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Old 25th August 2022, 12:27 AM   #201
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am begginning to think we are being trolled, folks.
Beginning?
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Old 25th August 2022, 05:32 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
The above is practically a personal attack, suggesting that I am misrepresenting myself as being a conservative. Essentially you are calling me a liar.
Awww poor little snowflake, so fragile and special they need everyone to lie and tell them their fantasy world really exists...

It doesn't matter if it offends you, the world is what it is and the truth won't change because your feelings are hurt.

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Conservatives are real,
Are they? Maybe there are some Conservatives in the Democratic party but Republicans are not Conservatives. Republicans have gone off the rails long ago and are their own thing entirely now. They no longer have any real principles other than to do what they are told believe what they are told regardless of whether what they are told is true.

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
And they are not mostly the demonized group as depicted by resident libs. Most are very decent people that just don't ascribe to a liberal view of the world.
What you are calling a "liberal view of the world" is simply the acceptance of objective fact. It's not "the liberals" fault" Republicans can no longer do this and get hurt feelings whenever facts are discussed.
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Old 25th August 2022, 06:27 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
...DeSantis hasn't provided any more evidence than you've been able to provide. He's a blowhard inventing a boogeyman to tell the rubes only he can save them from."...
The real problem with what DeSantis does is that it often works. Propaganda can be very effective.

Though not related to DeSantis, or even US politics, I can think of no better example of the effectiveness of disinformation than stories I've recently read in the news about Ukraine. One woman had to flee her home because of Russian shelling. Her parents live in Russia and she's in cell phone contact with them. At first the woman was reluctant to tell her parents she'd had to flee for fear they'd worry too much. But when she finally did tell them she was astounded to discover, they refused to believe her. Why? They'd been indoctrinated.

The parents watched Russian state TV. State TV reports a Nazi faction came to power in Ukraine and Russia is liberating the Ukrainians. Within Russia, most of the public either believes this or accepts it. When the daughter told her parents in Russia that Russian forces regularly shelled residential neighborhoods they refused to believe that too. They insisted the Russian military wouldn't do that.
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Old 25th August 2022, 08:18 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
From the article:

Quote:
Quote:
In his Focus on the Family interview, he said, "There's an element on the far left that believes parents really have no role in the education of their kids. You drop them off at school ... and they impose the ideology and worldview that they want."
He is 100% correct on the above point. And I think a lot of voters find that relatable.
Originally Posted by zorro99 View Post
Thatís BS
Yes, that's absolute horse shirt. If you read the position statements of the NEA, every state department of education and every school district you'll see that they want parents to be involved in their children's education and know what they are being taught.

But since DeSantis's statement follows the "own the libs" line it gets repeated as fact. One wonders how folks function in the world when all they believe is dictated by some authority figure who caters to their petty prejudices.

And DeSantis knows exactly what he's doing. He wants the ignorant, easily led, unquestioning band of bigots to hang on his every word.
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Old 25th August 2022, 08:20 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Yes, that's absolute horse shirt. If you read the position statements of the NEA, every state department of education and every school district you'll see that they want parents to be involved in their children's education and know what they are being taught.

But since DeSantis's statement follows the "own the libs" line it gets repeated as fact. One wonders how folks function in the world when all they believe is dictated by some authority figure who caters to their petty prejudices.

And DeSantis knows exactly what he's doing. He wants the ignorant, easily led, unquestioning band of bigots to hang on his every word.

A lot of voters find his statement relatable...whether you do or not. Oh well.
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Old 25th August 2022, 08:26 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
A lot of voters find his statement relatable...whether you do or not. Oh well.
I agree with this, otherwise he wouldn't be doing it. And I suspect the underlying reason he's taking this action is to ensure a steady supply of similarly relatable voters in the future. But I doubt this statement was the one that drew the horse shirt comparison, but rather the "He is 100% correct" part. Which is indeed, well, equine feces.
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Old 25th August 2022, 08:28 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
A lot of voters find his statement relatable...whether you do or not. Oh well.
You've also got the background of intellectuals writing about the need to do that to remake public morality going back to Plato's Republic. Engels talks about it. Pretty much any political philosophy that is about doing away with tradition and remaking the world along some new principle finds it needs to break the ability of parents to pass on their traditions and world view to their children.
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Old 25th August 2022, 08:28 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Yes, that's absolute horse shirt. If you read the position statements of the NEA, every state department of education and every school district you'll see that they want parents to be involved in their children's education and know what they are being taught.

But since DeSantis's statement follows the "own the libs" line it gets repeated as fact. One wonders how folks function in the world when all they believe is dictated by some authority figure who caters to their petty prejudices.

And DeSantis knows exactly what he's doing. He wants the ignorant, easily led, unquestioning band of bigots to hang on his every word.
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
A lot of voters find his statement relatable...whether you do or not. Oh well.
So it's okay to lie to the voters as long as they buy it?
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Old 25th August 2022, 08:33 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
A lot of voters find his statement relatable...whether you do or not. Oh well.
Wasn't that covered in the "ignorant, easily led, unquestioning band of bigots to hang on his every word" bit? And isn't DeSantis' attempt to indoctrinate FL students in the conservative mindset an attempt to increase his supply of ignorant, easily led, unquestioning band of bigots to hang on his every word?
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Old 25th August 2022, 08:40 AM   #210
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I said it during the peak of the Trump days that the most dangerous Trumpers were the ones who were convinced they above everything because they were aware of and therefore in on the joke, that basically just swallowing Trump's lies but doing it with an air of detached glibness made them better.
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Old 25th August 2022, 09:12 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
A lot of voters find his statement relatable...
No ****. That's why DeSantis is doing it.

A lot of people found other historical scapegoating campaigns very relatable. That doesn't mean they weren't still horse ****. ("Lot's of people believe it" is on the woo-woo BINGO card, too.)

And the fact that you are unable to come up with any actual examples of freakish liberal ideals and beliefs being pressed on children by public school teachers to support DeSantis's cynical manipulation of the ignorance of his political base should inform you that it is just another ******** scapegoating campaign. But if you keep digging your sure to get out of that hole without having to admit you were wrong - eventually
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Old 25th August 2022, 09:16 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
We can also see your continuing failure to provide the requested examples of "freakish liberal ideals and beliefs being pressed on children".
Gay people exist.
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Old 25th August 2022, 09:18 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Gay people exist.
And brown people.
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Old 25th August 2022, 09:18 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
You've also got the background of intellectuals writing about the need to do that to remake public morality going back to Plato's Republic. Engels talks about it. Pretty much any political philosophy that is about doing away with tradition and remaking the world along some new principle finds it needs to break the ability of parents to pass on their traditions and world view to their children.
Since Warp has fumbled the ball and is currently running down the field with his own shoe tucked under his arm, maybe you could recover it and score a touchdown for your side by giving us examples establishing a pattern of intent to "break the ability of parents to pass on their traditions and world view to their children"?
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Old 25th August 2022, 09:21 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Since Warp has fumbled the ball and is currently running down the field with his own shoe tucked under his arm, maybe you could recover it and score a touchdown for your side by giving us examples establishing a pattern of intent to "break the ability of parents to pass on their traditions and world view to their children"?
I don't think so. This is a forum for cheap point scoring, not debates and resolving disagreements. If you haven't read the history of your own intellectual tradition, it's kind of out of the scope of these threads to talk you through it. A mod box would come along and it would be a derail. I've given you two examples. That's as much as I'm going to do for now.

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Old 25th August 2022, 09:21 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
No ****. That's why DeSantis is doing it.

A lot of people found other historical scapegoating campaigns very relatable. That doesn't mean they weren't still horse ****. ("Lot's of people believe it" is on the woo-woo BINGO card, too.)

And the fact that you are unable to come up with any actual examples of freakish liberal ideals and beliefs being pressed on children by public school teachers to support DeSantis's cynical manipulation of the ignorance of his political base should inform you that it is just another ******** scapegoating campaign. But if you keep digging your sure to get out of that hole without having to admit you were wrong - eventually

I believe we might see that the libs were "digging their own holes", as you put it.

Instituted policy and election results will tell the story.
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Old 25th August 2022, 09:23 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
So it's okay to lie to the voters as long as they buy it?

When has it not been???
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Old 25th August 2022, 09:26 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I don't think so. This is a forum for cheap point scoring, not debates and resolving disagreements.
Especially if your goal is not to have a debate, but to make a demonstrably wrong statement then "I don't want to discuss it" in response to every challenge to your claim. If your side has zero facts in support, then an actual debate will of course be a losing proposition.
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Old 25th August 2022, 09:34 AM   #219
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No way in hell to keep parents from plastering their fantasies and beliefs onto their children. But public education (and the better sort of private education) can counteract them, even dismiss them, and produce a better generation.

DeSnazi's cheerleaders think that's just the awfulest thing. Gosh I wish I felt sorrier for them.
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Old 25th August 2022, 09:35 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Especially if your goal is not to have a debate, but to make a demonstrably wrong statement then "I don't want to discuss it" in response to every challenge to your claim. If your side has zero facts in support, then an actual debate will of course be a losing proposition.
In our friend's rich fantasy world getting a rise out of somebody by making an outlandish statement you won't back up, or even talk about is the same as "winning" the debate.
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Old 25th August 2022, 09:36 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Gay people exist.
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue
And brown people.
I think we've seen ample evidence that the problem is less with their existence than with them being people.

I think what they're afraid of isn't that white kids will feel bad about themselves if they learn truths about history, but rather that they'll think, "Man! That sucked what happened to those people! Let's not continue doing the same **** when we grow up".
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Old 25th August 2022, 09:38 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I've given you two examples.
Where have you done that?
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Old 25th August 2022, 09:39 AM   #223
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The fact that people are terrified of some kind of forced personal guilt in regards to the history of America says a lot more about them than anyone else.

Liberals have been trying to sell some version of "Liberal White Guilt" for ages and nobody, even most liberals, buys it.
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Old 25th August 2022, 09:47 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I believe we might see that the libs were "digging their own holes", as you put it.
"I know you are! But what am I?"

Classy and intellectually astute. We'd see it right now if you actually provided any of the evidence that you totally have but just can't be bothered to present.

Quote:
Instituted policy and election results will tell the story.
No, they won't. Are you really incapable of comprehending that argumentum ad populem is a fallacy?

If DeSantis sweeps the election and becomes the next president based on his ******** rhetoric, it will only establish that a large percentage of the population believes him, not that he's right. You've been here over nine years. Surely you must have learned something about the basics of critical thinking and rational argument by now.
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Old 25th August 2022, 09:57 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
If DeSantis sweeps the election and becomes the next president based on his ******** rhetoric, it will only establish that a large percentage of the population believes him, not that he's right.

If he does that, he will have of achieved something much more grand and influential than what you may consider "right".
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Old 25th August 2022, 10:02 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
If he does that, he will have of achieved something much more grand and influential than what you may consider "right".
Couple with your inference that lying to the voters is right one has to question your sense of right and wrong.

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Old 25th August 2022, 10:32 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
If he does that, he will have of achieved something much more grand and influential than what you may consider "right".
There's nothing grand about making stupid people do what you want by lying to them.

Did Jim Bakker do grand things?
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Old 25th August 2022, 10:36 AM   #228
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Even with the context of a... ah "colorful character" argument I don't get what is being argued with the whole vague "Yeah but DeSantis is going to achieve something" thing is supposed to be about.
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Old 25th August 2022, 11:24 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Even with the context of a... ah "colorful character" argument I don't get what is being argued with the whole vague "Yeah but DeSantis is going to achieve something" thing is supposed to be about.
Well, if DeSantis succeeds in making it illegal to teach that gay people are people, or that slaves weren't happy with their lot, or that trans people aren't all mentally disturbed, or that man made global warming is real, or that evolution is real, or that the US wasn't founded as a Christian nation, etc, then with an even further dumbed down FL population the "Florida man" news articles are going to be great.

And if DeSantis parlays that into the US Presidency, then the entire world can crash and burn in a great mess soon after!
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Old 25th August 2022, 11:38 AM   #230
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It's kind of funny, in a sad way, that defending a conservative position is often indistinguishable from trolling.
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Old 25th August 2022, 11:38 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Beginning?
Depends on your defintion of troll.
I think a Troll is somebody who posts crap because they get their jollies from the fuss they stir up. They want attettion, and don't care what kind of attention they get.
Warp12 over the past couple of weeks is being delibertly inflammatory in his or her comments in a way that makes be wonder if stirring up crap is the main motive rather then push a political view.
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Old 25th August 2022, 11:50 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
It's kind of funny, in a sad way, that defending a conservative position is often indistinguishable from trolling.
I have always thought that the central question in modern American state and national elections is: What is the proper role of government in our society?

The debate most often breaks down into a big government/little government argument.

Conservatives tend to come down on the side of little government. Why is that approach necessarily wrong?

So if that's the debate what's with all the dirty politics, misleading campaign adds, got ya' debates and phony scandals (okay, some are real)?

In the case of DeSantis and this, IMHO, phony controversy only detracts from the real, central questions of the election.

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Old 25th August 2022, 11:56 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Conservatives tend to come down on the side of little government.
No they don't.
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Old 25th August 2022, 12:01 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
It's kind of funny, in a sad way, that defending a conservative position is often indistinguishable from trolling.
Once they went all in on Trump, they decided to copy his tactics as well. DeSantis is trying to be Trump 2.0, but he's definitely sticking with the "stick it to the libs" trolling as a tactic.
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Old 25th August 2022, 12:02 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Even with the context of a... ah "colorful character" argument I don't get what is being argued with the whole vague "Yeah but DeSantis is going to achieve something" thing is supposed to be about.
You've never seen someone point and shout, "SQUIRREL!!!" before?
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Old 25th August 2022, 12:04 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No they don't.
Okay. . .big military, a big pro business stance. . .etc.

But, little government for the man on the street.
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Old 25th August 2022, 12:05 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Okay. . .big military, a big pro business stance. . .etc.

But, little government for the man on the street.
Maybe, but not the woman.
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Old 25th August 2022, 12:05 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Conservatives tend to come down on the side of little government.
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No they don't.
Conservatives claim to come down on the side of small government, but in practice they want an enlarged police state style of government. One with a minister of propaganda in every school, an agency tasked with making sure your sexual practices between consenting adults follow a very narrow rule book, a ridiculously large legislature writing tons of laws against anything they can imagine whether it happens or not, and of course a military larger than every other country in the world combined.
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Old 25th August 2022, 12:07 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Maybe, but not the woman.
Yew don't need na' family plannin', girl. Ain't yew got no coat hanger?
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Old 25th August 2022, 12:14 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
...Conservatives tend to come down on the side of little government. Why is that approach necessarily wrong?
The philosophy of small government isn't necessarily wrong. But those who call themselves conservatives these days clearly don't believe in it. Smaller government does not mean interfering with female reproductive rights, or with rights based on sexual orientation, or favoring one religion's ideals over others. Hell, this very thread is about a conservative effort to expand government control over public education.

It would be more accurate to say that conservatives differ from liberals not in terms of the size of government, but rather the issues to which they believe the government should be applied.
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