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Old 3rd October 2017, 10:29 PM   #81
PhantomWolf
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There is not. Simply firing.fast does not make it automatic.
equivalent
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Old 3rd October 2017, 10:33 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
could it be that he owns guns but isn't a gun nerd?
Nope. It seems he's never fired a gun faster than 1 round per 2 seconds which is more than enough to heat up some barrels.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 10:35 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'm pretty sure there is a consensus the rapid fire was the equivalent of automatic fire.
Where was this consensus?

Quote:
Do you think people can pull a trigger that fast?
When bump firing it is the person's finger depressing the trigger for each shot. Rocking the rifle back and forth against the trigger finger is faster than pressing and releasing the trigger for each shot though.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 11:03 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Nope. It seems he's never fired a gun faster than 1 round per 2 seconds which is more than enough to heat up some barrels.
Why would one want to shoot that fast when target shooting?
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Old 3rd October 2017, 11:13 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Very nice example of the rule of so.

He didn't say "People that own guns are stupid," he said that "People who own guns for the reason of believing that doing so is an expression of freedom are stupid."

Yup. Exactly! I own firearms, and I'm not stupid.

I own a Remington 700, .270 centrefire bolt-action which I use for pig, goat, and deer hunting. I have a couple of boxes of 20 Federal Power Shok 130 gr at any given time. I own a Beretta model 686 over/under shotgun which I use for a couple of weeks each year for duck shooting. I have no ammunition at home for this as I usually buy it fresh just prior to the season opening in May. Finally, I have a Savage M12 .243 Win... this is my "fun gun" I don't keep any ammunition at home for this, I usually buy what I want when I go to the range (the only place I shoot it) and I use it all up.

In spite of all this, am I for gun control? You bet I am. In fact, I don't believe NZ gun control laws are tight enough. As it is, you must have a Firearms Licence in order to own a firearm, and you must present that licence when buying a firearm or ammunition. There is however, no registration of ownership required for Category A, the most common type (all three of mine are Cat A).

IMO All firearms should be registered in the same way that vehicles are registered and under the same rules. You register the firearm, using its serial number. If a firearm is sold or its ownership is transferred, both the seller and the buyer should have 14 days to register change (which can be done online and will require the input of a valid and current Firearms Licence number). If the owner wishes to dispose of a firearm without selling they must take it to a Police Station or a Registered dealer to be spiked.

A firearms licence should also be required to purchase parts for a firearm, and you may only purchase parts from a dealer, and they can only be parts for a firearm that you are the registered owner of.

Possession of an unregistered firearm should carry a very heavy fine, should incur immediate revocation of your Firearms Licence, and confiscation of any firearms in your possession even if registered.

Ownership, sale, distribution and manufacture of all of the following is either illegal already or should be made illegal if its not;
Suppressors
Silencers
Bump stocks
Any device, kit or instructions that can be used to modify any firearm's rate of fire
Rifle magazines that hold over 10 rounds
Shotgun magazines that hold over 5 shells (except pump action)
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Old 3rd October 2017, 11:21 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Philosophers, psychologists, economists, political scientists. People who actually rationally and formatively development arguments and evidence on what laws should and should not be.

Pish Posh! Maybe it's that way in the BobtheC-verse, but in the Elagabalean-verse, I can assure you, things are much different. Bwahahahahahahaha ...
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Old 4th October 2017, 01:20 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Suppressors
Silencers
These two I'm not so much in agreement with. The idea seems to be that from Hollywood where with a silencer/suppressor no one is going to hear the gunshot, but in reality you're dropping the shot from about 175 dB to 120 dB. While that is a large amount given that it's a logarithmic scale, it's still reducing a extremely loud bang to a really really loud bang. Firing off a 120 dB shot beside your ear without hearing protection could permanently damage your hearing, so it's not exactly quiet!
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Old 4th October 2017, 01:56 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Does somebody need a hug?
Not from a gun nut. I need them to stop allowing people to die wholesale.
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Old 4th October 2017, 01:58 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
So every gun owner is stupid?
Every gun "rights" supporter is certainly culpable in the deaths of these people.
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Old 4th October 2017, 01:59 AM   #90
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Silencers not only reduce the volume of a shot, they also change it qualitatively.
People might not recognize single shots for what they are, which is the point.

In the present case, it would have made no difference, of course.

But neither does it make a difference for hunting (as the current GOP bills claims), since animals don't care what the noise sounds like.
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Old 4th October 2017, 02:14 AM   #91
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Whatever steps the USA can take to reduce deaths and accidents from firearms will take generations to reduce deaths and accidents from firearm usage to levels like say Canada.

Gun control and the USA in particular was the first "road to Damascus" experience I had on this forum. Many years ago I would have said "you need the great gun control laws my country has if you want to significantly reduce the number of accidents and deaths". But that was naive and really didn't look at the whole reason why - particularly in the USA - there are so many deaths and accidents caused by firearm usage.

Of course there is an obvious link to the number of firearms and accidents and deaths from firearm usage - if there were no firearms they'd be no deaths or accidents caused by firearm usage - but the issue in the USA is not really about the number of firearms or the percentage of the population that owns firearms it is about the USA's culture in regards to firearms.

Firearm control laws will only significantly "progress*" if the culture changes, those campaigning for stricter firearm controls need to shift their attention from laws to the culture if they want change.


*if you consider stricter controls progress of course
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Old 4th October 2017, 02:38 AM   #92
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Keep those guns, it's working so well,

Pro gun advocates simply have no conception how the rest of the world sees them.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/37334683...-gun-lobbyist/
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Old 4th October 2017, 02:50 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There is not. Simply firing.fast does not make it automatic.
I'm sure all those people thought about that while they were being shot.
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Old 4th October 2017, 03:47 AM   #94
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America isn't ready for effective gun control laws - yet.
Only a popular Republican President could get such laws passed, and the chances of Trump doing it are nil.
But the demographics of gun ownership suggest that less and less people would be affected by a ban (and confiscation) of certain types of guns. It seems that people are sorting themselves back into small "militias" for their gun hobby, and as such the political cost of regulating their weapons might soon be worth the gains.
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Old 4th October 2017, 04:27 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Every gun "rights" supporter is certainly culpable in the deaths of these people.
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Old 4th October 2017, 04:34 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Every gun "rights" supporter is certainly culpable in the deaths of these people.
Is every car owner responsible for the idiots who plow through crowds with lorries?

Your statement is nonsensical. You're not responsible for the actions of others. Look, I'm deathly scared of guns, but I don't deny people their right to own weapons for defense, sport or leisure. I am, however, in favour of sensible gun control measures.
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Old 4th October 2017, 05:01 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Is every car owner responsible for the idiots who plow through crowds with lorries?
Craig4 was referring to gun "rights" supporters - the people who are pressing for little or no controls over who can own guns, how many and what kind. IMO the driving equivalent would be people who advocate abolishing driving licences and driving tests or perhaps getting rid of DWI laws - if such people exist.

Under those circumstances driving "rights" people would IMO be responsible for any spike in driving deaths. It's not a perfect analogy though.

Among the reasons why the body count is so high is that Stephen Paddock had a lot of weapons and ammunition with him in his hotel room, those weapons had a sufficiently long range and the rate of fire of those weapons was very high. If he had a single barrel-loading musket he might still have killed people but nothing like the number. Gun "rights" proponents want people to continue to have tens or hundreds of high powered weapons, tens or hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammunition and for people to have the freedom to own whatever kind of weapons they want regardless of their state of mental health.
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Old 4th October 2017, 05:05 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Every gun "rights" supporter is certainly culpable in the deaths of these people.
I find those terms acceptable.
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Old 4th October 2017, 05:11 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Craig4 was referring to gun "rights" supporters - the people who are pressing for little or no controls over who can own guns, how many and what kind.
Well guns are a right in the US. It's the law of the land. I'm not sure what you call "rights supporters" are indeed by and large pressing for little or no controls. But regardless, they're still not responsible for other people's actions.

Quote:
If he had a single barrel-loading musket he might still have killed people but nothing like the number.
Well, I don't disagree that there are restrictions that should apply; not every weapon should be available for civilians. What if I want a rocket launcher?
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Old 4th October 2017, 05:20 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
They are not equivalent because automatic weapons are not defined by their rate of fire.
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Old 4th October 2017, 05:23 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Silencers not only reduce the volume of a shot, they also change it qualitatively.
People might not recognize single shots for what they are, which is the point.
Can you recognize the sound of your neighbor's lawn mower? They're equipped with sound suppressors.
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Old 4th October 2017, 05:59 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Whatever steps the USA can take to reduce deaths and accidents from firearms will take generations to reduce deaths and accidents from firearm usage to levels like say Canada.

Gun control and the USA in particular was the first "road to Damascus" experience I had on this forum. Many years ago I would have said "you need the great gun control laws my country has if you want to significantly reduce the number of accidents and deaths". But that was naive and really didn't look at the whole reason why - particularly in the USA - there are so many deaths and accidents caused by firearm usage.

Of course there is an obvious link to the number of firearms and accidents and deaths from firearm usage - if there were no firearms they'd be no deaths or accidents caused by firearm usage - but the issue in the USA is not really about the number of firearms or the percentage of the population that owns firearms it is about the USA's culture in regards to firearms.

Firearm control laws will only significantly "progress*" if the culture changes, those campaigning for stricter firearm controls need to shift their attention from laws to the culture if they want change.


*if you consider stricter controls progress of course
Many Americans don't understand that hunting and shooting sports culture isn't the same as the firearms for self defense and militia movement culture.

The rural hunting tradition has nothing to do with keeping bump fire stocks and drum magazines legal.
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Old 4th October 2017, 06:04 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Why would one want to shoot that fast when target shooting?
When they want to compete in an event which scores them on speed and accuracy. You're being ironic yes?

Edited by Agatha:  Edited breach of rule 12

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Old 4th October 2017, 06:07 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
But neither does it make a difference for hunting (as the current GOP bills claims), since animals don't care what the noise sounds like.
I'm fairly certain most hunters who use silencers care about the noise reduction. Who have you asked?
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Old 4th October 2017, 06:08 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
.... What if I want a rocket launcher?
Then you're dealing with the BATFE and sometimes the FAA. It's still doable.
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Old 4th October 2017, 06:12 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Many Americans don't understand that hunting and shooting sports culture isn't the same as the firearms for self defense and militia movement culture.

The rural hunting tradition has nothing to do with keeping bump fire stocks and drum magazines legal.
A deprecatory term used by “enthusiasts” for the guns-for-sport-only folks is “Fudd”.
As in, Elmer Fudd.

They refer to “Fudd gun stores”, for instance.

Here’s part of the mindset. Within hours of the shooting, dealers were selling out of of bump-fire stocks and similar accessories. “Got to get mine before they’re banned”.

Years ago, when the so-called “assault weapons ban” was passed, my brother-in-law immediately went out and bought several AKs. Proved to be a good investment; by the time the ban was allowed to expire, they had greatly increased in value.
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Old 4th October 2017, 06:12 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
When they want to compete in an event which scores them on speed and accuracy.
I don't think Hercules claimed to compete in shooting events.
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Old 4th October 2017, 06:24 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by mikado View Post
Keep those guns, it's working so well,

Pro gun advocates simply have no conception how the rest of the world sees them.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/37334683...-gun-lobbyist/
I'm pretty sure most gun advocates aren't looking for the rest of the world's approval.

Which is vastly overrated, anyway.

This signature is intended to irradiate people.
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Old 4th October 2017, 06:26 AM   #109
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Craig4 has inspired me to stop by the gun club after work and do some plinking.
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Old 4th October 2017, 08:15 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I don't think Hercules claimed to compete in shooting events.
I was directing that comment towards you.
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Old 4th October 2017, 08:23 AM   #111
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I used to try and argue for gun control, but after the Pulse shooting I snapped a little. It was clear that the only gun control that was going to be discussed by people that have actual influence was the type that wouldn't help anyway (some of which are based on, essentially, which guns *look* scary) and even those weren't going to be passed.

I also got into a few too many "debates" with absolute gun nuts that were incapable of formulating a coherent argument. So I gave up on being reasonable. Maybe this extended temper tantrum will end, although with the frequency of these things I doubt it - more likely I'll just continue being the one yelling "FINE! YOU KNOW WHAT? NOW I *DO* WANT TO COME AND TAKE ALL YOUR GUNS!" and frothing a bit.

It's not like it matters.

Most of the bad arguments are ones you've probably all heard before, but I did get one from an old friend on Facebook (we're... no longer friends) that I thought was really unique in its horribleness:

"If you try to take my guns I will have to kill you, and murder is bad therefore you should let me keep my guns." (not an exact quote but I promise that's actually the whole argument)

I mean... wow. Just wow.
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Old 4th October 2017, 09:19 AM   #112
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Exactly what situation are people preparing for which requires an individual to be able to kill 50 people in 10 seconds? Get real, necromongers. If you ever need to kill that many people that fast, you're hopelessly outnumbered and being overrun by a battalion of sappers, and you are going to die. Plus, if that is happening, you're better off dead anyway because post-apocalyptic America won't be nearly as much fun as the movies make it out to be. "Believe me".

I was a grunt in Vietnam, and I never needed to kill 50 people in 10 seconds. I could have done it in 1 second if I was expecting a mass attack and had some claymores out. But that was a dirty, bloody war, half a world away from our Shining Shore. This is America, and most of you have spent your entire lives deep inside a protective bubble which has not yet failed you if you're reading this. So, what is it, exactly, that you people are planning, that requires that kind of capability?

Inquiring minds want to know.
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Old 4th October 2017, 09:47 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Exactly what situation are people readying themselves for which requires an individual to be able to kill 50 people in 10 seconds? Get real, necromongers.
Which necromongers are talking to? Or are you shouting into the wind?
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Old 4th October 2017, 10:02 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Which necromongers are talking to? Or are you shouting into the wind?

Probably these guys:

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ETA: Lisa Jean is way hotter ... and more responsible

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Old 4th October 2017, 10:22 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
I used to try and argue for gun control, but after the Pulse shooting I snapped a little. It was clear that the only gun control that was going to be discussed by people that have actual influence was the type that wouldn't help anyway (some of which are based on, essentially, which guns *look* scary) and even those weren't going to be passed.
Pro gun people are fond of insulting people with "scary black rifles" BS. What the Vegas shootings showed was the real problem. These guns are really effective killing machines. The military look is by design, attempting to appeal to a market fascinated by firepower.

Time to cut the crap and get down to specifics. The so called "modern rifles" come with a 30 round quick change magazine developed for laying down suppression fire on the battlefield. They are not just deer rifles in a scary black color, they are a different class of weapon. If you need suppression fire while deer hunting you are doing it wrong.

So lets modernize the definition of "assault weapon" to include any center fire firearm capable of accepting a detachable magazine holding more than 15 rounds. These sit down and have a serous talk about exactly who should be allowed to posses this class of weapon and under what circumstances.

It's also time we quit pandering to the paranoid white supremacists in the militia movement. Allow BATF to monitor purchases so they can detect the guys building up an arsenal to carry out a killing spree. Current law made it easy for the Las Vegas shooter to fly under the radar.
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Old 4th October 2017, 10:25 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Which necromongers are talking to?
Till underverse come.
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Old 4th October 2017, 11:24 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
]These sit down and have a serous talk about exactly who should be allowed to posses this class of weapon and under what circumstances.
Any citizen without a criminal record for any reason.
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Old 4th October 2017, 11:26 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Exactly what situation are people preparing for which requires an individual to be able to kill 50 people in 10 seconds?
None of your business.
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Old 4th October 2017, 11:37 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Many Americans don't understand that hunting and shooting sports culture isn't the same as the firearms for self defense and militia movement culture.

The rural hunting tradition has nothing to do with keeping bump fire stocks and drum magazines legal.
I see nothing wrong with firearms for self defense.
I don't think people should be totally dependent on the state for self defense.
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Old 4th October 2017, 11:41 AM   #120
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A lot of people seem to be using this as an excuse to display their superior moral virtue to those who disagree with them.
I don't like the term "virtue signaling" and feel most of the time it is a cheap attempt to poison the well in a discussion ,but I detect a bit of it here.
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