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Old 28th June 2022, 08:48 AM   #81
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Is this a vote for "**** you and your religious freedoms" too? Man, not a lot of constitutional fans here.

Separation of C&S =/= quelling voluntary religious expression.
So how would you make sure that every ... Single ... Religion gets equal access to praying on the field?

Or wouldn't it be better if just none got to pray?
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Old 28th June 2022, 08:48 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
The school is paying for this as in the school is paying for his salary, he is using his salaried position to do this. This isn't a case of just some guy walking out to the 50 yardline and praying, this is the coach.

And if you are unable to understand the influence a coach has on his athletes....nah, this has to be an act.
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Coach is free to build his own football field if he wants a place to hold religious ceremonies.
Just some guy likely wouldn't have been able to do that. The coach could, so he's using his position and access to state facilities to amplify his religious beliefs. The very public manner in a heavily Christian cult area adds to the coercion by making retribution by the public a concern as well.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Have you ever been in a similar situation? I have. I attended a Catholic high school for most of my freshman year. We had Jewish guys on our offensive line, myself and a few other agnostic protestants as ends and receivers. Guess how many of us turned catholic under the influence of the priestly coaching staff. Go on, guess.
Survivor bias is pretty weak generally, and really feeble here.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Is this a vote for "**** you and your religious freedoms" too? Man, not a lot of constitutional fans here.

Separation of C&S =/= quelling voluntary religious expression.
Using state resources and position of authority to coerce religious expression is not 'voluntary' in anything but the narrative of the Christian extremists.

Should a coach be able to date a cheerleader? An eighteen year old cheerleader, 'voluntarily' decides to start dating a coach. Maybe even her coach. Why would this be a problem? Answering this question provides the same answers to why this coach's actions were not just his own religious expression.
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Old 28th June 2022, 08:49 AM   #83
wareyin
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Have you ever been in a similar situation? I have. I attended a Catholic high school for most of my freshman year. We had Jewish guys on our offensive line, myself and a few other agnostic protestants as ends and receivers. Guess how many of us turned catholic under the influence of the priestly coaching staff. Go on, guess.
Thank you, Mr. Resident Contrarian. Your performance was...predictable, tedious, and unconvincing, but thanks for making the effort.


Yeah, attending a private Catholic school for less than one school year totally proves your point that public school teachers proselytizing on public school grounds, using public school resources to do so and on the public's dime is fine.
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Old 28th June 2022, 08:57 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
So how would you make sure that every ... Single ... Religion gets equal access to praying on the field?

Or wouldn't it be better if just none got to pray?
I don't understand the dilemma you pose. Just...let them have at it. If some Jewish guys want to read from the Torah, they can do so. Muslims want to bow to Mecca? Make sure they have room to lay out their mats on a clean surface. What's the problem? Are student athletes from different religions clamoring for space rights?

And no, it wouldn't be better for the state to be stamping on religious freedom of expression. It's kind of the whole issue here?
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Old 28th June 2022, 09:01 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Thank you, Mr. Resident Contrarian. Your performance was...predictable, tedious, and unconvincing, but thanks for making the effort.


Yeah, attending a private Catholic school for less than one school year totally proves your point that public school teachers proselytizing on public school grounds, using public school resources to do so and on the public's dime is fine.
And yet again, your dishonest response betrays you.

You claim some kind of powerful influence a coach has over its players, and expect everyone to take that claim as a given. I, and probably everyone else that has had a team coach, knows that to be an old wives tale.
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Old 28th June 2022, 09:06 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I don't understand the dilemma you pose. Just...let them have at it. If some Jewish guys want to read from the Torah, they can do so. Muslims want to bow to Mecca? Make sure they have room to lay out their mats on a clean surface. What's the problem? Are student athletes from different religions clamoring for space rights?

And no, it wouldn't be better for the state to be stamping on religious freedom of expression. It's kind of the whole issue here?
No one was stamping on his religious freedom. He was as free to pray at a church, or in his home, on his own time.

Should a public History teacher be free to pray in front of the class? To 'not lead' prayer for the students present?
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Old 28th June 2022, 09:13 AM   #87
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Sample prayer:

Coach: "Let us all pray that John stops farting on the team bus, and Rico's ankle heals up in time for state finals."


Responses:

Peanut Gallery: "You Christian POS, stop influencing the children!"

Supreme Court Majority: "We side with you, coach."


I really think this situation is being mischaracterized as some sort of state-sponsored forced indoctrination. Which it isn't.
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Old 28th June 2022, 09:14 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
No one was stamping on his religious freedom. He was as free to pray at a church, or in his home, on his own time.

Should a public History teacher be free to pray in front of the class? To 'not lead' prayer for the students present?
Ah but you see, religious freedom means being free to force your beliefs onto your students.
After all, if you're not free to tell others what to do, then you're oppressed in US christian view.
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Old 28th June 2022, 09:15 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Survivor bias is pretty weak generally, and really feeble here.


Quote:
Using state resources...
Is he a salaried coach, or hourly? If he is salaried, it doesn't matter if he has his little prayer after a game or not. The state resources expended are exactly the same whether he does so or not. Weak T, man.

Quote:
...and position of authority to coerce religious expression...
Prove the coersion. No waffling or otherwise changing the subject: prove your claim. Show one athlete coerced into this voluntary joining, or being in any way ostricized for not joining. Put up or shut up.

Quote:
... is not 'voluntary' in anything but the narrative of the Christian extremists.
Then show your evidence of coersion of these young men by this coach. We are not talking about their family upbringing or the wider local cultural climate. Just coachy boy.

Quote:
Should a coach be able to date a cheerleader? An eighteen year old cheerleader, 'voluntarily' decides to start dating a coach. Maybe even her coach. Why would this be a problem? Answering this question provides the same answers to why this coach's actions were not just his own religious expression.
You've claimed you have had coaches in your high school days, haven't you? Did you ape their every behavior, or respect them as your team leader in that context and little more?

Please, tell me all about how you fawned helplessly and mindlessly all over your coaches.
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Old 28th June 2022, 09:17 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Is this a vote for "**** you and your religious freedoms" too? Man, not a lot of constitutional fans here.

Separation of C&S =/= quelling voluntary religious expression.
This is not voluntary religious expression.
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Old 28th June 2022, 09:20 AM   #91
Thermal
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
No one was stamping on his religious freedom. He was as free to pray at a church, or in his home, on his own time.

Should a public History teacher be free to pray in front of the class? To 'not lead' prayer for the students present?
I get the point made by you and others here. I really do. But it does not apply to this particular case.

A teacher in front of the class is a captive audience "during the game". This coach originally went to the 50 yard line after the game for a moment of quiet prayer. Players, evidently already of a similar faith, began to join him. That's not comparable.

Had the coach instructed the players to huddle up and pray before the game, or if they wanted to play, I'd be 100% with you. But looking at this one, it's a little more on the fringe.
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Old 28th June 2022, 09:22 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
This is not voluntary religious expression.
Show the coersion, then. Quote it from the article. Let's go.
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Old 28th June 2022, 09:26 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And yet again, your dishonest response betrays you.

You claim some kind of powerful influence a coach has over its players, and expect everyone to take that claim as a given. I, and probably everyone else that has had a team coach, knows that to be an old wives tale.
Your dishonesty is pretty stunning here, so points on a 15 out of 10 level for that. I claimed that a football coach influences the actions of his team. You, with your part of a freshman year of experience, claim a coach has no influence. And you expect people to believe you?

Let's unpack a bit of your mendacious swithceroos, shall we? First, you use the apparent fact that you're agnostic as evidence that student athletes don't feel pressured to join in a public religious performance. #1, even taking at face value that you really are agnostic or were on the team (given your history, even that's risky to accept, Mr. "Elite level runner who just chose not to compete"), that says nothing about whether or not you participated in any Catholic performances, or were socially pressured to do so. #2 even if you didn't participate or feel pressured to do so, that says nothing about whether others on the team did. #3 as a freshman, you weren't even a starter, so whether or not you participated in a coachled religious ceremony wouldn't affect your playing time the way it would for the actual players. #4 you haven't even said whether or not your Catholic school coach led on field public prayers to begin with, or whether players either participated or were even allowed to not participate.

And all that is just one, tiny aspect of your act.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I don't understand the dilemma you pose. Just...let them have at it. If some Jewish guys want to read from the Torah, they can do so. Muslims want to bow to Mecca? Make sure they have room to lay out their mats on a clean surface. What's the problem? Are student athletes from different religions clamoring for space rights?

And no, it wouldn't be better for the state to be stamping on religious freedom of expression. It's kind of the whole issue here?
Speaking of dishonest responses, we aren't talking about student athletes leading prayers. You know that, so why lie?
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Old 28th June 2022, 09:31 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I get the point made by you and others here. I really do. But it does not apply to this particular case.

A teacher in front of the class is a captive audience "during the game". This coach originally went to the 50 yard line after the game for a moment of quiet prayer. Players, evidently already of a similar faith, began to join him. That's not comparable.

Had the coach instructed the players to huddle up and pray before the game, or if they wanted to play, I'd be 100% with you. But looking at this one, it's a little more on the fringe.
Were any of these students feel 'compelled' to pray, out of fear they would be ostracized or the like?

Why the 50 yard line? Why not somewhere quiet, and unobtrusive? Why did he choose to so very publicly pray on school property while in his capacity as a school coach and authority figure?
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Old 28th June 2022, 09:32 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Show the coersion, then. Quote it from the article. Let's go.
It's a teacher telling his students what to do. That is an inherently unequal power situation and thus coercion.
That's how high schools work.

Sure, there might be the occasional strong-willed student willing to take the heat by disagreeing with his coach and taking the risk of being expelled from the team, but most students will go along.

So the onus is on YOU to show that the coach made completely and absolutely clear that this was his personal wish and that no student needed to go along and that there would be absolutely zero retaliation.
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Old 28th June 2022, 09:34 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You claim it isn't coercion because it didn't work on you. This is textbook survivor bias. Duh.

Quote:
Is he a salaried coach, or hourly? If he is salaried, it doesn't matter if he has his little prayer after a game or not. The state resources expended are exactly the same whether he does so or not. Weak T, man.
I even quoted TragicMonkey pointing out the use of the stadium and you come back with this? His position also has state power whether hourly or salaried.

Quote:
Prove the coersion. No waffling or otherwise changing the subject: prove your claim. Show one athlete coerced into this voluntary joining, or being in any way ostricized for not joining. Put up or shut up.
Wrong goalpost, the attempt at coercion is enough. However, the school's investigation found students did in fact feel pressured, so there was not just attempted but successful coercion. You could try to familiarize yourself with the case besides the one CNN article even if it was just to click the links in it.

I put up, you won't shut up I'm betting.


Quote:
Then show your evidence of coersion of these young men by this coach. We are not talking about their family upbringing or the wider local cultural climate. Just coachy boy.

Using local religious extremists wouldn't count? Naw, that's just an end-around.


Quote:
You've claimed you have had coaches in your high school days, haven't you? Did you ape their every behavior, or respect them as your team leader in that context and little more?

Please, tell me all about how you fawned helplessly and mindlessly all over your coaches.
Abject drivel. You are really hung up on personal anecdotes that much? I was in fact coerced into participating in prayer by coaches until I decided I had had enough and was ostracized for it and other reasons. The outcome need not be 'fawning helplessly and mindlessly' to be a problem. Again, duh.

Your anecdotes aren't special.
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Old 28th June 2022, 09:37 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I bet if it had been the same, you wouldn't be hearing the same uproar from the current group expressing their discontent.
I think you are well aware that the above is absolutely a lie
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Old 28th June 2022, 09:40 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
I think you are well aware that the above is absolutely a lie

I don't believe that for one second. First, nearly every liberal would have made a big stink about the persecution of Muslims and stereotypes. Then they would have proclaimed, "Had this been a Christian, nobody would have said a word!".

But I'm sure you think the above is a real stretch.
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Old 28th June 2022, 09:43 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don't believe that for one second. First, nearly every liberal would have made a big stink about the persecution of Muslims and stereotypes. Then they would have proclaimed, "Had this been a Christian, nobody would have said a word!".

But I'm sure you think the above is a real stretch.
No, it's not a real stretch. Your claim is bull ****.
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Old 28th June 2022, 09:43 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don't believe that for one second. First, nearly every liberal would have made a big stink about the persecution of Muslims and stereotypes. Then they would have proclaimed, "Had this been a Christian, nobody would have said a word!".

But I'm sure you think the above is a real stretch.
I can't speak for others, but I would. If I discovered a teacher was a member of the Taliban and made students pray 'just for luck' I would also hope that got banned.

But it seems in the US the christian Taliban now controls the supreme court, so be prepared to show you are a good little believer soon.
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Old 28th June 2022, 09:53 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
You claim it isn't coercion because it didn't work on you. This is textbook survivor bias. Duh.
Even worse. "It didn't work" doesn't mean their wasn't coercion.

If I offer you $50 to mow my lawn and you turn it down, you can't say I didn't try to get you to mow my lawn just because $50 wasn't enouigh.
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Old 28th June 2022, 09:55 AM   #102
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I'm not sure why this has to be so complicated. Can't an employer tell an employee not to promote personal interests on company time in company facilities? Will we see Walmart clerks organizing prayer circles in the aisles on Saturday afternoons? His employer told him to cut it out and he refused. For most of us in most circumstances, that would be the end of it
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Old 28th June 2022, 10:07 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Have you ever been in a similar situation? I have. I attended a Catholic high school for most of my freshman year. We had Jewish guys on our offensive line, myself and a few other agnostic protestants as ends and receivers. Guess how many of us turned catholic under the influence of the priestly coaching staff. Go on, guess.
  1. Is there a time limit on a coach’s influence?
  2. Did you track those athletes for any conversions for the full length of that time limit?
  3. How did you measure any influence the coach might have had in terms of religion short of a full conversion (doubt, concern, etc)?
  4. Is you experience a big enough sample?
  5. How many student athletes influenced religiously by a coach would be not a cause for concern?
C’mon.
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Old 28th June 2022, 10:20 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don't believe that for one second. First, nearly every liberal would have made a big stink about the persecution of Muslims and stereotypes. Then they would have proclaimed, "Had this been a Christian, nobody would have said a word!".

But I'm sure you think the above is a real stretch.
No, it's horse ****.
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Old 28th June 2022, 10:21 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
  1. Is there a time limit on a coach’s influence?
  2. Did you track those athletes for any conversions for the full length of that time limit?
  3. How did you measure any influence the coach might have had in terms of religion short of a full conversion (doubt, concern, etc)?
  4. Is you experience a big enough sample?
  5. How many student athletes influenced religiously by a coach would be not a cause for concern?
C’mon.
Also, Thermal is conveniently glossing over being coerced into participating in a religious performance when you don't believe in it as just perfectly fine as long as it doesn't cause a full conversion. Apparently so much coercion that a student fully converts might(?) would(?) may be(?) bad, but enough coercion to perform rituals you don't believe in or agree with is just peachy if you continue to not believe in them...
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Old 28th June 2022, 10:32 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And yet again, your dishonest response betrays you.

You claim some kind of powerful influence a coach has over its players, and expect everyone to take that claim as a given. I, and probably everyone else that has had a team coach, knows that to be an old wives tale.
This is VERY basic:

The State, in this case the school, has to treat all religions the same. So if they give him the platform to pray, they have to give it to every religion, which is not feasible.

But this is not the important bit: there are a number of testimonies of students who were afraid to not pray with him (both in the Locker room and the field) for fear of repercussions.
The guy used his authority to proselytize, and demanded that the school give him the space, access to students and salary to do so.
This is as flagrant a violation of the constitution as you get, and every single Court agreed with that.
But not this activist SC.
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Old 28th June 2022, 10:33 AM   #107
arayder
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Christians have a right to preach what they beleive in, like any any other American, but they have NO right to force other people to listen to them.
And that si the problem, too many Xtians think they should have the right to compell people to listen to their sermons.
In other words, they have the right to stand on their soapboxes and preach their nonsense, but they have NO right to compel passerbys to stop and listen. Too many Christians think they do.
Like I say. . .prayers about loving one another or thanking a deity that the football game didn't result in any players on either team getting their neck broken don't raise hackles.

But as soon as the coach starts proselytizing about Jesus he's crossed the line, IMHO.

Last edited by arayder; 28th June 2022 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 28th June 2022, 10:48 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Like I say. . .prayers about loving one another or thanking a deity that the football game didn't result in any players on either team getting their neck broken don't raise hackles.

But as soon as the coach starts proselytizing about Jesus he's crossed the line, IMHO.
Why don't we just keep everyone's private beliefs out of public schools, rather than arguing over them individually.

If you're a high school teacher or coach, you've been given a platform to influence your students, and hence a responsibility. Leading them in a prayer they are not comfortable with coerces them whether you mean to or not.

I'm choosing to believe that this coach had nothing but the best of intentions, he no doubt thought he was doing a good thing for his team. But if one kid thinks he is going to be ostracized, or even worse, retaliated against, for nor participating, then this is obviously not benign.

Just keep it out of school.
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Old 28th June 2022, 10:51 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Your dishonesty is pretty stunning here, so points on a 15 out of 10 level for that. I claimed that a football coach influences the actions of his team. You, with your part of a freshman year of experience, claim a coach has no influence. And you expect people to believe you?
Not what was said. You try to rewrite the posts yet again.

Quote:
Let's unpack a bit of your mendacious swithceroos, shall we? First, you use the apparent fact that you're agnostic as evidence that student athletes don't feel pressured to join in a public religious performance. #1, even taking at face value that you really are agnostic or were on the team (given your history, even that's risky to accept, Mr. "Elite level runner who just chose not to compete"),
Yet again, another bald faced lie. I know what you are referring to: I said I was training for cross country as a very average runner (if you choose not to lie for a moment, you'll recall my times were similar to other non-stellar-athlete posters' times). I broke my ankle before the season, and by the time it healed, I was not in distance form anymore, so was an end on the football team. Please stop lying.

Quote:
...that says nothing about whether or not you participated in any Catholic performances, or were socially pressured to do so. #2 even if you didn't participate or feel pressured to do so, that says nothing about whether others on the team did.
I pointed out that you don't know what you are talking about regarding students worshipping their coaches. Some might when younger, but by high school, most don't.

Quote:
#3 as a freshman, you weren't even a starter, so whether or not you participated in a coachled religious ceremony wouldn't affect your playing time the way it would for the actual players.
Oh my god, you are getting sickening with the endless lies. Who told you I wasn't a starter, or which team I played on? Almost any JV team have at least some freshman starters. As it happens, my school had a freshman team, JV, and Varsity. All the freshmen were basically rotating starters.

Do you not get bored with your endless lying? Bores the hell out of me.

Quote:
#4 you haven't even said whether or not your Catholic school coach led on field public prayers to begin with, or whether players either participated or were even allowed to not participate.
Of course they prayed. Have you never been around Catholic priests? Not that it has anything to do with anything. You claimed, with dead zero evidence, that players are religiously guided by their coach. I countered with weak anecdotal evidence. Weak as it is, it's exponentially stronger than your bald claim pulled out of your derierre.

Quote:
And all that is just one, tiny aspect of your act.

Speaking of dishonest responses, we aren't talking about student athletes leading prayers. You know that, so why lie?
I didn't say they led. Again, you lied. Quote where I said "led" or any synonym to prove you are not a liar. Go ahead. I'll wait.
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Old 28th June 2022, 10:54 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
This is VERY basic:

The State, in this case the school, has to treat all religions the same. So if they give him the platform to pray, they have to give it to every religion, which is not feasible.

But this is not the important bit: there are a number of testimonies of students who were afraid to not pray with him (both in the Locker room and the field) for fear of repercussions.
The guy used his authority to proselytize, and demanded that the school give him the space, access to students and salary to do so.

This is as flagrant a violation of the constitution as you get, and every single Court agreed with that.
But not this activist SC.
I didn't see any of that in the OP? Is the mobile version different than what you are reading? I'll get back to this tonight when on laptop, because if true, it is certainly a different story.
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Old 28th June 2022, 10:59 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
Why don't we just keep everyone's private beliefs out of public schools, rather than arguing over them individually.

If you're a high school teacher or coach, you've been given a platform to influence your students, and hence a responsibility. Leading them in a prayer they are not comfortable with coerces them whether you mean to or not.

I'm choosing to believe that this coach had nothing but the best of intentions, he no doubt thought he was doing a good thing for his team. But if one kid thinks he is going to be ostracized, or even worse, retaliated against, for nor participating, then this is obviously not benign.

Just keep it out of school.
I agree. It's really easy for this sort of team prayer stuff to get out of hand.

There are ways to keep the line between the school/state and religion separate like having the Christian kids who want to pray go back to the gym and find a separate place to do so.

Y'a can't tell me there wasn't a few kids in the on field prayer who wouldn't have bothered to joining had it not been an expectation of the coach and team.
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Old 28th June 2022, 11:12 AM   #112
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I didn't see any of that in the OP? Is the mobile version different than what you are reading? I'll get back to this tonight when on laptop, because if true, it is certainly a different story.
that's because the SC cherry-picked the case - the actual case is damming as hell.

https://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/...ch-prayer-case
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Old 28th June 2022, 11:35 AM   #113
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I wonder what the SC decision would have been if the coach took a prayer out and laid it on the 50 and knelt down and bowed towards Mecca.
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Old 28th June 2022, 11:56 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not what was said. You try to rewrite the posts yet again.
Sorry, pal, but your claims that coaches don't influence their players are right here, for all to read.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yet again, another bald faced lie. I know what you are referring to: I said I was training for cross country as a very average runner (if you choose not to lie for a moment, you'll recall my times were similar to other non-stellar-athlete posters' times). I broke my ankle before the season, and by the time it healed, I was not in distance form anymore, so was an end on the football team. Please stop lying.
Huh, those weren't the running anecdotes you shared that I was referring to. You claimed that you as "not a runner" had a mile time that would have put you in the top of NCAA competition, but you chose not to participate.

I'm not surprised this version of the story is different, though. Sometimes these things are hard to keep track of.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I pointed out that you don't know what you are talking about regarding students worshipping their coaches. Some might when younger, but by high school, most don't.
Nope, you falsely claimed coaches don't have any influence on their teams. Nobody said players worship their coaches.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Oh my god, you are getting sickening with the endless lies. Who told you I wasn't a starter, or which team I played on? Almost any JV team have at least some freshman starters. As it happens, my school had a freshman team, JV, and Varsity. All the freshmen were basically rotating starters.
My knowledge that partial year freshmen very rarely make the team as players for most schools told me that. Then again, I forgot I was talkling to the world famous surfer, skier, runner, and now football elite athlete. No wonder you were defending Herschel Walker!


Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Of course they prayed. Have you never been around Catholic priests? Not that it has anything to do with anything. You claimed, with dead zero evidence, that players are religiously guided by their coach. I countered with weak anecdotal evidence. Weak as it is, it's exponentially stronger than your bald claim pulled out of your derierre.
The question wasn't whether they prayed, as anyone who wasn't attempting to dodge the point would have seen. The question was whether they gathered you up and prayed on the 50 yardline, and whether or not you were free to abstain.

And, if you weren't tying yourself in knots to argue, you would have seen that you conceded the point of being religiously guided by a coach already. As in: leading a ******* prayer is religious guidance, and you've admitted your own coach did it.


Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I didn't say they led. Again, you lied. Quote where I said "led" or any synonym to prove you are not a liar. Go ahead. I'll wait.
I'm glad you'll wait, but really you should try to read for comprehension and get the answers yourself sometime. It'd save you time and me effort.

This whole story is about a Christian coach leading prayer. Are you with me so far? Not too confusing, yet?
Ok...then you chose to respond to a point that 'every single religion wasn't and couldn't be equally represented so it would be better to not allow just the one' with "Are student athletes from different religions clamoring for space rights?"
So...there it is, there's you jumping from coach led prayer to student athletes leading the charge for religion in public schools.
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Old 28th June 2022, 12:32 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Sorry, pal, but your claims that coaches don't influence their players are right here, for all to read.
No, you claimed flatly that they do, and I countered that it is not as universal as you seem to think, citing real-life experience. This is like when you tried to school me and other lifelong surfers on what a starter surfboard cost (that you were ridiculously wrong about), or telling myself and other lifelong shooters what the length of a shotgun is (also comically out in left field).

However, I'll meet you halfway on this: your blanket claim is too inclusive, and my anecdotal experience insufficient to draw a pattern. We cool?

Quote:
Huh, those weren't the running anecdotes you shared that I was referring to. You claimed that you as "not a runner" had a mile time that would have put you in the top of NCAA competition, but you chose not to participate.
You are either having a senior moment or lying, bud. My claimed mile time was sub 6. Others on that thread at the same age also ran that time. It's not remotely an exceptional time for an early teen.

Pro tip: you are confusing other high schoolers who ran sub 4 with my much less dramatic time. You are doing so foolishly, or lying about it. Either way, the bumble is entirely yours.

I broke my ankle and lost the lungs and legs for distance running, but tried out and was an ok receiver on the freshman team. You are bald faced lying to say anything else.

Quote:
I'm not surprised this version of the story is different, though. Sometimes these things are hard to keep track of.
I believe you that ONE version confounds you. If you have another (and you claim to recall one), quote it. It would take less time than you spend posting excuses. Put up or stop.lying.

Quote:
Nope, you falsely claimed coaches don't have any influence on their teams. Nobody said players worship their coaches.
Addressed above. You made a blanket claim. I noted it was not a blanket.

Quote:
My knowledge that partial year freshmen very rarely make the team as players for most schools told me that.
Lying again. Football season is in the fall. I was asked to seek education elsewhere in the spring. In case the time eludes you, that encompasses the entire football season with months to spare.

Quote:
Then again, I forgot I was talkling to the world famous surfer, skier, runner, and now football elite athlete. No wonder you were defending Herschel Walker!
Of course, liar. Taking part in recreational common sports that damn near any American kid has done at that level is totally the same as claiming to be a world famous athlete. And totally, totally, I defended Walker. Yup. That's what happened.

Sorry man, your lying allotment for the month has been exceeded. I'm not being baited with further trolling. Catch you on the next one, where I'm confident you will claim that I said I was an NFL first round draft pick ITT.
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Old 28th June 2022, 12:37 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
that's because the SC cherry-picked the case - the actual case is damming as hell.

https://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/...ch-prayer-case
Thanks for the link. Seriously. I'll check it out when home on laptop, and may revise my position based on your provided information.
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Old 28th June 2022, 12:41 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Like I say. . .prayers about loving one another or thanking a deity that the football game didn't result in any players on either team getting their neck broken don't raise hackles.
When we were in Texas, we went to an NCAA rodeo. Being Texas, we had to start the event with a prayer for the safety of all the men and women competing in the rodeo.

And then when the guy was thrown from the horse in bronc riding and getting hauled away on the stretcher, we all had to pray for him that it wasn't serious. But, we were assured, he was a fine, Christian young man and God would look over him.

It was all the most pointless ******** you could do.

In the end, no amount of praying could change the fact that the horse kicked his ass
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Old 28th June 2022, 12:44 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
In some sense, the rest of the public is actually irrelevant. I have no idea why Warpie focused on that when that has never been what decisions like Engel vs. Vitale have been about.
I'd suggest because it's the only rationalization of why it wasn't 'public prayer' he could come up with.
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Old 28th June 2022, 01:00 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
No, you claimed flatly that they do, and I countered that it is not as universal as you seem to think, citing real-life experience. This is like when you tried to school me and other lifelong surfers on what a starter surfboard cost (that you were ridiculously wrong about), or telling myself and other lifelong shooters what the length of a shotgun is (also comically out in left field).

However, I'll meet you halfway on this: your blanket claim is too inclusive, and my anecdotal experience insufficient to draw a pattern. We cool?
No, you poor thing, I'm not going to allow you that mendacious fig leaf. Claiming that coaches influence their players is not a declaration that all coaches absolutely control every single one of their players in all facets of their lives. Claiming coaches influence their players is simply a true statement, as that's what they're ******* supposed to be doing as coaches.


Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You are either having a senior moment or lying, bud. My claimed mile time was sub 6. Others on that thread at the same age also ran that time. It's not remotely an exceptional time for an early teen.

Pro tip: you are confusing other high schoolers who ran sub 4 with my much less dramatic time. You are doing so foolishly, or lying about it. Either way, the bumble is entirely yours.

I broke my ankle and lost the lungs and legs for distance running, but tried out and was an ok receiver on the freshman team. You are bald faced lying to say anything else.
Yes, you previously claimed sub 4 was both common and easy in the thread that you bragged about having a sub 5 minute mile (which is sub 6, so this particular variation doesn't disagree much).


Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I believe you that ONE version confounds you. If you have another (and you claim to recall one), quote it. It would take less time than you spend posting excuses. Put up or stop.lying.
It's not worth the effort, as when I put up about your switcheroo from coach led to student athlete led you just changed the subject. Why go back through and search to have you change the subject again?

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Addressed above. You made a blanket claim. I noted it was not a blanket.
Goalpost move noted, and denied as I also addressed you above.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Lying again. Football season is in the fall. I was asked to seek education elsewhere in the spring. In case the time eludes you, that encompasses the entire football season with months to spare.
This whole thing where I take your claim and use it, then you change the story and claim I'm lying is kinda tedious, man. You said you attended the school for part of your freshman year. If you had meant that you were on the team for the entire season, you would have led with that. That your story changed doesn't make me a liar.


Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Of course, liar. Taking part in recreational common sports that damn near any American kid has done at that level is totally the same as claiming to be a world famous athlete. And totally, totally, I defended Walker. Yup. That's what happened.
Well, you said he was no worse than the candidates you vote for, but you never explained how that wasn't defending him.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Thanks for the link. Seriously. I'll check it out when home on laptop, and may revise my position based on your provided information.
You actually had that info in the links in the original story, but you chose to ignore them to be all contrarian.
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Old 28th June 2022, 01:07 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
Why don't we just keep everyone's private beliefs out of public schools, rather than arguing over them individually.

If you're a high school teacher or coach, you've been given a platform to influence your students, and hence a responsibility. Leading them in a prayer they are not comfortable with coerces them whether you mean to or not.

I'm choosing to believe that this coach had nothing but the best of intentions, he no doubt thought he was doing a good thing for his team. But if one kid thinks he is going to be ostracized, or even worse, retaliated against, for nor participating, then this is obviously not benign.

Just keep it out of school.
THIS! The coach could have said a silent prayer to himself after every damn quarter if he wanted to give thanks to his God. He did NOT need to involve the players is a public demonstration. I suspect that he was deliberately trying to make a public show of praying to force the issue as he filed the lawsuit immediately:

Quote:
Kennedy began his prayer ritual soon after he was hired in 2008, but the school district grew concerned when Kennedy’s short, quiet prayers grew in 2015 as players began joining him on the field all while the crowd was still in the stands.

The school district said it never restricted him from offering silent, private prayers, and offered him an alternate place to pray off the football field after games. Kennedy refused the accommodations and was ultimately placed on paid administrative leave and suspended from the program. After the season, he was given a poor performance evaluation.

He did not seek a new contract, but instead filed suit, arguing that the school district had violated his rights under the First Amendment. Kennedy lost his case at the district court level and before the 9th US Circuit Court of Appeals, which held that his prayer amounted to governmental speech that is not protected by the First Amendment.
Quote:
Lawyers for the school district had argued to the court that Kennedy’s prayer practice was not private or personal prayer, but rather a ritual undertaken in full view of students that the school district was justified in restricting.

“No one doubts that public school employees can have quiet prayers by themselves at work even if students can see,” Richard B. Katskee, a lawyer for Americans United for Separation of Church and State, told the justices.

But, Katskee said, that is not what Kennedy had engaged in. Instead, Katskee argued, Kennedy “insisted on audible prayers at the 50-yard line with students … (and) announced in the press that those prayers are how he helps these kids be better people.”
https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/27/polit...edy/index.html
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