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Old 27th June 2022, 05:27 PM   #41
dudalb
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"Quiet, Private, Prayer"...
If it were not so serious, it would be to make one laugh.
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Old 27th June 2022, 05:39 PM   #42
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As someone who has never really 'got' the apppeal of either the whole ball-team-sports thing*, or religion, I find this whole thing magnificently incomprehensible.

Please continue, the glorious ******* insanity is very entertaining, and better that it is done here, than in politics/government.


*and before anyone says it, yes, I was always amongst the last to be picked at school. And no, I'm not sore about that - I would have much rather not be made to take part at all, but picked last and sidelined was the best I could hope for.
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Old 27th June 2022, 06:01 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Your comments expressed a clear disdain for Christians (as I quoted). And I am not a Trump supporter, not that it would matter.
I do have disdain for Evangelical Christians who keep pushing further and further into governments not just in this country but in many countries. In Uganda they pushed for the death penalty for homosexuals. And there has been the Catholic anti-condom campaign also in Uganda that took AIDS prevention back into the days of ignorance. The new Pope has lightened up a bit on that last one.

Then there is the disdain I feel towards the Catholic and now the Southern Baptist churches who covered up pedophilia among their ranks for decades.

Beyond that, no I do not include all Christians in those sentiments. I try to be very specific as to why I have issues with any religion.

It is Christian fundies that overturned Roe and want to dismantle separation of church and state starting in public schools.

So don't tell me I simply have disdain for Christians.

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Old 27th June 2022, 06:45 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I bet if it had been the same, you wouldn't be hearing the same uproar from the current group expressing their discontent.
Wanna bet? As an atheist, for ANY religion to be promoted at a school function...and that's what it is...is anathema to me. I sat through the morning prayer invoking God in my public school in TN as a child. My sister was told she was going to hell by the son of my dad's navigator who was in her class because she didn't bow her head during said school prayer. So don't give me this crap. Say all the prayers you want but they doesn't belong at a public school football game.
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Old 27th June 2022, 06:52 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Wanna bet? As an atheist, for ANY religion to be promoted at a school function...and that's what it is...is anathema to me. I sat through the morning prayer invoking God in my public school in TN as a child. My sister was told she was going to hell by the son of my dad's navigator who was in her class because she didn't bow her head during said school prayer. So don't give me this crap. Say all the prayers you want but they doesn't belong at a public school football game.

I don't believe it was a public prayer. Let's put it this way...the scotus has ruled in favor of my position, already. So I feel pretty solid about where I stand on the matter.

And yes, the comments about Christians are only serving to confirm my suspicions about the prejudice some may have towards them. And I do feel that has an impact on the level of outrage expressed.
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Old 27th June 2022, 07:49 PM   #46
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I go to Friday night games pretty often. After every game, the players and coaches gather in the center of the field and all say a prayer together. Before each game there is a prayer for player safety.

I just can’t get too worked up about this. I don’t think anyone sees this kind of thing as “the school imposing religion,” but more as an expression of the community that happens to take place at a school function. Players participate if they want to. Many do not and chat with friends.

We’ve got bigger fish to fry, my friends
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Old 27th June 2022, 08:09 PM   #47
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It is hard to keep up.
Taking a knee was a sign of respect, then taking a knee became outrageously disrespectful, and now it is respectful again.

In fact during the disrespectful period, I remember the vice president flying across the country simply to show how very, very offended he was over such disrespect. Then he flew back.
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Old 27th June 2022, 08:18 PM   #48
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What bothers me is the idiots who have to point to the sky and thank Jesus every time they score a touchdown. I'm sure that if there's a deity in this universe, it has more pressing matters to deal with than somebody scoring a ******* touchdown.
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Old 27th June 2022, 09:09 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I bet if it had been the same, you wouldn't be hearing the same uproar from the current group expressing their discontent.
Maybe, but so what? What's more important is that there is an articulable, reasoned argument why it's worth being in an uproar when Christians, Muslims or any religion does the same, so who cares what some group of people express an uproar about or not?

If you are interested in hearing what that articulable, reasoned argument is, and why it should cause an uproar, just let me know. But I'm beginning to wonder if you're even interested in that.
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Old 27th June 2022, 09:35 PM   #50
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The most outrageous thing about this case is that the facts presented to the SC are, factually, a bunch of lies. They are so fake that it's bizarre that the SC picked it up, a total scandal.

That's because only the made-up story is something that furthers the right-wing activism of the Court - the facts are completely unambiguous.
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Old 28th June 2022, 12:34 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don't believe it was a public prayer. Let's put it this way...the scotus has ruled in favor of my position, already. So I feel pretty solid about where I stand on the matter.

Yeah, it wasn't a public prayer. Damn lying eyes!




Quote:
And yes, the comments about Christians are only serving to confirm my suspicions about the prejudice some may have towards them. And I do feel that has an impact on the level of outrage expressed.
Long suffering Christian victims in America...when will it ever end?
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Old 28th June 2022, 12:57 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Yeah, it wasn't a public prayer. Damn lying eyes!

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...aaecac4ae5.jpg




Long suffering Christian victims in America...when will it ever end?

Not a public prayer, meaning, not a prayer event extending to the spectators such as a church religious function. This sort of group/team gathering/prayer is no big deal and quite common IRL. But you know this. Everyone knows this unless they live a very sheltered existence.

It's fine that you disagree, though. But the court went against your viewpoint. Fortunately.

And once again we see the negativity towards "long suffering Christian victims". Seems as though persecution of religious groups is frowned upon...unless it is Christians. I never used to believe such claims, but it seems to be increasingly clear that there is a lot of truth to them.
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Old 28th June 2022, 01:02 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Not a public prayer, meaning, not a prayer event extending to the spectators such as a church religious function. This sort of group/team gathering/prayer is no big deal and quite common IRL. But you know this. Everyone knows this unless they live a very sheltered existence.

It's fine that you disagree, though. But the court went against your viewpoint. Fortunately.

And once again we see the negativity towards "long suffering Christian victims". As though persecution of religious groups is frowned upon...unless it is Christians.
Thankfully this sort of crap will not occur on an Australian sporting field. Another reason to laugh at US Christians.
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Old 28th June 2022, 01:37 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Not a public prayer, meaning, not a prayer event extending to the spectators such as a church religious function. This sort of group/team gathering/prayer is no big deal and quite common IRL. But you know this. Everyone knows this unless they live a very sheltered existence.
You can try and slice, dice, splice and spin it any which way you want but it was a public prayer on school property, during an official school event led by a school authority figure. Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.

Quote:
I’ve known Kennedy for a long time; we worked together in the local shipyard for nearly 15 years, and he coached my son for a season. We were friendly, and I respected his work with kids in the football program.


But he crossed a line when he started praying with students — with other people’s children.

Teenagers see coaches as authority figures who determine playing time and influence how well they interact with the rest of their teammates, their friends. When Kennedy met with the entire team on the field immediately following games, with the community watching, it would have been incredibly hard for a teenager, any teenager, to refuse to participate, even if Kennedy’s prayers conflicted with the student’s personal religious beliefs. I feel for any kids, especially religious minorities or nonreligious kids, who participated because they thought it was the only way to be a good teammate, to impress their coach and to be included as part of the team.
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
It's fine that you disagree, though. But the court went against your viewpoint. Fortunately.
I have a problem when SC Justices base their legal decisions on their religious ideologies. But I guess 'judicial activism' is OK as long as it's not the "liberal activist' judges doing it.


Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
And once again we see the negativity towards "long suffering Christian victims". Seems as though persecution of religious groups is frowned upon...unless it is Christians. I never used to believe such claims, but it seems to be increasingly clear that there is a lot of truth to them.
"Persecution"? Perfect. Only someone with a victimhood mentality would consider criticism of a SC ruling based on religious ideology persecution of a religious group. But thanks for proving my point.

As to the highlighted part:


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Old 28th June 2022, 02:19 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Not a public prayer, meaning, not a prayer event extending to the spectators such as a church religious function. This sort of group/team gathering/prayer is no big deal and quite common IRL. But you know this. Everyone knows this unless they live a very sheltered existence.

It's fine that you disagree, though. But the court went against your viewpoint. Fortunately.

And once again we see the negativity towards "long suffering Christian victims". Seems as though persecution of religious groups is frowned upon...unless it is Christians. I never used to believe such claims, but it seems to be increasingly clear that there is a lot of truth to them.
so you think that the Court would have 100% come to the same result if it had been a Muslim prayer? Or Hindi?
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Old 28th June 2022, 02:28 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
so you think that the Court would have 100% come to the same result if it had been a Muslim prayer? Or Hindi?

Very likely, yes. I see no reason to believe otherwise, if it were the same circumstance.

Do you think liberals would have been as upset about the resulting decision? Or would they have been squealing about the unfair persecution of those groups the whole time, leading up?
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Old 28th June 2022, 02:31 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don't believe it was a public prayer. Let's put it this way...the scotus has ruled in favor of my position, already. So I feel pretty solid about where I stand on the matter.

And yes, the comments about Christians are only serving to confirm my suspicions about the prejudice some may have towards them. And I do feel that has an impact on the level of outrage expressed.


On the 50 yard line at the end of the game while fans and students were still there, and you don't think that was a public prayer because 6 Evangelicals on the SC said it wasn't?
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Old 28th June 2022, 02:34 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


On the 50 yard line at the end of the game while fans and students were still there, and you don't think that was a public prayer because 6 Evangelicals on the SC said it wasn't?

As previously stated:

Originally Posted by Warp12
Not a public prayer, meaning, not a prayer event extending to the spectators such as a church religious function. This sort of group/team gathering/prayer is no big deal and quite common IRL. But you know this. Everyone knows this unless they live a very sheltered existence.
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Old 28th June 2022, 02:34 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Very likely, yes. I see no reason to believe otherwise, if it were the same circumstance.

Do you think liberals would have been as upset about it? Or would they have been squealing about the unfair persecution of those groups?
Already answered but....

I don't give a rat's ass if the coach was leading a Jewish, Mormon, Buddhist, Confucian, Musim or Church of Lesser Saints prayer on the football field; I feel the exact same way. It doesn't belong.
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Old 28th June 2022, 02:35 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I go to Friday night games pretty often. After every game, the players and coaches gather in the center of the field and all say a prayer together. Before each game there is a prayer for player safety.

I just can’t get too worked up about this. I don’t think anyone sees this kind of thing as “the school imposing religion,” but more as an expression of the community that happens to take place at a school function. Players participate if they want to. Many do not and chat with friends.

We’ve got bigger fish to fry, my friends
You're in TX. This happened in WA and we're a little more sensitive about this. Can you guarantee the student athletes don't feel any pressure to join in?

There is simply no reason to proselytize in public school or at school events. Brainwash kids on your[their] own time.
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Old 28th June 2022, 02:37 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
As previously stated:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp12
Not a public prayer, meaning, not a prayer event extending to the spectators such as a church religious function. This sort of group/team gathering/prayer is no big deal and quite common IRL. But you know this. Everyone knows this unless they live a very sheltered existence.


As previously stated:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You can try and slice, dice, splice and spin it any which way you want but it was a public prayer on school property, during an official school event led by a school authority figure. Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.
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Old 28th June 2022, 02:43 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You're in TX. This happened in WA and we're a little more sensitive about this. Can you guarantee the student athletes don't feel any pressure to join in?

There is simply no reason to proselytize in public school or at school events. Brainwash kids on your[their] own time.


Wait...isn't it the Republicans who are so worried about our kids being brainwashed in school that they've banning CRT and passing "don't say gay' laws?
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Old 28th June 2022, 02:44 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Very likely, yes. I see no reason to believe otherwise, if it were the same circumstance.
then you are deluded.


Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Do you think liberals would have been as upset about the resulting decision? Or would they have been squealing about the unfair persecution of those groups the whole time, leading up?
contrary to your biases, most Liberals know that the church-state separation is there to protect ALL religions.

But this SC has spelled out in detail that not privileging Christianity is the same as discriminating against it.
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Old 28th June 2022, 06:02 AM   #64
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This seems to work out as long as the prayer is one of those "let's all be safe. . .treat each other well. . .bless the food" prayers which most religions wouldn't have any problem with.

But, I'd take objection to bowing my head in prayer, out of courtesy, only to find out that the prayer intones a religious belief I abhor.

Thankfully most folks have enough sense to say an inoffensive prayer.
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Old 28th June 2022, 06:32 AM   #65
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Even as their promised theocracy is established, it seems Christians are still somehow the victims of oppression.
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Old 28th June 2022, 06:38 AM   #66
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Nothing against Prayer - but don't have taxpayers pay for it.
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Old 28th June 2022, 06:39 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Not a public prayer, meaning, not a prayer event extending to the spectators such as a church religious function. This sort of group/team gathering/prayer is no big deal and quite common IRL. But you know this. Everyone knows this unless they live a very sheltered existence.
If it was public prayer, in the sense of praying wherever with whomever when not acting as a state employee in front of public school students, there would be no problem with it. This was not that.

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
And once again we see the negativity towards "long suffering Christian victims". Seems as though persecution of religious groups is frowned upon...unless it is Christians. I never used to believe such claims, but it seems to be increasingly clear that there is a lot of truth to them.
There is no Christian persecution in the USA. It's a persecution complex which happens to be at least partly a religiously inspired delusion (they long for the end days, when they can look down upon non believers being cast into hell and suffering, and persecution of Christians is supposed to be one of the signs indicating that this is about to happen).
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Old 28th June 2022, 07:05 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Yeah, it wasn't a public prayer. Damn lying eyes!

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...aaecac4ae5.jpg
This was the part I was wondering about. The bleachers seem pretty empty. Like, a half dozen people left there. So was this a public spectacle, or more of a borderline private thing? I mean, if it was at the start of the game in front of a packed stadium, it would have been showier, but it kind of looks like they were keeping it low key among themselves.
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Old 28th June 2022, 07:11 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Yeah, it wasn't a public prayer. Damn lying eyes!

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...aaecac4ae5.jpg




Long suffering Christian victims in America...when will it ever end?
This was the part I was wondering about. The bleachers seem pretty empty. Like, a half dozen people left there. So was this a public spectacle, or more of a borderline private thing? I mean, if it was at the start of the game in front of a packed stadium, it would have been showier, but it kind of looks like they were keeping it low key among themselves.
Those are not students and that's not a teacher and that's not school property?
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Old 28th June 2022, 07:14 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This was the part I was wondering about. The bleachers seem pretty empty. Like, a half dozen people left there. So was this a public spectacle, or more of a borderline private thing? I mean, if it was at the start of the game in front of a packed stadium, it would have been showier, but it kind of looks like they were keeping it low key among themselves.
The problem isn't whether the prayer was done in a closed, locked room or done - literally, for once! - on the 50-yard line, or whether anyone witnessed the prayer.

The problem is that the government - as represented by a government employee while on the clock (even though the game had finished, the coach's duties had not ended) - is promoting religion. The government must remain neutral - out of the religion game one way or the other. It would have been just as bad if the coach had gone to the 50-yard line and condemned religion.
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Old 28th June 2022, 07:17 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This was the part I was wondering about. The bleachers seem pretty empty. Like, a half dozen people left there. So was this a public spectacle, or more of a borderline private thing? I mean, if it was at the start of the game in front of a packed stadium, it would have been showier, but it kind of looks like they were keeping it low key among themselves.
If your local HS isn't a powerhouse, the stands aren't going to be packed during the game. I've attended HS games with barely more than that half dozen during the game.

That said, it's at the 50 yard line of a public school, under the lights, in front of members of the public still in the stands, and providing peer-pressure to the athletes themselves to participate or risk harm to their football career and/or grades. That's a clear cut case of state resources being used to compell religious exercise in public.
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Old 28th June 2022, 07:30 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This was the part I was wondering about. The bleachers seem pretty empty. Like, a half dozen people left there. So was this a public spectacle, or more of a borderline private thing? I mean, if it was at the start of the game in front of a packed stadium, it would have been showier, but it kind of looks like they were keeping it low key among themselves.
You don't think those student athletes count as part of the public? That's like saying a teacher leading a prayer at the end of class is doing it in private. The other students and athletes know full well the others are praying with the teacher or coach. They are still being influenced.
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Old 28th June 2022, 07:33 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You don't think those student athletes count as part of the public? That's like saying a teacher leading a prayer at the end of class is doing it in private. The other students and athletes know full well the others are praying with the teacher of coach. They are still being influenced.
In some sense, the rest of the public is actually irrelevant. I have no idea why Warpie focused on that when that has never been what decisions like Engel vs. Vitale have been about.
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Old 28th June 2022, 07:47 AM   #74
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Old 28th June 2022, 07:59 AM   #75
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Ok, hang on. Is the school somehow paying for this? I got the impression that the coach was doing this with the full willing participation of the team. Is this not so?

Separation of church and state in no way shape or form means that teams or clubs cannot do things like this. It means the school can't favor one, or compel one, or step on religious freedoms .

You guys do remember those pesky religious freedoms, right? They work both ways.

Eta: yeah, just reread the story. The coach originally walked out to the 50 yard line after a game and had himself a little private prayer. Team members began joining him on their own. I think the courts got this one right, as odd as it feels to some. Separation of church and State does not mean banning private religious expression. That's actually a separate constitutional violation.
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Old 28th June 2022, 08:24 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Ok, hang on. Is the school somehow paying for this? I got the impression that the coach was doing this with the full willing participation of the team. Is this not so?

Separation of church and state in no way shape or form means that teams or clubs cannot do things like this. It means the school can't favor one, or compel one, or step on religious freedoms .

You guys do remember those pesky religious freedoms, right? They work both ways.

Eta: yeah, just reread the story. The coach originally walked out to the 50 yard line after a game and had himself a little private prayer. Team members began joining him on their own. I think the courts got this one right, as odd as it feels to some. Separation of church and State does not mean banning private religious expression. That's actually a separate constitutional violation.
The school is paying for this as in the school is paying for his salary, he is using his salaried position to do this. This isn't a case of just some guy walking out to the 50 yardline and praying, this is the coach.

And if you are unable to understand the influence a coach has on his athletes....nah, this has to be an act.
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Old 28th June 2022, 08:32 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Ok, hang on. Is the school somehow paying for this? I got the impression that the coach was doing this with the full willing participation of the team. Is this not so?

Separation of church and state in no way shape or form means that teams or clubs cannot do things like this. It means the school can't favor one, or compel one, or step on religious freedoms .

You guys do remember those pesky religious freedoms, right? They work both ways.

Eta: yeah, just reread the story. The coach originally walked out to the 50 yard line after a game and had himself a little private prayer. Team members began joining him on their own. I think the courts got this one right, as odd as it feels to some. Separation of church and State does not mean banning private religious expression. That's actually a separate constitutional violation.
Coach is free to build his own football field if he wants a place to hold religious ceremonies.
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Old 28th June 2022, 08:33 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
You are missing the point. Clearly this isn't just about the law for some folks. They just can't stand Christians Krazy Koolaid Kristianites (KKK). Just read the rhetoric that I quoted.
FTFY.
We support a local priest who opens his church to the poor. Assuming it were honest, would support the Salvation Army if it were here, too. OTOH, I'd punch out any Van Gelical preaching "White Geezus gonna getcha" crap wherever he stands and sheds, yes. Just for kicks, yes. In that you are 100% correct, total disdain for the gospel of neck stomping hicks. And for just plain hicks, for that matter, whether they be rural Iranians, Turks or Americans hankering after a return to tradition, that tradition invariably translating into male tyranny wrapped in holy garments.


ETA: Decision is clear violation of the institutional separation of church and state. School prayer is a no-no, and suffering KKKers have Sunday school for that, so no whining.
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Old 28th June 2022, 08:36 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
The school is paying for this as in the school is paying for his salary, he is using his salaried position to do this. This isn't a case of just some guy walking out to the 50 yardline and praying, this is the coach.

And if you are unable to understand the influence a coach has on his athletes....nah, this has to be an act.
Have you ever been in a similar situation? I have. I attended a Catholic high school for most of my freshman year. We had Jewish guys on our offensive line, myself and a few other agnostic protestants as ends and receivers. Guess how many of us turned catholic under the influence of the priestly coaching staff. Go on, guess.
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Old 28th June 2022, 08:39 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Coach is free to build his own football field if he wants a place to hold religious ceremonies.
Is this a vote for "**** you and your religious freedoms" too? Man, not a lot of constitutional fans here.

Separation of C&S =/= quelling voluntary religious expression.
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