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View Poll Results: Will Trump be indicted for Federal or State crimes?
Yes 62 62.00%
No 38 38.00%
Voters: 100. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 15th September 2022, 01:17 PM   #201
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And what happens if they just ignore the law?
"they"? An entire state's legal system? It goes to the Feds. Didn't I cite a link?
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Old 15th September 2022, 01:18 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The president can't destroy documents covered in the presidential records act.
Uh, yeah. What's that's got to do with what you were replying to?
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Old 15th September 2022, 01:26 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Uh, yeah. What's that's got to do with what you were replying to?

Another example of something that "can't" be done until someone decides to do it and nobody does anything to stop them.
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Old 15th September 2022, 02:59 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
So the state that is effectively trying to protect him would have to charge him with a crime, arrest, and jail him. I don't see that as very plausible.
I wonder if a defending state could make a bogus charge, indict Trump for it, grant him bail and never bring the case to trial (and tell the extraditing state "no you can't have him until he faces trial for taping a baseball game without written consent of major league baseball. Trial is in 20 years. Or when Trump shows us his taxes. Whichever is first")

Legally it is probably bogus but the legal appeals might tie it up for a while.

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Old 15th September 2022, 03:13 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Another example of something that "can't" be done until someone decides to do it and nobody does anything to stop them.
Yep.

So I'll ask it again. What happens when the law/legal decision gets ignored.

What happens when Trump and the Republican Party yet again just goes "Make me."
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Old 15th September 2022, 03:41 PM   #206
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Why wouldn't the defending state just like decline to enforce the extradition request? Both the states and the federal government frequently decline to enforce stuff. What's Georgia going to do? Hire bounty hunters?
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Old 15th September 2022, 03:55 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why wouldn't the defending state just like decline to enforce the extradition request? Both the states and the federal government frequently decline to enforce stuff. What's Georgia going to do? Hire bounty hunters?
Would the Feds send in federal marshalls to collect the perpetrator?
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Old 15th September 2022, 11:37 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
Would the Feds send in federal marshalls to collect the perpetrator?
They could as it would be breaking

Quote:
The Extradition Clause in the US Constitution requires states, upon demand of another state, to deliver a fugitive from justice who has committed a "treason, felony or other crime" to the state from which the fugitive has fled.

18 U.S.C. § 3182 sets the process by which an executive of a state, district, or territory of the United States must arrest and turn over a fugitive from another state, district, or territory.
The SC ruled in Puerto Rico v. Branstad (1987),that states must comply with extradition (rendition) requests.

Under the Uniform Criminal Extradition Act:

Quote:
Sec. 54-158. Governor's duty to arrest and deliver up fugitive. Subject to the provisions of this chapter, the provisions of the Constitution of the United States controlling, and any and all acts of Congress enacted in pursuance thereof, it is the duty of the Governor of this state to have arrested and delivered up to the executive authority of any other state of the United States any person charged in that state with treason, felony or other crime, who has fled from justice and is found in this state.
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Old 16th September 2022, 03:36 AM   #209
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Texas and Florida say: Yeah? Well...MAKE ME! *snicker*
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Old 16th September 2022, 12:13 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Texas and Florida say: Yeah? Well...MAKE ME! *snicker*
The Feds might have something to say about that.
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Old 16th September 2022, 12:42 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The Feds might have something to say about that.
Then again, they might not. State and federal governments decline to enforce things all the time.
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Old 16th September 2022, 12:48 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
Would the Feds send in federal marshalls to collect the perpetrator?
I don't know. Would they?

I mean, we're talking about a very extreme and unlikely situation to begin with. We're stipulating the plausibility of the base scenario, right?

So I figure it would have to take place in a political climate where the governor of the sanctuary state thought they could get away with it, or thought they could gain a political advantage from whatever confrontation emerged. And so I think we'd have to consider the possibility that in such a political climate, "the feds" would see a political downside in forcing a confrontation.

I suppose one of the more technical questions is whether, if the governor of the state drags his heels on enforcing that constitutional provision, does this actually give the federal government the jurisdiction to arrest someone who has not been charged with a federal crime.
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Old 16th September 2022, 01:19 PM   #213
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Trump is a legend in his own mind. He thinks more than a couple of people will actually present arms and fight for him.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/16/polit...ted/index.html

Quote:
Hewitt: You know the old saying. A prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich if they want to. I'm just asking if there is such a prosecutor and they indict you, would that deter you from running for president again?

Trump: I don't think the people of the United States would stand for it. And as you know, if a thing like that happened, I would have no prohibition against running. You know that. You've already stated that.
Quote:
Hewitt: I do. That's what I wanted people to understand. That would not take you out of the arena.

Trump: It would not. But I think if it happened, I think you'd have problems in this country the likes of which perhaps we've never seen before. I don't think the people of the United States would stand for it.
Trump imagines that his "army", who has so far proven to be mostly over-weight paper tigers, will make a difference? Yeah, there will most certainly be isolated incidents, but the feds are not likely to back down when it comes time to put the cuffs on.

I think Trump's best bet is to decide which country to flee to that does not have an extradition treaty with the US.
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Old 16th September 2022, 01:33 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't know. Would they?

I mean, we're talking about a very extreme and unlikely situation to begin with. We're stipulating the plausibility of the base scenario, right?

So I figure it would have to take place in a political climate where the governor of the sanctuary state thought they could get away with it, or thought they could gain a political advantage from whatever confrontation emerged. And so I think we'd have to consider the possibility that in such a political climate, "the feds" would see a political downside in forcing a confrontation.

I suppose one of the more technical questions is whether, if the governor of the state drags his heels on enforcing that constitutional provision, does this actually give the federal government the jurisdiction to arrest someone who has not been charged with a federal crime.
I think they could arrest the governor who was refusing to extradite because s/he would be breaking federal law 18 U.S.C. § 3182.
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Old 16th September 2022, 01:41 PM   #215
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Don't the Feds have the ability to arrest anyone in any state? They don't need the state to arrest Trump for them do they?

The only way the state could refuse extradition is if Trump was in state custody, no? Either way, he would be sitting in a cell.
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Old 16th September 2022, 01:45 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Don't the Feds have the ability to arrest anyone in any state? They don't need the state to arrest Trump for them do they?

The only way the state could refuse extradition is if Trump was in state custody, no? Either way, he would be sitting in a cell.
I was considering the scenario where one state charged Trump with a felony, and then expected the governor of another state to promptly extradite him as the constitution requires.

Obviously the question of federal jurisdiction and arrest authority is moot if Trump is charged with a federal crime. It's only a question if we're hoping the feds will step in on, say, Georgia's behalf if, say, Florida won't extradite when Georgia charges him.
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Old 16th September 2022, 01:47 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I think they could arrest the governor who was refusing to extradite because s/he would be breaking federal law 18 U.S.C. § 3182.
Which would be a whole 'nother can of worms on top of the can of worms that is the question of feds executing interstate extradition. The way I read the constitutional clause in question, it seems like it's the harboring state that has arrest and extradition authority, not the federal government.
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Old 16th September 2022, 01:49 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Trump is a legend in his own mind. He thinks more than a couple of people will actually present arms and fight for him.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/16/polit...ted/index.html





Trump imagines that his "army", who has so far proven to be mostly over-weight paper tigers, will make a difference? Yeah, there will most certainly be isolated incidents, but the feds are not likely to back down when it comes time to put the cuffs on.

I think Trump's best bet is to decide which country to flee to that does not have an extradition treaty with the US.
I think the actual hard core Trump suporters are a tiny fraction of the U.S. population. A noisey, annoying tiny fraction, but a small fraction nonetheless. I think if the few tried to rise up, when they turn and realize the masses they expected behind them fail to materialize, they'll slink quietly back to their basement computers, where they'll rant and rave about the injustice of it all, and the if onlys ...
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Old 16th September 2022, 02:08 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Which would be a whole 'nother can of worms on top of the can of worms that is the question of feds executing interstate extradition. The way I read the constitutional clause in question, it seems like it's the harboring state that has arrest and extradition authority, not the federal government.
More research found this:
Quote:
Having so defined a governor's obligation, however, the Supreme Court further emphasized that neither the Extradition Clause nor the federal legislation implementing it contained any procedure whereby a governor's extradition duty might be judicially compelled. (Id., at pp. 107-110 [16 L.Ed. at pp. 729-730].) As Dennison carefully explained, "The performance of this duty ... is left to depend on the fidelity of the state executive to the compact entered into with the other states when it adopted the Constitution of the United States, and became a member of the Union. ... [¶] [i]f the governor ... refuses to discharge this duty, there is no power delegated to the general government, either through the judicial department or any other department, to use any coercive means to compel him." (Id., at pp. 109-110 [16 L.Ed. at p. 730], italics added.)

Subsequently, in Taylor v. Taintor (1872) 83 U.S. (16 Wall.) 366, 370 [21 L. Ed. 287, 290], the high tribunal reaffirmed Dennison, acknowledging very explicitly that "If [the Governor] refuse [to extradite a fugitive], there is no means of compulsion." (Italics added.)
From this, I would take it that you are likely correct.
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Old 16th September 2022, 02:26 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
So the state that is effectively trying to protect him would have to charge him with a crime, arrest, and jail him. I don't see that as very plausible.
what state? what crime?
The FBI can arrest in any state for a federal crime.
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Old 16th September 2022, 03:04 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
what state? what crime?

The FBI can arrest in any state for a federal crime.
Yes but the problem is some of the investigations involving Trump (Georgia election interference, NY financial crimes) are state crimes, not federal.

The concern is that (for example) Georgia will indict him for state crimes, so the feds don't get involved, and Deathsantis refuses to extradite him from Florida.

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Old 16th September 2022, 03:08 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
what state? what crime?
The FBI can arrest in any state for a federal crime.
Federal crime, yes. State crime, no. So if GA decides to indict on their state crime of election interference, then I don't think so.
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Old 16th September 2022, 06:12 PM   #223
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A lot of people still don't seem to understand that the US is not a monolithic state, subdivided into administrative districts of the central government.

You'd think that people familiar with the situation of England and Scotland in the United Kingdom would at least grasp the concept. And you'd think anyone who understood the EU would understand immediately.

If England chooses not to execute Sweden's red notice, does Sweden have any recourse to go into the UK and snatch their culprit? Does Brussels?
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Old 16th September 2022, 11:49 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Trump is a legend in his own mind. He thinks more than a couple of people will actually present arms and fight for him.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/16/polit...ted/index.html





Trump imagines that his "army", who has so far proven to be mostly over-weight paper tigers, will make a difference? Yeah, there will most certainly be isolated incidents, but the feds are not likely to back down when it comes time to put the cuffs on.

I think Trump's best bet is to decide which country to flee to that does not have an extradition treaty with the US.
We are of like mind on this. And I would not mind betting the brains-trust behind The Donald (because he runs on his reptilian core only) have done the Trivago research already, and are even now extending quiet queries to potential bolt-hole countries.
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Old 16th September 2022, 11:51 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A lot of people still don't seem to understand that the US is not a monolithic state, subdivided into administrative districts of the central government.

You'd think that people familiar with the situation of England and Scotland in the United Kingdom would at least grasp the concept. And you'd think anyone who understood the EU would understand immediately.

If England chooses not to execute Sweden's red notice, does Sweden have any recourse to go into the UK and snatch their culprit? Does Brussels?
Yes they could.

I give you: Adolf Eichmann.
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Old 16th September 2022, 11:53 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A lot of people still don't seem to understand that the US is not a monolithic state, subdivided into administrative districts of the central government.

You'd think that people familiar with the situation of England and Scotland in the United Kingdom would at least grasp the concept. And you'd think anyone who understood the EU would understand immediately.

If England chooses not to execute Sweden's red notice, does Sweden have any recourse to go into the UK and snatch their culprit? Does Brussels?
States are not separate and independent countries.
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Old 17th September 2022, 12:25 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
States are not separate and independent countries.
Everything is quantum...are you not aware of the Repub Uncertainty Principle. An entity can exist as both states and countries until it collapses into one or the other to suit the needs of a Repub talking point.

Note it down for future reference.
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Old 17th September 2022, 05:43 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Yes they could.

I give you: Adolf Eichmann.
I don't know what that means.
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Old 17th September 2022, 05:45 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
States are not separate and independent countries.
The US arrangement shares some important similarities with the EU that a lot of people seem to overlook or misunderstand.
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Old 17th September 2022, 07:04 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If England chooses not to execute Sweden's red notice, does Sweden have any recourse to go into the UK and snatch their culprit? Does Brussels?
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Yes they could.

I give you: Adolf Eichmann.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't know what that means.
Ignorance of history often prevents people from understanding elliptical references to historical precedents.

Adolf Eichmann thought he would be safe in Argentina, which "had a history of turning down extradition requests for Nazi criminals" [1]. So Israel sent a team of Mossad and Shin Bet agents to kidnap Eichmann and take him to Israel, where he was tried and executed.

Norman Alexander is suggesting Sweden or Brussels would have a similar recourse if England were to choose not to act upon a red notice.

[1] Wikipedia article on Adolf Eichmann.
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Old 17th September 2022, 07:12 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by W.D.Clinger View Post
Ignorance of history often prevents people from understanding elliptical references to historical precedents.

Adolf Eichmann thought he would be safe in Argentina, which "had a history of turning down extradition requests for Nazi criminals" [1]. So Israel sent a team of Mossad and Shin Bet agents to kidnap Eichmann and take him to Israel, where he was tried and executed.

Norman Alexander is suggesting Sweden or Brussels would have a similar recourse if England were to choose not to act upon a red notice.

[1] Wikipedia article on Adolf Eichmann.
So you're talking about the kind of extrajudicial rendition that nation-states perpetrate on each other from time to time, sometimes clandestinely, sometimes with the tacit approval of the "host" nation.

Which is exactly my point. The relationship between Georgia and Florida in this scenario is more akin to the relationship between England and Sweden in the EU (or Israel and Argentina in the global community). There is no central authority with the jurisdiction to arrest people in one country on charges brought in another country. Just countries sending bounty hunters when sufficiently motivated.

The feds can't arrest Trump in Florida for crimes he's been charged with in Georgia, because the US isn't that kind of arrangement. This is something a lot of people still don't seem to understand.
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Old 17th September 2022, 08:05 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So you're talking about the kind of extrajudicial rendition that nation-states perpetrate on each other from time to time, sometimes clandestinely, sometimes with the tacit approval of the "host" nation.
That's what Norman Alexander was talking about.

My contribution was limited to explaining Norman Alexander's comment to someone who didn't know how Adolf Eichmann came to be transported from Argentina to Israel.
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Old 17th September 2022, 08:28 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by W.D.Clinger View Post
That's what Norman Alexander was talking about.

My contribution was limited to explaining Norman Alexander's comment to someone who didn't know how Adolf Eichmann came to be transported from Argentina to Israel.
You mansplained Adolf Eichmann, which was unnecessary. I wanted the argument - NA's reasoning and conclusion from the premise of Adolf Eichmann. Or yours, as the case might be.

You seem to be under the impression it was an opportunity to attack me personally, rather than an opportunity to construct a rational argument from premises.
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Old 17th September 2022, 09:58 AM   #234
W.D.Clinger
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You mansplained Adolf Eichmann, which was unnecessary. I wanted the argument - NA's reasoning and conclusion from the premise of Adolf Eichmann. Or yours, as the case might be.
Adolf Eichmann was an example, not a premise. I explained the reference you said you hadn't understood.

Thank you for clarifying that what you wanted was an argument, not an explanation.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You seem to be under the impression it was an opportunity to attack me personally, rather than an opportunity to construct a rational argument from premises.

I apologize for declining this opportunity to construct an argument you might or might not consider to be rational, but life is too short for me to take advantage of every opportunity for argument that presents itself.

Last edited by W.D.Clinger; 17th September 2022 at 10:01 AM.
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Old 17th September 2022, 11:33 AM   #235
arayder
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So I figure it would have to take place in a political climate where the governor of the sanctuary state thought they could get away with it, or thought they could gain a political advantage from whatever confrontation emerged. And so I think we'd have to consider the possibility that in such a political climate, "the feds" would see a political downside in forcing a confrontation.
That's pretty much the scenario I envisioned in my original question.

Thinking more about it It seems to me the state in the end wouldn't be able to keep the feds at bay (in the case of a federal indictment).

But it might work out good for DeSantis anyway. He threatens to keep the feds out of Florida when they come for Trump at Mar-a-Lago and although he eventually backs down he makes enough of a stink to keep the MAGA boys happy.

But the feds get DJT anyway and the ensuing arrest and trial make Trump un-electable. . .clearing the way for Desantis.
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Old 17th September 2022, 02:04 PM   #236
Norman Alexander
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So you're talking about the kind of extrajudicial rendition that nation-states perpetrate on each other from time to time, sometimes clandestinely, sometimes with the tacit approval of the "host" nation.

Which is exactly my point. The relationship between Georgia and Florida in this scenario is more akin to the relationship between England and Sweden in the EU (or Israel and Argentina in the global community). There is no central authority with the jurisdiction to arrest people in one country on charges brought in another country. Just countries sending bounty hunters when sufficiently motivated.

The feds can't arrest Trump in Florida for crimes he's been charged with in Georgia, because the US isn't that kind of arrangement. This is something a lot of people still don't seem to understand.
If charged with a federal crime, surely they can. The FBI raided Mar-a-Lago legally, and that was not even an arrest.

Also, the Eichmann scenario is simply a parallel example of the GQP's attitude of "It's legal until we say it isn't, so just try and stop us."
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Last edited by Norman Alexander; 17th September 2022 at 02:05 PM.
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