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Tags DeSantis , electioneering , florida , immigration

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Old 17th September 2022, 10:04 PM   #161
Norman Alexander
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Massachusetts is a "sanctuary state" due to a state Supreme Court ruling.
No it isn't.

There are some effectively sanctuary cities in Massachusetts, but it is not a "sanctuary state". The state Supreme Court did not make it a sanctuary state officially. Certainly, Martha's Vineyard is not any "sanctuary" anything.

Quote:
In 2017, Massachusetts' top state court ruled that Massachusetts court officers do not have the authority to arrest someone suspected of being in the U.S. illegally if that person is not facing criminal charges, the state's highest court ruled Monday. That's effectively gave the state sanctuary status.

But for years, advocates have tried to get a bill that would codify sanctuary status in Massachusetts, and it hasn't passed, despite Democrats, who tend to support sanctuary status more than Republicans, controlling the Legislature.
https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local...state/2835474/
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Old 17th September 2022, 10:08 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
No it isn't.

There are some effectively sanctuary cities in Massachusetts, but it is not a "sanctuary state". The state Supreme Court did not make it a sanctuary state officially. Certainly, Martha's Vineyard is not any "sanctuary" anything.



https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local...state/2835474/

Oh, ok. So it is only "effectively" a sanctuary state, but not an official one.

Glad we cleared that up.
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Old 17th September 2022, 10:11 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Oh, ok. So it is only "effectively" a sanctuary state, but not an official one.

Glad we cleared that up.
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Old 17th September 2022, 10:16 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Moot!



Whether or not Massachusetts is a sanctuatry state is completely irrelevant. These are not illegal immigrants, they are asylum seekers awaiting a court decision on their status
Agreed, but I was responding to two posts that raised the issue and got it wrong.

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Old 17th September 2022, 10:16 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Oh, ok. So it is only "effectively" a sanctuary state, but not an official one.

Glad we cleared that up.
Glad you agree. Because Florida is also a "sanctuary state", in that there are cities in Florida which are "sanctuary cities", despite what DeSantis says. In fact, in opposition to what DeSantis says.

Quote:
A federal judge has ruled that a Florida law banning municipalities from adopting "sanctuary" policies for immigrants in the U.S. illegally is unconstitutional, with her decision relying in part on support for the law among "anti-immigrant hate groups."

U.S. District Judge Beth Bloom in Miami said in a 110-page ruling on Tuesday the 2019 law championed by Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, a Republican, violated the Equal Protection Clause of the U.S. Constitution because it was adopted with discriminatory motives.
https://www.reuters.com/legal/litiga...al-2021-09-22/


So if DeSantis wanted to tweak the libz, he should have shipped the LEGAL migrants from Texas to Miami-Dade. That's a sanctuary city in his own state.

But he didn't. Because he's a putrid ****.
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Old 17th September 2022, 10:18 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
No it isn't.



There are some effectively sanctuary cities in Massachusetts, but it is not a "sanctuary state". The state Supreme Court did not make it a sanctuary state officially. Certainly, Martha's Vineyard is not any "sanctuary" anything.







https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local...state/2835474/
The wired passage says that the court effectively ruled its a sanctuary state, whether or not a law was passed saying the same.


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Old 17th September 2022, 10:21 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Glad you agree. Because Florida is also a "sanctuary state", in that there are cities in Florida which are "sanctuary cities", despite what DeSantis says. In fact, in opposition to what DeSantis says.





https://www.reuters.com/legal/litiga...al-2021-09-22/





So if DeSantis wanted to tweak the libz, he should have shipped the LEGAL migrants from Texas to Miami-Dade. That's a sanctuary city in his own state.



But he didn't. Because he's a putrid ****.
No. The court ruled that MA cops can't arrest someone just for their immigration status. Isn't that the heart of the sanctuary movement?

Florida is not the same.

(As smartcooky says, none of this applies to asylum seekers. )

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Old 17th September 2022, 10:22 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I'm not sure if you are aware, but the claim is that DHS did the above.




Basically, as soon as I see the above highlighted, I know I'm not bothering to answer you. The "internet interrogator" method of debate is amusing, though.
And this coming from the guy who kept demanding we answer his question 'yes or no' about a hypothetical law for a situation that doesn't exist.
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Old 17th September 2022, 10:27 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
And this coming from the guy who kept demanding we answer his question 'yes or no' about a hypothetical law for a situation that doesn't exist.

You have really missed the point. Posing 5-10 different "yes or no" questions, followed by a "answer and only then have you earned the right to elaborate" is quite a different animal. It is a stupid and bullying debate tactic. There was nothing "hypothetical" about the single question I was posing.
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Old 17th September 2022, 10:29 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
You have really missed the point. Posing 5-10 different "yes or no" questions, followed by a "answer and only then have you earned the right to elaborate" is quite a different animal. It is a stupid and bullying debate tactic.
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Old 17th September 2022, 10:44 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
And this coming from the guy who kept demanding we answer his question 'yes or no' about a hypothetical law for a situation that doesn't exist.
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
You have really missed the point. Posing 5-10 different "yes or no" questions, followed by a "answer and only then have you earned the right to elaborate" is quite a different animal. It is a stupid and bullying debate tactic.
And we can't forget that once cornered on a subject our guy says he isn't going to talk about it anymore.
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Old 17th September 2022, 11:05 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
And we can't forget that once cornered on a subject our guy says he isn't going to talk about it anymore.

"Cornered" on what, exactly? I've already said that I am ok with what DeSantis did, as I see it as minor compared to what the Dems are endorsing with sanctuary states and cities.

I also said that it is not something I would have done personally, and that I am glad the migrants are being cared for.

I can't help it if certain parties refuse to read what has been posted prior, or even research the source material.
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Old 17th September 2022, 11:07 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I would suggest you get your facts in order before proclaiming falsehoods. Look at the source material, and prior posts. Then you won't be asking redundant questions. I've more than answered the questions you posed. In fact, I have made numerous comments on the DHS issue, which I consider more outrageous than what DeSantis has done. The involvement of a federal agency in document falsification is pretty curious.
I have looked at the source material, it says the DHS intentionally inserted false entries on their documentation, listing their addresses as randomly chosen homeless shelters all over the USA? These are facts that are not in dispute.

So, rather than keep dodging the question, give us your honest answer... are you OK with what the DHS did in inserting false addresses into the asylum seeker's records... yes or no.
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Old 17th September 2022, 11:12 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I have looked at the source material, it says the DHS intentionally inserted false entries on their documentation, listing their addresses as randomly chosen homeless shelters all over the USA? These are facts that are not in dispute.

So, rather than keep dodging the question, give us your honest answer... are you OK with what the DHS did in inserting false addresses into the asylum seeker's records... yes or no.

Hard to make it more clear: I am not losing sleep over any of it. The line items don't matter.

As I have also said before, if the law was broken, those individuals should be held accountable. If that isn't going to happen, I don't want to hear any whining about it. As you are fond of saying, someone needs to "put up or shut up", from a legal standpoint.
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Old 17th September 2022, 11:16 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
"Cornered" on what, exactly? I've already said that I am ok with what DeSantis did, as I see it as minor compared to what the Dems are endorsing with sanctuary states and cities.

I also said that it is not something I would have done personally, and that I am glad the migrants are being cared for.

I can't help it if certain parties refuse to read what has been posted prior, or even research the source material.
Nope, all you have done is dodged, but since you are repeating this assertion that you are OK with what was done, then I can only assume that your answers to all the questions I posed in post #152, namely....

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yes or No: Are you OK with the Florida Government directly lying to them about where they were being sent to and what was waiting for them at their destination?

Yes or No: Are you OK with the Florida Government giving them documentation with deliberately misleading instructions?

Yes or no: Are you OK with the DHS intentionally inserting false entries on their documentation, listing their addresses as randomly chosen homeless shelters all over the USA?

Yes or no: Are you OK with the Florida Government deliberately giving them the wrong agency with which to update their addresses?

Yes or No: Are you OK with the Florida Government arranging for them to have court appearances all over the country that they could not possibly have any way to get to.
... would be "yes". I'll take any failure to answer as your agreement!

PS: I know you think this is bullying tactics, but bullying tactics seem to be the only thing you understand - everyone else has been more that reasonable in trying to engage with you, but to no avail.
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Old 17th September 2022, 11:25 PM   #176
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I should also add, most of what is being reported is from claims made by "angry Jane Curtin", from the twitter vid that was linked. Lets see how those claims are supported by evidence that stands up in court, and the legality of the actions, before we proclaim them as fact.

If it ever gets to court, that is. And if it doesn't, or does without successful prosecution, I don't want to hear any more of this weakling whining from the left.
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Old 18th September 2022, 01:15 AM   #177
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It's telling that Republicans will automatically dismiss anything they don't like if it's done so "angrily", but everything they do like gets extra credibility with it's pronounced angrily.
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Old 18th September 2022, 02:05 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I should also add, most of what is being reported is from claims made by "angry Jane Curtin", from the twitter vid that was linked. Lets see how those claims are supported by evidence that stands up in court, and the legality of the actions, before we proclaim them as fact.
What part of "the woman's name is Rachel Self", which I told you on page 2, don't you understand? I can only assume you continue to use "angry Jane Curtin" deliberately to be offensive. At least you've moved on from "split tail" and "hag"...for now.

Quote:
If it ever gets to court, that is. And if it doesn't, or does without successful prosecution, I don't want to hear any more of this weakling whining from the left
What? You've drunk enough liberal tears?

Damn Lefties and their concern for other people! How weak is it to care that people who risked their lives to get to this country for a better life for them and their children were lied to by DeSantis and his recruiters? It's OK to lie to them and use them for his own personal political games as long as he's never prosecuted for it! Stupid libs don't get it: it's ok if you get away with it. It's their own fault if they believed it when they were told they would be given jobs. Idiots should have known they're not legally able to even apply for work authorization until six months after applying for asylum!

Quote:
Everlides Dela Hoz, a mother and grandmother, recalled the grueling journey to the U.S. during which she saw people in her group of travelers die from heart attacks, drowning and a snake bite.

After finding themselves in Martha's Vineyard, many expressed feelings of uncertainty as they wondered what may come next for them. Others, promised jobs and housing, felt lied to.

“When we got on the plane, they told us they would give us jobs, a place to live, everything,” Dela Hoz said through a translator. “The whole group is pretty upset. But they did take us to a nice place.”

"I simply feel misled because they told a lie and it has come to nothing," Pedro Luis Torrelaba, 36, said Friday.
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Old 18th September 2022, 03:06 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
The wired passage says that the court effectively ruled its a sanctuary state, whether or not a law was passed saying the same.


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This is the soft version of "Yeah, you gonna make me?"

The subsequent paragraph says it is not OFFICIALLY, LEGALLY a sanctuary state, despite various efforts to make it so. So when it comes down to legalities, it is not. Abbott and DeSantis saying so does not make it so.
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Old 18th September 2022, 03:07 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
No. The court ruled that MA cops can't arrest someone just for their immigration status. Isn't that the heart of the sanctuary movement?

Florida is not the same.

(As smartcooky says, none of this applies to asylum seekers. )

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No it did not. Are you having trouble reading? Do I have to spell this out for you? Try again.
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Old 18th September 2022, 04:53 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
This is the soft version of "Yeah, you gonna make me?"

The subsequent paragraph says it is not OFFICIALLY, LEGALLY a sanctuary state, despite various efforts to make it so. So when it comes down to legalities, it is not. Abbott and DeSantis saying so does not make it so.
No, that's not what it means.

You're right that MA never passed a law outlawing police arrests of illegal immigrants for their status. But the Court ruled that is the law of the land. So, since that's what folks mean when they use the term "sanctuary", MA is a sanctuary state.

The notion that there is an OFFICIAL or LEGAL sense of "sanctuary city/state" is just silly.

Perhaps you're just misunderstanding the second paragraph you quoted.

[quote]
But for years, advocates have tried to get a bill that would codify sanctuary status in Massachusetts, and it hasn't passed, despite Democrats, who tend to support sanctuary status more than Republicans, controlling the Legislature.
[quote]

That's not saying they're trying to make sanctuary status "official" or "legal". It's just saying that they'd like to put it in the state legal code. For one thing, that makes it less likely to disappear if the state Supreme Court changes its mind. For another, it's getting the message out that this is what the state (legislature) wants, that it's not just something that happened to them in the courts, but that they support it.

The second paragraph doesn't say a damned thing about "OFFICIAL" or "LEGAL".

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Old 18th September 2022, 05:34 AM   #182
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Note to moderators: all this bickering about whether Mass is a "sanctuary state" is irrelevant to the topic, since none of the immigrants sent to Martha's Vineyard were illegal immigrants. It's merely a case of poisoning the well.
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Old 18th September 2022, 05:43 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Note to moderators: all this bickering about whether Mass is a "sanctuary state" is irrelevant to the topic, since none of the immigrants sent to Martha's Vineyard were illegal immigrants. It's merely a case of poisoning the well.
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Old 18th September 2022, 05:50 AM   #184
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Quote:
Many migrants who cross into the United States via the Southwest border are immediately expelled to Mexico or other countries under a COVID-19 pandemic policy. But some nationalities, including Venezuelans, cannot be expelled because Mexico will not accept them and many seek to apply for U.S. asylum.
DeSantis defends Martha's Vineyard migrant flights, suggests more to come
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/tea...ff-2022-09-16/


So basically many of those Venezuelans transported to Martha's Vineyard likely arrived as illegals. But since Mexico doesn't want them, we let them apply for asylum? They can't be expelled, unlike others. Pathetic.

And here people want to crow that they aren't illegals. Well, they should be.
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Old 18th September 2022, 06:05 AM   #185
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It was a crass political stunt designed to appeal the racist, xenophobic rubes - and it's obviously worked as intended.
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Old 18th September 2022, 06:29 AM   #186
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It was a crass political stunt designed to energize DeSantis' base. And it obviously worked. Anti-immigration has always been a hot-button issue and a staple of the right including in Europe. But I've noticed a basic contradiction in DeSantis' rhetoric. DeSantis "blames" President Biden for not doing enough to stop illegal immigration at a time when a record number of arrests have been made on the US-Mexican border.
Quote:
Ron DeSantis blamed Democratic President Joe Biden for what he portrayed as a failure to stop migrants from crossing the U.S.-Mexico border, as a record 1.8 million have been arrested this fiscal year. Reuters news link
Meanwhile, many people find the whole thing to be crazy. A state government 'rounding up' people in another state? Then sending them to a third state? This is America?
Quote:
The legal basis for the Florida government to round up migrants in a different state remained unclear. U.S. government attorneys are exploring possible litigation around the governors' efforts, a Biden administration official told Reuters.
What if the governor of Connecticut 'rounded up' the asylum-seekers in Massachusetts and sent them back to Texas? Would that...

Oh wait, I forgot.

Decent people don't do things like that.
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Old 18th September 2022, 07:14 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Note to moderators: all this bickering about whether Mass is a "sanctuary state" is irrelevant to the topic, since none of the immigrants sent to Martha's Vineyard were illegal immigrants. It's merely a case of poisoning the well.
One reason it's relevant is that DeSantis himself (or at least his press secretary) said that he aimed to send immigrants to sanctuary cities/states.

Quote:
"Here are all the Florida house reps and senators who voted for this year’s budget, including the funding for transporting illegal migrants out of Florida into sanctuary states. Almost every Dem voted for it. Now they’re calling a criminal for following through," Christina Pushaw tweeted.
You're right that asylum seekers are not illegal immigrants, but whether DeSantis actually sent the asylum seekers to a sanctuary locale is relevant (as is the fact that the migrants were transported to Florida before being transported out of Florida -- great use of FL taxpayer funds).

As far as poisoning the well goes, I don't see how. For one thing, poisoning the well has to do with dismissing an argument before it's heard, usually due to some form of ad hominem or genetic fallacy. And, in any case, whether the Vineyard is in a sanctuary state or not has little to do with whether DeSantis's action was reasonable, compassionate or otherwise justifiable. Perhaps the discussion is slightly off-topic, if that, but I don't see those who say MA is reasonably called a sanctuary state (including me) as defending what DeSantis did.

What DeSantis did is reprehensible from where I sit, but one can't complain that Martha's Vineyard doesn't fit his stated goal of moving migrants from Florida to a sanctuary state. Now, the "from Florida" bit on the other hand...

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Old 18th September 2022, 07:17 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
DeSantis "blames" President Biden for not doing enough to stop illegal immigration at a time when a record number of arrests have been made on the US-Mexican border.
I noticed that too. But then the target audience of such theatrics isn't exactly known for its critical thinking skills. Not that that's a problem for people like DeSantis. Totalitarianism 101, first day of class, the lesson is that the sort of power any aspiring despot really desires - the sort of power that lets you do pretty much anything you want - needs the support of an army of angry morons who can be manipulated through their fears and bigotries. I think the most damaging aspect of the Trump presidency isn't his actual occupation of the office - it's the lessons he taught, however unknowingly, about how to potentially seize power. I think the Republican Party as it now is, has spent years looking at the kleptocracy in Russia with envy. The thought of someone more conniving and less impulsive using a playbook based on Trump's strategies is deeply concerning.
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Old 18th September 2022, 07:22 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
What DeSantis did is reprehensible from where I sit, but one can't complain that Martha's Vineyard doesn't fit his stated goal of moving migrants from Florida to a sanctuary state. Now, the "from Florida" bit on the other hand...
His "well, a lot of them come to Florida from Texas" was especially pathetic. So I guess the same logic would hold if he'd sent Venezuelans to Martha's Vineyard from Mexico.
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Old 18th September 2022, 07:28 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
His "well, a lot of them come to Florida from Texas" was especially pathetic. So I guess the same logic would hold if he'd sent Venezuelans to Martha's Vineyard from Mexico.
Yeah, Florida taxpayers should be genuinely pissed that DeSantis spent money to transport migrants from Texas to Florida to Massachusetts. Even ignoring the truly shabby treatment of the migrants, some of whom may lose their court dates and perhaps their application, it's really a matter of spending taxpayer money for personal political gain.

But he couldn't have done this trick with asylum seekers who arrived in Florida, because such folks are usually Cuban and that wouldn't go over well with his voters. Or at least that's what one guest on NPR said, but I haven't the details of the program.
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Old 18th September 2022, 07:31 AM   #191
Foster Zygote
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
But he couldn't have done this trick with asylum seekers who arrived in Florida, because such folks are usually Cuban and that wouldn't go over well with his voters. Or at least that's what one guest on NPR said, but I haven't the details of the program.
Ah, yes. Now that makes sense.
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Old 18th September 2022, 07:43 AM   #192
newyorkguy
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
...the migrants were transported to Florida before being transported out of Florida -- great use of FL taxpayer funds...
I wonder if there was some arcane legal reason for bringing the migrants to Florida from Texas while en route to Massachusetts. Or some statutory requirement. Or was it only so the Florida state employee or DeSantis staffer assigned to make a video record of the arrival in Martha's Vineyard could board the plane? It's also been widely reported:
Quote:
DeSantis admitted that the state of Florida has not seen “any major movements of people into Florida.”
DeSantis told a reporter in Orlando the people flown from Texas to Massachusetts "intended to come to Florida." But there's no evidence of that I don't think.

Great comment on Twitter:
Quote:
Anyone remember the movie "The minority report"? They think you'll commit a crime some time in the future and then they arrest you for that future crime... DeSantis must have thought that was brilliant!
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Old 18th September 2022, 09:01 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
I suspect DeSantis counted on the residents of Martha's Vineyard being all aghast at the poor minorities suddenly dropped into their privileged midst, thus confirming how liberals are all a bunch of hypocrites at heart. Only the good people of MV didn't get the script, and instead rallied around the victims of DeSantis's callous cruelty.

That's both the horror and the fatal flaw of DeSantis and his ilk, they actually believe deep down everyone thinks like them.
Right now the cheerleaders for this aren't counting on it at all. They're just pretending it's so whether it's accurate or not. Plays well in the intended crowd.
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Old 18th September 2022, 09:17 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
So basically many of those Venezuelans transported to Martha's Vineyard likely arrived as illegals. But since Mexico doesn't want them, we let them apply for asylum? They can't be expelled, unlike others. Pathetic.

And here people want to crow that they aren't illegals. Well, they should be.
Your xenophobia is on full display. The idea that you have to use twisted logic to pull it off shows just how willful your bigotry is.

Pathetic!
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Old 18th September 2022, 09:22 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
The thought of someone more conniving and less impulsive using a playbook based on Trump's strategies is deeply concerning.
D is far more intelligent and realistic that Trump and yes HE might be far, far more dangerous to our Republic.
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Old 18th September 2022, 11:29 AM   #196
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It did a long time ago

Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Watching you shuck and jive never loses its entertainment value.
Yes it does.
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Old 18th September 2022, 11:37 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
. . .I've already said that I am ok with what DeSantis did, as I see it as minor compared to what the Dems are endorsing with sanctuary states and cities.
.
Some time ago when questioned you said people have a God given human right to immigrate and apply for asylum. But when some do just that you chortle in delight when DeSantis interrupts the application process by shipping them off to another state.

And your justification for this abrogation of a human right is that the Democrats did something you think is worse?

Talk about a race to the moral bottom.
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Old 18th September 2022, 12:08 PM   #198
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
DeSantis defends Martha's Vineyard migrant flights, suggests more to come
[url]https://www.reuters.com/world/us/tears-uncertainty-migrants-depart-marthas-vineyard-amid-political-standoff-2022-09-16/[/ur

So basically many of those Venezuelans transported to Martha's Vineyard likely arrived as illegals. But since Mexico doesn't want them, we let them apply for asylum? They can't be expelled, unlike others. Pathetic.

And here people want to crow that they aren't illegals. Well, they should be.
Stating a legal fact when correcting false claims they are illegals isn't 'crowing'.

'Compassionate Conservative': found under 'oxymoron' in the dictionary. Or it should be.
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Old 18th September 2022, 12:09 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
It was a crass political stunt designed to appeal the racist, xenophobic rubes - and it's obviously worked as intended.
Ain't that the truth.
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Old 18th September 2022, 12:56 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Seems like good optics so far. The progressive one percenters on the island aren't really doing their faction any favors in all this.

It's almost like any American who actually wants more illegal immigrants only really wants them somewhere else.
This sentiment came and went pretty quick in this thread because it just couldn't stand up to the facts of what actually happened. However, I keep seeing it pop up on the other social media sources out there. Is there some justification for this that I'm just not seeing or is it just completely made up propaganda?
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