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View Poll Results: Should Americans have right to self defense with a gun?
No 8 21.62%
Yes 29 78.38%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 14th September 2022, 03:26 PM   #81
Norman Alexander
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Well...yeah. If you load a deadly weapon with deadly ammo, your intent is to make someone dead.

Kyle did so. He went far out of his way to make preparations and create the circumstsnces to make people dead. His intent was to kill. It may have been a secondary intent (swaggering around playing army being the primary), but he put people killing rounds in his people killing weapon and waltzed out into a bunch of people that would be provoked by this, then he killed some of those people.

You have a point you'd like to get to?
No need, I just made it. Thanks.
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Old 14th September 2022, 06:28 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
But what if you needed lethal ammo and all you had loaded was non-lethal? More deadly to throw the gun at the perp, yeah?

Or vice versa. Lethal loaded but only non-lethal needed. You choose either not to shoot (so why bring a gun at all), or severely harm or kill some trivial perp and become an unnecessarily vicious monster.

Basic question: How do you know what you will need to load in advance? You don't know.
Not so difficult in a multiple shot weapon. Start low, go higher.
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Old 14th September 2022, 06:54 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
But what if you needed lethal ammo and all you had loaded was non-lethal? More deadly to throw the gun at the perp, yeah?

Or vice versa. Lethal loaded but only non-lethal needed. You choose either not to shoot (so why bring a gun at all), or severely harm or kill some trivial perp and become an unnecessarily vicious monster.

Basic question: How do you know what you will need to load in advance? You don't know.
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Not so difficult in a multiple shot weapon. Start low, go higher.
Does that mean you load the first couple rounds as non-lethal ones and if they don't do the trick the next few rounds are lethal ones?

Might not work in a semi-auto due to cycling issues* but it would work in a revolver.

The problem comes if you really need to kill the attacker with the first shot but all you got is a rubber bullet in the first couple of chambers.

----------------

*edit:

From Concepts in Ammunition https://www.conceptsinammunition.com.../FAQ/index.htm

Will your ammunition cycle a semi automatic weapon.

Answer: No, our ammunition like many other non lethal or sport shooting ammunition will NOT cycle a semi or fully automatic weapon. The delicate balance between less than lethal and lethal is so fine that in order to provide a product that cycles these weapons we change into lethal rounds. We are working on it.

Last edited by arayder; 14th September 2022 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 14th September 2022, 08:26 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Not so difficult in a multiple shot weapon. Start low, go higher.

That is a very compassionate approach, that allows the victim of the crime to assume even more risk.

If we have gotten to the point where I have to use a gun to defend myself, family, or home...well, you are getting the real bullets. If they happen to kill you, so be it.
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Old 14th September 2022, 09:39 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
But what if you needed lethal ammo and all you had loaded was non-lethal? More deadly to throw the gun at the perp, yeah?

Or vice versa. Lethal loaded but only non-lethal needed. You choose either not to shoot (so why bring a gun at all), or severely harm or kill some trivial perp and become an unnecessarily vicious monster.

Basic question: How do you know what you will need to load in advance? You don't know.
Have pepper spray and a gun.

if somebody is messing with your property or you think you need to use non-lethal force to stop them from doing some sort of wrongful behavior you spray them.

If you reasonably believe that you are about to be the victim of an attack that constitutes an imminent danger to you resulting in your death or serious bodily injury then you use the gun.

Unlike cops, private citizens have no duty to stop the attack or the wrongful act. You can run like hell and never get charged with a crime. You don't have to carry the spray and/or the gun.

Last edited by arayder; 14th September 2022 at 09:55 PM.
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Old 15th September 2022, 07:00 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
That is a very compassionate approach, that allows the victim of the crime to assume even more risk.

If we have gotten to the point where I have to use a gun to defend myself, family, or home...well, you are getting the real bullets. If they happen to kill you, so be it.
Sir, this is a Wendy's. You can have a free refill if you ask.
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Old 15th September 2022, 08:31 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
That is a very compassionate approach, that allows the victim of the crime to assume even more risk.

If we have gotten to the point where I have to use a gun to defend myself, family, or home...well, you are getting the real bullets. If they happen to kill you, so be it.
I stand at least partially corrected, not being an expert in semi-automatic feed issues, but if one were using, say, a pump action shotgun, as some people recommend, it would not be such a big deal to make the first one rock salt, the second bird shot, and the rest buck shot.

I haven't shot a variety of ammo with my .22 semi-automatic pistol, which lives in a drawer and is not expected to be called on for quick defense, but I do suspect also that one could mix regular with hollow point bullets.
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Old 16th September 2022, 05:50 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I stand at least partially corrected, not being an expert in semi-automatic feed issues, but if one were using, say, a pump action shotgun, as some people recommend, it would not be such a big deal to make the first one rock salt, the second bird shot, and the rest buck shot.

I haven't shot a variety of ammo with my .22 semi-automatic pistol, which lives in a drawer and is not expected to be called on for quick defense, but I do suspect also that one could mix regular with hollow point bullets.
Consider another night stand gun, friend.

The 22 semi-auto is under powered and often unreliable.

My pick would be a six round revolver that can shoot .38 or .357. It can lay in the drawer for years and still work when you need it to.

Last edited by arayder; 16th September 2022 at 06:01 AM.
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Old 16th September 2022, 06:41 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Consider another night stand gun, friend.

The 22 semi-auto is under powered and often unreliable.

My pick would be a six round revolver that can shoot .38 or .357. It can lay in the drawer for years and still work when you need it to.
I live in an area and a style that makes the need for a nightstand gun rather slim, and with luck that will continue. The .22, though I suspect it could prove lethal in a pinch, and has so far never jammed, was bought in 1946 as a target pistol*, and hopefully will never be anything but.

My point was simply that I don't think it's entirely impossible to load at least some weapons with ammo of varying lethality.

*mentioned before, I think: my mother, who bought it, used to use a magazine cover photo of Joe McCarthy.
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Old 16th September 2022, 07:36 AM   #90
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The idea that you can rely on the police to get to you in 1 minute to save your life after an intruder has broken in, is crazy. I think anyone who lives in a house or in a poorly served city in apartment building should own a shotgun for home defense.
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Old 16th September 2022, 07:42 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
My point was simply that I don't think it's entirely impossible to load at least some weapons with ammo of varying lethality.

Part of the problem is that they're loading guns which were designed from the ground up with the assumption that the rounds fired would have certain defined characteristics, those being the characteristics of the standard, lethal rounds.

I'm sure if someone wanted to, they could design a new gun that was capable of firing a selection of rounds as suggested*. The question is, would there be a market for such a weapon?



*For example, how about a handgun based on the Metal Storm principle?
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Old 16th September 2022, 07:44 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
The idea that you can rely on the police to get to you in 1 minute to save your life after an intruder has broken in, is crazy. I think anyone who lives in a house or in a poorly served city in apartment building should own a shotgun for home defense.
Say, should have the right to decide for themselves whether to own a shotgun, and to be able to get one without any significant regulatory obstacles if they decide they want one, and we're on the same page.
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Old 16th September 2022, 08:34 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Say, should have the right to decide for themselves whether to own a shotgun, and to be able to get one without any significant regulatory obstacles if they decide they want one, and we're on the same page.
I fully support comprehensive criminal and other background checks to make sure you are safe to possess a gun.
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Old 16th September 2022, 09:01 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
The idea that you can rely on the police to get to you in 1 minute to save your life after an intruder has broken in, is crazy. I think anyone who lives in a house or in a poorly served city in apartment building should own a shotgun for home defense.
Disagreed. Not everyone is prepared to kill at an eyeblinks notice. Such people should not have guns. Save gun ownership for those who are mentally, emotionally, and tactically ready to kill in confusing nighttime circumstances (recall Oscar Petorious and the dad's killing their daughters sneaking in).

Of course, those criteria would probably eliminate the bulk of people in the US. Especially the tactical part. How many gun owners have "dry run" which directions they could shoot in to prevent hitting a person or gas appliance on the other side of sheetrock walls or Windows?
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Old 16th September 2022, 09:01 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Part of the problem is that they're loading guns which were designed from the ground up with the assumption that the rounds fired would have certain defined characteristics, those being the characteristics of the standard, lethal rounds.

I'm sure if someone wanted to, they could design a new gun that was capable of firing a selection of rounds as suggested*. The question is, would there be a market for such a weapon?



*For example, how about a handgun based on the Metal Storm principle?
True enough much of the time, and not worth going on and on about, but I do think that some weapons, including revolvers and pump action shotguns, would not have such a problem.
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Old 16th September 2022, 09:26 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I live in an area and a style that makes the need for a nightstand gun rather slim, and with luck that will continue. The .22, though I suspect it could prove lethal in a pinch, and has so far never jammed, was bought in 1946 as a target pistol*, and hopefully will never be anything but.

My point was simply that I don't think it's entirely impossible to load at least some weapons with ammo of varying lethality.

*mentioned before, I think: my mother, who bought it, used to use a magazine cover photo of Joe McCarthy.
I hope that works for you. Be careful. 22's are not that reliable, but I repeat myself.

Another option is to get a semi-auto pistol in a man stopping round with a magazine safety. That means you can load the gun, charge it (i.e. jack a round into the chamber). Then when you take the magazine out the gun won't fire.

You can keep the mag safe, put it in the gun when you need it and bingo you have a working handgun.

You have to be careful because if you leave the magazine laying around somebody who doesn't know beans about gun safety can find the mag, put it in the gun, figure out the safety if there is one and then have a loaded "condition 1" firearm in their hands.

This is probably more than you wanted to know.
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Old 16th September 2022, 09:44 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Disagreed. Not everyone is prepared to kill at an eyeblinks notice. Such people should not have guns. Save gun ownership for those who are mentally, emotionally, and tactically ready to kill in confusing nighttime circumstances (recall Oscar Petorious and the dad's killing their daughters sneaking in).

Of course, those criteria would probably eliminate the bulk of people in the US. Especially the tactical part. How many gun owners have "dry run" which directions they could shoot in to prevent hitting a person or gas appliance on the other side of sheetrock walls or Windows?
I suggest to that armed people just don't leave their bed rooms during a break in. If you are somewhere else in the house when the trouble starts go to the bedroom. It becomes the safe room. Just lock the door and call 911. When and if Johnny Bad Guy starts to break into the bed room door you can shout out a verbal warning and shoot later only if needed.

But don't out looking for the bad guy. This gets you around the problem of shooting the drunk neighbor or the pizza delivery guy you found when you went around "clearing your house".

If there are children in the house one of their rooms become the safe room.
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Old 16th September 2022, 10:28 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Just drop the euphemisms and own it.
This is the kind of thing false-accusers end up saying when they bump into the fact that their chosen targets simply aren't saying what they want to accuse them of saying.
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Old 17th September 2022, 05:54 AM   #99
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I have a long police career, (50 years) and an even-longer experience with firearms.

I have always maintained that “combat shooting” is a martial art as much as any other, and that mastering that art implies not only mastering the physical techniques, but also the mental attitudes and an understanding of the legalities and the liabilities involved.

It seems to me from my various firearms-related forums that “home defense” is much more about the gun than any of the above. “Look at my home-defense setup!” The fellow says, displaying his latest optical-sighted, extended-magazine, flashlight-equipped “pistol” AR.
This to protect hearth and home from….. Well, whatever.

But unless you’re involved in the drug trade or an elderly person with a lot of accumulated valuables stowed in your house, your chances of being the victim of a “home invasion” (an armed robbery of a residence) are minimal.
And a burglary will happen when you’re not there, and the burglars will be happy to sell your treasured firearm in a back alley somewhere.

I believe in the old principal, “You don’t need a gun very often, but when you do you need one really bad.” But again, that implies responsibility. I’m tempted to quote Spider-Man…..
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Old 17th September 2022, 08:45 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
I suggest to that armed people just don't leave their bed rooms during a break in. If you are somewhere else in the house when the trouble starts go to the bedroom. It becomes the safe room. Just lock the door and call 911. When and if Johnny Bad Guy starts to break into the bed room door you can shout out a verbal warning and shoot later only if needed.

But don't out looking for the bad guy. This gets you around the problem of shooting the drunk neighbor or the pizza delivery guy you found when you went around "clearing your house".

If there are children in the house one of their rooms become the safe room.
This is the heart of the dry run thing. See, I wouldn't recommend a single thing to someone else till I played 20 questions about their home situation. In my home, for example, the bedrooms are on the second and third floors.It would pull far too much time to hustle everyone upstairs at an eyeblinks notice. I further wouldn't want my family trapped upstairs, as there is no other escape, and no guarantee I will win a shootout, or indeed get to a loaded firearm in time.

In my crib, the general rule for kids or guests is if there is serious trouble in the house, buddy up and GTFO by the door farthest from the problem. Let Thermal and the dog deal with headaches, from intruders to fires to hurricanes. I don't want my kids to be part of, or witness, anything ugly.
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Old 17th September 2022, 08:55 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Not so difficult in a multiple shot weapon. Start low, go higher.
You better be able to put significant distance between you and the bad guy while you climb the lethality ladder. Stopping power isn't as cut and dry as many think.
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Old 17th September 2022, 10:31 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
This is the kind of thing false-accusers end up saying when they bump into the fact that their chosen targets simply aren't saying what they want to accuse them of saying.
Ya it's also the kind of thing people say when the Department of War gets rebranded as the Department of Defense, then acts aggressively.
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