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Old 28th June 2022, 01:21 PM   #121
dudalb
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
So how would you make sure that every ... Single ... Religion gets equal access to praying on the field?

Or wouldn't it be better if just none got to pray?

You get into legtimate free speech issues there.
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Old 28th June 2022, 01:45 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
No, you poor thing, I'm not going to allow you that mendacious fig leaf. Claiming that coaches influence their players is not a declaration that all coaches absolutely control every single one of their players in all facets of their lives. Claiming coaches influence their players is simply a true statement, as that's what they're ******* supposed to be doing as coaches.
Great. You have a lot of lies you have not adressed.

Quote:
Yes, you previously claimed sub 4 was both common and easy in the thread that you bragged about having a sub 5 minute mile (which is sub 6, so this particular variation doesn't disagree much).
You're a liar. I said repeatedly I was sub6, and I think once said in the 5s. Never ever did I say sub 5. You are a liar. Here's a link (Yes, I went back and checked to see if I did misstate my time): http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8#post13447238Should you have a shred of honesty buried deep down, you'll note in the same discussion I also said I broke my ankle while training for CC and consequently never ran for them, not the lies that you claim here.

We can take this to PM if you like to stop 11 and 12 violations, and we probably should. But that would take further honesty on your part.

Every word you posted about my running was a bald faced lie. Quote otherwise or stfu. If you don't, and we both know you won't, surely you won't mind if I just refer to you as lyin, instead of wareyin? Thanks in advance.


Quote:
It's not worth the effort, as when I put up about your switcheroo from coach led to student athlete led you just changed the subject. Why go back through and search to have you change the subject again?
There it is, the cowardly ducking when challenged. Predictable. I'll await the evidence for your lies up to this point before continuing.

Quote:
This whole thing where I take your claim and use it, then you change the story and claim I'm lying is kinda tedious, man. You said you attended the school for part of your freshman year. If you had meant that you were on the team for the entire season, you would have led with that.
Just this last thing: I really, genuinely didn't think that anyone would be so stupid as to think being a student for most of freshman year would mean less than the first few months, as that is when a USA football season runs.
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Old 28th June 2022, 02:06 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You get into legtimate free speech issues there.
Ah yes, but does one persons free speech trump the rights of others not to be subjected to that speech?

After all, this is not a situation where the players of the team can walk away at any moment. In the end it's a teacher/student situation with a clear unbalance of power and a semi-captive audience.

It seems at the moment the supreme court of the US feels that a teachers right to subject his students to his religious beliefs trumps the students rights to choose themselves. His job is to coach a team, not guide them as a priest.
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Old 28th June 2022, 02:15 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Thankfully this sort of crap will not occur on an Australian sporting field. Another reason to laugh at US Christians.
Does anyone know if such ostentatious displays of entreaties to Sky Daddy over a game occur in other countries?

My impression is that this is a uniquely infantile American practice. But then, I don't follow the whole Sports thing...
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Old 28th June 2022, 03:23 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Does anyone know if such ostentatious displays of entreaties to Sky Daddy over a game occur in other countries?

My impression is that this is a uniquely infantile American practice. But then, I don't follow the whole Sports thing...
Sumo?
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Old 28th June 2022, 04:01 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Ok, hang on. Is the school somehow paying for this? I got the impression that the coach was doing this with the full willing participation of the team. Is this not so?

Separation of church and state in no way shape or form means that teams or clubs cannot do things like this. It means the school can't favor one, or compel one, or step on religious freedoms .

You guys do remember those pesky religious freedoms, right? They work both ways.

Eta: yeah, just reread the story. The coach originally walked out to the 50 yard line after a game and had himself a little private prayer. Team members began joining him on their own. I think the courts got this one right, as odd as it feels to some. Separation of church and State does not mean banning private religious expression. That's actually a separate constitutional violation.
I don't agree with you. There is a time and place for private prayers. What was so compelling that it be on the 50 yd line after a game?

Separation of church and state is about the state not promoting a certain religion. It has been determined that teachers and other school staff displaying their religion at school amounts to promoting their religion.

Don't believe it, look at the current SCOTUS Evangelicals claiming the founding fathers intended the country to be a Christian country with a Christian government.
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Old 28th June 2022, 04:03 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Have you ever been in a similar situation? I have. I attended a Catholic high school for most of my freshman year. We had Jewish guys on our offensive line, myself and a few other agnostic protestants as ends and receivers. Guess how many of us turned catholic under the influence of the priestly coaching staff. Go on, guess.
That has zilch to do with public schools.
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Old 28th June 2022, 04:25 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
....
Separation of C&S =/= quelling voluntary religious expression [in public schools].
You left that last part off.

The **** it doesn't. It says government can't be seen to favor one religion and you know damn well that's what a minority of Christian Evangelical activists want the government to do, make this country a Christian theocracy. They've been pushing for it since Jerry Falwell and Reagan. And they've been trying to re-write history to suit their god beliefs.

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Old 28th June 2022, 04:39 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Does anyone know if such ostentatious displays of entreaties to Sky Daddy over a game occur in other countries?

My impression is that this is a uniquely infantile American practice. But then, I don't follow the whole Sports thing...
Christian Fundies, like Catholics and many other religions have a lot of rituals in their belief system. One ritual of the Evangelicals is declaring you're with God at every public opportunity you can. They believe they are demonstrating their belief and God likes that.

It goes something like this: The Lutheran Global Mission though there are several varieties. Spreading the Evangelical gospel grows the church's coffers.

Quote:
As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, continue to live your lives in him, rooted and built up in him and established in the faith.” Colossians 2:6–7a.

Rooted and built in Jesus! This is the core of our work as the ELCA walks with more than 80 companion churches in other countries to participate in God’s reconciling mission through proclamation and service.
These are the same people who have those mega-churches which they present all sorts of entertainment on multiple stages and giant screens to attract donors members.

Display your religion on your sleeve. God likes that.

Don't kid yourself this coach isn't proselytizing with this prayer in the middle of the friggin* football field.


*Intended word, not an attempt to defeat the auto censor.
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Old 28th June 2022, 04:48 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And yet again, your dishonest response betrays you.

You claim some kind of powerful influence a coach has over its players, and expect everyone to take that claim as a given. I, and probably everyone else that has had a team coach, knows that to be an old wives tale.
Do you have a plan for screening every one of these teachers and coaches, then screening the kids on the team or in the class to make sure there is no undue influence in each case?

Why would you cite some personal anecdote in a skeptics' forum as evidence there's no potential harm? Of course it's not going to influence every kid every time. D'uh!

There is a general principle for keeping prayer out of schools, it's been debated and discussed ad nauseum when the subject comes up on forums and in the news. How did you miss this discussion through your whole adult life? Must it be repeated here because you weren't aware of the issue of school prayer?
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Old 28th June 2022, 04:53 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Sample prayer:

Coach: "Let us all pray that John stops farting on the team bus, and Rico's ankle heals up in time for state finals."


Responses:

Peanut Gallery: "You Christian POS, stop influencing the children!"

Supreme Court Majority: "We side with you, coach."


I really think this situation is being mischaracterized as some sort of state-sponsored forced indoctrination. Which it isn't.
Another straw man, make it sound like we are arguing said prayer after a game in the middle of the football field is devastating.

No one is saying that so stop setting up straw men to fight with.

It is subtile influence. Some kids at some time will feel pressured. In order to prevent that you have to prevent teachers and football coaches in public schools from advocating their religion which is just what this does.
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Old 28th June 2022, 05:21 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Ah yes, but does one persons free speech trump the rights of others not to be subjected to that speech?

After all, this is not a situation where the players of the team can walk away at any moment. In the end it's a teacher/student situation with a clear unbalance of power and a semi-captive audience.

It seems at the moment the supreme court of the US feels that a teachers right to subject his students to his religious beliefs trumps the students rights to choose themselves. His job is to coach a team, not guide them as a priest.
I agree, the issue is the coach using his postion to coerce his team members.
I don't see someone asking Jesus for his team to win in the stands to be an issue. Annoyning, perhaps, but being annoyned is part of the price we pay for free speech.
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Old 28th June 2022, 06:34 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I'm not sure why this has to be so complicated. Can't an employer tell an employee not to promote personal interests on company time in company facilities? Will we see Walmart clerks organizing prayer circles in the aisles on Saturday afternoons? His employer told him to cut it out and he refused. For most of us in most circumstances, that would be the end of it
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Old 28th June 2022, 06:51 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
that's because the SC cherry-picked the case - the actual case is damming as hell.

https://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/...ch-prayer-case
That's a good article explaining why SCOTUS decisions are based on general principles not based on trying individual cases. From the link:
Quote:
The Freedom From Religion Foundation is gravely concerned that some U.S. Supreme Court justices will seek to use the case they heard today, about an ostentatiously praying coach, as an excuse to allow school staff to push religion onto students.
Tell me this guy wasn't proselytizing:
Quote:
The litigant, Joe Kennedy, claims God called him to become a coach, and that he promised God to “give you the glory after every game, win or lose.” ...

Richard Katskee, the Americans United attorney arguing on behalf of the school district, said Kennedy insisted on giving audible prayers so students could join, and “created a zoo on the field.”
There's a lot packed into that article and people in this thread should read it if they care to understand the issues.

Besides the fact the case shouldn't have come before SCOTUS because the coach moved out of WA, it's clear these religious fundies are just itching to take on cases where they can dismantle all sorts of case law to push their fundie version of Christianity on the country.
Quote:
Conservative justices on the court may be ready to undermine the court’s prior cases on religion in school. Justice Neil Gorsuch asked about the use of the endorsement test, which counsel for Kennedy said should be formally overruled along with the court’s longstanding Lemon test. These tests have been used by courts throughout the country for decades to ensure that governments do not advance religion or appear to endorse religion.

“Aside from the fact that this case shouldn’t have been in front of the court in the first place, because of the mootness issue, the case law has been clear — no public school employee can lead students in prayer. This case is just another instance of an ultraconservative Supreme Court looking to dismantle the wall of separation,” says FFRF Legal Director Rebecca Markert.

FFRF Co-President Annie Laurie Gaylor remarks, “Whatever this court decides, we know one thing: Our cherished founding principle of separation between state and church is in jeopardy. Religious extremists will take this as a signal to redouble their efforts to unravel more than 60 years of firm Supreme Court precedent protecting the rights of students to be free from religious ritual and indoctrination in our public schools.”
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Old 28th June 2022, 06:56 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
THIS! The coach could have said a silent prayer to himself after every damn quarter if he wanted to give thanks to his God. He did NOT need to involve the players is a public demonstration. I suspect that he was deliberately trying to make a public show of praying to force the issue as he filed the lawsuit immediately:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/27/polit...edy/index.html
Clearly not quiet or private.
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Old 28th June 2022, 08:28 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You get into legtimate free speech issues there.
no, i don't.
state employees during work don't have the same free speech protections.
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Old 28th June 2022, 09:54 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I agree, the issue is the coach using his postion to coerce his team members.
I don't see someone asking Jesus for his team to win in the stands to be an issue. Annoyning, perhaps, but being annoyned is part of the price we pay for free speech.
As a teacher students will try to please him in order to keep in his good graces because he is the one that gets to decide whether they get to keep doing what they like.
Coercion does not have to be explicit to be there.
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Old 28th June 2022, 10:08 PM   #138
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If the coach insist on praying in public, of course he insists on doing so with his students in the locker room, and at every other opportunity.

And , of course, the had no standing to bring the case, but that doesn't stop this activist SC's crusade.
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Old 29th June 2022, 05:34 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Great. You have a lot of lies you have not adressed.
Nope, I addressed your lies already, pal. Coaches influence their players, this coach intended to influence his players, this coach ******* bragged about influencing his players to the media, but you say coaches don't influence their players so public school prayers led by the coach are fine and dandy. You even admitted that your coach influenced your behaviour while claiming your anecdote proved they didn't.



Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You're a liar. I said repeatedly I was sub6, and I think once said in the 5s. Never ever did I say sub 5. You are a liar. Here's a link (Yes, I went back and checked to see if I did misstate my time): http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8#post13447238Should you have a shred of honesty buried deep down, you'll note in the same discussion I also said I broke my ankle while training for CC and consequently never ran for them, not the lies that you claim here.

We can take this to PM if you like to stop 11 and 12 violations, and we probably should. But that would take further honesty on your part.
Ah, thanks for dredging that up. I forgot your claims to have that 5 minute mile were as a HS Freshman, while also claiming you weren't a runner. Yeah, Thermal humble brags as one of the best HS runners in the country, but it's everyone else that's lying.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Every word you posted about my running was a bald faced lie. Quote otherwise or stfu. If you don't, and we both know you won't, surely you won't mind if I just refer to you as lyin, instead of wareyin? Thanks in advance.
You just linked to it, pal. You just proved I wasn't lying. Thanks.

eta: ya know what? Here's where you said a 4 minute mile was "a leisurely trot pace", yet now your best ever was "sub 6?"

Oh, and here you claimed "I was in the 5s and wasn't even a runner" , since you wanted quotes and all. Now you're either going to drop this like it never happened (like your student athlete led prayer switcheroo) or you're just going to ignore this evidence and claim you never said it.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
There it is, the cowardly ducking when challenged. Predictable. I'll await the evidence for your lies up to this point before continuing.
Nah, as I pointed out, catching you in a lie isn't worth the effort. I even used the example of this very thread. You know, where you switched between a coach led prayer to student athletes calling for prayers? And then...crickets.

But, thankfully you couldn't help yourself and posted a link to the very claims you said you didn't make! Abso-*******-lutely hilarious!

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Just this last thing: I really, genuinely didn't think that anyone would be so stupid as to think being a student for most of freshman year would mean less than the first few months, as that is when a USA football season runs.
You are unaware that students can miss the beginning or middle of a year, rather than just the end? Really?

Nah, this has to be more performance art.

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Old 29th June 2022, 05:43 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
no, i don't.
state employees during work don't have the same free speech protections.
State employees don't even have the same free speech protections outside of work. If I list a school as my place of employment on social media, or in my profile pic, or in any way that can be interpreted as me representing the school, I can be sactioned for political or religious posts made outside of business hours, at the discretion of the school.

A football coach who just coached the game praying on the 50 yard line is in every way attempting to use his status as coach to promote his religious views.
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Old 29th June 2022, 07:06 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Have you ever been in a similar situation? I have. I attended a Catholic high school for most of my freshman year. We had Jewish guys on our offensive line, myself and a few other agnostic protestants as ends and receivers. Guess how many of us turned catholic under the influence of the priestly coaching staff. Go on, guess.
First of all, as others have hinted at, even if things don't "change religion", there can be negative consequences.

Lets say you're an atheist/muslim/satinist/pastifarian playing football at the school where they are doing their little post-game prayers... Maybe some of the players might feel ostracized if they don't participate (even if they don't end up converting to christianity in the end). Or maybe the coaches might treat the player different (e.g. reduced playing time) since they might think the person isn't a "team player" for not joining in the worship of the invisible sky daddy.

Secondly... there is a difference in the way Catholics and Evangelicals push things. Catholics have their problems (sex scandals, anti-birth control, etc.). However, the catholic church isn't as extreme as many/most evangelicals.... (e.g. the church as a whole rejects creationism, and while the pope might be against birth control, the rank-and-file church members are sometimes more open minded.)

An atheist person going to your catholic school will be under a different set of pressures than an atheist dealing with an evangelical.
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Old 29th June 2022, 08:07 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Lets say you're an atheist/muslim/satinist....
Worships satin? I mean, I'm cool with it & you should be too (First Amendment and all).
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Old 29th June 2022, 08:28 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
You are missing the point. Clearly this isn't just about the law for some folks. They just can't stand Christians. Just read the rhetoric that I quoted.
He isn’t missing the point….you simply aren’t making a point.

Two things can be true. I can’t stand Christian’s AND I can see that this ruling contradicts decades of established interpretations confirming a separation of church and state.

If this had been a Muslim conducting the church service on school grounds during an official school event and at least tacitly coercing students to participate (that happened. In America), this court would not have ruled in favor of the coach. And (hypothetically with a different set of 6 fundamental crackpot justices), if the court had ruled I. Favor of a Muslim fundie crackpot, the people decrying the result would still be decrying the result AND all of the Christian fundie retards now praising the result would also be decrying the result.
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Old 29th June 2022, 08:55 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
He isn’t missing the point….you simply aren’t making a point.

Two things can be true. I can’t stand Christian’s AND I can see that this ruling contradicts decades of established interpretations confirming a separation of church and state.

If this had been a Muslim conducting the church service on school grounds during an official school event and at least tacitly coercing students to participate (that happened. In America), this court would not have ruled in favor of the coach.
If such a case had made it to the docket, the SCOTUS would not have ruled against such a hypothetical Muslim coach. Such a case would not ever have gotten picked up in the first place and the lower court rulings (against the coach) would have stood.
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Old 29th June 2022, 05:11 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
no, i don't.
state employees during work don't have the same free speech protections.
But I was responding to your "What if no one has the right to pray" comment.
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Old 30th June 2022, 02:29 AM   #146
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"The litigant, Joe Kennedy, claims God called him to become a coach, and that he promised God to “give you the glory after every game, win or lose.” ..."

I'm sure God is really thrilled with the resulting 'glory' he gets from a high school football game.
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Old 30th June 2022, 05:02 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
"The litigant, Joe Kennedy, claims God called him to become a coach, and that he promised God to “give you the glory after every game, win or lose.” ..."

I'm sure God is really thrilled with the resulting 'glory' he gets from a high school football game.
According to his loudest fans, God needs publicity at every opportunity.
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Old 30th June 2022, 04:40 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
According to his loudest fans, God needs publicity at every opportunity.
God and Jesus both seem like narcissists to me.
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Old 2nd July 2022, 08:05 AM   #149
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Finally some sanity about the First Amendment and religious expression on publicly owned property. A coach kneeling for a prayer on a high school football field after a game does not even remotely constitute "establishing religion."

Lots of high school, college, and professional football players briefly kneel and/or cross themselves in the end zone after scoring a touchdown. Only a handful of radical atheists have complained about this. Virtually no one buys their argument that this "establishes religion."
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Old 2nd July 2022, 09:51 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by mikegriffith1 View Post
Lots of high school, college, and professional football players briefly kneel and/or cross themselves in the end zone after scoring a touchdown. Only a handful of radical atheists have complained about this. Virtually no one buys their argument that this "establishes religion."
Not even a handful of atheists. This is a straw man. This was someone acting in the capacity of a coach.

But you know that.
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Old 2nd July 2022, 02:02 PM   #151
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by mikegriffith1 View Post
Finally some sanity about the First Amendment and religious expression on publicly owned property. A coach kneeling for a prayer on a high school football field after a game does not even remotely constitute "establishing religion."

Lots of high school, college, and professional football players briefly kneel and/or cross themselves in the end zone after scoring a touchdown. Only a handful of radical atheists have complained about this. Virtually no one buys their argument that this "establishes religion."
People kneeling or praying individually is quite another thing to the coach, a school authority figure, leading a prayer group on the field. The coach was offered a place to do this off the field but refused it. No one was suppressing his right of religious expression.

You misunderstand what 'establishment of religion' means.

Quote:
Today, what constitutes an "establishment of religion" is often governed under the three-part test set forth by the U.S. Supreme Court in Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602 (1971). Under the "Lemon" test, government can assist religion only if (1) the primary purpose of the assistance is secular, (2) the assistance must neither promote nor inhibit religion, and (3) there is no excessive entanglement between church and state.
https://www.uscourts.gov/educational...20of%20England.

A public school is part of 'the government': " Public schools are government-run schools regulated by federal, state and local law."

Therefore, by allowing an authority figure of the public school to publicly lead an audible prayer group at an official school function, he is "promoting religion" which violates the "Lemon test".

THIS SC is now dominated by religious ideologues like Thomas who, instead of following the previous SC finding in Lemon v. Kurtzman, have chosen to rule according to their personal religious beliefs. Shame on them.
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Old 2nd July 2022, 03:30 PM   #152
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It's also a straight lie that the coach was fired, even after he ignored the school's request to stop.
This SC can only justify its ruling bu lying.
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Old 2nd July 2022, 03:50 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It's also a straight lie that the coach was fired, even after he ignored the school's request to stop.
This SC can only justify its ruling bu lying.
Not to mention it had become a huge spectacle.
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Old 5th July 2022, 09:10 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It's also a straight lie that the coach was fired, even after he ignored the school's request to stop.
This SC can only justify its ruling bu lying.
That's what they do. Sotomayor said Gorsuch used the argument that this was a quiet individual prayer. It was not.
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Old 19th July 2022, 02:01 PM   #155
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From https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/07/supreme-court-religion-schools-prayer-kennedy-carson/661365/
Quote:
Religious conservatives have been fighting for years to get prayer back into America’s schools, and this year, the Supreme Court gave them what they wanted. In Kennedy v. Bremerton, the six conservative justices affirmed a coach’s right to offer a prayer after a football game.

But what is really astonishing is that this decision will over time prove to be less monumental than the Court’s other big religion decision this term. In Maine’s Carson v. Makin, the Court ruled 6–3 that a state could not exclude private religious schools from receiving public funding only because of their religion. In prospect, it opens up a vast new world of publicly funded religious schools—using tax money, potentially—to teach kids that dinosaurs walked with humans, that girls primarily come into this world to grow up and bear children, or that only heterosexuals deserve rights. Maine quickly passed a law to keep public money away from avowedly anti-LGBTQ schools, but legislators will only be able to play anti-discrimination whack-a-mole for so long. Carson, not Kennedy, is the decision that could reshape the relationship of Church and school in America—even though prayer in school has long been the symbolic victory conservatives were intent on winning.
[...]
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Old 19th July 2022, 03:29 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
They are determined to make the US a Christian Nation and blur, if not delete, the concept of separation of Church and State. As Boebert said: "“I’m tired of this separation of church and state junk.”
“The church is supposed to direct the government. The government is not supposed to direct the church. That is not how our founding fathers intended it.”

They won't be happy until we have a Christian version of the Taliban.
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Old 19th July 2022, 03:46 PM   #157
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I do wonder which denomination of Christianity will win the Theocratic war?
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Old 19th July 2022, 03:52 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
They are determined to make the US a Christian Nation and blur, if not delete, the concept of separation of Church and State. As Boebert said: "“I’m tired of this separation of church and state junk.”
“The church is supposed to direct the government. The government is not supposed to direct the church. That is not how our founding fathers intended it.”

They won't be happy until we have a Christian version of the Taliban.

We don't agree on much. But Boebert is an idiot.

If a little "crazy hot", though.
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Old 19th July 2022, 04:00 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
I do wonder which denomination of Christianity will win the Theocratic war?
I'd put my money on the Evangelicals or Southern Baptists.
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Old 19th July 2022, 04:19 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I'd put my money on the Evangelicals or Southern Baptists.
Lutherans. They have that German knack for conquest.
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