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View Poll Results: The raid was...
Absolutely a good thing - no question 128 77.58%
An outrage, a travesty - what about Magna Carta? Did she die in vain? 4 2.42%
I'll wait before I make a judgement thank you. 27 16.36%
Mar-X-Lago! 6 3.64%
Voters: 165. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10th August 2022, 07:53 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Trump allies are saying he declassified document before removing them from the WH and taking them to MaL. Trouble is, there is not evidence of this.
The problem of course Stacy, There isn't a formal process for declassifying documents. But it doesnt realky matter if the documents could be used against the United States by a foreign power.
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Old 10th August 2022, 08:15 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Trump allies are saying he declassified document before removing them from the WH and taking them to MaL. Trouble is, there is not evidence of this.
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The problem of course Stacy, There isn't a formal process for declassifying documents. But it doesnt realky matter if the documents could be used against the United States by a foreign power.
I could be wrong here but the rub is not that the documents are or were classified but that they are subject to the presidential records act which requires that they be turned over when the president leaves office.

If Trump did declassify them then he's dim wit because that leaves the records more open to public view. Suppose he took some files with him that show he sold the U.S. out to Putin, or some such thing (his first impeachment shows he's stupid enough to think he can get away with that).

So now he's declassified the very documents that could put him in the big house, or at least throw him on history's slag heap.

And even if the documents are still classified or too sensitive to show publicly a closed session of a congressional committee can still ream his butt.

This guy ain't that bright.

Last edited by arayder; 10th August 2022 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 10th August 2022, 08:21 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The problem of course Stacy, There isn't a formal process for declassifying documents But it doesnt realky matter if the documents could be used against the United States by a foreign power.
But in any case, it does not matter even if he claims he declassified them. He is still not allowed to be in possession of them and he is certainly NOT allowed to withhold them from the National Archives.

Also, declassifying documents in order to remove them and destroy them is destroying evidence, and that’s obstruction of justice or obstruction of Congress.
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Old 10th August 2022, 08:35 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
This guy ain't that bright.
Okay, let's take Ike as an example. . .

He was not in politics, as such, but he had experience as allied commander and in working with world leaders.

He studied and learned the trade so to speak. He surrounded himself with people he trusted and listened to. He made a "smart organization".

Trump is the opposite.

Who in the blazes thinks he can steal documents from the White House and get away with it? Wasn't there anybody there to say, "Hey, boss, you can't take those files home."?

Last edited by arayder; 10th August 2022 at 08:36 PM.
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Old 10th August 2022, 08:48 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Okay, let's take Ike as an example. . .

He was not in politics, as such, but he had experience as allied commander and in working with world leaders.

He studied and learned the trade so to speak. He surrounded himself with people he trusted and listened to. He made a "smart organization".

Trump is the opposite.

Who in the blazes thinks he can steal documents from the White House and get away with it? Wasn't there anybody there to say, "Hey, boss, you can't take those files home."?
I imagine there was, and team Trump promptly completely ignored them.
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Old 10th August 2022, 08:51 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Okay, let's take Ike as an example. . .

He was not in politics, as such, but he had experience as allied commander and in working with world leaders.

He studied and learned the trade so to speak. He surrounded himself with people he trusted and listened to. He made a "smart organization".

Trump is the opposite.

Who in the blazes thinks he can steal documents from the White House and get away with it? Wasn't there anybody there to say, "Hey, boss, you can't take those files home."?
The weird bit is how his lawyers and he is seeding the ground for the claim that the FBI "planted" stuff there.

We know he had documents there. That is not going to be in dispute even by them, as far as I know. The dispute is presumably about what has not yet been revealed.

Trump has not shown the warrant. The FBI have not commented on this. The DOJ have not commented yet, have they?

Also, hasn't Trump pleaded the 5th? I don't know if that is in connection to this. Anyone?

I am still in "wait and see" mode because Trump and co are acting like this is more than just retrieving documents.
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Old 10th August 2022, 09:04 PM   #287
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Something Malcolm Nance explained this morning, IIUC, is that, yes, while the President can declassify documents, he still has to officially inform the relevant authorities what he has declassified, because all government documents are indexed on a register that records the date of their creation, the date that any amendments or changes were made, and who made them, and most importantly in this case, the date of any classification change and who changed it. If The Fat Orange Turd did declassify any documents, that information will be listed and dated in the document register. That is what Nance was talking about when he said procedures have to be followed.
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Old 10th August 2022, 09:08 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
The weird bit is how his lawyers and he is seeding the ground for the claim that the FBI "planted" stuff there.

We know he had documents there. That is not going to be in dispute even by them, as far as I know. The dispute is presumably about what has not yet been revealed.

Trump has not shown the warrant. The FBI have not commented on this. The DOJ have not commented yet, have they?

Also, hasn't Trump pleaded the 5th? I don't know if that is in connection to this. Anyone?

I am still in "wait and see" mode because Trump and co are acting like this is more than just retrieving documents.
But still somehow the Dems are raising havoc everywhere and politically attacking Dear Leader, screaming in the MSM with unrestrained TDS. Haven't we all seen this??!

Although I should not have to...
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Old 10th August 2022, 09:39 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
The weird bit is how his lawyers and he is seeding the ground for the claim that the FBI "planted" stuff there.

We know he had documents there. That is not going to be in dispute even by them, as far as I know. The dispute is presumably about what has not yet been revealed.

Trump has not shown the warrant. The FBI have not commented on this. The DOJ have not commented yet, have they?

Also, hasn't Trump pleaded the 5th? I don't know if that is in connection to this. Anyone?

I am still in "wait and see" mode because Trump and co are acting like this is more than just retrieving documents.
He must think he can shoot somebody on 5th ave. . .oh, he does think that.

Why, in the first place, put yourself in a position where a crooked FBI agent or two could slip a damning piece of paper in the evidence they take out of your home?

And didn't he have his own folks looking over the FBI's shoulders all the time they were there?

Your wait and see mode is correct, angrysoba. But the way I figure it he knew he had badly incriminating evidence in the boxes and that's why he took them home.

He suspect he knows dang well that the DOJ is going to honestly pull some bad stuff out of the boxes and he's just throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks.

He's really going to have problems if the bad deed gets corroborated by a White House staffer, undersecretary of something, or cabinet head who decides they aren't going to wreck their carriers by for covering him.

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Old 10th August 2022, 09:54 PM   #290
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Every accusation is a confession: no doubt Trump and his cronies discussed planting evidence on HRC and others.
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Old 10th August 2022, 10:00 PM   #291
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Still waiting on the Dem-led MSM "witch-hunt" propaganda river of anti-Trump accusations and lies to start flowing as a result of this raid... Donny said it would. It's what he would do!
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Old 10th August 2022, 10:47 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Also, hasn't Trump pleaded the 5th? I don't know if that is in connection to this. Anyone?
He pleaded the 5th in relation to the NY AG investigation into his finances pre-2016.

Good article (IMHO):

Donald Trump refuses to answer questions in New York investigation https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-62494861

"Mr Trump began by reading a statement into the record condemning the attorney general and her investigation and invoking his Fifth Amendment rights. He proceeded to say "same answer" to every question he was asked."
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Old 10th August 2022, 10:59 PM   #293
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TFG thinks people around him are wearing wires.
Quote:
Donald Trump is worried he may have a rat — or multiple rats — in his midst. He’s wondering if his phones are tapped, or even if one of his buddies could be “wearing a wire.”
https://www.rollingstone.com/politic...-rats-1395609/
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Old 10th August 2022, 11:40 PM   #294
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There is at least one rumor that, far from a "raid", the FBI had a very focused search warrant for particular documents and knew exactly where inside the estate they were being stored because a member of Trump's inner circle reported that information to them. If that's the case, Trump's paranoia may not be entirely baseless.
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Old 10th August 2022, 11:42 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
He pleaded the 5th in relation to the NY AG investigation into his finances pre-2016.

Good article (IMHO):

Donald Trump refuses to answer questions in New York investigation https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-62494861

"Mr Trump began by reading a statement into the record condemning the attorney general and her investigation and invoking his Fifth Amendment rights. He proceeded to say "same answer" to every question he was asked."
Did he have to use a teleprompter?
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Old 10th August 2022, 11:43 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
TFG thinks people around him are wearing wires.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politic...-rats-1395609/
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
There is at least one rumor that, far from a "raid", the FBI had a very focused search warrant for particular documents and knew exactly where inside the estate they were being stored because a member of Trump's inner circle reported that information to them. If that's the case, Trump's paranoia may not be entirely baseless.


Criminals tend to be very paranoid and distrusting. For good reason.
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Old 11th August 2022, 12:45 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
The amount of Q-anon chuds replying to that post with various accusations of pedophilia on Stephen's part and "I remember when you used to be funny"... Clear coordination.
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Old 11th August 2022, 01:34 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
The amount of Q-anon chuds replying to that post with various accusations of pedophilia on Stephen's part and "I remember when you used to be funny"... Clear coordination.
They are screaming uselessly into the void. I could be wrong, but I think that unlike Jan 6, this is a relatively small number of very vocal Qnuts and MAGA mororns

Lawrence O'Donnell made a very good point yesterday on MSNBC (I posted a video and transcript earlier) - that there seems to be a lot of noisy anger on social media, and talking heads on GQP-TV losing their minds as they collapse onto their fainting couches, but we really are not seeing the massive protest crowds turning out in support of The Fat Orange Turd.

In the lead up to January 6 we saw a similar amount of online poutrage and threats to from Qnuts and MAGA morons that we are seeing now, but the crowd turnout is not matching the noise.

I also see some of these chuds making overt threats on social media, where they can be traced... platforms like Twitter and Reddit will give up their details to DoJ on request, and most of them are too stupid to cover their tracks.. or even know how.
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Old 11th August 2022, 01:40 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
They are screaming uselessly into the void. I could be wrong, but I think that unlike Jan 6, this is a relatively small number of very vocal Qnuts and MAGA mororns
I dunno, if it seems to be gaining some kind of traction, it could become mainstream GOP opinion in a week or so.
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Old 11th August 2022, 03:58 AM   #300
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Hey, everybody…

Leave Donald alone!
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Old 11th August 2022, 04:13 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I dunno, if it seems to be gaining some kind of traction, it could become mainstream GOP opinion in a week or so.
I'm waiting to see what the enemy says after the primaries are over. There are key races some of these people don't want Donald to **** up for them. I expect many will quiet down once we're full on into the general election.
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Old 11th August 2022, 04:15 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
The amount of Q-anon chuds replying to that post with various accusations of pedophilia on Stephen's part and "I remember when you used to be funny"... Clear coordination.
It doesn't even occur to them that if you have to resort to lies and photoshop in order to defend your dear leader, that maybe the problem is with him in the first place.
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Old 11th August 2022, 04:49 AM   #303
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If the DoJ asked him to add a lock and they added the lock, obviously they still retain the power to issue a warrant for the records. However, absent new details of mismanagement, I would have a problem with them raiding based on the original situation that led to the lock in the first place. That is something I would generally call "abusive".

I don't like it when those in authority say X is acceptable, but then declare X unacceptable at a latter date.

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Old 11th August 2022, 05:46 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Okay, let's take Ike as an example. . .

He was not in politics, as such, but he had experience as allied commander and in working with world leaders.

He studied and learned the trade so to speak. He surrounded himself with people he trusted and listened to. He made a "smart organization".

Trump is the opposite.

Who in the blazes thinks he can steal documents from the White House and get away with it? Wasn't there anybody there to say, "Hey, boss, you can't take those files home."?
I also think Ike was smart enough to let his political enemies go right on viewing him as a political incompetent. Trump, on the other hand, is obsessed with proving to everyone that he isn't an idiot, and is, in fact, genuinely brilliant.
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Old 11th August 2022, 05:47 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Who in the blazes thinks he can steal documents from the White House and get away with it?
Someone who spent 4 years getting away with everything, that's who.
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Old 11th August 2022, 05:50 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Someone who spent 4 76 years getting away with everything, that's who.
FTFY
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Old 11th August 2022, 05:52 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
FTFY
Touche.

But yeah we keep getting shocked that the petulant man-child who's never been held to any accountability keeps acting like he's unaccountable.

Why, from the perspective of one Donald J. Trump Esq, would he stop acting as if he can do anything and get away with it?
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Old 11th August 2022, 05:54 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
They are screaming uselessly into the void. I could be wrong, but I think that unlike Jan 6, this is a relatively small number of very vocal Qnuts and MAGA mororns

Lawrence O'Donnell made a very good point yesterday on MSNBC (I posted a video and transcript earlier) - that there seems to be a lot of noisy anger on social media, and talking heads on GQP-TV losing their minds as they collapse onto their fainting couches, but we really are not seeing the massive protest crowds turning out in support of The Fat Orange Turd.

In the lead up to January 6 we saw a similar amount of online poutrage and threats to from Qnuts and MAGA morons that we are seeing now, but the crowd turnout is not matching the noise.

I also see some of these chuds making overt threats on social media, where they can be traced... platforms like Twitter and Reddit will give up their details to DoJ on request, and most of them are too stupid to cover their tracks.. or even know how.
The people who are really dangerous are the ones who are NOT spouting off on social media. They've learned to lay low until they act. As Tuco said in The Good, The Bad and The Ugly "When it's time to shoot, don't talk."
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Old 11th August 2022, 05:55 AM   #309
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"The crazy ones are just a tiny minority" is an easier to swallow pill, but I don't think reality bears it out.
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Old 11th August 2022, 05:59 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"The crazy ones are just a tiny minority" is an easier to swallow pill, but I don't think reality bears it out.
I'm not sure they are crazy. The process of resolving cognitive dissonance is observed in people generally. It seems that is what Trump supporters are engaged in.
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Old 11th August 2022, 06:01 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
The amount of Q-anon chuds replying to that post with various accusations of pedophilia on Stephen's part and "I remember when you used to be funny"... Clear coordination.
I'm guessing they're among those who never realized that The Colbert Report was satire.
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Old 11th August 2022, 06:18 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Something Malcolm Nance explained this morning, IIUC, is that, yes, while the President can declassify documents, he still has to officially inform the relevant authorities what he has declassified, because all government documents are indexed on a register that records the date of their creation, the date that any amendments or changes were made, and who made them, and most importantly in this case, the date of any classification change and who changed it. If The Fat Orange Turd did declassify any documents, that information will be listed and dated in the document register. That is what Nance was talking about when he said procedures have to be followed.


You watch Stephanie Miller too?
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Old 11th August 2022, 06:35 AM   #313
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Remember that week or so period a couple of years back when "Process Crime" was the Trump-trolls favorite phrase?

I smell that returning. "Oh so Trump's only crime is he didn't initial some forms to declassify the documents..."
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Old 11th August 2022, 06:47 AM   #314
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I have a feeling that the classified documents Trump took to Florida were classified because they made Trump look bad. Wasn't the Ukraine phone call on some super secret white house server that would not normally be classified?

ETA: Also, to Joe Morgue's point about Trump acolytes, if these documents really were declassified, then they should be available via FOIA requests.
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Old 11th August 2022, 07:02 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
There is at least one rumor that, far from a "raid", the FBI had a very focused search warrant for particular documents and knew exactly where inside the estate they were being stored because a member of Trump's inner circle reported that information to them. If that's the case, Trump's paranoia may not be entirely baseless.
"And in a stunning turn of events, the mole turned out to be... John Barron."
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Old 11th August 2022, 07:03 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If the DoJ asked him to add a lock and they added the lock, obviously they still retain the power to issue a warrant for the records. However, absent new details of mismanagement, I would have a problem with them raiding based on the original situation that led to the lock in the first place. That is something I would generally call "abusive".

I don't like it when those in authority say X is acceptable, but then declare X unacceptable at a latter date.
The details are sketchy but ... new facts emerged between "the original situation" and the warrant.

Also, your presumption that DOJ was OK with the original situation is presumptuous.
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Old 11th August 2022, 07:05 AM   #317
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Also it's been pointed out that the FBI didn't publicize the raid. Trump is the one who ran crying to CNN.

That, like literally everything else, doesn't point to this being a political smear job.
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Old 11th August 2022, 07:05 AM   #318
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
The details are sketchy but ... new facts emerged between "the original situation" and the warrant.

Also, your presumption that DOJ was OK with the original situation is presumptuous.
If they came to an arrangement in early June that wasn't actually okay with them, then I definitely think it is abusive to renege. (again, absent new details).
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Old 11th August 2022, 07:58 AM   #319
I Am The Scum
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
And didn't he have his own folks looking over the FBI's shoulders all the time they were there?
This is likely not the case.
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Old 11th August 2022, 08:11 AM   #320
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Quote:
In early June, the sources said, four justice department officials, including the chief of counterintelligence and export control Jay Bratt, went down to Mar-a-Lago to ask about what materials Trump removed from the White House, and met with Corcoran and Bobb.

The officials asked to see where the White House records were being kept. They were shown the storage facility in the basement where the boxes had been placed, and after looking around for some time, during which Trump dropped by to say hello, the officials left.

Corcoran and Bobb continued to be in touch with the justice department in the weeks afterwards, and complied with a 8 June 2022 letter that asked the basement storage area to be secured with a lock, the sources said.
link to Guardian article

It's unclear what triggered the escalation from the article.
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