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Old 24th August 2022, 01:35 PM   #161
Warp12
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
So the non-persona should be able to tell us exactly what "off-the-rails' educational practices you think we need to talk about.

Why engage in this folly, when I already said I am not going to debate individual subject matters?

First, such would be struck as derails because individual topics already exist. Second, the fundamental issue here is with the policies of DeSantis, which revolve around a general concept of preventing the sort of irresponsible teaching that we supposedly agree should be avoided.

I am content that most of us agree that there are irresponsible teachers on both sides of the fence, that this should be avoided, and that curricula should be well-regulated.

After that it is just the never-ending debate of liberal and conservative values.
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Old 24th August 2022, 01:40 PM   #162
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See?

He literally can't do it. He doesn't any actual arguments to make.
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Old 24th August 2022, 01:49 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
This is "woke" education and wrong in the views of Republicans.
Also true regarding Native Americans, and pretty much anyone else less prone to sunburn than white people.
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Old 24th August 2022, 01:53 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
The above is practically a personal attack, suggesting that I am misrepresenting myself as being a conservative. Essentially you are calling me a liar.

Conservatives are real, you know. And they are not mostly the demonized group as depicted by resident libs. Most are very decent people that just don't ascribe to a liberal view of the world.
I'm definitely calling you a liar about your "freakish liberal ideals and beliefs being pressed on children".
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Old 24th August 2022, 02:00 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
See?

He literally can't do it. He doesn't have any actual arguments to make.
It's like the chunky kid on the playground making excuse after excuse for not demonstrating the six foot vertical telescoping roundhouse kick that he still insists he is fully capable of. Everyone knows he can't. It's just a question of whether he'll admit he can't
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Old 24th August 2022, 02:13 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Why engage in this folly, when I already said I am not going to debate individual subject matters?
Fair enough, your choice.

Quote:
First, such would be struck as derails because individual topics already exist.
Not sure about that. It all falls under the umbrella of education, which after all is supposed to be about teaching students about reality. The issue is that there are many aspects of reality with which conservatives are unhappy -- it doesn't conform with the Bible, it's something they find embarrassing, etc. -- so they want to throw the blanket of "liberal bias" over those topics and remove them from the curriculum.

Quote:
Second, the fundamental issue here is with the policies of DeSantis, which revolve around a general concept of preventing the sort of irresponsible teaching that we supposedly agree should be avoided.
Here is the disconnect. DeSantis isn't trying to remove "irresponsible teaching" from schools. He claims he is, but that's a lie. What he's really trying to do is prevent kids from learning things that he doesn't want them to, because it would make them more knowledgeable and able to think critically, and therefore less likely to vote for him and his party. It really isn't any more complicated than that.

Quote:
I am content that most of us agree that there are irresponsible teachers on both sides of the fence...
Agreed.

Quote:
...that this should be avoided...
Probably impossible as long as teachers are humans. Besides, I'm not sure it's necessarily a bad thing if the biases more or less cancel themselves out. And in any case, there's very strong indication that conservative bias has had a far more profound impact on education than liberal -- I cited several examples in my previous posts.

Quote:
...and that curricula should be well-regulated.
This is the scary and dangerous part. Well-regulated by whom, politicians who have no training in education, and whose ultimate agenda is not to eliminate bias but rather to prevent students from learning about a wide variety of subjects simply because they wish reality were different?

Quote:
After that it is just the never-ending debate of liberal and conservative values.
This is the most disingenuous statement of all. It's not about liberal vs conservative, it's about reality vs fantasy. I'm sure DeSantis would love to have people believe it's about ideology, to get people to believe it's simply a political issue rather than what it really is, which is government-enforced ignorance.
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Old 24th August 2022, 02:20 PM   #167
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There seems to be a misconception among conservatives that teaching certain facts means the teacher LIKES those facts and is PROUD of those facts. The corollary of that is multiple:
-- That facts can be judged to be "good" or "bad" on a political spectrum.
-- That the teaching of "bad" facts can be assigned to that end of a political spectrum denigrated or hated by the receiver.
-- That "bad" facts can then be ignored and dismissed.
-- That "bad" facts should NOT be taught to children.
-- That teachers and proponents of "bad" facts are automatically proponents of the receiver's hated end of the political spectrum.
-- That "good" facts can be made up whenever convenient without evidence or proof and still be considered valid.
-- That "good" facts, real or imaginary, possess almost religious righteousness, are unassailable, and are the sole property of the receiver's end of the political spectrum.

Just watch DeSantis and his ilk.
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Old 24th August 2022, 02:22 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Why engage in this folly, when I already said I am not going to debate individual subject matters?
Just give us some concrete examples that establish a pattern of "freakish liberal ideals and beliefs being pressed on children" by public school teachers.

Quote:
First, such would be struck as derails because individual topics already exist. Second, the fundamental issue here is with the policies of DeSantis, which revolve around a general concept of preventing the sort of irresponsible teaching that we supposedly agree should be avoided.
First, no it wouldn't. You just can't provide any concrete examples.

Second, DeSantis hasn't provided any more evidence than you've been able to provide. He's a blowhard inventing a boogeyman to tell the rubes only he can save them from.

Quote:
I am content that most of us agree that there are irresponsible teachers on both sides of the fence, that this should be avoided, and that curricula should be well-regulated.
Remember that analogy about a prosecutor asking the jurors to look inside their hearts to see that the defendant is guilty after failing to provide any evidence against him? The above is like that same prosecutor acting like he's just presented an airtight case by asking the jury if they agree that criminals should be punished.

Quote:
After that it is just the never-ending debate of liberal and conservative values.
It's like watching the world's worst slight-of-hand illusionist clumsily put a ping pong ball into his mouth and then show his empty hands to the audience while mumbling an incomprehensible attempt a "voilŗ!".
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Old 24th August 2022, 02:25 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
First, no it wouldn't. You just can't provide any concrete examples that fit my liberal world-view.

FTFY. And 100% correct.
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Old 24th August 2022, 02:26 PM   #170
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Many years, no, decades ago, when I still watched television (PBS only; and I don't care if you belive me or not), I saw a panel show that included Wm. F. Buckley. At the end, the panelists were asked to sum up their positions in 30 seconds. They all did so capably, except for

Yes, of course, Bill Buckley, who refused right snottily, declaring that more than 30 seconds of thought went into His Views, so you can just wait for awed comprehension to dawn on you. Smirk.

The same tactic and ones resembling it are in use today, but I'll be damned if I can ever find anybody but a right-wing buffed hole

excuse me, a conservative trying it on. In MAGAnese, it goes, "If I gotta asplain it, you woon't unnerstand it any ways."

I attribute that behavior to fright. Hope you don't think I'm cynical.
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Old 24th August 2022, 02:35 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
There seems to be a misconception among conservatives that teaching certain facts means the teacher LIKES those facts and is PROUD of those facts. The corollary of that is multiple:
-- That facts can be judged to be "good" or "bad" on a political spectrum.
-- That the teaching of "bad" facts can be assigned to that end of a political spectrum denigrated or hated by the receiver.
-- That "bad" facts can then be ignored and dismissed.
-- That "bad" facts should NOT be taught to children.
-- That teachers and proponents of "bad" facts are automatically proponents of the receiver's hated end of the political spectrum.
-- That "good" facts can be made up whenever convenient without evidence or proof and still be considered valid.
-- That "good" facts, real or imaginary, possess almost religious righteousness, are unassailable, and are the sole property of the receiver's end of the political spectrum.

Just watch DeSantis and his ilk.
This is pretty much it in a nutshell. Just look at the topics conservatives seem to define as the products of liberal bias and wish to suppress: America's racist history, sexuality outside straight male/female roles, science such as evolution and climate change. And yet nothing can alter the facts that the USA does indeed have a checkered history vis a vis racism, sexuality exists in many different flavors, evolution is 100% supported and understood, and the reality of climate change is beyond reasonable dispute. Those all are facts, but because conservatives wish they weren't true, they're trying to keep children from learning them.

And what has conservative bias attempted to drag into the classroom? Pseudoscience such as creationism, revisionist history such as a states-rights re-imagining of the Civil War, Christian values and beliefs, and (worst of all) enforced willful ignorance.

There's nothing balanced about this, no "both sides are guilty" argument to be made. Conservatives are the enemy of education, because an educated electorate is simply not in their best interest.
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Old 24th August 2022, 03:08 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
FTFY. And 100% correct.
Come on, Warp. Can't you do better than that? You've been challenged to provide evidence that fits your claims. If you could have, you would have by now. You're just trying to distract readers from the obvious conclusion that your argument is intellectually bankrupt - a knee-jerk reaction with no reasoning behind it, existing only to shore up your prejudices regarding social changes.

"I'd show you but it wouldn't make any difference" is on the woo-woo BINGO card, for ****'s sake.
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Old 24th August 2022, 03:13 PM   #173
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Old 24th August 2022, 03:14 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Come on, Warp. Can't you do better than that? You've been challenged to provide evidence that fits your claims. If you could have, you would have by now. You're just trying to distract readers from the obvious conclusion that your argument is intellectually bankrupt - a knee-jerk reaction with no reasoning behind it, existing only to shore up your prejudices regarding social changes.

"I'd show you but it wouldn't make any difference" is on the woo-woo BINGO card, for ****'s sake.

Wrong.

I'm just not interested in once again listening to liberals whine about slavery, conquered Indians, evolution and transgenders...I've been through it too many times.
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Old 24th August 2022, 03:23 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
So the non-persona should be able to tell us exactly what "off-the-rails' educational practices you think we need to talk about.
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Why engage in this folly, when I already said I am not going to debate individual subject matters?

. . . most of us agree that there are irresponsible teachers on both sides of the fence, that this should be avoided, and that curricula should be well-regulated.
So in a "well regulated" educational system necessary to educated our youth what "off-the-rails' educational practices you think we need to talk about?

I have lost track of how many times you have been asked this.
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Old 24th August 2022, 04:31 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Why engage in this folly, when I already said I am not going to debate individual subject matters?

First, such would be struck as derails because individual topics already exist. Second, the fundamental issue here is with the policies of DeSantis, which revolve around a general concept of preventing the sort of irresponsible teaching that we supposedly agree should be avoided.

I am content that most of us agree that there are irresponsible teachers on both sides of the fence, that this should be avoided, and that curricula should be well-regulated.

After that it is just the never-ending debate of liberal and conservative values.
You keep on avoding giving specific examples of "irresponsible teaching". I wonder why.....
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Old 24th August 2022, 05:04 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Wrong.

I'm just not interested in once again listening to liberals whine about slavery, conquered Indians, evolution and transgenders...I've been through it too many times.
"Later, at home, Warp stood alone in his room. He closed his eyes and took a deep breath, holding it for several seconds before slowly releasing it through his nose in a cleansing exhalation. His focus established, he opened his eyes and fixed his steely gaze on the battered tennis ball suspended from the ceiling a full six feet above the floor. It was nearly a foot over the top of his head. He looked briefly as though his attention had shifted to some internal subject, but a moment later, with no warning, no telegraph of impending action, he exploded into violent, yet precise and fluid motion. Launching himself vertically to an extraordinary height, he spun swiftly around his Y axis and his right foot collided with the tennis ball with such force as to break the cord suspending it in place, and causing it to strike the wall with enough velocity to bounce back and thud into the closed door on the opposite wall before arcing down to the floor and rolling under his bed. The sudden commotion was over as swiftly as it had begun, and he came to rest standing as calmly as he had been a moment earlier. From somewhere, a flourish played on a wooden flute. In his mind he heard the voices of the other kids dismissing his claims, and simply smiled to himself."

We all totally believe that you've got lots of examples of freakish liberal ideals and beliefs being pressed on children by public school teachers. We also totally believe that you can't be bothered to show it to us because we'll just whine about slavery and genocide being bad. Oh, and about biology, apparently. Nobody thinks your argument is a joke.
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Old 24th August 2022, 05:06 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Wrong.

I'm just not interested in once again listening to liberals whine about slavery, conquered Indians, evolution and transgenders...I've been through it too many times.
SO you are just sticking your fingers in your ears and going "I DON"T HEAR YOU very loud.
Nice.
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Old 24th August 2022, 05:07 PM   #179
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I am begginning to think we are being trolled, folks.
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Old 24th August 2022, 05:08 PM   #180
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So in Warp12 view, schools should be allowed to throw out scientific facts and put fairy tales in their place?
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Old 24th August 2022, 05:10 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'm sure there's some of that behind it, but there's also just a lot of people who cannot grasp the concept of critical thinking: they think to talk about something is to endorse it. They can't understand the difference between teaching children what something is and persuading children that thing is good. Like teaching what various religions believe is inseparable from proselytizing. Intellectual rigor is not widespread.
But intellectual rigor-mortis is.
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Old 24th August 2022, 05:19 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
"Later, at home, Warp stood alone in his room. He closed his eyes and took a deep breath, holding it for several seconds before slowly releasing it through his nose in a cleansing exhalation. His focus established, he opened his eyes and fixed his steely gaze on the battered tennis ball suspended from the ceiling a full six feet above the floor. It was nearly a foot over the top of his head. He looked briefly as though his attention had shifted to some internal subject, but a moment later, with no warning, no telegraph of impending action, he exploded into violent, yet precise and fluid motion. Launching himself vertically to an extraordinary height, he spun swiftly around his Y axis and his right foot collided with the tennis ball with such force as to break the cord suspending it in place, and causing it to strike the wall with enough velocity to bounce back and thud into the closed door on the opposite wall before arcing down to the floor and rolling under his bed. The sudden commotion was over as swiftly as it had begun, and he came to rest standing as calmly as he had been a moment earlier. From somewhere, a flourish played on a wooden flute. In his mind he heard the voices of the other kids dismissing his claims, and simply smiled to himself."

I'd like to think that the above is somehow against the MA...but it is probably just some loophole I need to master.
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Old 24th August 2022, 05:23 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
So in Warp12 view, schools should be allowed to throw out scientific facts and put fairy tales in their place?

Oh isn't that the crux...what are facts and what are fairy tales?

I bet we disagree on some of those points.

But at least we can all agree that teachers and education need oversight. It mostly seems to upset people just when their side of the argument gets contained.
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Old 24th August 2022, 05:37 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I'd like to think that the above is somehow against the MA...but it is probably just some loophole I need to master.
You wouldn't be subject to this sort of comic ridicule if you'd argue your argument straight up.

You have been asked countless times to show us where public schools are engaging in "off-the-rails" instructional practices.

As close as you can get to an answer is to feign impartially by saying liberals and conservative teachers in school systems go off the rails with some sort of equal regularity.

Oh, please. . .

This may come as a surprise to you but state departments of education and local school systems have highly detailed curricula in which courses of study presented to children are explicitly detailed.

You should be able, by doing your own research, to find the truth about the liberal conspiracy you infer.
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Old 24th August 2022, 05:43 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You keep on avoding giving specific examples of "irresponsible teaching". I wonder why.....
Post 174 is all I need in that respect.
It's exactly the way an old conservative friend of mine would, and does, reply.
The content is stated but with some plausible deniability of reactionary views.
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Old 24th August 2022, 05:45 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Oh isn't that the crux...what are facts and what are fairy tales?

I bet we disagree on some of those points.

But at least we can all agree that teachers and education need oversight. It mostly seems to upset people just when their side of the argument gets contained.
So when did you last attend a school board meeting? Or view one on line?

States and local school boards set and review curriculum standards on a frequent basis.

Can you find these reviews on line? Do you need some help finding them?
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Old 24th August 2022, 06:18 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
As many times as it has backfired you'd think politicians would stop posing in military vehicles for campaign ads.
Iíll wager George H. W. Bush, an actual combat pilot, never felt the need to cosplay for votes.

RINO.
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Old 24th August 2022, 06:59 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am begginning to think we are being trolled, folks.
Perhaps, but I think it's more that, when it comes to defending DeSantis and his ilk, there's simply no there there. Reality itself is against them, so they need to speak in vague generalities and misdirection because they don't have facts at their disposal. When conversing among themselves they don't need any of course, since they don't challenge each other. Or in their more honest moments, they'll admit what this is really about, an attempt to prevent children from learning anything they don't want them to know.

Of course none of that works when they dare to venture outside their like-minded little circle. Unfortunately for them, here in the ISF they can't apply their usual go-to moves, otherwise we'd all have been called pedo enablers and cucks by now. So instead...silence.
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Old 24th August 2022, 07:11 PM   #189
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Eventually the "I owned the libs" fantasy gets matched up against reality.

DeSantis can cosplay as a jet fighter pilot or find 20 people who committed voter fraud and pretend he's Trump 2.0, but in the end he's gotta' get the job done for the people of Florida.

Trolls can play debate games, but eventually question at hand gets asked.

Last edited by arayder; 24th August 2022 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 24th August 2022, 07:13 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
As many times as it has backfired you'd think politicians would stop posing in military vehicles for campaign ads.
Let's see
Dukakis...disaster..Except the image of him in a tank wasn't used in a pro Dukakis ad but used by his opposition in an attack ad.

Who else are you thinking of?
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Old 24th August 2022, 07:27 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Oh isn't that the crux...what are facts and what are fairy tales?

I bet we disagree on some of those points.

But at least we can all agree that teachers and education need oversight. It mostly seems to upset people just when their side of the argument gets contained.
What does this have to do with what Ron DeSantis is doing to public education in Florida? Why are you defending his injection of "off the rails" nonsense into the curriculum?
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Old 24th August 2022, 07:45 PM   #192
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It's simple.

A couple of years ago some disingenuous political strategists realized there was such and thing as Critical Race Theory and recognizing that it was abhorrent to their fellow conservatives decided to pretend it was being shoved down the throats of grade schoolers.

When these folks figured out that their conspiracy theory didn't hold water they decided to tact a few degrees and pretend teachers were saying bad things about their student's great, great, great granddaddies.

But eventually they got wise to the fact that kids wouldn't come home crying about how "grandpa was a racist" because they'd never been so taught. . .so they decided they'd comb through school libraries for books that didn't pass ultra-conservative muster.

And BINGO. .. they went from political hacks to book burners in three easy steps.

Last edited by arayder; 24th August 2022 at 07:54 PM.
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Old 24th August 2022, 07:50 PM   #193
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They have no idea what CRT is, nor can they explain why, but they are agin' it!


Btw, I'm old enough to know that CRT used to stand for "cathode ray tube". And at first I wondered why this gits were getting so het up about oscilloscopes.
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Old 24th August 2022, 08:10 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
They have no idea what CRT is, nor can they explain why, but they are agin' it!


Btw, I'm old enough to know that CRT used to stand for "cathode ray tube". And at first I wondered why this gits were getting so het up about oscilloscopes.
THIS, I do not have a high opinion of Critical Race Theory..the real thing. but these fools do not have the slightest idea of what it is.
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Old 24th August 2022, 08:32 PM   #195
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No idea what it is that has him so terrified: "I don't understand it that much, but what little I know I don't care for."
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A real discussion on CRT.
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Old 24th August 2022, 11:11 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Eventually the "I owned the libs" fantasy gets matched up against reality.

DeSantis can cosplay as a jet fighter pilot or find 20 people who committed voter fraud and pretend he's Trump 2.0, but in the end he's gotta' get the job done for the people of Florida.

Trolls can play debate games, but eventually question at hand gets asked.
If enough people think that his job is "trolling da libz" then he's doing it. IMO one of the purposes of that advert it to convince them of that.
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Old 25th August 2022, 12:11 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Another personal attack, certain to go unnoticed.
Victim?
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Old 25th August 2022, 12:15 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Victim?
Well, the forum admin has often provided validation for this victimhood.
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Old 25th August 2022, 12:25 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Wrong.

I'm just not interested in once again listening to liberals whine about slavery, conquered Indians, evolution and transgenders...I've been through it too many times.
And yet, here you are yet again making claims that you refuse to support with evidence despite being asked to do so repeatedly and then claiming to be personally attacked...which will go unnoticed.

Here, have some Gouda.
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Old 25th August 2022, 12:26 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
"Later, at home, Warp stood alone in his room. He closed his eyes and took a deep breath, holding it for several seconds before slowly releasing it through his nose in a cleansing exhalation. His focus established, he opened his eyes and fixed his steely gaze on the battered tennis ball suspended from the ceiling a full six feet above the floor. It was nearly a foot over the top of his head. He looked briefly as though his attention had shifted to some internal subject, but a moment later, with no warning, no telegraph of impending action, he exploded into violent, yet precise and fluid motion. Launching himself vertically to an extraordinary height, he spun swiftly around his Y axis and his right foot collided with the tennis ball with such force as to break the cord suspending it in place, and causing it to strike the wall with enough velocity to bounce back and thud into the closed door on the opposite wall before arcing down to the floor and rolling under his bed. The sudden commotion was over as swiftly as it had begun, and he came to rest standing as calmly as he had been a moment earlier. From somewhere, a flourish played on a wooden flute. In his mind he heard the voices of the other kids dismissing his claims, and simply smiled to himself."

We all totally believe that you've got lots of examples of freakish liberal ideals and beliefs being pressed on children by public school teachers. We also totally believe that you can't be bothered to show it to us because we'll just whine about slavery and genocide being bad. Oh, and about biology, apparently. Nobody thinks your argument is a joke.
Brilliant.
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