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View Poll Results: Should Americans have right to self defense with a gun?
No 8 21.62%
Yes 29 78.38%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 13th September 2022, 09:27 AM   #1
Hercules56
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Right to self defense with guns?

Basic question: should the American people have a right to defend their homes and themselves with guns?

I say yes, but they must get training and a background check. If you're law abiding, not mentally ill and a danger to yourself and others, you should have the right to protect your home, your family and yourself with a gun.

Not a machine gun with a 100 round magazine, but a semi-auto gun with no more than 10 round magazine.

What say you? Please vote in poll.

Last edited by Hercules56; 13th September 2022 at 09:28 AM.
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Old 13th September 2022, 09:35 AM   #2
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I say yes, because it is so easy for criminals to get guns and there are so many guns in circulation in the US.

The UK only confers the right to carry a gun for self-defence on a very limited number of people, such as some police and security services personnel. But, someone in the UK who has a licenced firearm can use that firearm for self-defence, if they can justify that level of force. However, I cannot think of any time that has happened.
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Old 13th September 2022, 09:57 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Basic question: should the American people have a right to defend their homes and themselves with guns?

I say yes, but they must get training and a background check. If you're law abiding, not mentally ill and a danger to yourself and others, you should have the right to protect your home, your family and yourself with a gun.

Not a machine gun with a 100 round magazine, but a semi-auto gun with no more than 10 round magazine.

What say you? Please vote in poll.
Yes If I had gotten a gun, and a Friend too travel with on the Road, I would have been better off than unarmed and traveling alone, although some Idiot Milita Movement conspiracy Theorist might now not be amoung the people Walking above Ground.
Owning a Gun means being willing to use it if you have too, my one goal was always never to have too use one for that purpose.
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Old 13th September 2022, 09:59 AM   #4
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IIRC, even the current Dahli Lama said it was reasonable to shoot to save your own life. The problem is that what most people think of as self-defense with a gun really means counterattacking, often preemptively or out of proportion to the threat.

Yes, you have an inviolate right to defend yourself with lethal force if necessary. When that force becomes justified is the hitch. Should you be obligated to try non lethal approaches first? Spend a certain amount on home security before being eligible to shoot without repercussions?

If the gun is the first option, rather than the last resort, I think a charge on the manslaughter/murder spectrum should be on the table in many cases. So both yes and no for the poll.
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Old 13th September 2022, 10:11 AM   #5
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The problem is not "the law". The problem is the irresponsible, untrained unhinged home owners who use firearms improperly resulting in accidental or negligent shootings
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Old 13th September 2022, 10:14 AM   #6
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Do I have the right to use deadly force in self defense? Yes.
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Old 13th September 2022, 10:21 AM   #7
Hercules56
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Some states only allow the use of deadly force when you are being threatened with deadly force, but your belief that you are being threatened with deadly force has to be reasonable and something that most of society would agree with.

You also cannot use deadly force against an intruder or a robber unless they have a weapon, or they are engaging in behavior that puts your or somebody else life in danger like through strangulation or rape.

Last edited by Hercules56; 13th September 2022 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 13th September 2022, 10:25 AM   #8
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My position is that out in public there should be a reasonable requirement of proportionality. But when it comes to home invasion, the privilege of a restrained response is lost.
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Old 13th September 2022, 10:29 AM   #9
Thermal
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Some states only allow the use of deadly force when you are being threatened with deadly force, but your belief that you are being threatened with deadly force has to be reasonable and something that most of society would agree with.

You also cannot use deadly force against an intruder or a robber unless they have a weapon, or they are engaging in behavior that puts your or somebody else life in danger like through strangulation or rape.
That would be pretty much any theoretical attacker, wouldn't it? Unless you could prove that another person could not rape or strangle you or someone else for some reason?

Wood bullets in low brass rounds would seem to suffice to incapacitate an attacker till you could get out of Dodge. Guns are for if you want to kill them, not protect yourself.
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Old 13th September 2022, 10:31 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My position is that out in public there should be a reasonable requirement of proportionality. But when it comes to home invasion, the privilege of a restrained response is lost.
"**** with theprest, die like the rest"
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Old 13th September 2022, 10:33 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My position is that out in public there should be a reasonable requirement of proportionality. But when it comes to home invasion, the privilege of a restrained response is lost.


I'd mostly agree with this. The problem with modern US society is that they've completely lost sight of what "proportionality" means. We have people going out of there way to defend any use of a gun in self defense, no matter how trivial the level of "provocation" might have been. There's also an undercurrent that only a gun is a legitimate form of self-defense, so that anyone who pushes or punches a person is considered a legitimate target for "self defense", regardless of what might have led the person to pushing or punching in the first place.
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Old 13th September 2022, 10:46 AM   #12
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It could be lethal popcorn, what with all that oil.
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Old 13th September 2022, 11:00 AM   #13
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I think it's basically a poor question so I won't vote either way. In the OP's post he goes on to place several restrictions that can't be or aren't even now effectively enforced.

"If you're law abiding"
: not everyone who is not law abiding has a record. Some had no record when they acquired their gun but later do break the law and just keep it. May who are law abiding end up using that gun to kill someone in a rage or domestic case, etc.

According the NYT: "From 1966 to 2019, 77 percent of mass shooters obtained the weapons they used in their crimes through legal purchases.

Not mentally ill: How does a background check determine if someone is mentally ill if they've never been reported as having a mental illness? We know many mentally ill people have legally bought guns including the Uvalde school shooter and the Tops Supermarket shooter.

Restriction on type of gun and rounds:
Not going to happen as it would be appealed by every red and some blue states and the SC would not uphold any law doing so.

"One by one, Republican-controlled state legislatures have enacted laws to undo existing gun regulations that place restrictions on the purchase and carrying of firearms, while some states, like Missouri, are challenging the federal governmentís right to impose any regulation on firearms." (NYT)

The SC recently struck down NY's law that forbid the concealed possession of a gun without a special permit.
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Old 13th September 2022, 11:04 AM   #14
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The OP seems to conflate the right to defend yourself with the right to have a gun readily available at all times. It also ignores that for the vast majority of people in the U.S. going about their daily lives, having a gun readily available is more dangerous than not having one readily available.
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Old 13th September 2022, 11:06 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Finster View Post
The OP seems to conflate the right to defend yourself with the right to have a gun readily available at all times. It also ignores that for the vast majority of people in the U.S. going about their daily lives, having a gun readily available is more dangerous than not having one readily available.
This is about rights not safety though. No one is asking are you safer with this policy, of course you aren't, but it is still your right.
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Old 13th September 2022, 11:11 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
This is about rights not safety though. No one is asking are you safer with this policy, of course you aren't, but it is still your right.
True, but there is also an impact on the safety of those around you. Seem like that should be a consideration in determining your rights vs. theirs.
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Old 13th September 2022, 11:12 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Finster View Post
True, but there is also an impact on the safety of those around you. Seem like that should be a consideration in determining your rights vs. theirs.
Clearly you are not an american.
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Old 13th September 2022, 11:15 AM   #18
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I see we've shifted from "Is X right or wrong?" to the same defensive "Oh so you're saying I don't have a right to do X?" that the wrong side of the discussion always falls back on.
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Old 13th September 2022, 11:30 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Finster View Post
The OP seems to conflate the right to defend yourself with the right to have a gun readily available at all times. It also ignores that for the vast majority of people in the U.S. going about their daily lives, having a gun readily available is more dangerous than not having one readily available.
Kind of silly to have a gun for defense, if it's not readily available for that purpose.

As for safety, part of the right is the right of each individual to decide for themselves whether it's worth the risk.
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Old 13th September 2022, 11:33 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Clearly you are not a pro-2A american.
FTFY
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Old 13th September 2022, 11:36 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Clearly you are not an american.
I am but I didnít say that is the case, only that I think it should be.
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Old 13th September 2022, 11:39 AM   #22
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I think purely from the issue of rights, yes.

We do not have the right under any circumstances to set up a booby trap or a machine gun nest or a bomb, but we do have the right to own a gun, and that implies the right to use it in a non-criminal manner.

That said, this doesn't mean it's a good idea, or that it's right or a good idea to live on the presumption that you're going to need a gun every time you open your eyes, as some people seem to think. Nor does it even mean it's right to shoot a criminal in the midst of his crime. People differ on this, and so they might, but they can differ on this and still agree that self-defense with a gun is a right, at least for an American.

Nor, for that matter, is this issue one of whether the right itself is a good idea or a good thing. The question of the moment is whether the right exists.

To say something is a right is using the word quite differently from the word describing whether doing something is right or wrong. It's rarely right to be a fool, but under many circumstances (some even quite visible in places like this forum) we have a right to be wrong.
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Old 13th September 2022, 12:34 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Finster View Post
The OP seems to conflate the right to defend yourself with the right to have a gun readily available at all times. It also ignores that for the vast majority of people in the U.S. going about their daily lives, having a gun readily available is more dangerous than not having one readily available.
Every state in the Union believes that human beings have the right to use deadly force to defend themselves, against deadly force and even to stop arson, kidnapping or rape whether or not the criminal is using a gun or even a deadly weapon.

As I have mentioned before I believe there should be strong regulations when it comes to who can possess a gun and I do believe our background check system should be able to look into mental health records but beyond that I do believe we have a right to defend ourselves with deadly force including with the use of firearms.

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Old 13th September 2022, 01:42 PM   #24
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Even though I'm very much against widespread gun ownership, I voted yes. Everyone has the right to defend life with whatever means are at hand.

And so the poll is stupid.
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Old 13th September 2022, 01:52 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Even though I'm very much against widespread gun ownership, I voted yes. Everyone has the right to defend life with whatever means are at hand.

And so the poll is stupid.
What exactly is the point to this poll? Not many people would say "no, you have to ignore a gun by your side and allow yourself to be shot".

The whole issue with guns is whether you are legitimately defending yourself, versus when you are summarily executing.
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Old 13th September 2022, 02:02 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
What exactly is the point to this poll? Not many people would say "no, you have to ignore a gun by your side and allow yourself to be shot".

The whole issue with guns is whether you are legitimately defending yourself, versus when you are summarily executing.
Honestly this is the first time I have heard someone suggest to such a thing. The idea that is substantial number of people who use a gun to defend themselves are actually committing an unwarranted execution.

Huh. Do you honestly see a difference between defending your Life with a gun and a baseball bat?

Do you believe that one has the right to defend their life with a baseball bat but not a gun?
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Old 13th September 2022, 02:10 PM   #27
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Nope. It should not be a right. It should also not be illegal under proper circumstances. But it should not be a right.

Far too much trouble and heartache and injury and death has come from misinterpreting and abusing that right as it stands. It's now become the same as having the right to hold a live hand grenade with the pin pulled in case of some "attack in my home". It may be in the constitution and all legal and states-rights and flag-wavey and stuff. But inevitably someone gets injured or killed unnecessarily. Most often it's the person holding the grenade.
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Old 13th September 2022, 02:25 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Honestly this is the first time I have heard someone suggest to such a thing. The idea that is substantial number of people who use a gun to defend themselves are actually committing an unwarranted execution.

Huh. Do you honestly see a difference between defending your Life with a gun and a baseball bat?

Do you believe that one has the right to defend their life with a baseball bat but not a gun?
Well, not quite that binary. You can be commiting a summary execution, if the threat is not as grave as you believe, or if you are playing king of the castle, and death to all who dare enter.

A bat would generally be fine with me, not swinging for the head. Broken hands or legs will give you the out you need. Hell, a gun is fine, especially if loaded with non-lethal shot (rocksalt blasts come to mind, and the wooden bullets I proposed earlier), or throw your dice with a leg shot. It's illegal, and a bat crack can kill, but those should be preferable to actively trying to kill.

To me, it's intent. Are you trying to defend your own life, or end his? "Both" isn't an honest option.
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Old 13th September 2022, 02:59 PM   #29
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Both is an entirely honest option. And guns are equalizers. Only the strong can defend themselves effectively with a club. Anyone who can defend themselves at all can defend themselves effectively with a gun.
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Old 13th September 2022, 03:27 PM   #30
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Yes. There is some violent sentiment I can't quite pin down that rubs me the wrong way about this though.

People almost go from seeing self-defense as an essential act to the killing itself being a virtue. I forgot the story but some psychopathic nutcase ambushed two young people sneaking into his home who he knew would be there and didn't call the cops. There's a shocking number of people praising his actions and defending him for that.

I think there are plenty violent thugs who can't wait to use their firearm, rather than seeing it as a necessary tool in the moment.
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Old 13th September 2022, 03:28 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Both is an entirely honest option. And guns are equalizers. Only the strong can defend themselves effectively with a club. Anyone who can defend themselves at all can defend themselves effectively with a gun.
There are plenty of documented cases of old, sick, disabled people stoping home invasions with an old .38s they had safely stored in the home. The violent invasions were made to get pain killers and some cash the invader/punks assumed the old folks had in the home.

The MO is to follow the old couple from the doctor, to the pharmacy, to the ATM and then to their home.

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Old 13th September 2022, 03:37 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Both is an entirely honest option. And guns are equalizers. Only the strong can defend themselves effectively with a club. Anyone who can defend themselves at all can defend themselves effectively with a gun.
"Defend". Don't you mean kill? Or do you mean to shoot to wound so you can legitimately escape? Or shoot Rockdale to incapacitate him long enough to save your own skin?

Or do you mean to ******* kill him? What is the re unique and tool you are using designed to do? Do you have a taser/stun gun? Pepper spray? How much do you spend on a home security system or high strength deadbolts? Invest in any body armor?

Or is it only the tool designed to kill that you have an interest in for "defense"?
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Old 13th September 2022, 03:44 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
"Defend". Don't you mean kill? Or do you mean to shoot to wound so you can legitimately escape? Or shoot Rockdale to incapacitate him long enough to save your own skin?

Or do you mean to ******* kill him? What is the re unique and tool you are using designed to do? Do you have a taser/stun gun? Pepper spray? How much do you spend on a home security system or high strength deadbolts? Invest in any body armor?

Or is it only the tool designed to kill that you have an interest in for "defense"?
You shoot to wound boys have been watch too many Lone Ranger reruns.
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Old 13th September 2022, 03:52 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
"Defend". Don't you mean kill? Or do you mean to shoot to wound so you can legitimately escape? Or shoot Rockdale to incapacitate him long enough to save your own skin?
I assume you mean rock salt.

Killing is defending. I'm not obliged to give way to a violent attacker. They are not entitled to the privilege of a restrained response. Trick shots in life or death situations are not a thing. Not everyone is deterred by less-lethal alternatives.

We have a philosophical disagreement here. Your arguments won't sway me, because they are not arguments, they are axioms. Same on my side. I do not share your beliefs.

I'm sorry this seems to be a trigger topic for you. I respectfully, out of sincere concern, invite you to not waste your time or energy trying to debate with me. Find someone who starts from similar premises to yours, and debate with them the details of whatever public policies you both believe your premises call for. If they ever show up on a ballot, I'll be sure to vote against them. That's about the most productive conversation you and I can have on this topic, I think.
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Old 13th September 2022, 03:53 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
You shoot to wound boys have been watch too many Lone Ranger reruns.
Ever been shot? Takes the fight out of you more than you might imagine.

And as I said, it's dicey. I'll continue admiring the value for life that someone shows when taking any other option available first.
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Old 13th September 2022, 03:54 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
You shoot to wound boys have been watch too many Lone Ranger reruns.
Or that one clip on YouTube where the police sniper takes all the time in the world to line up a perfect shot on a gun being held by a man sitting in a lawn chair.
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Old 13th September 2022, 03:58 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
You shoot to wound boys have been watch too many Lone Ranger reruns.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Ever been shot? Takes the fight out of you more than you might imagine.
No. But the fact is getting shot in the pinky doesn't always stop the bad guy.

Quote:
And as I said, it's dicey. I'll continue admiring the value for life that someone shows when taking any other option available first.
The point is that once amped up on mega dose of adrenaline the average person will be lucky the run the gun and hit center mass.

If the other guy valued his life he'd have stayed home.

Last edited by arayder; 13th September 2022 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 13th September 2022, 04:07 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I assume you mean rock salt.
Yes, thank you. I'm considering defending myself against my autocorrect in days of late.

Quote:
Killing is defending. I'm not obliged to give way to a violent attacker. They are not entitled to the privilege of a restrained response. Trick shots in life or death situations are not a thing. Not everyone is deterred by less-lethal alternatives.

We have a philosophical disagreement here. Your arguments won't sway me, because they are not arguments, they are axioms. Same on my side. I do not share your beliefs.

I'm sorry this seems to be a trigger topic for you. I respectfully, out of sincere concern, invite you to not waste your time or energy trying to debate with me. Find someone who starts from similar premises to yours, and debate with them the details of whatever public policies you both believe your premises call for. If they ever show up on a ballot, I'll be sure to vote against them. That's about the most productive conversation you and I can have on this topic, I think.
Agreed. Not trying to be antagonistic, either. Its more to banter viewpoints for the readers. Hear all perspectives and all that, food for thought.
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Old 13th September 2022, 05:14 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Well, not quite that binary. You can be commiting a summary execution, if the threat is not as grave as you believe, or if you are playing king of the castle, and death to all who dare enter.

A bat would generally be fine with me, not swinging for the head. Broken hands or legs will give you the out you need. Hell, a gun is fine, especially if loaded with non-lethal shot (rocksalt blasts come to mind, and the wooden bullets I proposed earlier), or throw your dice with a leg shot. It's illegal, and a bat crack can kill, but those should be preferable to actively trying to kill.

To me, it's intent. Are you trying to defend your own life, or end his? "Both" isn't an honest option.
From what I understand its very difficult to aim for someone's arm or leg, or non-vital organ. The easiest thing to do when in danger it to aim for center mass, shoot, then run away.

But of course even if you are good enough to hit an arm or leg, they still may bleed to death. But honestly, that's not the fault of the victim of the crime now is it?

Why are we concerned about a criminal trying to rape, kidnap or rob someone, dying from his injuries? Why should we care? They are the bad guy, remember?

Mind you, I believe if you can safely & effectively flee the bad guy, I believe you should legally be required to do so. But if you can't safely do so, and you do have a gun, blast away. I feel no pity for bad people.
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Old 13th September 2022, 05:19 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Yes. There is some violent sentiment I can't quite pin down that rubs me the wrong way about this though.

People almost go from seeing self-defense as an essential act to the killing itself being a virtue.
Necessary killing should be seen as a virtue. People shouldn't feel guilty about doing the right thing. They shouldn't be made to feel guilty about it, either. It's not a happy thing, and it's not (usually) a cause for celebration, but it is a good thing, and it's not fair to hold it over someone like they did something wrong.
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