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Old 9th September 2022, 10:41 AM   #41
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Oh not the "What if 50 feral hogs are coming toward my children but the government has siezed my guns" argument.

Newsflash other countries have rural and wilderness areas without having a gun nut culture or a classroom getting shot up every other 5 minutes.
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Old 9th September 2022, 10:43 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
8:39 AM, 9/8/2022. Ziggurat compares a mass murderer to rape victims.
Rittenhouse didn't murder anyone. He killed two people in self defense.

And Joe thinks rape would be OK if the woman dressed provocatively.
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Old 9th September 2022, 10:44 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Rittenhouse didn't murder anyone.
*Snort laughs* Okay whatever.

Again dear God the fruit basket this place gives out for the monthly "Who can be the most wrong about the most things with the most toxic attitude in the most hateful way" contest must just be glorious the way you people fight to win it.
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Old 9th September 2022, 10:45 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
No he didn't, he killed people because someone threw a gym bag near him.
Yeah, no. That isn't remotely accurate.

Quote:
His defense was that he thought "they might hurt him" Is someone in the crowd had decided to shoot Ritternhouse in the head, they would have been entitled to the exact same defense he used and would have been found not guilty if judged to the same standards.
Your delusions run deep.
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Old 9th September 2022, 10:47 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Snort laughs* Okay whatever.
Words have meaning. "Murder" is different than "kill". And "mass murder" is a subset of murder. You were wrong on both counts. It wasn't murder, and the numbers wouldn't have made it "mass" even if it had been. I know you're butt hurt that the jury acquitted him, but they did. Get over it.
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Old 9th September 2022, 10:49 AM   #46
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Right. If a black guy had his mommy drive him over state lines to defend other black people and he shot a white guy and literally every single other thing about it was the same.... skip to the point where you pretend to be outraged where I tell you to your face that you would call the black guy a murderer and we both know it.
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Old 9th September 2022, 10:56 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If you can't quantify the damage, then you can't quantify the blame. Nor are they the only beneficiaries. You likely are too.
Well, if I had a better grasp of math and statistics, I probably could run a fairly accurate Fermi estimation. Alas. The courts can hire actual experts to do that once such harm is punishable with up to 50 years in prison.

It's a bit silly to consider me or anyone else a beneficiary since we had little choice in the matter. It's also presumptive to assume that life would somehow be worse because we didn't let companies pump greenhouse gases and other toxic stuff into the atmosphere with abandon.
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Old 9th September 2022, 11:17 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Right. If the a black guy had his mommy drive him over state lines
Any time someone brings this up, it's a guarantee that they're just paroting talking points they've been given.

Way back before the trial, prosecutors tried to make this a thing by claiming he had brought a weapon across state lines, trying to suggest that was an additional offense. But that wasn't true, the weapon was never brought across state lines. And state lines have no other legal relevance. Nothing about this case had anything to do with state lines. Anyone who's still talking about state lines as if it matters is grasping at straws, because it doesn't and it never did.

So... of course you bring up state lines.

Quote:
to defend other black people and he shot a white guy and literally every single other thing about it was the same.... skip to the point where you pretend to be outraged where I tell you to your face that you would call the black guy a murderer and we both know it.
No. You imagine it.

First off, Rittenhouse killed two white people. So this wasn't a white vs. black thing.

Second, you're wrong about how race affects my views of participants. Perhaps you forgot about the case of Michael Drejka shooting Markeis McGlockton. White man shoots a black man, claims self defense. I didn't think it was self defense, and said so in threads here.

Or we can take an example such as Corey Joseph Marioneaux Jr.. He's a black man charged with attempted murder for shooting at cops. Generally I think shooting at cops is a very bad thing, but this was a 5 AM no knock raid. Corey thought he was defending his home against home invaders. I think that's a legitimate case of self defense, and he should not be charged with any crime.

And lastly, considering the often explicitly racist history of gun control in America, there's more than a little irony to your false accusations.

Crime disproportionately affects blacks, and police are failing to protect many blacks from crime. You want to deny them the ability to protect themselves. I don't. But somehow I'm the racist one.
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Old 9th September 2022, 11:21 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
It's a bit silly to consider me or anyone else a beneficiary since we had little choice in the matter.
Oh, but you do have a choice. You choose what you buy, for example.

Quote:
It's also presumptive to assume that life would somehow be worse because we didn't let companies pump greenhouse gases and other toxic stuff into the atmosphere with abandon.
That's not presumptive, that's proven. Greenhouse gasses in particular are an unavoidable consequence of basically any manufacturing process. We have the standard of living that we have because of fossil fuel use. It would not be possible without that. And even under the most optimistic dream of environmentalists about what might be possible in the future, none of that carbon-free industry was possible in the past, and you are a direct beneficiary of all that past activity.
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Old 9th September 2022, 11:30 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You have a 2nd amendment right to bear arms. That doesn't confer the right to shoot anyone you want. That isn't part of the 2nd amendment. If an armed mob is shooting people that don't deserve to be shot, the problem isn't that they have guns, but that they are shooting people that don't deserve to be shot.

Not all mobs are well regulated.
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Old 9th September 2022, 11:48 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Oh, but you do have a choice. You choose what you buy, for example.



That's not presumptive, that's proven. Greenhouse gasses in particular are an unavoidable consequence of basically any manufacturing process. We have the standard of living that we have because of fossil fuel use. It would not be possible without that. And even under the most optimistic dream of environmentalists about what might be possible in the future, none of that carbon-free industry was possible in the past, and you are a direct beneficiary of all that past activity.
I actually agree with that. I like the idea of trying to shepherd developing countries into green industrialization if we can, but the first go through we really needed those fossil fuels to advance. The big thing would be to react to the environmental impact before doing too much damage. I think we're a bit overdue there.
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Old 9th September 2022, 01:00 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I do. He protected his rights against people who attacked him and tried to kill him. The right to bear arms worked.

Police aren't the only people you need to protect your rights from. And given that police cannot be held legally responsible for not protecting you, the ability to protect yourself seems rather important to me.
Our boy Kyle interjected himself with his weapon, thereby adding an aggravating factor. If he didn't have that gun, he wouldn't have been attacked and thus would not have needed it.

This stunningly brainless American notion that everyone needs a gun to protect themselves completely skips over the 'arms race' aspect that can only result in yet more harm. An armed society is not a polite society. It's a paranoid society.
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Old 9th September 2022, 01:17 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Protection is going mean different things depending on location of the person. Rural areas have more wildlife threats to consider, as well as extremely long response times from police. High crime urban areas generally have extreme limits on carry licenses but people living there that are exposed to crime regularly will have a different outlook on needing some personal protection on their person or in their home than those outside looking in. You can quote all the statistics you want about this being counterproductive and more likely to cause injury than help, personal experiences is what will drive people.
Because humans are fundamentally irrational. Part of the reason, in our nature as a social animal, we establish structured societies is to impart order for the good of all. But our reptilian core is always lurking just under the surface, and it's an ongoing battle to impose control over it. Fear of potential violence activates our primitive impulses, giving way to decisions that can be counter productive. Like allowing unrestricted open carry.
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Old 9th September 2022, 01:21 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The United States government has ~1,350,000 active duty troops and another ~800,000 in reserve status. It has tanks, rockets, missile, nuclear weapons, stealth bombers, cruise missile, submarines, fighter jets, and a partridge in a pear tree.

Cletus is going to do exactly what with his pump action 12 gauge?
Raid the National Guard Armory?

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Old 9th September 2022, 01:45 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Our boy Kyle interjected himself with his weapon, thereby adding an aggravating factor. If he didn't have that gun, he wouldn't have been attacked and thus would not have needed it.
Thank you for explaining that to Zig. He seems to be having trouble understanding that Rittenhouse bringing a damn gun resulted in the death of 2 men whereas how a woman dresses does not result in her being raped.

Quote:
This stunningly brainless American notion that everyone needs a gun to protect themselves completely skips over the 'arms race' aspect that can only result in yet more harm. An armed society is not a polite society. It's a paranoid society.
Well said. I've always said that conservatism is rooted in fear.
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Old 9th September 2022, 02:33 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's not presumptive, that's proven. Greenhouse gasses in particular are an unavoidable consequence of basically any manufacturing process. We have the standard of living that we have because of fossil fuel use. It would not be possible without that. And even under the most optimistic dream of environmentalists about what might be possible in the future, none of that carbon-free industry was possible in the past, and you are a direct beneficiary of all that past activity.
In your scenario, the Koch brothers were valiant defenders of modern civilization who used their vast wealth to keep environmentalist from destroying our way of life. I don't buy it.

This isn't an either-or situation. More could have been done without negative impacts on society, and people like the Koch brothers prevented more from being done, and they did it out of their own greed, and their greed only benefitted them. Without them, renewable energy would be further along and carbon tax would be further along. They have blood on their hands.
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Old 9th September 2022, 02:39 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The United States government has ~1,350,000 active duty troops and another ~800,000 in reserve status. It has tanks, rockets, missile, nuclear weapons, stealth bombers, cruise missile, submarines, fighter jets, and a partridge in a pear tree.

Cletus is going to do exactly what with his pump action 12 gauge?
The problem is in such an emergency the armed forces may fracture. It did so in the Civil war with some 20% of the Army and bit more of the Navy joining the Confederacy. If such a situation arises - as shown in foreign countries in coups and rebellions - a percent will support the government, a percent the 'rebels' and another part may elect to remain neutral or bid them time, another part may disband themselves so as to not be involved.
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Old 10th September 2022, 02:09 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Oh, but you do have a choice. You choose what you buy, for example.



That's not presumptive, that's proven. Greenhouse gasses in particular are an unavoidable consequence of basically any manufacturing process. We have the standard of living that we have because of fossil fuel use. It would not be possible without that. And even under the most optimistic dream of environmentalists about what might be possible in the future, none of that carbon-free industry was possible in the past, and you are a direct beneficiary of all that past activity.
They're not unavoidable. We burned fossil fuels for two reasons, because it was easy, and because it was cheap. It was only cheap because the government heavily subsidized extraction, essentially mandating that the nation would be built on fossil fuels. Had this not happened, then we'd have had electric cars from the start. What do you think electric cars would have looked like after a hundred years of development like the gasoline/diesel cars had? All of that carbon-free industry was possible in the past, and was actively being pursued.
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Old 10th September 2022, 04:52 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I do. He protected his rights against people who attacked him and tried to kill him. The right to bear arms worked.

Police aren't the only people you need to protect your rights from. And given that police cannot be held legally responsible for not protecting you, the ability to protect yourself seems rather important to me.
The disgusting little **** should have been shot. Instead he got lucky with a weak prosecutor and corrupt judge. His reward was losing his virginity to Laura Ingrahm while he told her about killing a Democrat.
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Old 10th September 2022, 05:40 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Think that he can...Raid the National Guard Armory?
Accuracy.
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Old 12th September 2022, 06:41 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I know this counter to the right wing echo chamber narrative, but Rittenhouse isnít the victim in the analogy, Zig.
Exactly he is the hero, he went looking for trouble to get some notches in his gun stock and got them. Like a boss!
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Old 12th September 2022, 06:44 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Rittenhouse didn't murder anyone. He killed two people in self defense.
He just created the situation with the intent of defending himself using his gun totally different.
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Old 12th September 2022, 07:13 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Our boy Kyle interjected himself with his weapon, thereby adding an aggravating factor. If he didn't have that gun, he wouldn't have been attacked and thus would not have needed it.
If she didn't wear that dress, she wouldn't have been raped.

Quote:
This stunningly brainless American notion that everyone needs a gun to protect themselves
This is a straw man. I've never claimed everyone needs a gun to protect themselves. Currently I don't have the need for a gun to protect myself, and I don't have a gun, but some people do have the need. So your starting premise is wrong, it's not a question of whether or not everyone needs a gun. The relevant question is, should people have the right to a gun to protect yourself? If people have the right, then those who need one can legally get one. If people don't have the right, then only those lucky few whom the government favors can legally get one.
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Old 12th September 2022, 07:20 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
They're not unavoidable. We burned fossil fuels for two reasons, because it was easy, and because it was cheap.
You have some pretty damn strong delusions about the nature of industrial society and the history of technology. There was never, ever the possibility of leapfrogging from wood fires to solar panels.

Quote:
It was only cheap because the government heavily subsidized extraction, essentially mandating that the nation would be built on fossil fuels. Had this not happened, then we'd have had electric cars from the start. What do you think electric cars would have looked like after a hundred years of development like the gasoline/diesel cars had? All of that carbon-free industry was possible in the past, and was actively being pursued.
Electric cars have never, ever been carbon-free. Where do you think electricity comes from? This is pure fantasy. And we've been burning fossil fuels long before the automobile.

Here's a little clue for the clueless. Forests cover more of the United States today than they did 100 years ago. Why?
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Old 12th September 2022, 07:39 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If she didn't wear that dress, she wouldn't have been raped.
And of course going there with the express intent of getting raped. Why leave that out?
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Old 12th September 2022, 08:08 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And of course going there with the express intent of getting raped. Why leave that out?
Because there's no reason to think Rittenhouse went there with the express intent of getting attacked. Duh.
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Old 12th September 2022, 08:15 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Because there's no reason to think Rittenhouse went there with the express intent of getting attacked. Duh.
He went there to have a confrontation, he got what he wanted. He got to live the dream of all gun owners.
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Old 12th September 2022, 08:35 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
He went there to have a confrontation
She went to that bar to find someone to have sex with.
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Old 12th September 2022, 09:05 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Rittenhouse didn't murder anyone. He killed two people in self defense.
Against people who were also acting in self-defense.
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Old 12th September 2022, 09:08 AM   #70
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Wow you really going to run with the whole "Being a racist vigilante murderer is the exact same thing as being a rape victim" thing aren't you?

I mean keep going it's utterly hilarious, but I don't know if that's what you are going for.
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Old 12th September 2022, 09:27 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Against people who were also acting in self-defense.
Yeah... no. Not even close.
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Old 12th September 2022, 09:48 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Raid the National Guard Armory?
Not a joke, but while I was dropping out of The Citadel (the military college of South Carolina) one upperclassman that was taking me from person to person described how our parade rifles only lacked firing pins and ammunition, both easily ordered. Just up the river there is a national guard armory that he described as ďeasyĒ to take with a couple dozen gunmen, and then the thousand members of the Corps of Cadets could hold the river and the school.

I just nodded politely
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Old 12th September 2022, 10:12 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
He went there to have a confrontation, he got what he wanted. He got to live the dream of all gun owners.
Well, hardly all gun owners, nor even all AR-15ers, although I confess I can't figure out what they think they're up to, besides wasting ammo.

But it was clearly little Karl Rottenass's treasured wet dream, and if anybody wants to call him a pudgy-butt fascist punk, that's okay with me.
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Old 12th September 2022, 10:35 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
She went to that bar to find someone to have sex with.
Sex is very different than rape. Looking for a violent confrontation is simply assault
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Old 12th September 2022, 10:40 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yeah... no. Not even close.
Neither is your analogy. That's the thing. Just because you can draw a similarity doesn't mean two things are similar.
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Old 12th September 2022, 11:11 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Forests cover more of the United States today than they did 100 years ago. Why?
Because roughly 100 years ago was close to peak deforestation. What did that have to do with gasoline versus electricity as the power source for cars & trucks?
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Old 12th September 2022, 11:49 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
Sex is very different than rape. Looking for a violent confrontation is simply assault
This is still being asserted without evidence.
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Old 12th September 2022, 11:53 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Because roughly 100 years ago was close to peak deforestation. What did that have to do with gasoline versus electricity as the power source for cars & trucks?
Yes... but why? Why were we cutting down so many trees?

Because we needed fuel, even before gasoline. And we largely stopped burning wood because of fossil fuels. Human society requires energy. The past alternative to fossil fuels was never some sort of environmental utopia.
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Old 12th September 2022, 11:58 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yes... but why? Why were we cutting down so many trees?

Because we needed fuel, even before gasoline. And we largely stopped burning wood because of fossil fuels. Human society requires energy. The past alternative to fossil fuels was never some sort of environmental utopia.
This is being asserted without evidence. How much of the deforestation was for fuel, vs lumber, vs clearing land for crops?
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Old 12th September 2022, 12:16 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
This is being asserted without evidence. How much of the deforestation was for fuel, vs lumber, vs clearing land for crops?
https://science.time.com/2013/07/04/...on-since-1776/

Wood fuel usage peaked in the late 1800's.

If you don't want to believe we cleared a lot of land for fuel, fine. But there was never any possibility that we could have industrialized without the use of fossil fuels. Our modern world is built on fossil fuels. Even under the most optimistic projections of what might be possible in the future, we could never have gotten to that point without going through a period of intense fossil fuel usage.
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