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Old 20th May 2020, 06:07 AM   #3281
Darat
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No need to over-think things.


Jacob Rees-Mogg mentioned standing six feet apart on PMQs. Now we all understand what six feet is without a second thought.

Two metres, and you have to think, ah, two yards or two times three feet, to get the idea.

Six feet is a measure people can immediately visualise, whether it be height of fence, height of man, length of win, or paced steps across a room to calculate apx area.

It is all very simple!
Only for old people - apart from miles kids and anyone under the age of what now 45 thinks in terms of metric units. And only a statistical insignificant number of those would be able to tell you how many yards are in a mile.

And being a transitional I can use yards or metres but metres is always my prefered unit.
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Old 20th May 2020, 06:11 AM   #3282
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And being a transitional I can use yards or metres but metres is always my prefered unit.
Since I wouldn't bother expecting an accuracy better than about 10% when estimating distances, I tend not to bother which I use.

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Old 20th May 2020, 06:20 AM   #3283
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No need to over-think things.


Jacob Rees-Mogg mentioned standing six feet apart on PMQs. Now we all understand what six feet is without a second thought.

Two metres, and you have to think, ah, two yards or two times three feet, to get the idea.

Six feet is a measure people can immediately visualise, whether it be height of fence, height of man, length of win, or paced steps across a room to calculate apx area.

It is all very simple!
I propose we use English cubits. 6 feet = 4 cubits.
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Old 20th May 2020, 06:38 AM   #3284
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I propose we use English cubits. 6 feet = 4 cubits.
Yeah, they're really handy for when you need to calculate to base 4.5.

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Old 20th May 2020, 06:52 AM   #3285
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Yeah, they're really handy for when you need to calculate to base 4.5.

Dave
It's convenient when you need to calculate the volume of, say, a body of water that's 6 feet x 4 cubits x 1 fathom.
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Old 20th May 2020, 07:04 AM   #3286
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
It's convenient when you need to calculate the volume of, say, a body of water that's 6 feet x 4 cubits x 1 fathom.
I make that 611.7 hectare-microns.

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Old 20th May 2020, 07:25 AM   #3287
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I make that 611.7 hectare-microns.

Dave
Decimal fractions are a continental perversion.

Last edited by shuttlt; 20th May 2020 at 07:29 AM.
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Old 20th May 2020, 08:17 AM   #3288
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
Cuneiform numerals are super simple.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylo...iform_numerals

This system is referred to as "base 60", but it's really not. Numbers up to 60 are really represented by a mixture of base 6 and base 10 numerals. These are alternated in a repeating fashion, forming a sort of super-structure of base 60, but it directly decomposes into alternating 6-10 base. It's not a true base 60 where there are 60 unique characters.
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Old 20th May 2020, 08:45 AM   #3289
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Two metres, and you have to think, ah, two yards or two times three feet, to get the idea.
Do I? Gosh. Here's me been using metres since the 70's and I still have to do that? Shame on me.
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Old 20th May 2020, 09:06 AM   #3290
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Quite.
There are plenty of jobs that the employer cannot afford to pay high wages, and the current wages are not sufficient for the local workforce to want to do the job (either by the nature of the job, or how things like benefits work, or a mix).
What should really happen in these cases is that the business should pass along the higher cost to it’s customers. If the customers refuse to pay more for the product, then it was inherently low value to begin with and is makes sense to abandon it in favor of producing something of higher value.
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Old 20th May 2020, 09:12 AM   #3291
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
What should really happen in these cases is that the business should pass along the higher cost to it’s customers. If the customers refuse to pay more for the product, then it was inherently low value to begin with and is makes sense to abandon it in favor of producing something of higher value.
I always figure that if your business doesn't make enough money to pay your essential employees enough to live on you literally don't have a business, you have a charity masquerading as a business.

I'll except early startups from this. Maybe.
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Old 20th May 2020, 09:37 AM   #3292
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I have zero problems calculating the metric scale. Although the four-minute mile sounds so much less romantic when put in metres. Who cares about an odd couple of inches or centimetres when judging social distance?
Great. I work with ease with both. Now what are the advantages of imperial measure over metric.

Or shall we start posting speed limits on the road in units of furlongs per fortnight? That is a perfectly valid imperial unit of speed.
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Old 20th May 2020, 10:11 AM   #3293
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I always figure that if your business doesn't make enough money to pay your essential employees enough to live on you literally don't have a business, you have a charity masquerading as a business.



I'll except early startups from this. Maybe.
A lot of this relies on "rational actors" though. Not referring to your perspective exclusively, mind you.

I have caught glimpses of this mythical creature on occasion in the wild. The bulk of my experience with them is only in clinical settings :9.

I like trash/sanitation as a go-to example of how disconnected we are from giving fair approximation of value to the service.

Giant trucks squeezing down tightly packed old residential streets. People performing enormous feats of athletic prowess for hours on end (that would have most Americans wheezing with chest pains in 10 minutes). Then an entire reclamation plant process that absolutely involves material physics and biological sciences.

I'm not saying the entry level needs a degree. But certainly a healthy respect for the processes on par with a research assistant doing data entry.

Do they know what it means or how to interpret it? Perhaps not.

Should they be able to adhere to process, exercise care in accuracy, maybe form an intuitive sense of patterns leading true or false? Absolutely.

Even high cost of living areas the average seems to be about $40/mo. (£32.68) per family to stick 2 bags of solid waste on the curb every week and never worry about it again.

Calculate your own time in sorting the trash into a dozen groupings, hauling it to a dump, checking in on the scales, proceeding around the facility to the dozen piles, checking back out on on the scales, and returning home.

Let's say it's half the cost that way. $20/mo (£16.34). Assume a month of your trash, how long will what I described above take you?

At 2.5 hours, you're getting down to minimum wage territory already.

End result: One has to assume their own time and resources worthless in order to declare the same of someone else's.

ETA: sorry for the U.S. figures in a U.K. discussion, I've added appropriate currency equivalents. Our federal minimum wage is $7.25 (£5.92). High cost of living areas are around $11/hr. (£9)

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 20th May 2020 at 10:46 AM.
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Old 20th May 2020, 03:08 PM   #3294
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Because you end up with a long string of decimal points!

Imagine if time was decimalised. 12:37 would become a nightmare 12.616666666666.

That depends on how much precision you are after. 12.62 hours is plenty good if all you are after is the nearest minute.

If you want seconds then even with HMS you still need to add two more digits. And to get beyond that you have to switch to decimal anyway.

************************************************

Consider 'seasonal hours'. The day has twenty four hours. Sunrise to sunset gets twelve of them. Sunset to sunrise gets the other twelve.

Yes. The hours were different lengths depending on the time of year, and the length of an hour was rarely the same at night as it was in the daytime.

And yet, this was the system that entire cultures used for many generations, and it really hasn't been all that long since it fell out of favor completely.

That's just one example. It's all a matter of what you are used to.
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Old 21st May 2020, 01:06 AM   #3295
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
What should really happen in these cases is that the business should pass along the higher cost to it’s customers. If the customers refuse to pay more for the product, then it was inherently low value to begin with and is makes sense to abandon it in favor of producing something of higher value.
Except all UK governments want a degree of food production.

We either bin our food production and simply, as you imply, produce high end food only (or change land use entirely) and import everything we really eat, or possibly reduce our food standards...which is something the current government seems hell-bent on forcing on us when it comes to a US deal.

The next couple of years will be interesting for farming.
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Old 21st May 2020, 02:41 AM   #3296
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Net migration to the UK from countries outside the European Union has risen to its highest level for 45 years, the Office for National Statistics says.

Figures show an estimated 282,000 more non-EU citizens came to the UK than left in 2019, the highest since the information was first gathered in 1975.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52752656

So much for leaving the EU reducing immigration.
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Old 21st May 2020, 03:20 AM   #3297
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Net migration to the UK from countries outside the European Union has risen to its highest level for 45 years, the Office for National Statistics says.

Figures show an estimated 282,000 more non-EU citizens came to the UK than left in 2019, the highest since the information was first gathered in 1975.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52752656

So much for leaving the EU reducing immigration.
Yes, but now we've left the EU we can control those non-EU migrants as opposed to when we were in the EU and we were compelled to have open borders with every country.
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Old 21st May 2020, 07:03 AM   #3298
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In among all the usual stupidity about sinking boats with asylum seekers trying to cross the channel I am starting to see a lot of twitter threads criticising the RNLI for rescuing asylum seekers from boats.

Typical comments this morning

"The RNLI should be disbanded as they're acting like a taxi service for illegal immigrants"

"The RNLI are aiding and abetting criminals who are trying to illegally enter our country"

"RNLI should be prosecuted for aiding and abetting criminals who are illegally entering our country".

"The RNLI are a registered charity I would urge people not to donate anymore."

"The RNLI traitors are still escorting dinghies and boats full of illegal immigrants into our country"

"RNLI Treason! Boycott the RNLI, govt should act"
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Old 21st May 2020, 07:26 AM   #3299
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
In among all the usual stupidity about sinking boats with asylum seekers trying to cross the channel I am starting to see a lot of twitter threads criticising the RNLI for rescuing asylum seekers from boats.

<snipped horrible comments>
That's why I give Twitter a wide berth (and why I used to give certain pubs and individuals a wide berth).
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Old 21st May 2020, 07:29 AM   #3300
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That reads like a mix of morons and Russians...
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Old 21st May 2020, 08:52 AM   #3301
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Net migration to the UK from countries outside the European Union has risen to its highest level for 45 years, the Office for National Statistics says.

Figures show an estimated 282,000 more non-EU citizens came to the UK than left in 2019, the highest since the information was first gathered in 1975.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52752656

So much for leaving the EU reducing immigration.
This was always going to be the irony of "Brexit for Racists", we'll be exchanging those most culturally and superficially similar to ourselves for the very people they really object to. You can only assume they thought Canadians, Aussies and Kiwis would flood here?
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Old 21st May 2020, 04:13 PM   #3302
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Net migration to the UK from countries outside the European Union has risen to its highest level for 45 years, the Office for National Statistics says.

Figures show an estimated 282,000 more non-EU citizens came to the UK than left in 2019, the highest since the information was first gathered in 1975.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52752656

So much for leaving the EU reducing immigration.
Isn't that expected. If it's clear the UK is going to restrict immigration then those who might want to come to the UK some time in the future will stop dithering and make the move while it's still possible.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 07:26 AM   #3303
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Very late reply to this
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Priti Patel has announced that if you earn under £25,600 you're basically unskilled, a second class citizen and of no value to society.
My daughter doesn't earn that much. She has a degree in biomedical sciences and works for the NHS.

She is part of the overworked team checking samples for covid 19.

The gap between the real world and what some politicians believe it to be is astounding.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 07:52 AM   #3304
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Originally Posted by Greebo View Post
Very late reply to thisMy daughter doesn't earn that much. She has a degree in biomedical sciences and works for the NHS.

She is part of the overworked team checking samples for covid 19.

The gap between the real world and what some politicians believe it to be is astounding.

It’s OK, that had already been replied to:
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
This view of the world seems to be purely left wing.

If you are only commanding £25,600, society has already passed what ever judgement there may be to pass. By definition the role is not one with a labour shortage and a high demand for the work to be performed. If you are going to have any sort of needs based immigration model, surely people with skills that are not in demand are the people not to bring in. There is no moral judgement about your worth as a person, or your skill level or anything else.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 08:04 AM   #3305
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Last time I checked there were tens of thousands of vacancies for care workers in the UK. Mostly minimum wage jobs.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 08:21 AM   #3306
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Last time I checked there were tens of thousands of vacancies for care workers in the UK. Mostly minimum wage jobs.

Those will be fine as long as they all guarantee to work 57-hour weeks.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 09:33 AM   #3307
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Last time I checked there were tens of thousands of vacancies for care workers in the UK. Mostly minimum wage jobs.
But under capitalism I thought hard to fill jobs attracted more money? Why don't care workers earn more than MPs, every election theres multiple candudates for every position there? Anyone would think reality doesn't match the theory but that can't be right...
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Old 23rd May 2020, 01:52 PM   #3308
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
But under capitalism I thought hard to fill jobs attracted more money? Why don't care workers earn more than MPs, every election theres multiple candudates for every position there? Anyone would think reality doesn't match the theory but that can't be right...
Your understanding of capitalism must be shallow indeed.

It's hard to fill those jobs because it doesn't pay a lot, because the system can't support paying care workers a lot. It would be easy to fill the jobs if the pay was high, but there's not enough money available to make that happen. The fact that it's a low skill job also helps keep wages down.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 02:18 PM   #3309
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Only for old people - apart from miles kids and anyone under the age of what now 45 thinks in terms of metric units. And only a statistical insignificant number of those would be able to tell you how many yards are in a mile.

And being a transitional I can use yards or metres but metres is always my prefered unit.
Yup. Or anyone who has been in any hardware store over the last 30 years.
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Old 25th May 2020, 04:02 AM   #3310
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Yup. Or anyone who has been in any hardware store over the last 30 years.
I as taught metric but real life used imperial, so I was mostly confused. I prefer metric though as it's less confusing and, IMO, the lauded "You can divide by lots of different numbers" is mostly unnecassary as rounding off to the nearest mm, 5g or 5ml is accurate enough for almost all everyday waork.
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Old 25th May 2020, 04:21 AM   #3311
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As an aside to the imperial vs metric discussion I'd like to mention the so-called "descriptive" chess notation system which was in use in English speaking countries for far too long. It was still in use in in the eighties, when it was finally abandoned for the much more sensible algebraic notation which was of course invented by the germans a hundred years before the brits finally relented..

Example:

Kkt-KB3 (descriptive notation)
Nf3 (algebraic)
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Old 25th May 2020, 04:22 AM   #3312
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double

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Old 27th May 2020, 07:32 AM   #3313
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https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/ne...andemic/26/05/

Quote:
The most important farming legislation in generations passed its third reading in parliament despite warnings that in a bid to make the UK market pliable for a post-Brexit US trade deal, protections of minimum food safety standards have evaporated, as have safeguards for Britain’s farmers.
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Old 27th May 2020, 08:00 AM   #3314
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Well, there goes a chunk of the economy here in Herefordshire.
And the tossers will still give that arse Bill Wiggin one of the largest majorities in the country...
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Old 27th May 2020, 08:05 AM   #3315
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
I'm shocked, shocked I tell you

Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Well, there goes a chunk of the economy here in Herefordshire.
And the tossers will still give that arse Bill Wiggin one of the largest majorities in the country...
Yes, somehow the farmers will find a way to blame the EU and/or the Labour party and not Brexiteers and the Tory party.
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Old 27th May 2020, 08:10 AM   #3316
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Jacob Rees-Mogg mentioned standing six feet apart on PMQs. Now we all understand what six feet is without a second thought.
The over-sixties perhaps. The rest of us use the Metric system, or rather the SI.
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Old 27th May 2020, 08:12 AM   #3317
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Now what are the advantages of imperial measure over metric.
It appeals to the Little Englanders.
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Old 27th May 2020, 08:14 AM   #3318
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
In among all the usual stupidity about sinking boats with asylum seekers trying to cross the channel I am starting to see a lot of twitter threads criticising the RNLI for rescuing asylum seekers from boats.

Typical comments this morning

"The RNLI should be disbanded as they're acting like a taxi service for illegal immigrants"

"The RNLI are aiding and abetting criminals who are trying to illegally enter our country"

"RNLI should be prosecuted for aiding and abetting criminals who are illegally entering our country".

"The RNLI are a registered charity I would urge people not to donate anymore."

"The RNLI traitors are still escorting dinghies and boats full of illegal immigrants into our country"

"RNLI Treason! Boycott the RNLI, govt should act"
And yet if I organised the rounding up of such people and had them dropped into the Atlantic I'd be the bad person...
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 27th May 2020, 08:16 AM   #3319
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I'm shocked, shocked I tell you



Yes, somehow the farmers will find a way to blame the EU and/or the Labour party and not Brexiteers and the Tory party.
Actually, I don't think it matters.

Lots of MPs who made noise about this being a bad idea before the election voted cheerfully for it now.

People have short memories. They'll have forgotten about it the next time Boris has to hide in a fridge.
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Old 27th May 2020, 08:21 AM   #3320
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
No, I'm not. there may be a similar footnote there, but I am definitely remembering the section in "Green & Pleasant Land" which I read some time before "Good Omens" was written.
It does sound like something Marcus Rowland would write and he contributed to GAPL/
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