandling classified information
The Trump lawyers have now asked the DOJ to send a list of all the classified documents that they seized from Mar-a-lago.

Think about that for just a minute. Trump needs the DOJ to tell HIM what classified documents they seized from HIM. As in, he doesn't know what classified documents he had that he no longer has.

How is that for properly handling classified information? He doesn't even know what classified documents he had in his possession!

The DOJ response to Trump's lawyers should be pretty simple: what classified documents did we seize? Ask your client. If he can't tell you what classified documents are missing, then it just proves that he is mishandling classified documents.
I'd actually be shocked if Trump or anyone associated with him DID know what they had. They had just thrown it in boxes. Not that that's any excuse. Incompetence was a hallmark of Trump's administration from Day One.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 03:22 PM   #2918
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
. . .
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'd actually be shocked if Trump or anyone associated with him DID know what they had. They had just thrown it in boxes. Not that that's any excuse. Incompetence was a hallmark of Trump's administration from Day One.
Dearie very cleverly put Trump in a box. Anyway he turns, he is either refuting his own statements or committing additional felonies. It makes it very difficult for Trump to keep lying about the DOJ and the FBI. And Dearie gives himself a great defense. I mean Trump keeps suggesting that the documents were planted. Great, let's get your accusations in court where the law can address the issue.
Keep in mind that not everything ended up in a storage room. Classified documents were in his office.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 03:54 PM   #2919
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Judge Cannon ended up screwing Trump. She went ahead and modified her order after getting slapped by the appeals court, which basically removed the chance for Trump to take the issue of the 103 classified documents to SCOTUS. Oops!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...95425458ebe6ee
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Old 23rd September 2022, 04:03 PM   #2920
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
Judge Cannon ended up screwing Trump. She went ahead and modified her order after getting slapped by the appeals court, which basically removed the chance for Trump to take the issue of the 103 classified documents to SCOTUS. Oops!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...95425458ebe6ee
That's good news. Trump wastes too much US public money as it is, and his pathetic flailing about is always best curtailed early.
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