IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Economics, Business and Finance
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 2nd August 2021, 03:27 AM   #1
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 29,890
Afterpay sold for $US29B

This is insanity: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58051815

This is exactly the kind of predatory lending we should be trying to eliminate, not propagate.

I'd love to know how many gajillion they're holding at any one time - 100 million businesses using it says it must be a very big number.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2021, 03:49 AM   #2
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 47,902
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
This is insanity: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58051815

This is exactly the kind of predatory lending we should be trying to eliminate, not propagate.

I'd love to know how many gajillion they're holding at any one time - 100 million businesses using it says it must be a very big number.
Oh come on. It is a computerised laybuy system. Something that has been around for decades.

You and I could have come up with this as itís so simple, but didnít. Good on those two young Aussies who are now the richest people in the country.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2021, 03:51 AM   #3
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 100,029
Yep.

But if we don't want to pay people enough to buy all the crap the companies want us to buy how else can people buy it? (That was sarcasm for those who need it labelled.)
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2021, 04:52 AM   #4
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Gundungurra
Posts: 10,528
They should buy out News Ltd and sack the Board.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornetsí nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2021, 03:33 AM   #5
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 29,890
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Oh come on. It is a computerised laybuy system. Something that has been around for decades.
No, it's the exact opposite of laybuy. With a laybuy, the store holds the goods until they're paid for.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2021, 09:03 AM   #6
xjx388
Moderator
Moderator
 
xjx388's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 10,064
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
This is insanity: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58051815

This is exactly the kind of predatory lending we should be trying to eliminate, not propagate.

I'd love to know how many gajillion they're holding at any one time - 100 million businesses using it says it must be a very big number.
How do you define predatory lending? Afterpay, which I have used, allows you to spread the cost of a purchase over 6 weeks, interest free. If you are late with a payment, there's an $8 charge. That's it. I don't see anything "predatory" there. It's actually pretty great as long as one is responsible with the payments.

Contrast that with payday loans, title loans and "interest free" store credit. That is predatory lending.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2021, 01:04 PM   #7
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 29,890
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
How do you define predatory lending? Afterpay, which I have used, allows you to spread the cost of a purchase over 6 weeks, interest free. If you are late with a payment, there's an $8 charge. That's it. I don't see anything "predatory" there. It's actually pretty great as long as one is responsible with the payments.
That's exactly why it's predatory - looks great, no cost, no credit checks! What could possibly go wrong?

Except the reality is that it encourages people to buy **** they can't afford, getting in arrears, then being caught in a debt trap of high default interest and fees. It's clearly hurting people.

Some people are ok with seeing this as just another tax on the stupid, but I've never been able to embrace that.

A friend of mine has an idiot 18 yo daughter who's booked up thousands of dollars in afterpay loans that she can't afford and has destroyed her credit rating before she even gets started in life. Stupid? Sure, but if you know any 18 yos who aren't complete idiots about at least one thing, let me know.

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Contrast that with payday loans, title loans and "interest free" store credit. That is predatory lending.
The fact that they are doesn't exclude other forms of credit from being predatory.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2021, 02:32 PM   #8
xjx388
Moderator
Moderator
 
xjx388's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 10,064
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
That's exactly why it's predatory - looks great, no cost, no credit checks! What could possibly go wrong?

Except the reality is that it encourages people to buy **** they can't afford,
This is true of all credit. Mortgages, car loans, credit cards, etc. I understand if you have a philosophical problem with the idea of debt, but I don't think you can characterize Afterpay as somehow more predatory than any other consumer debt.

Also, this strikes me as a moral argument about people buying **** they can't afford. Which isn't even true: It's also used by people like me who could certainly afford to pay cash right now, but would rather pay smaller amounts over time if it's the same as cash. Even so, it's not really the fault of the "Buy now/Pay later" loan industry if people abuse the system.

Quote:
getting in arrears, then being caught in a debt trap of high default interest and fees. It's clearly hurting people.
Yes, that is indeed a problem. But I don't think you can lump Afterpay into that category since there is no default interest and fees other than a late fee of $8. In the US anyway. Is it different in NZ?

See, Afterpay (again, NZ's mileage may vary) doesn't make its money by charging consumers high interest and fees. It makes its money by charging retailers who offer the service a percentage of the sale. In order to get approved, they run a credit check and then require you to give a debit card/bank details to automatically draft payments on a schedule. It's painless for those who use it responsibly. I admit that buying $5000 worth of stuff with 12 different companies is problematic when one isn't expecting to receive $5000 of income in the next couple of months.

Quote:
Some people are ok with seeing this as just another tax on the stupid, but I've never been able to embrace that.
Me neither. I'm not here to judge people but there are consequences to irresponsibility. When used responsibly these things can be a good cash management strategy.

Quote:
A friend of mine has an idiot 18 yo daughter who's booked up thousands of dollars in afterpay loans that she can't afford and has destroyed her credit rating before she even gets started in life. Stupid? Sure, but if you know any 18 yos who aren't complete idiots about at least one thing, let me know.
OK. But how was she preyed upon? She did something she should have known, even at age 18, was irresponsible. They didn't drug her and force her to take up thousands in debt. I did the same thing as a young father -too many store credit cards to get furniture and baby stuff I technically couldn't afford and ruined my credit at age 18. Took me til my mid 30's to fix it but I learned a lesson.

Quote:
The fact that they are doesn't exclude other forms of credit from being predatory.
OK. Like I said, if you see all debt as inherently predatory, I get it. I don't agree -credit is useful as long as used responsibly. It's how most of us get a home and a car.
__________________
Hello.

Last edited by xjx388; 4th August 2021 at 02:35 PM.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2021, 06:01 PM   #9
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 29,890
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
This is true of all credit. Mortgages, car loans, credit cards, etc. I understand if you have a philosophical problem with the idea of debt, but I don't think you can characterize Afterpay as somehow more predatory than any other consumer debt.
Don't be ridiculous.

Banks, legitimate finance companies and genuine lenders are forced by law to check the person's ability to pay, and there isn't one of them that doesn't do credit checks. Credit of itself isn't an issue, the world lives on it.

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Also, this strikes me as a moral argument about people buying **** they can't afford. Which isn't even true: It's also used by people like me who could certainly afford to pay cash right now, but would rather pay smaller amounts over time if it's the same as cash.
Equally ridiculous.

Because some people use it as it should be used, it's fine. Same with credit cards - if you pay the total each month, they cost nothing! Not at all predatory.

I showed you factual articles about the number of people getting themselves financially in the cart thanks to afterpay services.

The fact that most people don't have a problem with it isn't even slightly relevant. Some do.

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Even so, it's not really the fault of the "Buy now/Pay later" loan industry if people abuse the system.
I guess it's not the cigarette companies at fault if people want to buy their products, then.

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Yes, that is indeed a problem. But I don't think you can lump Afterpay into that category since there is no default interest and fees other than a late fee of $8. In the US anyway. Is it different in NZ?
Let's have a look at the reality.

Average Afterpay sale is $153

The penalties are once on missing the payment, and another if it's still overdue in seven days. The amount charged is capped at 25% of the loan value.

With an 8-week payment, we'll call it two months, or 1/6th of a year, so the effective rate charged for being seven days overdue is 300% pa.

Good business if you can get it, no wonder they got $29B for it.

I know that's not their main source of income, but it's definitely the source of the problem.

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
OK. But how was she preyed upon? She did something she should have known, even at age 18, was irresponsible. They didn't drug her and force her to take up thousands in debt. I did the same thing as a young father -too many store credit cards to get furniture and baby stuff I technically couldn't afford and ruined my credit at age 18. Took me til my mid 30's to fix it but I learned a lesson.
My mind boggles at that paragraph:

"She should have known better at age 18."
"It's exactly what I did at age 18."

I'm getting a serious dose of pot/kettle here.

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
OK. Like I said, if you see all debt as inherently predatory, I get it. I don't agree -credit is useful as long as used responsibly. It's how most of us get a home and a car.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2021, 02:11 AM   #10
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31į57'S 115į57'E
Posts: 17,816
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Except the reality is that it encourages people to buy **** they can't afford, getting in arrears, then being caught in a debt trap of high default interest and fees. It's clearly hurting people.
We should make credit difficult to obtain because some people can't handle it? That's Nanny State type thinking.

Almost every activity can involve people who are so stupid that they can't handle it without harming themselves. That is not a reason why the government should micro manage every aspect of our lives.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2021, 03:01 AM   #11
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 29,890
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
We should make credit difficult to obtain because some people can't handle it? That's Nanny State type thinking.
Huh.

I missed the memo about there being no welfare system, credit legislation or labour laws in Australia. I'll make a note.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2021, 12:31 AM   #12
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,551
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
That's exactly why it's predatory - looks great, no cost, no credit checks! What could possibly go wrong?

Except the reality is that it encourages people to buy **** they can't afford,
So do credit cards, and advertising. But that's not the worst of it. Our entire economy is built on the principle of buying **** we can't afford.

We can't afford to pump 36 billion tons of CO2 a year in the atmosphere, and we can't afford to dump 2 billion tons of waste per year either. But it's buy now, pay later where the environment is concerned. And we are way behind on our payments. Expect severe penalties!

Quote:
Almost every activity can involve people who are so stupid that they can't handle it without harming themselves. That is not a reason why the government should micro manage every aspect of our lives.
Especially when your government also involves people who are so stupid that they can't handle it without harming themselves everyone.
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Economics, Business and Finance

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:12 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.