IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 8th September 2022, 04:05 PM   #1
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 61,387
Violence on the Left

To avoid being hoist by my own petard, I'm starting a separate thread for these:

"Top N.J. political operative charged in bizarre murder-for-hire plot"
A Jersey City political operative who worked as a consultant to former New Jersey state Sen. Raymond Lesniak pleaded guilty Tuesday in a grisly plot to kill a long-time associate, whose death had stymied investigators for years.
"Democratic Donor Ed Buck Is Convicted In Deaths Of 2 Men He Offered Drugs For Sex"
A federal jury on Tuesday convicted a wealthy California political donor on charges he injected gay men with methamphetamine in exchange for sex, leading to two deaths and other overdoses.

Ed Buck, 66, was found guilty of all nine felony counts in federal court, which could lead to a life sentence. The verdict came exactly four years after one of the victims, 26-year-old Gemmel Moore, was found dead of an overdose in Buck's West Hollywood apartment.
Make of it what you will.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th September 2022, 04:41 PM   #2
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 17,234
Neither of these cases seem to involve politics apart from the people involved being involved in politics. There doesn't seem to be even a connection to left wing platforms or advocacy for the crimes.

What do you make of them?
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th September 2022, 06:09 PM   #3
Max_mang
Muse
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 513
When conservatives engage in politically motivated violence, crimes, illegal activity, etc - it's "mundane", "bad apples", Antifa false flags, no big deal, completely justified, what patriots do, etc - take your pick.

When someone even remotely liberal scratches their butt - it's "left wing violence", "the left is consolidating power", "the left wants a civil war", etc. And look out if any lefty engages in a protest against racism, fascism, police brutality, etc - then it's "savages", "terrorists", "looters", "rioters", etc.

The double standards aren't hidden any more and haven't been in a while.
Max_mang is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2022, 12:53 AM   #4
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 27,425
I think I can do a little better than those examples:

Japanese Red Army

Movements of the Japanese Red Army and the "Yodo-go" group
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2022, 05:14 AM   #5
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 19,541
Where as most murderers are inner city minoritys, so probably Democrats (if they think that deeply) then yes, there is lots of violence from the Left. Including Antifa and BLM.
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2022, 12:48 PM   #6
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 22,280
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Where as most murderers are inner city minoritys, so probably Democrats (if they think that deeply) then yes, there is lots of violence from the Left. Including Antifa and BLM.
Because, you know, what happened in DC on 1/6/21 was just

- a tourist visit.
- legitimate political discourse.
- conservatives expressing their concerns.
__________________
Science supplies evidence, invites you to analyse and evaluate that evidence, and then to draw conclusions from that
Religion supplies no evidence, demands you have faith, and expects you to uncritically and automatically believe that something is true simply because "the Bible tells you so"
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2022, 12:54 PM   #7
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 22,280
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
To avoid being hoist by my own petard, I'm starting a separate thread for these:

"Top N.J. political operative charged in bizarre murder-for-hire plot"
A Jersey City political operative who worked as a consultant to former New Jersey state Sen. Raymond Lesniak pleaded guilty Tuesday in a grisly plot to kill a long-time associate, whose death had stymied investigators for years.
"Democratic Donor Ed Buck Is Convicted In Deaths Of 2 Men He Offered Drugs For Sex"
A federal jury on Tuesday convicted a wealthy California political donor on charges he injected gay men with methamphetamine in exchange for sex, leading to two deaths and other overdoses.

Ed Buck, 66, was found guilty of all nine felony counts in federal court, which could lead to a life sentence. The verdict came exactly four years after one of the victims, 26-year-old Gemmel Moore, was found dead of an overdose in Buck's West Hollywood apartment.
Make of it what you will.
OK then, in terms of the thread title, I make it a nothingburger!

The title "Violence on the Left" implies politically motivated violence by people on the political left. None of that applies to the body of your OP. This is pure clickbait!

You are always the first poster on this forum to whinge about clickbait titles, and yet here you are, doing exactly what you decry others for.

ETA: And yes I did see the other topic in the USA Politics forum, and yes I did see that you posted this one in the Social Issues & Current Events forum. Clickbait always works best when there is some misdirection and subterfuge.
__________________
Science supplies evidence, invites you to analyse and evaluate that evidence, and then to draw conclusions from that
Religion supplies no evidence, demands you have faith, and expects you to uncritically and automatically believe that something is true simply because "the Bible tells you so"
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list!

Last edited by smartcooky; 9th September 2022 at 12:59 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2022, 05:49 AM   #8
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 27,425
Las Vegas reporter remembered as fearless force after elected official, angry at journalist's work, is arrested in his death
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2022, 06:16 AM   #9
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 27,425
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"Democratic Donor Ed Buck Is Convicted In Deaths Of 2 Men He Offered Drugs For Sex"
A federal jury on Tuesday convicted a wealthy California political donor on charges he injected gay men with methamphetamine in exchange for sex, leading to two deaths and other overdoses.

Ed Buck, 66, was found guilty of all nine felony counts in federal court, which could lead to a life sentence. The verdict came exactly four years after one of the victims, 26-year-old Gemmel Moore, was found dead of an overdose in Buck's West Hollywood apartment.
Make of it what you will.
Although the man's politics are not really relevant here, this must be one of the creepiest crimes I've ever heard of.

Even if we turn a blind eye to the racial aspect, a very wealthy man apparently got his kicks from luring homeless drug addicted men to his home for sex, and his fetish was to inject them will deadly drugs.

There is a picture of him posing with Hillary Clinton, although I'm sure she was unaware of this aspect of him. Also lots of pictures of her with Harvey Weinstein.

Maybe it's that some wealthy sexual predators like to hide by posing as "progressives".
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2022, 07:08 AM   #10
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 9,639
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The title "Violence on the Left" implies politically motivated violence by people on the political left..
Something like the Congressional baseball shootingWP is a much better fit.

ETA: Possibly also the CHAZ/CHOP shootings.
__________________
Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.

Last edited by d4m10n; 10th September 2022 at 07:29 AM.
d4m10n is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2022, 07:21 AM   #11
Venom
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 5,970
Facepalm.

The real alarm bells will ring when mainstream Democrats even embrace far-left ideology, let alone promote violence in its name.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2022, 07:26 AM   #12
Venom
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 5,970
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Maybe it's that some wealthy sexual predators like to hide by posing as "progressives".
Well someone could care about environmentalism and changing political institutions for the better, etc but engage in objectionable activity themselves.

I'm sure there are many psychopaths and sexual predators who are politically progressive.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2022, 08:23 AM   #13
Hercules56
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,596
BLM and Antifa violence was horrific and disgusting.

But so was the violence on 1/6 and all the racist mass shootings done by MAGA fans.
Hercules56 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2022, 09:29 AM   #14
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA (in the Troll Ignoring Section)
Posts: 19,988
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
BLM and Antifa violence was horrific and disgusting.

But so was the violence on 1/6 and all the racist mass shootings done by MAGA fans.
Yeah, but BLM and antifa are reactions to existing racist and fascist movements. The neo fascists and white supremacists are there one way or the other. Antics only shows up to counter them in their own gutter terms.

No fascists, no antifa. Facists, antifa.

Doesn't work in the other direction.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2022, 09:51 AM   #15
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 9,639
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
No fascists, no antifa.
I cannot think of any European (derived) culture wholly free of fascists, so it's hard to know if this statement is true or not.
__________________
Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.
d4m10n is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2022, 10:07 AM   #16
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA (in the Troll Ignoring Section)
Posts: 19,988
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I cannot think of any European (derived) culture wholly free of fascists, so it's hard to know if this statement is true or not.
Well, they are anti fascists. It's right there in the name. It's a frustrating identity to be anti-something that isn't an active threat. Kind of like identifying as anti Death Star. I mean, I would generally be anti Death Star but wouldn't spring for the spiffy t-shirt or anything.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2022, 11:23 AM   #17
Venom
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 5,970
Which is kinda hilarious seeing the disproportionate rightwing outrage against "antifa", one of the new Fox News Boogeymen of the last few years.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2022, 12:58 PM   #18
Myriad
The Clarity Is Devastating
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Betwixt
Posts: 19,494
I'm much more prone to committing violence on the left. My left, I mean. I'm left-handed so that's where I'd wield most weapons.
__________________
A zømbie once bit my sister...
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2022, 01:04 PM   #19
Stellafane
Village Idiot.
 
Stellafane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 8,222
I called the previous thread on this topic, the one about the minor official in Arizona, the most pathetic thread in the history of the internet. I had not thought a challenger for that title would appear so quickly.

I cannot even imagine what point this thread is intended to serve.
__________________
"Stellafane! My old partner in crime!" - Kelly J
Stellafane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2022, 02:11 PM   #20
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 22,280
Edited by sarge:  removed moderated content


Thermal and I don't agree on much, but this one is an exception.

Antifa only exist because fascism exists.

Fascism only exists because a percentage of the population are vile scumbags who want the world to be populated with the superior race of Aryans, and who object to sharing the world and its resources with "Untermenschen" such as Jews, Darkies, Spicks, Gypsies and others who don't conform the the fascist ideal of what it means to be a person.

...ergo, if the were no fascism, there would be no Antifa, no reason for them to even exist.



Black Lives Matter is a little more complex than that.

BLM only exist because White Supremacists and Systemic Racism exists.

White Supremacism only exists because a percentage of the population are vile scumbags who want the world to be populated only with white people, and who object to sharing the world and its resources with Black people.

Systemic Racism exists because of the historical domination of all aspects of life by white people who have always had the power, and there are people in politics who are hell bent on keeping it that way. Blacks have been routinely discriminated against by governments, by authorities and individuals for the past 300+ years. It is understandable that they have collectively had a gutsfull of being treated this way, and unsurprising that they want to do something about it.

And that history of oppression and racism continues to this day. Its not enough that the Police and authorities profile and disproportionately target black people, but the latest tactic of the right is to try to "whitewash" history - to attempt to wipe any mention of slavery and racial oppression from the history books by preventing children from being taught about it at school, and by banning books (fiction, non-fiction and textbooks) that contain any references to slavery, racism and the oppression of Black people.

If governments had addressed the issues of slavery, and systemic racism when it had the chance in the aftermath of the Civil Rights movements in the 1960s, BLM would in all likelihood would either be a very small presence now, or not exist at all.
__________________
Science supplies evidence, invites you to analyse and evaluate that evidence, and then to draw conclusions from that
Religion supplies no evidence, demands you have faith, and expects you to uncritically and automatically believe that something is true simply because "the Bible tells you so"
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list!

Last edited by sarge; 22nd September 2022 at 06:23 AM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2022, 02:20 PM   #21
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 22,280
Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
I called the previous thread on this topic, the one about the minor official in Arizona, the most pathetic thread in the history of the internet. I had not thought a challenger for that title would appear so quickly.

I cannot even imagine what point this thread is intended to serve.

Oh, I can, I assure you!
__________________
Science supplies evidence, invites you to analyse and evaluate that evidence, and then to draw conclusions from that
Religion supplies no evidence, demands you have faith, and expects you to uncritically and automatically believe that something is true simply because "the Bible tells you so"
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2022, 02:33 PM   #22
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 56,301
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Where as most murderers are inner city minoritys, so probably Democrats (if they think that deeply) then yes, there is lots of violence from the Left. Including Antifa and BLM.
Not even bothering ot try to hide the bigotry, I see.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2022, 03:18 PM   #23
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 9,639
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Antifa only exist because fascism exists.
This is historically true, but then it was also historically true that the March of Dimes only existed because polio existed. It may be true that antifa would fold up shop if all the fascists converted to liberalism or progressivism, but it's just a prediction without any test cases.
__________________
Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.
d4m10n is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2022, 03:30 PM   #24
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 14,328
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
This is historically true, but then it was also historically true that the March of Dimes only existed because polio existed. It may be true that antifa would fold up shop if all the fascists converted to liberalism or progressivism, but it's just a prediction without any test cases.
I can assure you that in my case, if there were no fascists anymore, I would not call myself an anti-fascist. What would be the point?
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2022, 03:57 PM   #25
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Gundungurra
Posts: 12,366
The logic behind this nonsense is both very flawed and really dumb. It goes like this:

Person X is a registered Democrat voter.
Person X stabbed some notable guy to death.
Therefore anyone who stabs notable guys to death is a Democrat.


How dumb is this? Like this dumb:

Oswald ate cornflakes the morning JFK was assassinated.
JFK was assassinated by Oswald.
Therefore everyone who eats cornflakes is a presidential assassin.


Although run that by a Trumpanzee and you will probably get "Yeah! That's right! Let's boycott Kellogs!"
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2022, 04:06 PM   #26
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 9,639
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I can assure you that in my case, if there were no fascists anymore, I would not call myself an anti-fascist. What would be the point?
People don't like to give up an identity, in my understanding. It wouldn't be particularly hard to expand the definition to cover more mainstream figures.
__________________
Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.
d4m10n is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2022, 07:10 PM   #27
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 22,280
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
People don't like to give up an identity, in my understanding. It wouldn't be particularly hard to expand the definition to cover more mainstream figures.
I don't agree. I have met a number of Antifa types here. Its not their "identity" they just hate Nazis and the idea of fascism
__________________
Science supplies evidence, invites you to analyse and evaluate that evidence, and then to draw conclusions from that
Religion supplies no evidence, demands you have faith, and expects you to uncritically and automatically believe that something is true simply because "the Bible tells you so"
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2022, 02:22 AM   #28
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 14,328
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
People don't like to give up an identity, in my understanding. It wouldn't be particularly hard to expand the definition to cover more mainstream figures.
That's not really expanding the definition. Mainstream conservatives have a tendency to move towards fascism, and there's a clear overlap between the two groups.

If there were no more fascists, there would be quite a bit fewer conservatives as a consequence.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2022, 02:52 AM   #29
shuttlt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 9,836
Worth remembering that one of the original appeals of Hitler was left wing street violence, media censorship, and the fear of the same Marxists who had taken over in Russia taking over in Germany. There seems to be this delusion that Hitler somehow got in because of what a tolerant society Weimar was. Absolutely the opposite. They had their meetings attacked far more forcefully than anything antifa are doing today, and it made them stronger.
shuttlt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2022, 06:21 AM   #30
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 9,639
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I can assure you that in my case, if there were no fascists anymore, I would not call myself an anti-fascist.
What if there were still mainstream conservatives with a tendency to move towards fascism?
__________________
Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.
d4m10n is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2022, 10:10 AM   #31
Bogative
Master Poster
 
Bogative's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,194
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Well, they are anti fascists. It's right there in the name.

Yes, and the Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart was actually built around East Berlin to keep the fascists out. It's right there in the name.
__________________
"We have put together, I think, the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics.” – Joe Biden October 24, 2020
Bogative is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2022, 10:17 AM   #32
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 14,328
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What if there were still mainstream conservatives with a tendency to move towards fascism?
That would be fascists. So there would be fascists.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2022, 11:31 AM   #33
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA (in the Troll Ignoring Section)
Posts: 19,988
Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Yes, and the Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart was actually built around East Berlin to keep the fascists out. It's right there in the name.
Of course names can be deceptive. North Korea's full name springs to mind. So you judge by actions.

Can you name one antifa or BLM sponsored rioting event not in opposition to fascist parading? I'm not talking about Fox News portrayal of any kid in a black t-shirt as being antifa or BLM. Actually demonstrable involvement.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2022, 11:37 AM   #34
Cosmic Yak
Philosopher
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 6,253
Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Yes, and the Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart was actually built around East Berlin to keep the fascists out. It's right there in the name.
How many attempts were there by West German fascists to break through that wall? How many were shot trying to get into East Germany?
__________________
'Of course it can be OK to mistreat people.'- shuttlt

Cosmic Yak on this forum.
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2022, 11:37 AM   #35
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 9,639
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
That would be fascists. So there would be fascists.
How can you tell the "fascist" mainstream conservatives from the ordinary mainstream conservatives?

Put another way, can you think of (and perhaps identify) any non-fascist conservatives?
__________________
Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.
d4m10n is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2022, 12:24 PM   #36
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 14,328
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
How can you tell the "fascist" mainstream conservatives from the ordinary mainstream conservatives?

Put another way, can you think of (and perhaps identify) any non-fascist conservatives?
By name?

Sure. Many conservatives aren't fascists. In the US, the Trump wing of the GOP is fully fascist. The neo-con wing isn't fascist but rather neo-liberal. That would make people like Marjorie-Taylor Green, Gym Jordan, Ron Desantis and the like fascist. People like Liz Cheney, Adam Kinzinger, John Kerry and the like are neo-liberal. You can tell the difference from what they say and do.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2022, 12:38 PM   #37
shuttlt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 9,836
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
By name?

Sure. Many conservatives aren't fascists. In the US, the Trump wing of the GOP is fully fascist. The neo-con wing isn't fascist but rather neo-liberal. That would make people like Marjorie-Taylor Green, Gym Jordan, Ron Desantis and the like fascist. People like Liz Cheney, Adam Kinzinger, John Kerry and the like are neo-liberal. You can tell the difference from what they say and do.
You are correct that neo-cons are in fact liberals, all be it of a hawkish, free market type. That being the case, are there any actual conservatives that aren't fascists? Evangelical Christian conservatives, perhaps?
shuttlt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2022, 01:15 PM   #38
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 22,280
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What if there were still mainstream conservatives with a tendency to move towards fascism?
The they would soon be fascists.
__________________
Science supplies evidence, invites you to analyse and evaluate that evidence, and then to draw conclusions from that
Religion supplies no evidence, demands you have faith, and expects you to uncritically and automatically believe that something is true simply because "the Bible tells you so"
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2022, 01:32 PM   #39
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 22,280
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Worth remembering that one of the original appeals of Hitler was left wing street violence, media censorship, and the fear of the same Marxists who had taken over in Russia taking over in Germany. There seems to be this delusion that Hitler somehow got in because of what a tolerant society Weimar was. Absolutely the opposite. They had their meetings attacked far more forcefully than anything antifa are doing today, and it made them stronger.
As a keen student of the geopolitical situation in Europe in the first half of the 20th century, I can confidently state that this is wrong. Completely and utterly wrong.

I guess you are one of those who mistakenly assume that because NSDAP ( the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, or National Socialist German Workers' Party had the word "socialist" in their name, that they were some how politically left wing socialists.

Here is some light reading from an authoritative, non-partisan source to correct that false assumption...

https://www.britannica.com/story/wer...zis-socialists

To say that Hitler understood the value of language would be an enormous understatement. Propaganda played a significant role in his rise to power. To that end, he paid lip service to the tenets suggested by a name like National Socialist German Workers’ Party.

Over the following years the brothers Otto and Gregor Strasser did much to grow the party by tying Hitler’s racist nationalism to socialist rhetoric that appealed to the suffering lower middle classes. In doing so, the Strassers also succeeded in expanding the Nazi reach beyond its traditional Bavarian base.
__________________
Science supplies evidence, invites you to analyse and evaluate that evidence, and then to draw conclusions from that
Religion supplies no evidence, demands you have faith, and expects you to uncritically and automatically believe that something is true simply because "the Bible tells you so"
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2022, 02:08 PM   #40
shuttlt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 9,836
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
As a keen student of the geopolitical situation in Europe in the first half of the 20th century, I can confidently state that this is wrong. Completely and utterly wrong.

I guess you are one of those who mistakenly assume that because NSDAP ( the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, or National Socialist German Workers' Party had the word "socialist" in their name, that they were some how politically left wing socialists.
I didn't say that the Nazis were left wing.
shuttlt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:42 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.