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Old 17th October 2017, 04:28 PM   #561
Ranb
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
If you want to claim that there are no functional differences among firearms, that's for you to support.
I was not saying that at all. Why would you get that at all?

I was asking you to support your claims with something, or anything at all. Being evasive when asked to do so doesn't really cut it.
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Old 17th October 2017, 06:20 PM   #562
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
If you want to argue that revolvers and bolt-action rifles are as dangerous as semi-autos, that would seem to be an argument for tighter restrictions on them, too.
Yeah, that's where you were always going with that.
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Old 17th October 2017, 08:27 PM   #563
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I was not saying that at all. Why would you get that at all?

I was asking you to support your claims with something, or anything at all. Being evasive when asked to do so doesn't really cut it.
It should be self-evident that in most hands, a revolver or bolt-action rifle will throw less lead downrange in any given time span than a pistol or an AR15 with high-capacity magazines, and much less over any extended span. Gee, could that be the reason police traded their revolvers for semi-autos? But I'm not willing to look for an expert to say so, so believe what you want. I can't prove the sun will rise in the east tomorrow, either.

As to the guy in Las Vegas, he obviously thought he needed 23 semi-auto rifles to accomplish his goals. Whether he expected to use each one until the barrel overheated, or whether he thought it would be faster to pick up another gun than to switch magazines, or whether he pre-aimed them at different targets or what, we'll probably never know. He had stacks of loaded magazines that he never touched. But it seems pretty clear that he intended -- and was equipped -- to do even more damage than he did, and could never have done with, say, a Remington 700.
http://time.com/4964666/madalay-bay-las-vegas-shooting/
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Old 17th October 2017, 09:38 PM   #564
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I think the Monarchy functions as a super figurehead which generates a lot of money and goodwill for the country.

I like the idea of lots to be in the Lords, but I do not see how it would work. How much would people earn? How long would they serve?
I think they could still play that role but without being the head of state. She could still be the head of the Church though for all I care.

I think I like the queen as a person, I don't like Charles at all, think he is a waste of space. The new generation though seem down to earth and likeable enough.

Question is with this system, what happens if and when we get a total moron for a king or Queen? Though I suppose having the head of state elected still have its problems as you could end up with a Trump like figure.
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Old 17th October 2017, 10:42 PM   #565
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It should be self-evident that in most hands, a revolver or bolt-action rifle will throw less lead downrange in any given time span than a pistol or an AR15 with high-capacity magazines, and much less over any extended span.
I still don't see what you are getting at. I never even hinted that anything besides a machine gun could match the rate of fire of a semi-auto rifle with a detachable magazine.

I'm still hoping you'll support some of the claims you made in earlier posts. You seem to be very reluctant to do so for some reason.
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Old 18th October 2017, 12:18 PM   #566
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Mr. Sachs wrote back to me about my comments on his article. http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/16/opinio...ion/index.html

He called his "all take and no give" proposal a compromise because "gun owners would keep their weapons, with modest limits, while others would feel much safer".

I've my doubts on the feeling much safer part. He didn't respond to my request for clarification on the unusual high powered weapons or storage requirements proposal.

He did ask my opinion on what I wanted. I told him I wanted better access to NICS by gun buyers, eliminating the NFA tax and removal of silencers from the registry. Encourage smart gun tech by requiring the police to use it and making them for sale along side standard guns.
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Old 19th October 2017, 03:29 PM   #567
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Study: 3 million Americans carry loaded handguns daily

Quote:
Most are male, and cite protection as primary reason; 'significant' public health implications, researchers say

An estimated 3 million adult American handgun owners carry a firearm loaded and on their person on a daily basis, and 9 million do so on a monthly basis, new research indicates. The vast majority cited protection as their primary reason for carrying a firearm.

Researchers from the University of Washington School of Public Health, the University of Colorado, the Harvard School of Public Health, and Northeastern University produced the study, to be published October 19, 2017, in the American Journal of Public Health.

It is the first research in more than 20 years to scrutinize why, how often, and in what manner U.S. adults carry loaded handguns. It also examines how concealed handgun-carrying behavior differs across states, depending on their laws.

"Carrying firearms in public places can have significant implications for public health and public safety," said lead author Dr. Ali Rowhani-Rahbar, an associate professor of epidemiology at the UW School of Public Health. "An important first step to examining the consequences of firearm carrying at the national level is an accurate measurement of the occurrence of this behavior and characterization of those who engage in it."

Compared with handgun owners who did not carry, those who did report carrying handguns tended to be younger, and more often male, live in the southern United States, have grown up in firearm-owning households, self-identify as politically conservative, and own more than one type of firearm...

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_relea...-s3m101317.php
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Old 19th October 2017, 03:54 PM   #568
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Study: 3 million Americans carry loaded handguns daily




https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_relea...-s3m101317.php
And yet, as concealed carry has increased, homicide rates have decreased. Real-world evidence based conclusion: no significant public health implications.
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Old 19th October 2017, 04:40 PM   #569
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
The cultural values are the result of a long term effort by the gun lobby to exaggerate the fear of crime and normalize keeping loaded guns within reach out of fear that the boogyman will invade your home at any moment.
That’s an interesting take.
What percentage of homicides would you estimate arise from someone wrongly killing a person they thought was a home invader?

It would seem to me there is more than one aspect or type of “gun culture” and conceal carry security types or military wanna-be’s that manufacturers actively market to account for very few murders in the grand scheme of things.
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Old 20th October 2017, 12:58 PM   #570
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
That’s an interesting take.
What percentage of homicides would you estimate arise from someone wrongly killing a person they thought was a home invader?

It would seem to me there is more than one aspect or type of “gun culture” and conceal carry security types or military wanna-be’s that manufacturers actively market to account for very few murders in the grand scheme of things.
Just last week a jury in my town found a clean cut good guy with a gun guilty of murder. He used the handgun he always kept in his pickup truck to blow away his girlfriend when she tried to dump him. Two days ago three people were killed and one injured by gunfire in my town. Details are still sketchy, but the deceased guy with one shot to the head appears to have been romantically involved with one of the deceased victims. Fragile male egos and firearms are not a good combination.

As for the military wanna-be's, the Las Vegas shooter looked like he was in that category before he opened fire. The Aurora theatre shooter looked just like any other guy obsessed with tactical weapons before he shot up the theatre. The Columbine shooters were just a couple of kids having good clean fun with firearms before they started shooting at classmates.
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Old 20th October 2017, 01:11 PM   #571
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Fragile male egos and firearms are not a good combination.
Indeed. Maybe only women should be allowed to own guns?
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Old 21st October 2017, 10:13 AM   #572
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Poll finds Las Vegas shooting doesn’t alter opinions on guns

Originally Posted by Washington Post
The slaying of five dozen people in Las Vegas did little to change Americans’ opinions about gun laws, a poll finds.

The nation is closely divided on whether restricting firearms would reduce such mass shootings or homicides, though a majority favors tighter laws as they have for several years, according to the poll from The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research.

The massive divide on stricter limits remains firmly in place.

The survey was conducted from Oct. 12-16, about two weeks after 64-year-old Stephen Paddock fired on a crowded musical festival taking place on across the street from his hotel room, killing 58 and wounding more than 540 before killing himself.

In this latest survey, 61 percent said the country’s gun laws should be tougher, while 27 percent would rather see them remain the same and 11 percent want them to be less strict. That’s similar to the results of an AP-GfK poll in July 2016.

Nearly 9 in 10 Democrats, but just a third of Republicans, want to see gun laws made stricter...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...a22_story.html
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Old 21st October 2017, 09:29 PM   #573
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I think the ATF is once again going to do nothing about bump stocks because they still don't convert a weapon to automatic fire. (The NRA asked the ATF to review them right after the Vegas massacre.) I think the NRA and most Republicans are going to fight against Congress banning bump stocks because doing that won't prevent me from bump-firing my AR15. The only way to do that is to confiscate it because I can bump-fire it just using my belt loop, and we don't want to get started down that road. Something most people don't realize is the AR15 has been around since 1963 and this is the first time I know of it has been bump-fired in a crime.

Also, machine guns made before 1986 are still legal in this country and lots of people have them. But, given supply and demand, they are very expensive.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 10:50 AM   #574
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
I think the ATF is once again going to do nothing about bump stocks because they still don't convert a weapon to automatic fire.
Tell that to the journalists out there.

Quote:
(The NRA asked the ATF to review them right after the Vegas massacre.)
This is rather disingenuous of them to do so knowing that the ATF can't really reverse their previous decision.

Quote:
I think the NRA and most Republicans are going to fight against Congress banning bump stocks because doing that won't prevent me from bump-firing my AR15.
Good luck trying to explain this to people on the forum.

Quote:
The only way to do that is to confiscate it because I can bump-fire it just using my belt loop, and we don't want to get started down that road.
Some people who want to get started down that road and arrive at the end with anything that auto loads banned or severely restricted. I can bump fire my ar-15 from the shoulder. I've watched others bump fire their single action pistols such as a 1911.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 10:56 AM   #575
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post



Some people who want to get started down that road and arrive at the end with anything that auto loads banned or severely restricted. I can bump fire my ar-15 from the shoulder. I've watched others bump fire their single action pistols such as a 1911.
Presumably you would consider yourself to be pretty well trained with using firearms.

Bump stocks are probably not aimed at people like you.

How easy is it to bump fire your AR-15 with minimal training? How easy is it to bump fire an AR-15 with a bump stock conversion, if you have minimal training?
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Old 22nd October 2017, 11:45 AM   #576
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I was able to bump fire my ar-15 with a bit of practice without a slide fire stock. It was hard to get through an entire mag without it stopping. I had to keep constant pressure pushing forward while resisting the urge to hold the pistol grip firmly and pull the stock into my shoulder.

I tried a slide fire stock equipped ar-15 that a member of the public brought to the range years ago. While I was able to keep the stock more firm against my shoulder, I still had problems dumping the whole mag at once. The owner who was more experienced with it was also unable to dump an entire mag at once. I was also constantly at his side to ensure he didn't overshoot the five foot tall safety berm 25 yards in front of him as the bump fire was very wild.

With more practice I would have surely become more proficient with bump fire using either method. But since I was trained to use aimed fire (in the Navy) I always thought bump fire was a rather foolish way to hit a target and still do. I really hadn't ever considered the possibility that I'd be in a position to shoot at a crowd 8 acres large from 400 yards away.

Considering that prolonged rapid fire leads to very high temperatures which can cause malfunctions (gas tube damage, bolt fouling/failure) in a sporting rifle like the AR-15, I never thought that spray and pray was the way to go. Now if I had multiple guns on hand to accomplish my evil deeds, then that would be a different story.

I still don't know which guns Paddock used. For now I suspect that he probably used an AR-15 in 5.56/223 Remington with a large mag and slide fire stock. If he managed to use a single rifle for the carnage that day I'd be a bit surprised.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 11:57 AM   #577
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I was able to bump fire my ar-15 with a bit of practice without a slide fire stock. It was hard to get through an entire mag without it stopping. I had to keep constant pressure pushing forward while resisting the urge to hold the pistol grip firmly and pull the stock into my shoulder.

I tried a slide fire stock equipped ar-15 that a member of the public brought to the range years ago. While I was able to keep the stock more firm against my shoulder, I still had problems dumping the whole mag at once. The owner who was more experienced with it was also unable to dump an entire mag at once. I was also constantly at his side to ensure he didn't overshoot the five foot tall safety berm 25 yards in front of him as the bump fire was very wild.

With more practice I would have surely become more proficient with bump fire using either method. But since I was trained to use aimed fire (in the Navy) I always thought bump fire was a rather foolish way to hit a target and still do. I really hadn't ever considered the possibility that I'd be in a position to shoot at a crowd 8 acres large from 400 yards away.

Considering that prolonged rapid fire leads to very high temperatures which can cause malfunctions (gas tube damage, bolt fouling/failure) in a sporting rifle like the AR-15, I never thought that spray and pray was the way to go. Now if I had multiple guns on hand to accomplish my evil deeds, then that would be a different story.

I still don't know which guns Paddock used. For now I suspect that he probably used an AR-15 in 5.56/223 Remington with a large mag and slide fire stock. If he managed to use a single rifle for the carnage that day I'd be a bit surprised.
That's the thing. Bump stocks seem almost perfectly designed for civilian spree shooting into a large are. After all, the military have proper fully automatic rifles, as well as machine guns. Normal civilian uses will have aimed fire too.
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Old 8th November 2017, 10:06 PM   #578
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Maybe somebody should have gone to jail. But what some rogue ATF agents in one office did -- which apparently resulted in arrests of dozens of gunrunners -- was hardly official government policy, and doesn't have anything to do with the thousands of gun deaths every year from millions of guns in the hands of people who shouldn't have them.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/27/world/...cts/index.html
I have yet to read a more disingenuous comment on any law enforcement program.

This wasn't two Bubba's on a toot behaving badly, it was an operation that was directed and approved by both senior ATF officials and the DOJ.

If you wish to assert that the death of a border patrol agent and the killing or injury of 150 Mexican nationals by the weapons that were allowed to "walk" by this operation somehow don't count because it "was hardly official government policy" have at it, but it makes your assertions that gun owners and the N.R.A. are O.K. with murder look pretty hypocritical.

From The L.A. Times:

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-...004-story.html

Senior Justice Department officials were aware that ATF agents allowed firearms to be "walked" into Mexico, according to a series of emails last year in which they discussed two undercover operations on the Southwest border, including the failed Fast and Furious program.

In the emails that the department turned over to congressional investigators, Justice Department officials last October discussed both the Fast and Furious gun-trafficking surveillance operation in Phoenix and a separate investigation from 2006 and 2007 called Operation Wide Receiver. In Wide Receiver, which took place in Tucson, firearms also were acquired by illegal straw purchasers and lost in Mexico, the emails say.
...

Fast and Furious ran from fall 2009 to January, culminating in charges against 20 people — none of them cartel leaders. It was unclear whether any indictments were issued in the Wide Receiver operation....

Justice Department officials said Atty. Gen. Eric H. Holder Jr. routinely received reports about myriad ongoing investigations around the country, and that the reports did not disclose that ATF agents were purposely "walking" the weapons. They said Issa received a similar Fast and Furious update last year.

But congressional investigators said the memos suggested Holder had hedged what he knew.

According to the emails, Holder was told generally about Fast and Furious in the memos in July, October and November 2010, well before he told congressional committees he had first learned of the program.


And from the well know propaganda arm of the N.R.A., National Public Radio:

https://www.npr.org/2011/05/05/13602...r-agents-death

Congressional Republicans say more than a dozen whistleblowers have come forward to express their concerns about the danger of Operation Fast and Furious. That includes ATF agents, their supervisors, and even an Arizona gun dealer.

The unnamed dealer sent e-mails to agents in Arizona last year, six months before Terry's death, warning them that he had a bad feeling. In the messages, the dealer said he was worried the guns would make their way to Mexico and be used by "bad guys."


Even an evil licensed gun dealer had issues with the program and attempted to somehow put the brakes to it.

From Fortune magazine:

http://fortune.com/2012/06/27/the-tr...rious-scandal/

The agents faced numerous obstacles in what they dubbed the Fast and Furious case. (They named it after the street-racing movie because the suspects drag raced cars together.) Their greatest difficulty by far, however, was convincing prosecutors that they had sufficient grounds to seize guns and arrest straw purchasers. By June 2010 the agents had sent the U.S. Attorney’s office a list of 31 suspects they wanted to arrest, with 46 pages outlining their illegal acts. But for the next seven months prosecutors did not indict a single suspect.

On Dec. 14, 2010, a tragic event rewrote the narrative of the investigation. In a remote stretch of Peck Canyon, Ariz., Mexican bandits attacked an elite U.S. Border Patrol unit and killed an agent named Brian Terry. The attackers fled, leaving behind two semiautomatic rifles. A trace of the guns’ serial numbers revealed that the weapons had been purchased 11 months earlier at a Phoenix-area gun store by a Fast and Furious suspect.


Ten weeks later, an ATF agent named John Dodson, whom Voth had supervised, made startling allegations on the CBS Evening News. He charged that his supervisors had intentionally allowed American firearms to be trafficked—a tactic known as “walking guns”—to Mexican drug cartels. Dodson claimed that supervisors repeatedly ordered him not to seize weapons because they wanted to track the guns into the hands of criminal ringleaders. The program showed internal e-mails from Voth, which purportedly revealed agents locked in a dispute over the deadly strategy. The guns permitted to flow to criminals, the program charged, played a role in Terry’s death.

The gun dealer noted in the NPR piece expressed his concerns - but did not go public - 8 months before Dodson broke ranks with ATF. The dealer feared retaliation against him as a licensee and as a cooperating individual in the operation, and he wasn't the only one. From AZcentral:

http://archive.azcentral.com/arizona...ious-fall.html

...the Bush administration launched Project Gunrunner, an umbrella campaign to combat firearms smuggling along the Southwestern border. ATF agents conducted surveillance to find legal grounds to arrest the straw buyers. Over time, they seized more than 10,000 weapons and indicted scores of low-level criminals. (Big difference in effectiveness between Gunrunner and Fast and Furious, I wonder why?)

But straw buyers were easily replaced, the gunrunning continued and Mexico's mayhem escalated. In four years, more than 35,000 people died. While Calder who pressed his U.S. counterparts to stem the flow of weapons, law enforcement struggled to block smuggling operations....

Dodson's fears were compounded by guilt after Terry's death and by outrage at what he perceives as a cover-up.

He turned for advice and support to colleagues who were not assigned to the case, Jay Dobyns and Vince Cefalu, two agents so disgruntled with management that they help operate an Internet site, cleanupatf.org, assailing ATF leaders with accusations of corruption, cronyism and incompetence.

Dobyns is an undercover investigator who gained national celebrity several years ago for penetrating the Hells Angels Motorcycle Club during an Arizona sting operation. In civil-court filings, he alleges that bureau bosses failed to provide proper protection for his family when death threats were made, retaliated when he complained, then sabotaged the investigation of an arson fire at his Tucson home. Dobyns says the agency he loves is run by arrogant and dishonest managers. "Fast and Furious is a prime example of that," he adds. "They refused to listen to anything from the field employees."

Cefalu, a special agent for 24 years, was notified by ATF in June that he is being fired and is accused of giving false testimony in a criminal case and making unauthorized disclosures. He has challenged the allegations and contends that his termination is retaliation for efforts to expose Fast and Furious.

When Terry was killed, Dobyns says, Dodson sought advice about becoming a whistle-blower. "I told him, 'You are going to be train-wrecked because that's what they (ATF managers) do,' " Dobyns recalls saying.


Personal disclosure - I'm professionally acquainted with Vince Cefalu. I have no knowledge of the ATF charges against him and no knowledge of the veracity of the charges.

To sum it up - contrary to your handwaving, this is one of the most serious federal law enforcement failures in modern history. It isn't anything close to what you portrayed it to be.
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Old 8th November 2017, 10:27 PM   #579
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
I think the ATF is once again going to do nothing about bump stocks because they still don't convert a weapon to automatic fire. (The NRA asked the ATF to review them right after the Vegas massacre.) I think the NRA and most Republicans are going to fight against Congress banning bump stocks because doing that won't prevent me from bump-firing my AR15. The only way to do that is to confiscate it because I can bump-fire it just using my belt loop, and we don't want to get started down that road. Something most people don't realize is the AR15 has been around since 1963 and this is the first time I know of it has been bump-fired in a crime.

Also, machine guns made before 1986 are still legal in this country and lots of people have them. But, given supply and demand, they are very expensive.
All they need do is throw the stocks into the N.F.A. under the "any other weapon" category.

Gun concealment holsters (holsters designed to actually conceal the complete firearm that allow the gun to be fired from concealment) and operational briefcases (a briefcase designed to allow a machine pistol to be fired from inside the case) are already included in one way or another (The briefcases can be owned without the tax stamp, unless you have a firearm that can be fired from inside the case)

It's similar to what the ATF did WRT the USAS-12 shotgun, the Street sweeper and the Striker shotguns. In that example they declared the shotguns to be Destructive Devices and IIRC they had something like a 6 year amnesty period for registration of existing examples to be registered.

http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/atfruling.2001-1.txt
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Old 9th November 2017, 07:13 AM   #580
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
All they need do is throw the stocks into the N.F.A. under the "any other weapon" category.

Gun concealment holsters (holsters designed to actually conceal the complete firearm that allow the gun to be fired from concealment) and operational briefcases (a briefcase designed to allow a machine pistol to be fired from inside the case) are already included in one way or another (The briefcases can be owned without the tax stamp, unless you have a firearm that can be fired from inside the case)

It's similar to what the ATF did WRT the USAS-12 shotgun, the Street sweeper and the Striker shotguns. In that example they declared the shotguns to be Destructive Devices and IIRC they had something like a 6 year amnesty period for registration of existing examples to be registered.

http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/atfruling.2001-1.txt
I figure that is what is going to happen to those firearms that have short barrels but do not count as short barreled shotguns because they never had a long barreled version first. They will be declared to have no sporting use, and as having a bore diameter over 0.50" they automatically become NFA weapons.
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Old 9th November 2017, 11:39 AM   #581
BStrong
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I figure that is what is going to happen to those firearms that have short barrels but do not count as short barreled shotguns because they never had a long barreled version first. They will be declared to have no sporting use, and as having a bore diameter over 0.50" they automatically become NFA weapons.
The "Sporting Use" rationale is a direct result of the Gun Control Act of 1968, and it exists because the major firearms manufacturers at that time objected to the flood of inexpensive military surplus bolt action rifles that were being sold mail order.

Instead of going down to the local gun store and picking out a new Winchester model 70, lots of folks bought surplus rifles at 30% or less of the price of the new 70 and proceeded to either turn them into a pretty good hunting or target rifle or what we've come to describe as "Bubbaing" the poor thing into a useless paperweight.

Somehow the 'Sporting Use" test the manufacturers supported was then applied to imported handguns, and the rest is history.
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Old 16th November 2017, 02:10 PM   #582
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A while back I posted about how one of the reasons we don't have much progress in actual common sense gun control is the politicians who write stupid bills or assume that the voters are just plain dumb enough to believe what they say.

https://enewspf.com/2017/10/05/illin...merican-lives/

Quote:
Congresswoman Kelly joined her colleagues in introducing legislation to ban “bump stocks,” a device that functionally converts semi-automatic weapons into fully automatic weapons.
Bump stocks don't do that. The BATFE says she's wrong.

Quote:
“Machine guns were outlawed
They aren't.

Quote:
for a reason
I doubt she knows why.

Quote:
and devices that turn a firearm into machine guns should be outlawed as well,” said Congresswoman Kelly.
Those devices are generally called auto-sears; they're already controlled by the NFA of 1934 as amended in 1986.

https://robinkelly.house.gov/media-c...-would-refocus
Quote:
The amendment calls for taxes on shells and cartridges for semi-automatic weapons to be increased “by such a number of percentage points as is necessary to fully offset any deficits which result by reason of the preceding provisions of this Act.”
I'm unable to find the amendment to the bill she has submitted. But if the reporter writing this piece has accurate details, it will increase taxes on nearly every round of ammo sold in the USA. I'm not certain how her amendment will identify semi-auto cartridges, but nearly every center fire metallic cartridge with an overall length of under 3.7 inches (94mm) can be chambered in a semi-auto firearm. Some semi-auto firearms will handle much larger cartridges.

Even some Democrats will not support this kind of legislation, especially since it affects the poor and middle class more than the rich.

Last edited by Ranb; 16th November 2017 at 02:18 PM.
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